[Basic]: Be Nice Mafia

[Sili Quirrels]

okay.

 

i'm letting thane breathe because i'm not sure if he's mafia yet.

[Sili Quirrels]

he probably isn't i guess.

[Thane Vakarian]

ah ok.

 

By what you hint, jmm, you're valuable to town.... if i can understand that, so can the wolves.

 

UNVOTE

 

i'll chance it this time.

 

How do you feel about Clov?

[Thane Vakarian]

he probably isn't i guess.

i'm indeed not one of the wolves

[Sili Quirrels]

good. i'll take your word for it then.

[jmm]

Neutral leaning very slight town.  Good first impression but nothing solid at the moment - I'm okay with setting Clov to the side for the moment. 

[Thane Vakarian]

i dunno... i'm more leaning him towards the wolfy side.... I can't really say why, it just makes more sense in my head if he's a wolf this game. I've crossed off people i see as town (or explain why they shouldn(t be lynched, like you) and i can't clear him as town.... either he's a wolf, either i'm terrible at reading him.

 

i'll go with a [v]no lynch[/v]

 

we're not many, so we can't really botch D1. A night further, and things may look clearer.

[jmm]

[v]No lynch[/v]

[Sili Quirrels]

sounds good [v]no lynch[/v]

[Sili Quirrels]

oops. [unvote]

[v]no lynch[/v]

[Yates]

Catching up now but needed to make sure this was covered...

Vig/Doc/Cop?

No way. I don't think 5/8 roles are going to be PR/Scum. Plus, I would never put vig in an 8 person game. Mislynch and Town shot = game over on N1. I, personally, wouldn't go through the hassle of designing a game and sitting in a queue for half a year knowing it could all be over in one night. The villagers would have pitch forks!

[Thane Vakarian]

the only role i could see is perhaps a cop-like role.

[Yates]

EBWOP: okay. That was the mafia equivalent of the "screw/marry/kill" game. Carry on!

[Yates]

No way I'm responding to these huge walls.

 

Long story short;

- Sili is probably Town [bFG is on the money with 294 - but you have to let him get rustled to see it raw].

- JMM is probably scum [sili's meta argument in 264 is also on the money].

- Cass is probably N1 kill [strongest consensus Town read unless I missed a PR hint that wasn't JMM scum trying to work out of a lynch].

- I'm still looking for that Thane volume.

- Tress is precariously close to becoming a dark green for me as well [making it Cass, Clov, Tress - Sili is green].

- Lynch in JMM/Thane/BFG [sili as last resort] and I think this game is won.

[Niniel]

VC

 

Sili (1) - Cass

No lynch (4) - Clov, Thane, jmm, Sili

 

Not voting: Yates, Tress, BFG

 

 

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch. 

 

It´s Day 1. Day ends Saturday 9 PM CET. (GMT + 1)  That is 5 hours and 36 minutes from now. 

 

http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20150110T21&p0=239&msg=DAY+ONE+DEADLINE&csz=1&swk=1

[Niniel]

A warning: I´m out in the countryside and it´s snowing a lot (Yay!), which means that internet might disappear. If it does, I´ll get here as soon as I can. It might not be a problem, you never now out here.

[Yates]

We are at L-1 for those of you keeping score back home.

 

@Tress, BFG, Cass - will any of you be on in about 5 hours to vote No Lynch so we can continue our D1 conversation? I'm leaving in about an hour. If I haven't seen anything, I'll hammer.

[Songstress]

Just woke up. Need coffee.

[Yates]

I just came in to vote...

[BFG]

Good afternoon, back earlier than expected :)

[Cass]

JMM ISO - PART ONE

 

 

Independent posts by him and his direct interactions with others, with my thoughts/replies below in blue. 

 

 

 

 

Greetings and salutations, fellow ponies. 

-----------------

This is the extent of my MLP knowledge: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zHZj8Xp-Ik

Null, although I'll admit I still haven't watched the video   *g* 

 

Experienced mafia-ers: 

With 8 are we looking at 2 or 1 mafia probably? 

As before - pretty much completely null for me because i) I Was thinking of asking the same question, and ii) the order of words makes sense to me if a)he thought 2 was the most likely answer and b) you read/understand 'probably' as 'most likely'.

 

 

 

 

So, SIli.... how is JMM your scum suspect? you doubt he genuinly asks a question and throws a decoy question to get towncred?

 

@jmm: how many games have you played?

I've only been in one forum mafia game before, and that was the recent town victory in Tress' game.  In that game I was town innocent child. 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/91898-basicstandard-a-wind-in-the-door-mafia-game-over-town-wins/

 

Thanks for the link. What's an innocent child?

 

Ok, i'll keep it in mind. Welcome to DM mafia then!

 

I'll check the game if i can, but i prefer to start every game new. People can change from game to game. 

 

Truth.  I am very much taking that mindset, especially with Sili, since I tunneled him for a while last game  

I can totally understand tunneling Sili

but I still don't really understand why you tunneling him in a game where he was scum would make you wary of tunneling him in this one. This is probably the only thing that strikes me as 'highly' scummy in your actions/posts so far.

 

Re my initial question: I know 8 is a bit of an awkward number as far as mafia is concerned - you could easily have two or one mafia in the game and no one would bat an eyelash.  However, one mafia seems more unfair to the mafia than two seems to the town, so since two seemed more likely to me, I put it first.  I'll admit, it was an interesting phrasing of the question.  

Your explanation is in line with the way I was thinking, and makes sense to me so this comes off fairly positive/null. The tone read I get from the choice of the word 'interesting' makes me feel uneasy though, kind of like you were proud of the way it was worded initially. Was this (the initial wording) intentional or accidental?

 

 

 

Lol, mixed reads on pretty much everyone at the moment.

Jmm how much of you play in your last game was influenced by being an IC?

I'd be lying if I said my play wasn't affected a little, but it was only a little. 

 

I haven't read too much past the beginning of that game and the beginning of the ISO Sili linked, but how would you say your play was affected, and how would you expect your play to be different in this game as i)Mafia and ii)Town?

 

 

 

 

Re my initial question: I know 8 is a bit of an awkward number as far as mafia is concerned - you could easily have two or one mafia in the game and no one would bat an eyelash.  However, one mafia seems more unfair to the mafia than two seems to the town, so since two seemed more likely to me, I put it first.  I'll admit, it was an interesting phrasing of the question.

Is it possible there are three scum, like you intoned might be the case?

 

Not sure where I intoned this, or why anyone would think there are 3 mafia in this game.  That would be silly. 

 

 

Sorry, this is a nice game, and that post could be misconstrued as being not nice - I meant to say having 3 mafia out of 8 players would be silly, not that you are being silly.  You are being sili. 

I grinned at this, even though I didn't read your initial reply as 'being not nice', since I also couldn't see where you apparently intoned there were 3 scum/also think 3 mafia would be silly.

 

 

Initial (obviously weak) leans:

BFG: Town
Sili: Town

Thane: ?Town
Clov: ?Town
Tress: ?Mafia
Yates: ?Mafia
Cass: Mafia

Again, before you freak out, these are very initial, based largely on feel and some are likely to change.  

I did 'freak out' (or at least, 'stressed') slightly about this, despite your disclaimer. I've mentioned it before, but even IRL I really hate it when I get misunderstood - especially when the misunderstanding aligns me with something unsavoury (in this case, scum). I put a lot of effort into interaction/collaboration and communicating my thought process as clearly and as transparently as possible on everything I say (and I very openly invite people to bring up stuff they don't understand so I can try again if something doesn't quite make sense) in order to avoid being read incorrectly. At this point I didn't understand your read of me. I see the logic of your point somewhat when you explain later, but still, I just can't help it, this stings lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't associate town Thane with 'guarded' play or words...

Welp. That's the one tell I was hinting at in my Thane post.

What do you make of the fact that Sili is talking to you as if he knows you are Town given your [and his] statement here???

 

<<<deleted>>>

His latest post:

 

Truth. I am very much taking that mindset, especially with Sili, since I tunneled him for a while last game 

like, he knows i'm town, otherwise the matter of tunneling me when I'm scum wouldn't be significant to him. Why not tunnel me again, right?

 

Good point, and quoted again so he doesn't miss it.

 

I find it quite curious that Sili only has one vote given that so many people are finding him scummy, but I don't know what to make of it given the size of the game, I think I'll need to sleep on it.

Curious? Couple of thoughts here:
1. Just because Sili is holding a fork, it doesn't mean he stole the cake.
2. It's WAY early in the game.
3. Curse of the small game. I think people tend to be more cautious with votes in small games.

Now I have a Sili-BFG relationship to resolve...

 

Lol, it's actually his least reliable tell (but sorry), according to Tommy Thane was able to fake looseness and tone for a game (of course Tommy was possibly mafia in the game he said that - soon after SpaceBalls), so not sure how reliable an indication this actually is) there are other tells. He's sort of borderline for me so far.

Because Sili had a good point. Which Jmm still hasn't answered. Jmm tunnelled Silo (his words) in a game where Sili was mafia, why would he worry about that?

I find Sili very hard to read, and I typically read him scummy, this game his early involvement is in line with his town game, however he makes so many 'weird' statements and his opinion changes with the wind (if it wasn't the wrong author 'words are wind' would describe him well :) but that describes both mafia and town game) that it's hard to have faith n the read.


You played with Jmm last game? What's your opinion of him this game? Same to Tress who nodded that game and anyone else who played it.

 

 

Because I believe he's town this game.  He's doing a really nice job differentiating his playstyle from last game, and the vibe I'm getting is good. 

 

All you've said here is that you think Sili is Town this game. As far as I can figure out, this doesn't answer why you'd be worried about having tunneled him in a previous game where he was scum. Still the only real sticking point for me so far. 

 

 

 

 

 

Initial (obviously weak) leans:

BFG: Town
Sili: Town

Thane: ?Town
Clov: ?Town
Tress: ?Mafia
Yates: ?Mafia
Cass: Mafia

Again, before you freak out, these are very initial, based largely on feel and some are likely to change.  

 

My feelings on disclaimers aside...

 

Can you talk on the Cass read?  I'm taking the question marks on several of us to mean they're more iffy/in between, which suggests that Cass is a more confident read.  I think she's showing the most effort at really trying to understand where people are coming from and make sense of things.  That's incredibly hard to fake IMO.  

 

What's off to you?

 

 

 

Cass is putting in a bunch of work, which is a good thing. 

My beef is that she came out really excited and happy, which feels like a coverup for a scum draw.  There were also a few early mentions of her being town.  
 

 

 

None! I'm still (somewhat nervously) awaiting my first rand as scum... For now I'm honestly still quite happy to just keep being Town and keep learning/figuring out how to solve the puzzles!!

 

TBH though Sili, I find this question slightly odd coming from you, considering that you've played both of the two only 'extended' games I've been in and I mentioned this in the sign up thread when Tina asked if I'd played before. You should already know that I've only been Town...

 

Even though you say you've got me as Town, my gut's wondering if you're trying to set me up as scum... Yes, it's early and I may already have a habit of always reading you as scum, but still...

 

I like my gut *g*

 

You wilfing against me again?

 

@ Clov - Just that it was odd that he would 'call' me Town 'like everyone else' but do it in a way that casts doubt/insinuates that I might be different from the others he listed...

 

Kinda feels like the same as my first game where the Scum mostly said 'I have her as Town,' and then carefully insinuated it was possible I could be Scum because it was plausible that I could be being helped. The doubt that move cast over the rest of Town haunted/followed me for the whole freaking game.

 

I feel like it was a search for something similar to push against me in this game: 'I have her as Town, BUT she could be pulling the wool over your eyes/could be Scum now because even though she's fairly new, she's had experience being Scum before...'

 

Since I know I'm Town again (and probably also because I'm once bitten, twice shy) it pings/makes me wary.

 

Does that make any sense? (I'm typing this on phone whilst trying not to ignore the toddler - let me know if doesn't)

 

Also, you read the last game, right? Do you think something different??

 

@ Sili - Do you have links to a recent Town game at all?

 

Going out to lunch/running errands now, back tonight when the kid's in bed - GL!

It could also be I've never played with her before and she's also super bubbly, but it feels off right now. 

 

 

I don't like that you've got 'beef' with me, but you've explained your reasons and I don't see anything that links your read with scum. In the interests of trying to make you feel more at ease:

 

- I was/am really 'excited/happy' to play, and that's just naturally me, and not by any means a 'coverup for a scum draw'. To explain why, as best as I am able, so far mafia is the perfect challenge/entertainment for me/my personality (ENFP if you're familiar with Myers-Briggs) and it makes me stupidly happy. I'm a 'people person' and the things in life that really make me tick are languages/communication, mental challenge and figuring people out. So so far this game of 'analyse-interactions-between-people-to-catch-out-lying-scum-and-then-communicate-clearly-enough-in-a-space-where-people-are-naturally-paranoid-in-order-to-successfully-get-them-lynched' is all my favourite brain things, all rolled into one. I may be slightly crazy (and I think the in-game paranoia drives me moreso!!), but I honestly do love it  . Tress, Thane, Yates and Sili have played here with me before so can probably back me up that the way I'm playing here is the same as the way I played before; and further to that Thane, BFG and Tress have all had interactions with me in other areas of DM or on Skype/FB etc and can probably back me up on my explanation of my general 'excited/happy/loves a challenge/communication/people' type personality.

 

-The 'few early mentions of me being Town' are part of my explanations, rather than hints/pushes at my alignment. As far as I am concerned, it is completely pointless to say "I'm not scum/I'm Town" - at any point of the game for the purposes of trying to get people to clear you. For me, saying "Because I'm Town" or "Knowing I am Town" is more an explanation of my thought process/logic than anything else. Me being Town is the only thing I can be certain of at any point in this game (unless someone's 'Seer Cleared'), so I tend to use it as a measuring tool to test the logic/interactions of others against me. I don't expect anyone to believe that I am Town just because I've said it. I hope that that makes sense.

 

 

 

[Cass]

JMM ISO - PART TWO

 

Again, game-relevant opinions in blue. 

 

 

 

dang I tried to copy paste some quotes and failed epically.

Always sucks

 

The more I read back through this thread, the more I don't want to lynch Sili.  My impression each time I read through is more and more not-scum.  If he flips scum, I will tip my hat to him, but I doubt he will.  However, those of you with suspicions on him are justified; I can see where you're coming from, but I can't say I agree. 

I find this interesting, especially considering how much he's been pushing against you over (what I've perceived) as relatively little. My impression is that he has stepped up his effort at explaining things, but that he still comes across as scum for certain inconsistencies and things he's said (as per the WoT). Not saying this makes you scummy, but I'll definitely watch this space.

 

 

I'm going to say this once:

You will not be happy with the result if you lynch me. 

Even though I know I have to count it as null, posts like this bug the bejeeebers out of me   ! Just saying.

 

 

 

you're so confusing jmm. should i be townreading you? i dunno.

By my play style?  Probably not.  

 

The tone in this actually does rub me the wrong way. I'm not a fan of the 'play style' you're displaying to here, and in general I'm not a fan of townreading anyone (how could you ever possibly be certain of someone being Town? If someone looks Town, they're either Town or Mafia doing a good job of pretending to be Town - and it's too easy to incorrectly clear someone/be suckered in. I prefer to look for scum - much harder to be fooled by scummy inconsistencies. If someone looks Scummy, stands to reason that they are, as why would Town ever want to look like Scum?). But still, given that I think good communication/collaboration/explanation is effectively the key to help Town catch out scum and win the game, I don't like the way you answered. Again, watching this space  .

 

 

 

jmm, then tell us this: Who should we lynch? Deadline is soon, and i'm willing to listen

I'm leaning towards the no-lynch crowd for logical reasons.  

However, force me to make a lynch, and I'm going back to my list of current mafia suspects:
 

• Cass
• Tress
• Yates

 

Cass initially topped my list as far as suspicion went, but something does not feel right any more.  It probably has to do with a significant amount of more experienced people putting a good word in for her current play.  I would feel more comfortable lynching one of the other two.  I am pretty confident I've got one in those two, for overall tonal reasons and most of their post content has been rather neutral so far.  

 

Tone in this seems fine, although I'd be happier if you were reading me better of your own accord, obviously. 

 

 

Work and some evening activities gets me during the week, but trust me when I've said I've read every post multiple times.  I lurk a lot, and tend not to make too many posts unless someone directly asks a question or if I feel I've got something rather important to share.  I do throw out my thoughts at some point to show I'm actually reading, because I understand this is a hands-on game, so I try to put some out there instead of just lurking all the time.

 

I understand the logic of what your saying, but tbh I personally don't like this style of play. As far as I can see, whilst it is still very plausible to play this way and be Town, the benefits of playing this way are better for Mafia than Town. It could be because this style (non-explanatory except at a pinch/very deliberately without personality/tone) is so different to me own, but I find it very hard to understand from the POV of Town. I concede that because it's controversial it might be useful to Town in garnering reactions, but there are other ways to do that whilst collaborating freely if you're Town. 

 

It's the implications of this style if you're Mafia that worry me the most. I see that minimum-interaction/sticking-to-the-bare-bones as potential ploy to remove the 'fluff' of intentions/motivation from your play, effectively giving Town less material to work with/catch you out on if you're Scum - we may not like/be comfortable about the way you post, but it's likely for the most part (IMO) that this alone won't be enough to lynch you for - for a reasonably long time. Unless you do something really outright scummy, I see you being able to coast by in an uneasy sort of clear and it makes me uncomfortable, same as if you were completely lurking. I'm not saying that I've seen much to indicate that you are playing scum (I haven't), but I am saying that I think this play style is more indicative/likely to benefit Scum than Town. Which is why I'm wary.

 

 

In a nutshell, I find jmm's actions/logic mostly 'clean' so far. I'm watching interactions between him and Sili in particular and I am very, very wary of his play style in general as I feel it's more indicative of Scum than Town. 

 

*End WoT*.

[BFG]

 

Cass, I agree with the caveat that quality is subjective.

 

The majority of things you've posted are within his town range or at least not outside it as far as I can tell, the fact that he's engaging with the thread (and the amount he's doing so) is outside of the mafia range I have for him (although I don't think the game I'm basing that off is necessarily a good analogue for his mafia game). You've pointed out a few things that I view as mafia indicative, especially for tonal players, I don't have time now, but when I'm back later I'll grab them. I wanted to last night, but lol internet :/

 

Overall I'm leaning town, especially given his more recent posting, but I don't have a huge amount of confidence in the read yet.

 

I'm out for the day on a field trip, but I'll be back before deadline and will vote, I'll be musing throughout the day :)

 

Ok :) I don't necessarily agree (or have enough of my own 'meta' on Sili to compare) but I can follow the logic of your post easy enough, so thanks for explaining clearly *tentative smile* 

 

The stuff in bold is stuff that makes me nervous - both on the possibility that if your current 'lean' is right then I'm so completely wrong and for the possibility that if I'm right I can't verify how much of this opinion is true and how much of it is cover. This game does my head in!! *g*

(I still love it!)

 

 

Actually, I understand you're out, but if you get the chance before EoD - what Town and mafia ranges do you have for Sili?

 

Honestly not great :/ but last game we were in I read him like this (inconsistency, seemingly random reads that change quickly and rapidly) and he flipped town. When he subbed in he was far less engaged objectively speaking. He didn't engage at all in the Wind in the Door game, although I think that would probably be a low point in his career.

 

This game he's engaged in a way I haven't seen him replicate as mafia yet. Additionally some of your points read differently to me as for once I was able to have in thread interaction.

[Cass]

Gah for crappy spoilers!! Sorry!

 

Ok, that took longer than intended, will get back to catching up on recent specifics/things I pulled out during re-reads (not limited to specific players). Am rushing due to limited time and desire to go to bed (*cough4amcough*) - if something I say raises questions/suspicion just let me know. 

 

 

There are holes and redirections and misrepresentations but i really like the tone.

Will go in to more detail later

I still don't get this, and it's bugging me. What was this all about??

 

[Cass]

 

Like yates to be town?

Jmm is a good bet

 

And yet at this point voting Yates.