[Standard] 11/10 Top Tier Vanilla+ Game Thread

[Pralaya]

  On 11/13/2014 at 6:38 PM, Stelio Kontos said:

I'm all for content oriented and rarely off topic, and I'm all for not spamming, but, there's a difference between that and not posting at all for a day-plus.

 

Regardless, you have ample opportunity the next few hours to do enough to no get lynched since it's a mix of "the guy you subbed in for was kinda wolfy" and "not posting" -- it seems like posting some decent thoughts should cross off both those objections.

 

You're going to be held to the "I post more on d2" standard by the

Yeah, about that. It is 1 AM here and I am almost going to sleep, lol.

 

I gave my current a few posts back and that is where I am.

[Nynaeve]

  On 11/13/2014 at 6:48 PM, Despothera said:

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 6:32 PM, Nynaeve said:

I think this is hilarious, Des. Cause you're basically underestimating her and saying there's no way she could fake this as scum considering it's her first game. But the word on the street is that she's a prodigy that's gonna be upstaging us all soon, according to Kivam.... so I think I'm gonna size her up the same way I size up everyone else. ktanks.

I didn't say there was NO WAY she could fake this as scum, I just find it highly unlikely.

 

It's one thing to pick up the elements of scumhunting very quickly, quite another to be able to fake tone as scum that well imo, and do that rambling sort of thing that would be MUCH more likely to accidentally let something slip when rambling like that

 

 

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm trying not to factor that in. If she's town it will grow apparent as we get some flips and start connecting the dots.

[dicetosser1]

here madly playing catchup as it looks like DL is when i need to go to work

 

 

right now my vote is going to sili

[Kivam]

  On 11/13/2014 at 3:35 PM, Kivam said:

 

Was mid recap when DM went down.  Likely don't have time to finish them before deadline, so I'm just going to reply to a few direct questions from Cass and Andrej, then actually work for a bit; will post more if I can.

 

  Quote

 

Basically after a review, I can't help but feel that Kiv really could be scum. Like DPR, his posts in general are well placed in the context of the game, but they also have a great mix of what I'm interpreting as truth and then a twist of scum. Kiv has been doing a great job of 'buddying' me in early threads and providing distraction (especially from the heat on Yates and DPR) as well as adding in general fluff along the way. I still like his recap posts and am definitely learning useful things through them , but... they’re not really ADVANCING the game, in a sense. And it makes me wonder if this is then mostly for distraction? (Don't stop them though, Kiv, they're pretty handy for catch-ups).

 

But I've been considering that posting these recap posts would make a handy tactic from a scum view too, since it has the advantage of winning emotional thanks points from Town struggling to keep up with the flow (worked on me) and it has the advantage of being able to carefully push a bias, all with that emotional thanks on board. This strikes me as important.

 

 

Of course I could be scum, and of course the recaps are very advantageous for me as scum - like I said earlier, I play my scum and town games exactly the same way; I do recaps in each, push in each, info-lynch Day 1 in each (though I'd really rather not do that as scum, it would be way too obvious a tell to avoid it).  So you're on the right track here, thought process wise (though the conclusion happens to be off in this particular game): DO NOT TRUST ME. EVER. (yes, even when I tell you not to trust me).  Or anyone else.  Play your best game, make your best choices, but make sure that it's because they're your choices, and not just agreeing with someone you trust.

 

Back to a bit of general mafia teaching: You need to take your insight on scum play to the next level.  Do you know what a WIFOM is?  Comes from the best scene in movie history, and stands for "Wine In Front of Me":

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9TRMQwMNnY

 

Now think through what a talented scum player would do with recaps if they expect to be caught as scum and have the recaps re-read in that light.

 

Like I said, posting recaps is a null tell for me, because I do it regardless of alignment given their utility to me in either alignment.  Use them but don't trust them, and if you are ever playing a game as town when I've flipped scum, ignore them completely rather than trying to mine them for clues - because when I'm scum, I poison both the glasses

 

  Quote

 

Also, for some reason (similar to DPR) - although I feel I've been fairly active and contributing some thoughtful stuff (perhaps this is just because my brain has been going a million miles an hour on no sleep for the last however many days?),  there’s very little mentioned in Kiv's recaps about my contributions. He comments about me showing up and disappearing, and comments on things other players have said about me (and what he says in relation to these things IS true), but, after the initial buddying tone, REAL thoughts on me and what I've been putting down are missing although they're there for other players. Seems like basic misdirection.

 

Why is this commentary missing? Is it because I’m close to being on the money, and therefore safer to avoid?

 

LOL - no.  It's because I'm only up to page 37 in the recaps, and you hadn't posted any content yet.  Right now, you're playing like either a very good new mafia player as town or well coached/naturally talented scum; you are coming off as town trying hard to piece the puzzle together, which means I'll treat your thoughts the same way I'm suggesting you treat mine: I ain't gonna trust them, but I'll sure as hell use them.

 

  Quote

 

The tissues were not. They sparked my curiosity.

 

Heh.  I strongly dislike emo play for many of the same reasons I hate arguing politics with people who turn everything into a personal slap fight; it kills the debate, does nothing to advance the ball, and if left unchecked, takes all the fun out of the exercise.  (Side note - come join the convos on the D&D board ... you seem like you'd both enjoy it and be a valuable contributor).  So I tend to come down hard on it when it happens.

 

  Quote

 

Why is lynching inactive people (Praya) a better idea than going with your gut against Sili?

 

1) It's not (hence my vote on Sili after re-reviewing the recaps);

 

2) It's not about lynching an inactive, it's about lynching Arsis (who Praya replaced and who is at the heart of nearly as many interaction-webs as Sili, including some with Sili).  That Praya is relatively inactive means that if he's town, he's probably not going to be much of a contributor anyway, which mitigates the loss if he flips town.

 

  Quote

 

How did you go with your recaps - any further thoughts here?

 

Basically, pulled them together in one post, then ran "highlight all" searches in Firefox on poster names to start to map out connections.  That's what confirmed Sili for me as the top info lynch, followed by Arsis/Thane/Darthe in roughly equal proportion through pg 34.

 

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 1:15 PM, Cass said:

 

*Caught up to page 65, Post #1290**

 

RECAP OF THOUGHTS / CURRENT LEAN ON KIV (as potential SCUM).

 

Basically after a review, I can't help but feel that Kiv really could be scum. Like DPR, his posts in general are well placed in the context of the game, but they also have a great mix of what I'm interpreting as truth and then a twist of scum. Kiv has been doing a great job of 'buddying' me in early threads and providing distraction (especially from the heat on Yates and DPR) as well as adding in general fluff along the way. I still like his recap posts and am definitely learning useful things through them , but... they’re not really ADVANCING the game, in a sense. And it makes me wonder if this is then mostly for distraction? (Don't stop them though, Kiv, they're pretty handy for catch-ups).

 

But I've been considering that posting these recap posts would make a handy tactic from a scum view too, since it has the advantage of winning emotional thanks points from Town struggling to keep up with the flow (worked on me) and it has the advantage of being able to carefully push a bias, all with that emotional thanks on board. This strikes me as important.  

 

Also, for some reason (similar to DPR) - although I feel I've been fairly active and contributing some thoughtful stuff (perhaps this is just because my brain has been going a million miles an hour on no sleep for the last however many days?),  there’s very little mentioned in Kiv's recaps about my contributions. He comments about me showing up and disappearing, and comments on things other players have said about me (and what he says in relation to these things IS true), but, after the initial buddying tone, REAL thoughts on me and what I've been putting down are missing although they're there for other players. Seems like basic misdirection.

 

Why is this commentary missing? Is it because I’m close to being on the money, and therefore safer to avoid?

 

I'm not asking this just because I’m personally curious -I am curious, but it's more than that, it’s mostly because I’m a noob and therefore naturally a ‘wild card’ to the game. In my mind, it would make sense that an experienced player, whose game play relies a lot on recapping and offering opinions on things would have had more to say about the way a newbie played and where they had them in their reads – at least as often as they did for other members of the game, but quite possibly more.

 

Example of most recent recap, including questions to me at the top/in the buddying stage, and then (where evaluation of my input is concerned) nothing of value thereafter, is here.

 

On top of this, like DPR, Kiv seems to be avoiding interacting with people that are calling his allegiance into question. Example of post from AJ here. 

 

It smells like scum 

 

@KIV / EVERYONE -  Thoughts?/Rebuttals?

 

 

Some of the random things that made me suspicious. (Thoughts and questions to be answered included). Kiv, please weigh in? I think your answers to some of these are also important to the Town... 

 

 

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 9:05 PM, Kivam said:

FYI, there are a few of us basically soaking up all the oxygen right now, and I am getting very, very leery of our coasters

Coming directly after a post where you make light of random nothings and potentially go for an emotional appeal to Town by posting a pic of tissues (link)… This looked odd and has a huge possibility of Wolf to me. Because, while on the surface it is valid (I agree people, POST!), PRACTICALLY speaking, I feel like it was ultimately an attempt to change the subject. I agree with the stuff you said to Des at the end of 1101 (same link as above), but you would have said that playing either way, and that is very consistent with what I've seen of your play so far so it doesn't really worry me. The tissues were not. They sparked my curiosity. And then a convenient change of subject? It's too early for me to tackle you but ... I think I'm pinging you now too...

 

 

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 10:36 PM, Kivam said:

This is going to sound absurd but I need to reread my recaps before giving a solid answer.  My gut (which isn't so much my gut as my memory of who was defended/defending/shifted/shifting) says Sili, but it could also be Darthe or Arsis (Praya now, but since he hasn't bothered playing, it's all Arsis [in fact, if it's a close call after re-read, I may be amenable to a policy-lynch of Praya given: (a) suspicions generated by Arsis; (b) the half-remembered connections; and © the odds that if he's a townie, we wouldn't be losing anything valuable anyway]).  Other info targets would be Yates and Des, but they are lower on my list, Yates because he's probably been dealt with by too many players to provide much of a focus and Des because of the same thought process in the opposite direction; he's so all over the place that there are likely links/breadcrumbs to half the game in his posts.

Why is lynching inactive people (Praya) a better idea than going with your gut against Sili?

 

 

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 10:39 PM, Kivam said:

Crap - the problem with responding from memory and forgetting the player list.  Thane.  Thane probably slots in very high on the "info lynch" scale given the focus on him earlier and the responses to it.  Might even be the number 1 info play.  Really have to review those recaps once I get home.

The post seemed meh. Could be that I'm wondering if you and DPR are actually the number 1 play..? Don't answer that, I know it could. How did you go with your recaps - any further thoughts here?

 

 

Bumping for Cass.  On page 70 originally

[Darthe]

  On 11/13/2014 at 6:48 PM, Kivam said:

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 6:22 PM, Darthe said:

Was holding off on the Kiv thing to see if he was going to bite at people voting him for his catchup posts but he never really did.  Kind of odd to see him not even address votes so I've been content to leave it for now but before I go (an hour and a half left) I'll probably change it since there isn't much there.  

 

It's Day 1, and I'm playing with a bunch of people who never played with me before but seem to have heard my name.  Why would I be riled up by getting voted?

 

I don't expect riled per say but did anticipate acknowledgement at least, maybe a reaction.  IDK, it's essentially null that you didn't respond since I don't have meta on you.

[Kivam]

  On 11/13/2014 at 6:48 PM, Yates. said:

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 6:44 PM, Kivam said:

Sure, lynching scum would give us more info...

Nobody cares, Kivam. Just pretend we've all played a game or two of mafia before and that we already know what happens after a lynch. Cool? Cool.

 

 

Makes sense, considering Stelio just asked what info could possibly come from a townie lynch. 

 

[Yates]

  On 11/13/2014 at 6:56 PM, Kivam said:

Makes sense, considering Stelio just asked what info could possibly come from a townie lynch.

I missed that. Sorry. Carry on.

[Darthe]

  On 11/13/2014 at 6:48 PM, csarmi said:

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 6:16 PM, Darthe said:

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 6:13 PM, csarmi said:

Darthe my main concern with you is you preempting the Despo tunnel on you and your convoluted early posts.

I've preempted Des tunneling me several times because, as I said in the beginning, he does it a lot.  I don't get what would sketch you out about that.  Des tunnels me a lot.  Des is wrong a lot.  The two are inclusive facts of my experiences with him in mafia games.  

 

Convoluted?

 

 

I mean you pointed out that "oh Des gonna tunnel me" to pre-empt his attack on you.

 

Convoluted as in your first posts were hard to comprehend. You usually sound clearer to me.

 

I think my best towntell on you is when I keep nodding my head (or shaking it) but understand what you mean (at least on a reread which didn't happen yet). I'm holding my read on you pending a recap which may or may not happen this weekend. Today is a lost cause already, I'm not in a good shape and I'll need to rest.

 

So Despo gotta carry the flag.

 

 

I really don't feel like I'm all that difficult to understand so I got nothing on that.  However, you're assigning reasons to me stating that Des tunnels me.  I predicted it after the first time he mentioned me (IIRC).  It wasn't some coordinated interception like you make it sound, just a reactive statement based on my experience.  

[Kivam]

  On 11/13/2014 at 6:53 PM, Darthe said:

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 6:48 PM, Kivam said:

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 6:22 PM, Darthe said:

Was holding off on the Kiv thing to see if he was going to bite at people voting him for his catchup posts but he never really did.  Kind of odd to see him not even address votes so I've been content to leave it for now but before I go (an hour and a half left) I'll probably change it since there isn't much there.  

 

It's Day 1, and I'm playing with a bunch of people who never played with me before but seem to have heard my name.  Why would I be riled up by getting voted?

 

I don't expect riled per say but did anticipate acknowledgement at least, maybe a reaction.  IDK, it's essentially null that you didn't respond since I don't have meta on you.

 

 

And never will.  (Probably because I may fade to black again, but also because I don't shift my play around as town or scum, since that would make my scum games silly short and my town games too).

[dicetosser1]

i need to head to work so

 

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 1:58 PM, Sili Quirrels said:

 

They aren't mutually exclusive. I know when I'm being deceitful I'm the sort who considers the lay of the land, so my paranoia would be less obvious.

 

 

 

this. it ties into thoughts from marlfox  so i cant explain.

 

 

##vote sili

[Kivam]

  On 11/13/2014 at 6:58 PM, Yates. said:

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 6:56 PM, Kivam said:

Makes sense, considering Stelio just asked what info could possibly come from a townie lynch.

I missed that. Sorry. Carry on.

 

Missed it? It was in the post I quoted in the post you were responding to.

 

This pings.

[Darthe]

^Don't know why but this post is sketching me out.  

[Darthe]

'd

[hazelkrs1]

  On 11/13/2014 at 6:59 PM, dicetosser1 said:

i need to head to work so

 

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 1:58 PM, Sili Quirrels said:

 

 

They aren't mutually exclusive. I know when I'm being deceitful I'm the sort who considers the lay of the land, so my paranoia would be less obvious.

 

 

 

this. it ties into thoughts from marlfox so i cant explain.

 

 

##vote sili

Ugh @ this vote.

[Sili Quirrels]

  On 11/13/2014 at 6:59 PM, dicetosser1 said:

i need to head to work so

 

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 1:58 PM, Sili Quirrels said:

 

They aren't mutually exclusive. I know when I'm being deceitful I'm the sort who considers the lay of the land, so my paranoia would be less obvious.

 

 

 

this. it ties into thoughts from marlfox  so i cant explain.

 

 

##vote sili

you hurt me.

[Darthe]

  On 11/13/2014 at 7:04 PM, Despothera said:

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 6:59 PM, dicetosser1 said:

i need to head to work so

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 1:58 PM, Sili Quirrels said:

 

They aren't mutually exclusive. I know when I'm being deceitful I'm the sort who considers the lay of the land, so my paranoia would be less obvious.

 

 

this. it ties into thoughts from marlfox so i cant explain.

 

 

##vote sili

Ugh @ this vote.

 

Did WE just do that?

[Sili Quirrels]

Vote Count D1.21:

 

Pral (5): Nyn [#691], Yates [#698], Sili [#700], Leelou [#1302], Thane [#1299]
Sili (5): Kivam [#362], Krak [#1026], Wombat [#1213], Verbarm [#1239] Dice [#1660]
DPR (3): Deslami [#1457], Cass [#1566], Stelio [#1598]
Kivam (2): AJ [#1192], Darthe [#1311]


Unvote (1): Pral [#1323]

Not Voting (7): Cass, DPR, Hallia, Rags, Tress

At the gallows: Pral

[Darthe]

Wouldn't it be Sili because Kivam has been on longer than Laya?

[Tommyrod]

No. Idiot.

[Yates]

  On 11/13/2014 at 7:02 PM, Kivam said:

Missed it? It was in the post I quoted in the post you were responding to.

 

This pings.

Yes. Because I'm going to pretend I didn't see something that you can actually quote to further my scum agenda? Nope. Just missed it. I'll blame it on skimming because my eyes are glazed over. *shrug* I saw you starting the whole information lynch argument again and that drew my immediate attention and ire. Deal with it.

[Thane Vakarian]

so, yeah. I'm gonna head home soon. Vote stays *nods* Cyas on the flipside

[Kivam]

  On 11/13/2014 at 7:11 PM, Yates. said:

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 7:02 PM, Kivam said:

Missed it? It was in the post I quoted in the post you were responding to.

 

This pings.

Yes. Because I'm going to pretend I didn't see something that you can actually quote to further my scum agenda? Nope. Just missed it. I'll blame it on skimming because my eyes are glazed over. *shrug* I saw you starting the whole information lynch argument again and that drew my immediate attention and ire. Deal with it.

 

 

LOL. Fair enough

[Darthe]

  On 11/13/2014 at 7:11 PM, Tommyrod said:

No. Idiot.

It's not my fault that you have to do everything in the most complicated way possible.

[Sili Quirrels]

It's pretty simple.

 

You count the votes and if there's a tie you're lazy and don't do anything about it.

[Tommyrod]

  On 11/13/2014 at 7:15 PM, Darthe said:

 

  On 11/13/2014 at 7:11 PM, Tommyrod said:

 

No. Idiot.

It's not my fault that you have to do everything in the most complicated way possible.

Whichever wagon is leader remains leader until overtaken by another wagon. All that matters is when a wagon became leader, not when the individual votes are on it.