[Standard] 11/10 Top Tier Vanilla+ Game Thread

[Darthe]

@Barm what's your other half up to?  

 

I feel like I am thread spamming with all of these posts... blegh.

[Barmacral]

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:03 PM, Nynaeve said:

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 1:53 PM, Barmacral said:

At that point in the game anyone at all, the game had just started and up to then there had been exactly zero real content. And it worked, multiple people responded and blew things out of proportion for what I entirely agree should have amounted to nothing.

 

So.... you're saying you said it for reactions and didn't actually find it weird?

 

 

Yeah, like I mentioned there was no information to go on and everyone was still in hello and spam mode, so I started something to see where it went

 

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:13 PM, Darthe said:

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 3:52 AM, WWWwombat said:

Needs more Derf

 

And so I appear!

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 3:54 AM, Sili Quirrels said:

wombat/dpr/darthe town alliance with me, if you think I'm worthy?

 

Ping

 

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 1:25 PM, Barmacral said:

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:45 AM, Darthe said:

____________________________________________________________________

 

Barmacral, on 11 Nov 2014 - 4:14 PM, said:

Any votes that are on pral are because of plays Arsis made and are still as valid regardless of the player switch, it is up to Pral to convince people that they are wrong about Arsis.

 

And on that note I'm off to bed. See you all tomorrow.

 

____________________________________________________________________

 

This is weird posturing because it assumes that Laya and Arsis have to face off and forces that mentality.  Why would Laya have to react that 

 

 

What? I don't understand you here. Are you suggesting that Prayala get a clean slate? I'm not posturing or forcing any mentality. Your comment is confusing and exceptionally weird.

 

 

This is definitely pushing an angle.  Forcing a mentality was a bad way to say that, which I'll concede.  I don't see how Arsis making decisions validates votes on Laya which is what I'm calling bs on.  Can you explain that in your comment?  Also, I didn't say Laya should have a clean slate anywhere.  

 

 

No, you directly implied it. Kivam has already answered your question here:

 

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 1:56 PM, Kivam said:

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 1:25 PM, Barmacral said:

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:45 AM, Darthe said:

____________________________________________________________________

 

Barmacral, on 11 Nov 2014 - 4:14 PM, said:

Any votes that are on pral are because of plays Arsis made and are still as valid regardless of the player switch, it is up to Pral to convince people that they are wrong about Arsis.

 

And on that note I'm off to bed. See you all tomorrow.

 

____________________________________________________________________

 

This is weird posturing because it assumes that Laya and Arsis have to face off and forces that mentality.  Why would Laya have to react that 

 

 

What? I don't understand you here. Are you suggesting that Prayala get a clean slate? I'm not posturing or forcing any mentality. Your comment is confusing and exceptionally weird.

 

 

This.  Praya may not be able to "explain" moves that Arsis made - he can't know what was in Arsis' head - but it's one roster spot and the reads are on the roster spot, not the player (i.e. whatever alignment Arsis had, so does Praya).  Praya's play may change things, but there sure as hell ain't no clean slate

 

 

 

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:17 PM, Darthe said:

@Barm what's your other half up to?  

 

I feel like I am thread spamming with all of these posts... blegh.

 

Wish I knew, I'm guessing he is busy with work, he's been totally inactive in our QT too.

[Sili Quirrels]

  Quote

And here we go with more Yates defending.

 

Dude - you attack Nyn based on an ambiguous comment she made but but lacks any evidence while simultaneously trying to defend a player and play that we have in the books as evidence.

 

That's just not cricket, old boy.

 

First of all. Barm. Not nyn. Thanks for not reading. And I was only developing a tone read of one post and pushing for a response. I hold the belief that were I attacking them I would want something more substantial than one post to use.

 

Second of all, i don't mean to defend yates. he doesn't need it. i've made no statements regarding his alignment yet. and so far my opinion of him has been null.

[DPR]

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:12 PM, Sili Quirrels said:

I'm sewing confusion and doubt?

 

  Quote

These two posts, made this morning, concern me. They bring to my mind a cohesive effort surrounding SEER COVER 2014, and while it it unlikely that the play is simple or correlates how I'm going to lay it out (D1 and all) I'll betcha that at least one of these players is glomming on to use it to their advantage.

 

well i have no intention of making any effort to clear yates or defend him in any significant way until i'm reasonably confident he's town, but my impression is people are skeptical of him because they don't understand seer cover so I'm tyring to explain it so they make an informed decision.

 

explain it to the best of my ability anyway.

 

  Quote

He balances this by soft-attacking Nyn with "guilty conscience" vibes.

 

Actually, I was quoting barm, not nyn.

 

I can't speak for everybody, but I believe that Seer Cover has been explained enough times.

 

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 1:06 PM, Sili Quirrels said:

 

  Quote

Why do you have bad juju about us? You've said this several times but I don't recall you giving a reason for it.

 

Because your language is stilted language, and implies a guilty conscience?

 

 

My admitted mistake on confusing Barm and Nyn. 

 

My point about the post stands.

[Tommyrod]

Just under 36 hours left in D1.

 

Players who do not vote by EOD risk being ridiculed by their mod and peers.

[Sili Quirrels]

@darthe. an intentional ping.

 

I'm practicing how to scum!tell in case i ever rand a jester.

[Yates]

  On 11/12/2014 at 1:17 PM, Nynaeve said:

For the record I'm adding Lee to my light town pile. I've felt a bit guarded about her after she fooled me last game... but I'm comfortable with her posts so far.

The best thing she's done over the last few weeks is hydra with me.

 

But yeah. I'm comfortable giving her an early green as well.

[Nynaeve]

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:12 PM, Sili Quirrels said:

I'm sewing confusion and doubt?

 

  Quote

These two posts, made this morning, concern me. They bring to my mind a cohesive effort surrounding SEER COVER 2014, and while it it unlikely that the play is simple or correlates how I'm going to lay it out (D1 and all) I'll betcha that at least one of these players is glomming on to use it to their advantage.

 

well i have no intention of making any effort to clear yates or defend him in any significant way until i'm reasonably confident he's town, but my impression is people are skeptical of him because they don't understand seer cover so I'm tyring to explain it so they make an informed decision.

 

Skepticism is an healthy move when it comes to Yates' claims xD

[Sili Quirrels]

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:22 PM, DreadPirateRoberts said:

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:12 PM, Sili Quirrels said:

I'm sewing confusion and doubt?

 

  Quote

These two posts, made this morning, concern me. They bring to my mind a cohesive effort surrounding SEER COVER 2014, and while it it unlikely that the play is simple or correlates how I'm going to lay it out (D1 and all) I'll betcha that at least one of these players is glomming on to use it to their advantage.

 

well i have no intention of making any effort to clear yates or defend him in any significant way until i'm reasonably confident he's town, but my impression is people are skeptical of him because they don't understand seer cover so I'm tyring to explain it so they make an informed decision.

 

explain it to the best of my ability anyway.

 

  Quote

He balances this by soft-attacking Nyn with "guilty conscience" vibes.

 

Actually, I was quoting barm, not nyn.

 

I can't speak for everybody, but I believe that Seer Cover has been explained enough times.

 

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 1:06 PM, Sili Quirrels said:

 

  Quote

Why do you have bad juju about us? You've said this several times but I don't recall you giving a reason for it.

 

Because your language is stilted language, and implies a guilty conscience?

 

 

My admitted mistake on confusing Barm and Nyn. 

 

My point about the post stands.

 

well, considering I was answering cass I would say that yes, it still needed some explaining.

 

And besides, I always have a unique view on the world. My opinion is worth its size in binary code.

[Nynaeve]

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:22 PM, Tommyrod said:

Just under 36 hours left in D1.

 

Players who do not vote by EOD risk being ridiculed by their mod and peers.

 

Just point me in the right direction.

[Darthe]

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:20 PM, Barmacral said:

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:03 PM, Nynaeve said:

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 1:53 PM, Barmacral said:

At that point in the game anyone at all, the game had just started and up to then there had been exactly zero real content. And it worked, multiple people responded and blew things out of proportion for what I entirely agree should have amounted to nothing.

 

So.... you're saying you said it for reactions and didn't actually find it weird?

 

 

Yeah, like I mentioned there was no information to go on and everyone was still in hello and spam mode, so I started something to see where it went

 

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:13 PM, Darthe said:

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 1:25 PM, Barmacral said:

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:45 AM, Darthe said:

____________________________________________________________________

 

Barmacral, on 11 Nov 2014 - 4:14 PM, said:

Any votes that are on pral are because of plays Arsis made and are still as valid regardless of the player switch, it is up to Pral to convince people that they are wrong about Arsis.

 

And on that note I'm off to bed. See you all tomorrow.

 

____________________________________________________________________

 

This is weird posturing because it assumes that Laya and Arsis have to face off and forces that mentality.  Why would Laya have to react that 

 

 

What? I don't understand you here. Are you suggesting that Prayala get a clean slate? I'm not posturing or forcing any mentality. Your comment is confusing and exceptionally weird.

 

 

This is definitely pushing an angle.  Forcing a mentality was a bad way to say that, which I'll concede.  I don't see how Arsis making decisions validates votes on Laya which is what I'm calling bs on.  Can you explain that in your comment?  Also, I didn't say Laya should have a clean slate anywhere.  

 

 

No, you directly implied it. Kivam has already answered your question here:

 

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 1:56 PM, Kivam said:

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 1:25 PM, Barmacral said:

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:45 AM, Darthe said:

____________________________________________________________________

 

Barmacral, on 11 Nov 2014 - 4:14 PM, said:

Any votes that are on pral are because of plays Arsis made and are still as valid regardless of the player switch, it is up to Pral to convince people that they are wrong about Arsis.

 

And on that note I'm off to bed. See you all tomorrow.

 

____________________________________________________________________

 

This is weird posturing because it assumes that Laya and Arsis have to face off and forces that mentality.  Why would Laya have to react that 

 

 

What? I don't understand you here. Are you suggesting that Prayala get a clean slate? I'm not posturing or forcing any mentality. Your comment is confusing and exceptionally weird.

 

 

This.  Praya may not be able to "explain" moves that Arsis made - he can't know what was in Arsis' head - but it's one roster spot and the reads are on the roster spot, not the player (i.e. whatever alignment Arsis had, so does Praya).  Praya's play may change things, but there sure as hell ain't no clean slate

 

 

 

Not to be dense but I am really not getting this.  Is there something I'm missing here because I don't see how they are so connected and that's what got me on this in the first place.

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:23 PM, Sili Quirrels said:

@darthe. an intentional ping.

 

I'm practicing how to scum!tell in case i ever rand a jester.

 

[Barmacral]

Ok heading out, back later this evening.

[DPR]

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:22 PM, Sili Quirrels said:

 

  Quote

And here we go with more Yates defending.

 

Dude - you attack Nyn based on an ambiguous comment she made but but lacks any evidence while simultaneously trying to defend a player and play that we have in the books as evidence.

 

That's just not cricket, old boy.

 

First of all. Barm. Not nyn. Thanks for not reading. And I was only developing a tone read of one post and pushing for a response. I hold the belief that were I attacking them I would want something more substantial than one post to use.

 

Second of all, i don't mean to defend yates. he doesn't need it. i've made no statements regarding his alignment yet. and so far my opinion of him has been null.

 

 

This seems emo to me - it's a simple error and your quote isn't tagged. Either way, my point is that you choose to focus on a point with no evidence while simultaneously disregarding evidence on the table.

[Stelio Kontos]

Catching up (and will continue to play catchup throughout the day, unless work is slower than I think it will be) -- should be around plenty this evening though.  Probably.  I hope?

 

I really like Kivam's approach -- not that it's not possible to regurgitate/go into commentary mode on "this is what people posted" -- but there seems to be some actual analysis along with it, most of which I think I like; in the absence of anything pinging me strongly I'll probably be sponging him at end of day.

 

Nyn seems pretty villagery overall, as does Despothera.  Leelou too, though probably a step behind the others.

 

In thinking about it a bit while driving around town yesterday (and I realize this is SO thirty pages ago, tough titties), Thane (and if it's not Thane, then presume this applies to whoever actually said it instead and correct me) coming out with the "we had a tell on each other but I'm not using it any more" thing certainly makes that pair not wolves together (because otherwise they'd either figure out a way to exploit it, or just not say anything about it -- it seems like something that other people would tend not to bring up the absence of?).  Which isn't terribly meaningful now but might be at some point.  It's possible that Thane is a wolf trying to explain away why he's not using said tell -- but, again, if I were a wolf in that spot it's certainly something I'd try like heck to exploit, especially given that it's not really like he can use it in the future now -- so overall I'm inclined to give Thane a villager lean for it.

 

How I tend to approach the game (and, as a corollary, why I'm useful as a box of rocks on day 1): I tend to sort of form a mental "association cloud" of people's interactions with each other; it's not so much that individual actions are inherently wolfy or villagery, though of course some can be (but if they're that obvious you don't need me to find them anyway), it's more that "people tend to gravitate toward each other's positions throughout the thread".  Too many "associations" with wolves, bad.  Worse, though, is gravitating towards other's positions, then switching out at convenient times.  I've found this very very useful as an overall approach... but of course it requires a few people to flip first.

[Stelio Kontos]

And yes, I'm sure that you'd all LOVE to have me interact in real time blah blah blah... it'll happen when it happens.

[DPR]

Not liking Darthe 2.0 this morning. 

 

Is Cass being mentored by Manbat during this game? Her posts make it hard to tell if he is or was mentoring.

[Thane Vakarian]

She IS being mentored, first full game on DM for her

[Sili Quirrels]

  Quote

This seems emo to me - it's a simple error and your quote isn't tagged. Either way, my point is that you choose to focus on a point with no evidence while simultaneously disregarding evidence on the table.

 

A little, but I disagree with your use of 'attack'. it implies hostility or conviction. neither of which are the case.

 

What do you mean by evidence? Tone reading a fishy post should be completely valid, and I wasn't aware I was disregarding anything.

[Thane Vakarian]

@Stelio: D1 is bad in general, i tend to agree that the game picks up momentum when the first people have flipped. And ftr, i would like to interact realtime, but as you said, it'll happen when it does (or not)

[Yates]

  On 11/12/2014 at 1:40 PM, Cass said:

So, Seer Cover isn't usual for DM (Manbat warned me of this), BUT Yates (specifically) has hardclaimed Seer early on/provided obvious cover before? Down the track I would be interested to know how often/in what setting... and if there are any differences in play.

Okay. I guess this needs to be said, too - here's a list of the players currently involved in this game that were in the game I just linked to:

Rags

Hally

AJ

Krak

Sili

Darth

Wombat

Yates

 

Tom - this game's Mod.

Manbat - that game's Mod.

 

Yes. That's 10 people. So 9 of the 20 people in this game should/would know about Seer cover. DM doesn't typically do N0's or have Seer. This game had an N0 and has a Seer. I'm assuming, based on an ongoing discussion about mafia maturing at this site, that Tommy is trying to [re?]introduce some basic game play and mafia roles, setups, and strategies to DM. I'm happy to oblige.

 

As to whether or not I would fake claim?

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:24 PM, Nynaeve said:

Skepticism is an healthy move when it comes to Yates' claims xD

Uh. Yeah. I would say fake claims are a pretty big part of the games of Des, Arsis, and myself. For us? They are null as we will fake claim as either alignment equally.

[DPR]

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:38 PM, Sili Quirrels said:

 

  Quote

This seems emo to me - it's a simple error and your quote isn't tagged. Either way, my point is that you choose to focus on a point with no evidence while simultaneously disregarding evidence on the table.

 

A little, but I disagree with your use of 'attack'. it implies hostility or conviction. neither of which are the case.

 

What do you mean by evidence? Tone reading a fishy post should be completely valid, and I wasn't aware I was disregarding anything.

 

 

Interesting that you are the second player to make mention of my adjectives.

 

If I comment that you have "attacked" a post, I'm dying that you chose a post and a point to object to and brought it up in thread. You attacked it. There might be a "soft attack" or a "hard attack", but it's an attack nonetheless.

 

If I comment that you are "shaming" another player, it means that you've use insulting verbiage to belittle their play or leaned on them as if you were more experienced than they are.

 

Personally, I find mincing words scummish.

 

If I say "evidence", I'm referring to an action by a player, documented, that can used to reference continuity later. 

 

"Tone reading" and hunches in general are speculation. They can be useful as guides - I have a few right now - but they are not submittable  in court.

 

In my experience, players that favor hunches over evidence find themselves at the wrong end of the noose or knife.

[Kivam]

Cass!  That is a beautiful post.  Welcome to the game. 

 

A couple of general comments in teaching mode, then I'll get to your questions for me. 

 

First, get meta out of your toolbox as a worthwhile way to examine veteran players.  It's useful on new players who don't have the skill to adapt to different roles, but trying to meta a player like Wes (DPR - his original screen name was Wes, which changed to DreadPirateRoberts, which shortened to DPR, so those of us who knew him when still tend to refer to him as Wes), or Wombat, or Barm, or, well, me (and a bunch of other vets in this thread I'm leaving out for space) is both a very bad idea and kind of an insult.  Why do I say that? 

 

What meta means is that you are comparing game play from one game to another, or across many games, and looking for inconsistencies.  The thought process is "if he did 'X' as town, and now he is doing 'not X' in this game, it's probably because he's not town."  But there are two assumptions going on there, neither of which hold true for anyone who is any good at mafia: (1) that people make the same plays over and over again within a particular alignment, rather than adapting to the players, game setup and conditions, and actual play of the game in progress; and (2) that the player isn't good enough to have a consciously pro-town play style if they are scum.  

 

Like I said, neither of those are true for players with any skill.  Personally, I like to think I've never played a mafia game as scum.  That doesn't mean I haven't been scum in mafia games - I've been scum plenty, and had tremendous fun doing it.  What it means is that whether I am town or scum, my play in the game thread will be exactly the same (again, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm making the same moves from game to game - but whatever move I make in a particular game will be made without regard to my alignment).  Take my analysis in this game, for example.  As a townie (assuming I'm a townie in this game), I don't know for certain who scum are, so I'm watching for reactions, noting oddities, and building cases.  Even as a pretty good player (I'd say at least 50% of my mafia reputation is as a mod, since my games actually are legendary  ) odds are good that I'm going to be wrong somewhere between 50-66% of the time (I'm better than a random guess, but early in the game nobody's better by much).  That means that as scum (assuming I'm scum in this game), I can do the same analysis for townie cred and rest secure in the knowledge that if I die and the town tries to read too far into my analysis ("he was trying to cast blame here - that guy must be innocent"; "he was trying to deflect attention there, he must be guilty"; "no, he knew we'd think that, so the guy he was blaming is his teammate and the guy he was saving is innocent," etc.) I will be essentially leading lynches from the grave.  In fact, the game that made my reputation as a player was a perfect example of that - I deliberately set out to get lynched as mafia day 1, then watched the town follow reads I set up for them, lynching townie after townie (with an occasional teammate thrown in to keep them on the Chosen trail) while a teammate skated to victory.

 

What does that mean?  It means that the first rule of mafia is trust nobody.  I don't care how townie people are coming across to you, you cannot trust them, because if they're any good, there's at least a 50% chance they are playing you.  So what are you supposed to do with my analysis (or anyone else's) if you shouldn't be trusting it?  (i.e. why am I wasting my time writing novels if I don't want any of you to trust them?).  Use it without trusting it.  Review my recaps and analysis, and then go back and check the things I'm recapping as you read my analysis.  Am I leaving things out?  (I have to, to condense pages of posts down to a paragraph - but what am I leaving out, does it seem significant, and is there any pattern to it that raises your hackles?).  Am I slanting things?  Do you agree with my reads or disagree with them - and if so, why?  Use it as a springboard for your own analysis - of me and everyone else - without following it blindly.

 

Second, and this is a mechanic that will be new to you if you haven't played a SK game before: serial killers play as town.  Just like town, they have no idea of anyone else's alignment.  Just like town, they want scum out of the game.  The only real difference is that unlike town, they don't have a factional win (i.e. they can't win if they're dead) which means they will never take a bullet for anyone else and must avoid being lynched or NKd at all costs.  SKs are therefore typically risk averse; it does no good to let it all hang out and convince everyone you're town if it gets you night killed, and it does no good to be so scummy you get lynched.  If our serial is any good, they'll be hanging out in the muddled middle, shading towards town.  (If they are shading towards scum, so be it; we'll end up lynching them as we scum hunt, and I'm ok with that).   

 

OK, out of general teaching mode and onto your comments:

 

 

  Quote

 

 

Dice’s interactions with me at this point seem very normal Dice. I don’t have time to backsearch all the pages to analyse his interactions with others (yet), but I think it may be important to note for the future of this game that I don’t think you can judge his allegiance by the way he interacts with me. He feels responsible for me in this game, and we’re mates ... Because we’re mates and Band Cavvy pals, I automatically start with him in Town but, staying honest, my jury is out on him until I go back and read all of his posts.

 

Other than the first bold: dear God, no.  I don't know Dice well enough to know if he's any good, but basing your read on a player on how he interacts with you generally, and "automatically starting with your mates/pals in town" is a horrible, horrible idea for all the reasons discussed above.  Your first bold is exactly right: nothing you knew about Dice prior to this game should have any bearing on your read on his alignment.  He starts out as null, like everyone else.

 

 

  Quote

 

I like the way Kivam posts. For someone with my lack of actual game experience, some of his/her natural reflections on game ‘events’ are very insightful, and, TBH, they make me feel safe, as if I am getting an idea of what is going on. However – I am not sure that I like his/her underlying tone. I understand (or have been told) that Kivam is a bit of a legend in mafia on DM *nods to Kivam* so I understand the frank reflections, but, to me, there’s something kind of dismissive and condescending about the tone. Yes, it’s insightful, but there’s the slightest whiff of sneer and not really much display of team.  Maybe it’s deliberate, I’m not sure. But it concerns me, because I’m assuming that if s/he’s Wolf, s/he’s experienced/smart enough to edit her train of thought in those posts naturally enough to turn suspicions onto the people s/he’d eventually like to see mislynched – and the ‘legend’ status that his/her meta contains could be enough to easily sway unwary town.

 

 

Not going to repeat the above about feeling "safe" with anyone .  Re tone - you're absolutely right, because I was reacting to Darthe's dig.  I tend to adjust my tone to the playstyle of the game; I wouldn't say here some of the things I'd say on JN (not that I've said anything on JN in a long time ... I've been on a 2-year-ish mafia break).  But between Darthe's dig, the emphasis on meta, and "tonereading" ... I'm a bit offended/annoyed.  Like I said, that stuff is kind of an insult to anyone good at mafia, and seeing games played like that ... well, it grates on me the way The Good Wife does (I'm a lawyer, and watching lawyer shows that get the big huge law plot points wrong is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me).

 

  Quote

 

For example, this post - #475 - s/he posts a ‘pop quiz’, calls us all ‘hotshots’ and comments that the reason for testing us is to ‘see how far we’ve fallen’. I don’t like it. I would like to think that someone experienced at the game and Town would be all for just telling us where they thought we were going wrong, if we did, and offering us guidance rather than a grilling. Interestingly, I thought, Desp replied in post #480 with what I thought was a pretty good, honest answer, but (as far as I’ve seen) [/i]Kivam never replied[/i].

 

Why post a very pointed question, worded like that, if it wasn’t something you were ever going to answer when people replied?

 

"Pop quiz, hotshot" is a quote from the movie Speed.  (Showing my age? That's ok).  If you're continuing your re-read, you'll see I did react to the answers when I got there in my recaps.  Again, good thought process here, though. You'll be a good addition to the mafia roster.

 

And I'm a "he"

 

  Quote

 

Thane seemed very active early on, not so much now (correct me if I’m wrong?). I’m not sure whether this was because he was genuine and got stamped on for being active and attempting to be jovial, or because he was caught out for playing somewhat different from what people would expect. There was possibly something different that I couldn't put my finger on. He’s the only person besides Dice that I know, and I’m not sure if he was coming across a little different to normal for mafia or in general, or not.

 

Again, I'm going to counsel you not to use this as a basis for reads.  It seems like Thane's a new enough player that this might be a useful tool for him, but I lean away from it as a general rule.

 

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 12:18 PM, Cass said:

I'm here!

 

*Dances*

 

SHOW TIME!!

 

OK. I'm gonna post some of my early/'current' reads, along with some questions for Town at this point. I'd like to really encourage everyone who has played with the people I’m wary about – and those I’m not wary enough of - before to weigh in on this for me, because I think your meta on them will be pivotal to my decisions and the way I cast my votes, but I’m wary for what this means down the track if the majority of people who post replies are Wolf.

 

(I don’t think it’s worth dismissing this as me asking for people to baby me, either, since the way I see it, at this point the number of Town vastly outnumber the number of Wolves, and pooling our collective meta on everyone now is the best way to ensure what we’re reading isn’t building bias based on an over-representation of strategic Wolf...).

 

Here goes.

**Disclaimer: These are early reads and I’m not completely caught up yet. This is a work in progress but I thought it would be better to post now, holes and all, than wait and let my ‘non-contributions’ vibe grow.  My reads are not yet in any order and they’re (obviously) based on gut reactions to wording and timing at this point, rather than insights into implications on tells and the theories of how people tend to play the game. I’m hoping game progression and y’all can help me with that. Tips on how to be faster would also be appreciated. (Like, for example, is there a way to find a full list of posts from a single player in the thread? I’ve asked mentorbat but timezones are making that weirdly ineffective now). Anyway. Early thoughts(!) on some not all players    

 

 

Yes. I realise that's a three paragraph introduction. I'm wordy. I warned you...

 

 

 

DICE

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Dice’s interactions with me at this point seem very normal Dice. I don’t have time to backsearch all the pages to analyse his interactions with others (yet), but I think it may be important to note for the future of this game that I don’t think you can judge his allegiance by the way he interacts with me. He feels responsible for me in this game, and we’re mates - he is treating me with kidd gloves. And I get the feeling he will continue to do so for the rest of the game, whether he wants to or not, regardless of whether he randed Wolf or Town, unless it really, really comes to the crunch. Read his reflection on me here again and I think you’ll see what I mean.

 

Because we’re mates and Band Cavvy pals, I automatically start with him in Town but, staying honest, my jury is out on him until I go back and read all of his posts.

 

His reflection on me is pretty accurate, except for the nerves part - now that I’ve started and people have responded/mentioned I’m ‘endearing’ (  @ Desp ) I think I’m all good *g*. But I’d like to clarify for everyone what he meant when he said in the Turbo game my reads were ‘just a little too late’. My insight is not necessarily slow. My posting unfortunately is (I’m working on it!!). After being (understandably) mislynched N1, I followed the game live and actually did end up with all the right reads before the final votes/wagons were pushed in the game. I’m taking that as a good sign. Dice may be right about activity being a problem for me initially though. I’m busy with work from 430am til 630pm (at the earliest) Mon-Wed etc and I really am just plain slow. 

 

Dicey, thanks for unvoting me, and I hope we’re on the same team . Frankly though, if you’re not, you’re GONE . Seduce me.

 

KIVAM

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I like the way Kivam posts. For someone with my lack of actual game experience, some of his/her natural reflections on game ‘events’ are very insightful, and, TBH, they make me feel safe, as if I am getting an idea of what is going on. However – I am not sure that I like his/her underlying tone. I understand (or have been told) that Kivam is a bit of a legend in mafia on DM *nods to Kivam* so I understand the frank reflections, but, to me, there’s something kind of dismissive and condescending about the tone. Yes, it’s insightful, but there’s the slightest whiff of sneer and not really much display of team.  Maybe it’s deliberate, I’m not sure. But it concerns me, because I’m assuming that if s/he’s Wolf, s/he’s experienced/smart enough to edit her train of thought in those posts naturally enough to turn suspicions onto the people s/he’d eventually like to see mislynched – and the ‘legend’ status that his/her meta contains could be enough to easily sway unwary town.

 

For example, this post - #475 - s/he posts a ‘pop quiz’, calls us all ‘hotshots’ and comments that the reason for testing us is to ‘see how far we’ve fallen’. I don’t like it. I would like to think that someone experienced at the game and Town would be all for just telling us where they thought we were going wrong, if we did, and offering us guidance rather than a grilling. Interestingly, I thought, Desp replied in post #480 with what I thought was a pretty good, honest answer, but (as far as I’ve seen) [/i]Kivam never replied[/i].

 

Why post a very pointed question, worded like that, if it wasn’t something you were ever going to answer when people replied? The only rationale my gut can come up with for that is because the point to the post in the poster’s mind was more about making a personal point/being derisive than it was about being town. And counting on reputation to get away with it, to boot.

 

This sort of thing means that I have Kivam down as largely unknown, but possibly leaning towards red. And like I said, that concerns me because of his/her apparent reputation and potential to swing ‘Town’ play.

 

People, help me/us out (all of you – majority rules, remember?). I realise that a player as adept as Kivam will be able to dodge this sort of ‘read’ with incredible ease, no matter where his/her alliances lie, but I thought it was worth a mention specifically to the rest of you, in case I’m on the money.

In response to Kivam’s recap of my participation thus far

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“Cass shows up again, posts nothing, and then says she’ll disappear again. (I’ll take Radar Avoidance for $200, Alex).” ( (top of post #609). I have to say ‘fair’, although I’d like to think rather than posting ‘nothing’ what I posted was a possibly important introduction offering insight on how I ‘work’ to people who don’t know me and needed something on which to judge my future tone. That's why I did it. And it seems to have worked just like that for most so *shrugs*, that's also why I'm weighing in now with something more   . You got me on the saying I’ll disappear again. I’m picking up on that trend with me too. It's annoying and almost as bad as my noobie vibe and the fact that I just referred to you as s/he for an entire read. I’ll work on it. No promises I'll succeed   

**Questions for Town**
a) Is this sort of tone - see stuff in spoiler for what I mean - normal for Kivam?
b) Is my malaise on the money? And, for Light’s sake,

c) Am I supposed to be referring to shim (/you) as he or she??????

 

DESPOTHERA

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My read on Desp’s initial ‘nothing’ posts was that he came across as possibly too defensive for Town. I had him down as slightly suspicious. But then, I really liked the way he set out his POE post (#455) and a lot of what he said made sense and the way it was written sat well with me. It seemed like a genuine attempt to … well, be genuine. I’m not sure if that, with him, points to wolf or town? Meh.

 

VERBAL/BARMACRAL HYDRA

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I know it was early on and caused a bit of fuss already, but I too found Barm’s post #28 a little... odd. Seemed ‘Wolfy’ in a sense, made me want to ask “Barm, are you jumping on a nothing in order to set Leelou up as scum, because you're WILF?” *shrugs*

**Questions for Town**

Was he? / Has he done anything similar since? 

 

NYN

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I’m not sure what to make of Nyn. Her approach and tone seem to be so opposite to mine it actually takes me aback some. But I think at this point I +1 her for being direct and tending to say things exactly how she ‘thinks’.

 

THANE

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Thane seemed very active early on, not so much now (correct me if I’m wrong?). I’m not sure whether this was because he was genuine and got stamped on for being active and attempting to be jovial, or because he was caught out for playing somewhat different from what people would expect. There was possibly something different that I couldn't put my finger on. He’s the only person besides Dice that I know, and I’m not sure if he was coming across a little different to normal for mafia or in general, or not. I don’t think I’ve seen enough of him past the ‘it could just have been banter’ stage to try a real read.

Thane, help me out buddy, what’s going on? Convince me that you’re not a wolf... Pls  

 

YATES

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It may just have been Seer cover, but I too found Yates’ post #71 (Hard claiming to be Seer, ‘peeking’ Dice as Town) suspicious. I just did. Reasons why outlined in my questions below.

**Questions for Town**

a) Is it usual for Yates to provide such OPEN Seer 'cover'?

b) How plausible is it (especially for those who have caught up and may have examples either way) that Yates may have been a Wolf posting ‘cover’ in the hopes of initiating other ‘peaks’/trying to find the Seer?

 

- - - -

OK. I know this isn’t a full list of players, and that I’m not caught up ( ). If there’s something specific you want my take on, ask.  

If anyone has a (constructive) strategy for dealing with the frustration of being this behind and where I should go from here I’d be happy to hear it (e.g. Do I have to/is it more helpful for me to go back over everything I’m behind on and comment/give you my reads, or not really?). For now I think I’m going to cut my losses, skip to the present and answer specifics when they arise, K?  

 

Looking forward to moving on and people weighing in. 

 

--->(And to finding out how, for the love of Light, to search for a SINGLE PLAYER’S posts!!!) <--- ANSWER THIS ONE FIRST, please!   

 

[WWWwombat]

I think the people arguing against seer cover aren't looking at the circumstances of this game very carefully.  The main reason not to like seer cover is that it essentially gives the seer a shelf-life.  That being said, the setup of this game already puts the seer on a shelf life.  Town has two part-time vigs.  Mafia has two extra kills and a roleblocker.  Town does not have a doc but a jailkeeper (much less effective at protecting cops).  All of this means that not only is the seer more likely to die to nightkill, but once the seer hardclaims, he or she is unlikely to get another viewing off.

 

As for Yates hardclaiming to start the seer cover, that probably wasn't the best move on a site that isn't used to seer cover, but it's not something that makes him scum.  It's still a null-to-town move overall imo.

[DPR]

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:42 PM, Yates. said:

 

  On 11/12/2014 at 1:40 PM, Cass said:

So, Seer Cover isn't usual for DM (Manbat warned me of this), BUT Yates (specifically) has hardclaimed Seer early on/provided obvious cover before? Down the track I would be interested to know how often/in what setting... and if there are any differences in play.

Okay. I guess this needs to be said, too - here's a list of the players currently involved in this game that were in the game I just linked to:

Rags

Hally

AJ

Krak

Sili

Darth

Wombat

Yates

 

Tom - this game's Mod.

Manbat - that game's Mod.

 

Yes. That's 10 people. So 9 of the 20 people in this game should/would know about Seer cover. DM doesn't typically do N0's or have Seer. This game had an N0 and has a Seer. I'm assuming, based on an ongoing discussion about mafia maturing at this site, that Tommy is trying to [re?]introduce some basic game play and mafia roles, setups, and strategies to DM. I'm happy to oblige.

 

As to whether or not I would fake claim?

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:24 PM, Nynaeve said:

Skepticism is an healthy move when it comes to Yates' claims xD

Uh. Yeah. I would say fake claims are a pretty big part of the games of Des, Arsis, and myself. For us? They are null as we will fake claim as either alignment equally.

 

 

This entire post has me scratching my head.

 

Why are you post-padding?

 

I'm open to an explanation, but I think you have to acknowledge that it's a technique used by players who want to steer a topic in another direction and I'm currently asking Sili why he feels it necessary to defend you. 

 

What's up with this?

[Darthe]

  On 11/12/2014 at 2:36 PM, DreadPirateRoberts said:

Not liking Darthe 2.0 this morning. 

 

 

You wound me.