[Standard] 11/10 Top Tier Vanilla+ Game Thread

[hazelkrs1]

Nyn is LOCK CLEAR btw. I'm really good at soulreading her when she's frustrated. There's a difference between her when she's frustrated cause she's dealing with (in her opinion) someone derping on her, or when she's scum and caught for the wrong reasons or something like that.

[hazelkrs1]

I'm totally ready to roll with a town core of Nyn, Leelou, VerBarm, Wombat, and Kivam btw. And what an impressive town core at that

 

[hazelkrs1]

Prob some others I COULD throw in there btw but those are the ones that come to mind easily

[Leelou]

  On 11/11/2014 at 8:58 PM, Barmacral said:

I definitely dislike this Nyn push. Disliked it this morning when others were making it too. Nyn is one of my townish reads.

 

Agreed. 

[Thane Vakarian]

i shall be back tomorrow, and will try to make some sense out of the recent developements.

 

now... what i wonder, Pral comes in, and all the votes stick on him? nobody giving him a chance?

[Barmacral]

Any votes that are on pral are because of plays Arsis made and are still as valid regardless of the player switch, it is up to Pral to convince people that they are wrong about Arsis.

 

And on that note I'm off to bed. See you all tomorrow.

[WWWwombat]

The amount of town-reading and sheeping of the Wombat so far, while appreciated, is unusual.  I believe my vote was on Arsis and am ok with keeping it on Pral.  Maybe he'll actually post more than three times today.

 

Des appears overly interested in political posturing.  He and Salami are down to a town lean.

[Kivam]

  On 11/11/2014 at 9:09 PM, Thane Vakarian said:

i shall be back tomorrow, and will try to make some sense out of the recent developements.

 

now... what i wonder, Pral comes in, and all the votes stick on him? nobody giving him a chance?

 

Um ... wow.  This is subject to finishing my recap, but ... wow.  I'm likely to put my vote on either Andrej or Thane once done, and this may well be the deciding post.

[Tommyrod]

Vote Count D1.10:

Pral (4): Wombat [#568], Nyn [#691], Yates [#698], Sili [#700]
Sili (3): AJ [#67], Kivam [#362], Thane [#453]
Nyn (2): Pral [#416], Krak [#718]
Cass (1): Dicefrogger [#287]
Darthe (1): Deslami [#483]
Yates (1): Darthe [#508]

Unvote (1): Verbarm [#243]

Not Voting (7): Cass, DPR, Hallia, Leelou, Stelio, Rags, Tress

At the gallows: Pral

[Verbal32]

  On 11/11/2014 at 6:38 PM, Krakalakachkn said:

quoted from Dice

 

 

#unvote the stoopid maroon.

 

I liked this post. Feels like very natural Cass to me.

 

 

Why did you feel the need to explain your unvote?

Why not? Why did you feel the need to ask that question?

[Tommyrod]

@Everyone: if you don't use ## tags for voting and unvoting I won't see your vote.

[Kivam]

RECAP

 

Page 19: DesLAMI wonders why Sili would vote a player he doesn't want to lynch (fair question).  I vote Sili for having a NK (+1).  [Note to Thane, Sili - this is how you reaction fish/pressure vote: your vote has to have at least some ostensible rationale behind it, and you can't back away from it too quickly.  I point this out because] Sili claims he voted for Wombat purely as a pressure vote.  (-1.  This is an easy explanation for scum, and if that's what you were doing, announcing that you didn't want him lynched and backing away as quickly as you did meant there was no pressure at all.  This looks like scum dangling a line in the water but ready to yank it back if they got any pressure at all).  VERBarm defends Sili, attacks my vote, identifies Sili as "probably town" (-1).  Hey Verb - what did you base that read on?  Sili proclaims that taking a bullet for Thane is a far, far better thing he does than he has ever done before. while posting a cat smiley.  (A Tale of 2 Kitties?)

 

Page 20: Sili votes DesLami.  Why?  Darthe asks about Sili's activity, tentatively accepts Verb's explanation (-1).  Darthe joins VerBarm in trying to shift attention from Sili to me (-1).  Darthe notes we are missing Rags, Hally, DPR (IIRC, only DPR has since showed; I do NOT feel good about a player who doesn't show at all Day 1).  Darthe calls out Sili on activity levels in more detail ... [ok, this makes me question my "shift attention" thought ... reading these plays as more generally town than they came across on first read.  More "question everything" than potential protect a teammate.  Still a shit response to my read, but less overtly scummy than I remembered].  Darthe continues to prod at Sili, gets a reaction ("OK, I'll be less active").  Passive-aggressive response from Sili is another ping. Wombat calls out Yates, calls Sili on his pressure vote that applies no pressure.  Continues to play a solid townie game.  Darthe calls out Sili's presentation as forced. Arsis suggests this might be coaching. (-1 for Arsis; coaching makes sense only if they are on the same [wolf] team, in which case they would have the ability to talk off thread.  This looks like an attempt to throw suspicion onto Darthe.  Gives me no read on Darthe - gambits are always popular - but very scummy from Arsis). Wombat votes Nyn for ... thin reasons. Pressure?  

 

At this point, my scum reads are Andrej, Thane, Arsis, and Sili, with Arsis closing in on Thane for the second spot.  Darthe is dropping off the list of top suspects but still leaning scum.  Town reads are unchanged, except Verb's reaction to my vote for Sili raises questions given Sili's spot on my list.

 

 

Page 21: Arsis says he had a town read on Darthe until the "coaching" post.  Nyn refuses to be pushed (+1).  Arsis argues Darthe is "providing cover for Sili in the guise of teaching" - which again makes no sense since Darthe was the one who called out the issue he'd be "covering" for in the first place.  (-5). Sili deflects Arsis as "cute".  Arsis votes Nyn as his "biggest scum read".  Sili follows.  Stelio pops up, acknowledges his quietness, disappears again.  [Am I going to be the first to point out his initials are SK?]  

 

Arsis creeps up the list.  Interaction between Arsis and Sili is interesting.

 

Page 22: I call out VERBarm for defending Sili, explain why even town NKs are good lynches (this, btw, is a deliberately BS explanation.  Townie Vigs should simply holster early in the game and shoot with more information later.  But given the reaction to my vote on Sili, I can't back away just yet).  Darthe asks Yates for thoughts on me, Wombat, DesLami & VerBarm (@ Darthe why Yates?  Why that group?).  Yates thinks I'm using old-school mafia logic that will make me read as scum (when did logic become a scum-tell??).  Has a Wombat read (overzealous town or scum) that I don't see at all - Yates, why?- DesLami/VerBarm reading town (in parts).  Gives his lynch/no lynch list.  Informative post that doesn't finger anyone as potential mafia ... a very safe scum move (-1).  Andrej and Hallia show up for a moment.  Hallia vows she can contribute ... then doesn't.  Des calls out Thane for taking "soft stances", runs a mini-case on him (+1).  DESLami continues with thoughts on Nyn, Stelio, Arsis.  All reasonable reads.  Liking these posts (+1).  Arsis immediately defends.

 

Page 23: Andrej is back, and defensive. DESlami posts thoughts on Arsis, Sili, Darthe (begins the tunneling we'll get to later).  Andrej also reacts negatively to my vote on Sili.  Des and Arsis argue about whether the push on Thane was serious.  Nyn posts town reads on DesLami, Wombat, Thane, not so much on VerBarm.  Another solid post.  DESlami notes Darthe's defense of Sili, and opportunistic Arsis/Sili votes on Nyn.  Good calls all around (+1).  Thane votes Sili as being "off".  DESlami posts his reads - a solid scum-hunting post here.  Then again, he also calls out Darthe as "coaching to play off coaching in the w/w thread" - which again makes no sense.  Nobody would know about coaching in the w/w thread if it was happening, and Darthe called out the very issue he then "coached" on ... a very, very convoluted theory.  First sign of tunnelling on Darthe?  Then votes Arsis.  Sili reacts defensively to Thane's vote (-1). Sili defends his "opportunistic vote" as "not mattering this early", then says he's spread "too thin" and that's why he's off.

 

Thane moving down the list.  Sili moving up.  Liking DesLami as solid town. Have to catch a train, will pick this back up later   

[Krakalakachkn]

  On 11/11/2014 at 10:28 PM, Verbal32 said:

 

  On 11/11/2014 at 6:38 PM, Krakalakachkn said:

quoted from Dice

 

 

 

#unvote the stoopid maroon.

 

I liked this post. Feels like very natural Cass to me.

 

 

Why did you feel the need to explain your unvote?

Why not? Why did you feel the need to ask that question?

 

I wanted to know if the two statements were connected.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gonna go read up.

[Verbal32]

@Krak - let me know what you find out

[Verbal32]

@Kiv - still don't like your vote on Sili. There were better reasons to vote him.

 

You say I'm defending him, but I'm not. I'm attacking your reason.

[hazelkrs1]

  On 11/11/2014 at 11:32 PM, Verbal32 said:

@Kiv - still don't like your vote on Sili. There were better reasons to vote him.

 

You say I'm defending him, but I'm not. I'm attacking your reason.

 

Verb, that's pretty simply chainsaw defense.

 

Attacking someone for their vote/fos on Player X is STILL defending Player X, in a roundabout way. Pretty silly for you to argue this imo

[Tommyrod]

MOD NOTE:

 

Lynches will be held on Mondays and Thursdays.

 

I reserve the right to increase the pace to M/W/F as the game progresses and the player base shrinks.

[Andrej]

  On 11/12/2014 at 12:05 AM, Despothera said:

 

  On 11/11/2014 at 11:32 PM, Verbal32 said:

@Kiv - still don't like your vote on Sili. There were better reasons to vote him.

 

You say I'm defending him, but I'm not. I'm attacking your reason.

 

Verb, that's pretty simply chainsaw defense.

 

Attacking someone for their vote/fos on Player X is STILL defending Player X, in a roundabout way. Pretty silly for you to argue this imo

 

Meh, I kinda disagree with you here but I think that's mostly a semantic argument. Verb can dislike the reasoning behind a vote on a player which can still be independent of his view of that player. I agree, ftr, that I found the reason for Kiv's vote weird and almost too linear to be natural.

 

"You mentioned NKing someone? Must be scum!" it's kind of lulzy in that aspect.

 

Anyway - just figured I would respond to this first since it was what I saw immediately and now I'll go back and respond to other things. I've been kinda following along on my phone since the morning but I was out with my son/son's mom the majority of the day doing stuff. Now I'm home for a bit before I go out for dinner/drinks. Taco Tuesday! 

[TheRagnarok]

I'll catch up and participate in this game after we have a lynch in the other one.

[Krakalakachkn]

Some thoughts and notes for myself through page 18.

 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 1:32 PM, Darthe said:

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 1:27 PM, Leelou said:

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 1:26 PM, Barmacral said:

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 1:25 PM, Leelou said:

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 1:24 PM, csarmi said:

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 1:21 PM, Leelou said:

Sup

Townie post.

Generic to the way I speak post.

Defending yourself against an accusation of being town? Weird.

Not really, that shouldn't be judged as a townie or non townie post.

 

That looks like a guilty conscience.  I've argued this with you before but meta is meta and pulling something out of a mostly arbitrary post isn't exclusively random.  

 

Kind of a normal post from Darthe.  See if he goes anywhere with it?

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 1:40 PM, Leelou said:

Heh, about to freeze walking to work. :-p

 

This looks good for Lee after Darthe and Barm's comments concerning her earlier post.  She looks comfortable and nonchalant here.

 

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 2:27 PM, Leelou said:

Time to lynch Darthe? 

 

Interesting post from Leelou considering it's both a question and a nudge.

 

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 2:30 PM, Andrej said:

Sili voting Thane as a D1 lynch as if it's a foregone conclusion rubs me the wrong way even if it was a "joke"

 

I can buy that.

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 2:30 PM, Yates. said:

Claim: Seer

dicetosser1 is Town.

 

Likely to come from town Yates imo.

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 2:36 PM, WWWwombat said:

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 2:22 PM, Darthe said:

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 1:59 PM, WWWwombat said:

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 1:32 PM, Darthe said:

 

That looks like a guilty conscience.  I've argued this with you before but meta is meta and pulling something out of a mostly arbitrary post isn't exclusively random.  

 

 

Salami, does this post rustle your rigor-jimmies too?

 

Rigor Jimmies?

 

 

Don't worry, you don't have any.

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 2:27 PM, Leelou said:

Time to lynch Darthe? 

 

Nope.avi

 

So Wombat sees something that has him townreading or nullreading Darthe.

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 2:39 PM, Darthe said:

Salami howling.

 

Shifts focus to Salami.

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 3:20 PM, Thane Vakarian said:

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 3:18 PM, Cass said:

*Has caught up with the reading to here and come to the following conclusion...*

I think I agree with Darth's central statement in post #111 .

 

... This thread is now shenanigans 

 

(I'm gonna hit the hay, see y'all later in the morning).

what did the hay ever do to anybody?! 

 

Townie post from Thane.

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 3:23 PM, Arsis said:

@yates,why are you trying to manipulate how people read you this game? Wouldn't that have been better in the sign-up thread? Seems like you're trying to establish cover as to why you won't behave a way you normally would.

 

Good thought from Arsis here imo.

 

 

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 4:24 PM, Leelou said:

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 4:19 PM, Krakalakachkn said:

Anyone getting third party vibes from Leelou here?

 

Nope. Are you? 

 

I don't like that Leelou is answering here.  It reads as scummy, and her redirection onto me felt weird. 

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 4:33 PM, Despothera said:

Okay so three that I'm wary of so far are- Darthe, Yates, and Thane. Darthe seems to be trying to fake a casual tone with his start to the game, and mixing up posturing type posts and statements in between looks scummy for him imo. Yates seems too self conscious with announcing all that schtuff about not using the three amigos crap (also I think his point is silly, but meh rehashing that already doesn't seem like it will be productive). Thane seemed to be kinda opportunistic with agreeing with Wombat but also hedged, not a big fan of that, and moreover I didn't like the tone in his response to Barm. Seemed a bit over the top. When people suspect him early as town he isn't as reactionary, he'll defend himself bit doesn't necessarily try to flip it around on his accuser like he tried with Barm.

Speaking of Barm, I liked what he pointed out on Thane, and also liked him pointing out how silly what Arsis was saying about Verb was. Also tentative townlean on AJ- his off the cuffs reads didn't look forced and he had a rather quick turnaround that imo indicates a townie catching up, instead of scum being more calculating in their reads. Also kinda like both Leelou and Verb so far. Leelou saying that statement was null seemed okay, and Verb I dunno, gut just feels town there

 

Do you think the bold could be because he's getting more comfortable with play and is developing or because he's scum?

 

Agree on AJ.

 

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 5:42 PM, Krakalakachkn said:

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 5:27 PM, Nynaeve said:

Why are we talking about this? I'm not going to base my read on Thane on what he rolled in recent games and the fact that he got mislynched. Either we need to learn to read him better or he needs to adjust his play to be more readable. Or both. So lets put previous games aside cause they have no bearing on what he rolled this game.

 

I'm basically gonna try and understand where you're coming from, Thane, and make my own conclusions. But yeah, drop the previous games commentary. 

 

This likely comes from town Nyn, imo.

 

I still think this is true.

 

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 4:55 PM, Verbal32 said:

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 4:54 PM, Thane Vakarian said:

It was a reaction test, yes. But the lack of reaction at first, and now you telling me it's wolfy... dunno. It's something i will keep in mind

 

Are you reaction testing to just do it.....or are you developing reads as a result?  I'm really not sure if you're implementing it as part of a strategy, or just doing it for the sake of doing it.

 

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 6:09 PM, Verbal32 said:

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 5:48 PM, Krakalakachkn said:

@Verb

 

What's your angle with Thane?

 

I don't have one.

 

I want to go back to this because Verb's answer caused me to pull up short.  He has no angle with his questioning of Thane?  I figure he'd at least be trying to get Thane to towntell or scumtell.

 

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 8:06 PM, WWWwombat said:

Want to see more from Verb and Yates right now.  Yates is a confirmed pathological LLL with no trouble compartmentalizing, so his pretensions to honor don't seem genuine to me.

 

Verbal is sketchy for going after Leelou for not slapping down Arsis hard enough.  Why would that kind of thing matter to town Verbal anyway?  Leelou pretty much said Arsis was wrong in this case, so unless Verb was planning on making like 80% of his posts spidey memes, he shouldn't have a problem with what Leelou said.

 

Darthe's last wall was pretty good btw.  Only thing I disagree on is Des/Salami.  Both are null to me atm.

 

Agree with some of this.  

 

Yates is null for me

Agree on Verb and add his interaction with Thane

Salami/Des are clear so far imo

 

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 8:12 PM, Leelou said:

I won't lie, Verb has me a touch on edge so far. 

 

Holding onto this for later.

 

 

 

 

[Kivam]

  On 11/11/2014 at 11:32 PM, Verbal32 said:

@Kiv - still don't like your vote on Sili. There were better reasons to vote him.

 

You say I'm defending him, but I'm not. I'm attacking your reason.

 

I'd buy this more if you had:

 

a) articulated this earlier;

b) identified them earlier; or

c) acted on them earlier.

 

As it is, this reads like post hoc piggybacking as a defense against defending

[hazelkrs1]

@AJ: Thing is, subtlety is a thing that exists in mafia. Scum can defend someone in the pretext that they're actually attacking someone else, but again, chainsaw defending is still defending. It IS a semantics argument, which is why it's so blah to hear people go through all the time

[Sili Quirrels]

  Quote

This is an easy explanation for scum, and if that's what you were doing, announcing that you didn't want him lynched and backing away as quickly as you did meant there was no pressure at all.  This looks like scum dangling a line in the water but ready to yank it back if they got any pressure at all

 

thank you. i kind of new the theory, but i was being lazy.

[Andrej]

  On 11/11/2014 at 3:50 PM, Kivam said:

...

 

Andrej tries to shift the discussion of Supgate back to Leelou (-1,000,000!  Super ping-y to me).

 

...

 

Andrej votes Sili out of nowhere.  ANDREJ - What was up with that? Ah. Next post (that whole thoughts as we go thing kills me again) - says the random (joke?) vote on Thane rubs him the wrong way.  Do not like this post at all. 

 

First bit - I think you're misunderstanding the intent of my question there. It was framed in a certain way, yeah, but the purpose was to make those who were questioning/discussing with (Darthe/Barm) Leelou of her neutral post statement that it was kind of a silly thing to focus on. I reiterate this several times in later posts that I thought her reaction was more of a villager tell than anything else which was kind of the point to my question.

 

Here's the progression:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 2:23 PM, Andrej said:

Do you guys think as a wolf Leelou would be more likely to call a post neutral or accept the villagery praise for it?

 

The 'redirection' that you are taking so much offense to. The question was intended to be pointed, yes, but not in a manner to make Leelou look bad. If anything, you could say I was defending her here so the basis of your scum read is already wrong.

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 2:30 PM, Andrej said:

Barm's question to Leelou was odd if you apply it to the second post I made.

 

Second post is quoted above ^

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 3:38 PM, Andrej said:

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 2:35 PM, Yates. said:

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 2:23 PM, Andrej said:

Do you guys think as a wolf Leelou would be more likely to call a post neutral or accept the villagery praise for it?

She would call it like she sees it. You can learn a lot from a hydra.

Cool, I'll take that into consideration. In a vacuum I think that sort of thing is more villagery than anything though.

 

Further explanation from me describing how I found Leelou saying the post wasn't alignment indicative to be more of a positive than negative sign.

 

  On 11/10/2014 at 8:26 PM, Andrej said:

@Darthe - I just found his line of questioning odd for a behavior I think would be more heavily associated with a villager mindset. I don't really see wolves discrediting easy townie brownies

 

My response to Darthe regarding Barm, which you mentioned in another one of your posts.

 

 

 

 

Also - as far as you not liking my post there isn't much else I can say to you about that besides 'too bad', I guess. Do you think the logic behind my vote was bad? Did you misunderstand or misinterpret somehow? At the moment I don't really like the commentary you're making towards me because I don't think it's very factual or accurate to how events actually unfolded. 

 

[Andrej]

  On 11/12/2014 at 12:45 AM, Despothera said:

@AJ: Thing is, subtlety is a thing that exists in mafia. Scum can defend someone in the pretext that they're actually attacking someone else, but again, chainsaw defending is still defending. It IS a semantics argument, which is why it's so blah to hear people go through all the time

 

Yeah I get it but I also find Verb's explanation a plausible one. It helps that it's also one I agreed with. I think how Kiv handled it was kind of bad too because he instantly turned it around on Verb to make him look bad instead of acknowledging the *FACT* Verb presented in that everyone who could NK this game doesn't have to be scum.

 

Do you think Kiv had a good reason to vote Sili at the time?