[Standard] 11/10 Top Tier Vanilla+ Game Thread

[Cass]

*Jumps back in, catches up (to page 24)*

 

It's been mentioned a couple of times now that I might be difficult to read and form opinions of 'cos I'm new and haven't provided much for others to go on yet, so I'm gonna jump in and try and address those issues real soon. I'll leave the complicated analyses/first impressions/gut reads/opinions of certain posts and things for tomorrow, sometime after I've had a decent sleep and can (hopefully) coordinate my hunches and gut feelings into sentences and formats that make sense/get me off your null lists.

 

For now I'll just start with introducing myself and ... stuff... so that y'all at have at least something to go by.

 

Importantly, I am really new to this. I know none of the unstated rules. Apart from a last-minute turbo game that mentorbat threw me into for training two days ago (yes, he really did (!) no, I did not do overly well, yes it was insanely fun   ), this is my first ever mafia game. I'm nervous.

 

Second thing is I thrive on a good mental challenge and I'm a bit of a perfectionist. I think it's going to be an annoying combination. I'm already over-analysing everything. EVERYTHING. I actually have notes . And notes on my notes. And I get way too wordy, all the time. 

 

Third is I'm generally friendly and good for a laugh and it takes a lot to get me ruffled. If you're coming at me directly I'm fairly confident I'll be able to clear the air (come at me, bro!!). Hopefully my reads will be ok enough to move the game forward in time. But to this point it's been that first step, not knowing how to put myself out there to an unknown audience and manage to avoid possible mislynching due to reasons as 'stupid' as being new that has held me back... (What if I don't post anything and they think that I'm 'wilfing'? What if I post too much too soon and they think I'm trying something that I'm not? Who are these people? - when is too soon? - Are they playing for real yet, or not? Aaaaahhhh!) *g*  

 

My flippant approach yesterday (#126) (and earlier in the signup thread) was a bit of a flop at engaging real interaction with anyone I didn't know, hopefully this one and the (more game-theory-related) stuff tomorrow is enough to get the ball rolling - now that I can see beyond doubt that the game has got to the serious stuff, I'm looking forward to settling in and playing with y'all for real. And yes, I know, it's more about show than tell (Thanks, monstr  , I'll get to that part tomorrow).

 

In the meantime, Yates, Desp, thanks for voicing that I'm on your null lists and 'forcing' me to write this post.

 

Dice, *hugs*, you big blue cockroach (Aussie interstate rivalry for those who didn't know) - unvote me!!

[Arsis]

Des is trying to make up for hardclearing me as scum in thst dyel game by calling me scum in every game since. Des has never once actually been right about my alignment.

[Thane Vakarian]

 

For the moment, the people on my to watch list are Sili, Arsis, Darthe. I think i've said so before.

 

Tress, the fact that you call me the cursed one amuses me

Why me just because des said so?

 

Nope, because my gut tells me so. And it's nice of you to comment immediately.. Hiding anything?

[Sili Quirrels]

 

 

Re: the bolded.

 

Problem is that due to the lynch rules in this game, your votes DO matter this early on, or they can if there's a tie at EOD.  You vote someone, a few other people vote, even if you unvote later, as long as they haven't lost the lead when deadline hits that "enhancing a wagon" bit you think doesn't matter could be the difference in who dies.

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't vote, by any means, but don't make the mistake of thinking your vote doesn't matter this early, because it very well can.

 

I'm sure if this hypothetical wagon is driven by villagers it'll have votes in and out of it up until eod due to itt gameplay rather than wagon-size and peer pressure. And if town is actually incompetent enough to vote for the biggest wagon for no other reason than apparent popular support in the vote counts, and not adjust their reads for itt road-bumps like me removing my vote, then town is going to lose with or without my vote in the first place.

 

 

Please don't start the "town is so awful" crap. I'm seriously asking you nicely. It is absurdly and profoundly obnoxious when you do so.

 

If Songstress is right and town hypes every wagon with more than 2 people on it, in vote counts, to a majority lynch solely because of the number of people it had to start with, then they've stopped analyzing gameplay and have already lost.

[Sili Quirrels]

Thane why have you betrayed me? I thought we had an implicit pact to make it through to day 3 together.

[Arsis]

 

 

 

For the moment, the people on my to watch list are Sili, Arsis, Darthe. I think i've said so before.

 

Tress, the fact that you call me the cursed one amuses me

Why me just because des said so?

Nope, because my gut tells me so. And it's nice of you to comment immediately.. Hiding anything?

 

I'm a closeted homosexual.

[Sili Quirrels]

Tommy asked me to do the VC today, seeing i was top poster yesterday, so that's what i do...

 

Other than that, i'm still trying to make sense of the game. I do feel comfortable with where my vote is. Sili received minor pressure and goes on the seer-cover train (which had been explained in reference to Yates before) Could have been to get more towncred by him.

I don't really think like that. A seer claim is null. Definitely couldn't get away with passing it off as anything but null with people like wombat and pdr and arsis, etc. around.

[Thane Vakarian]

Thane why have you betrayed me? I thought we had an implicit pact to make it through to day 3 together.

we did? You need to do a bit better to convince me you're town then. I can unvote you after that, and you can happily continue while i still get lynched D1. *nods*

 

 

 

 

For the moment, the people on my to watch list are Sili, Arsis, Darthe. I think i've said so before.

 

Tress, the fact that you call me the cursed one amuses me

Why me just because des said so?

Nope, because my gut tells me so. And it's nice of you to comment immediately.. Hiding anything?

 

I'm a closeted homosexual.

 

interesting.... but not game relevant

[Kivam]

RECAP

 

Page 7: Spam at the top.  Cass shows up again, posts nothing, and then says she'll disappear again.  (I'll take Radar Avoidance for $200, Alex).  Arsis takes a run at Yates. Yates defends.  VERBarm turns it into a joke and Andrej LOLs.  Yates reclaims Seer, reiterates that Dice is town.  Andrej says he's bothered by Yates' Amigos reference, but will ignore it (what?).  Andrej half-claims, IDs Stelio as town.  Krak shows up.  I show up, butcher the vote tags.

 

Page 8: Spam. Arsis votes VERBarm for spidey-memes.  VerBARM votes Thane for a good reason (spamming even after the game has started to be a game).  Krak jokes about Leelou's "neither town nor scum" post as a SK tell.  Thane gets very defensive (-1, yet again).  Leelou explains her Spidey-meme tell.  Songstress makes an appearance

 

Still loving my scum list through 8 pages.  Have seen nothing townsided from them.

 

Page 9:  Spidey-meme discussion between VERBarm, Leelou, Arsis. DesLAMI spam continues, then DESlami posts content.  His top scum reads are Darthe, Yates and Thane; 2 of those are on my list and the third is definitely on the radar through page 9, so I'm liking this post.  On the other hand, his read of Andrej seems way off; ignores or misses overtly scummy play.  Nyn responds to a Des request, says she has a town lean on Wombat so far.  I agree, so points for Nyn.

 

Page 10: What the hell does "ITT" mean?  Seen it come up a few times now.  More spam, spidey-meme discussion (pointless.  Once called out, there was no chance VERBarm would have lived up to the tell.  People need to learn when to shut the hell up and watch, and when to speak up.  If you really thought this was a tell, calling him on it before it had a chance to fully develop was the worst play you could make. [Don't mean to be harsh. But damn ...]).  DESlami gives Nyn points for her Wombat response.  Thane recalls his All Hydra Mafia^tm thought, wonders why it was ignored.  DESlami calls it scum-bait. (Again, agreeing with most of DESlami's reads here).  VERBarm says he skims Thane.  Thane says it was a "reaction test" (not a very effective one; no drama at all). Then reads the "reactions" to nobody reacting until he asked for reactions.  (Again, do not like).  VERBarm asks Thane about his test results.  Thane says he finds DESLAMI's reaction (DES reacting, Salami not) off.  

 

Page 11: DesLAMI explains why no reaction (Thane's post was too random and undramatic for him to care about it. Makes sense to me). VerBARM calls Thane out on defensiveness, spamming, bad defense.  (I like this post).  DesLAMI defends Thane's spam.  Arsis, VERBarm, Thane talk about Thane's "Day 1 lynchbait" status.  Thane says he's done spamming "I'm here now, so, if you're town, let's find some scum together, ok?" (Given later behavior as I remember it - will see if memory is accurate on reread, but Wombat's currently ragging on Thane for this so I think it is - this sticks out as scummy as hell).  DesLAMI asks Thane for reads, Thane says DESlami is taking easy angles.  (Thane - if you had a read already, why wait to be asked for it?).  Nyn calls everyone out for meta-ing Thane (+1). 

 

Page 12: Thane asks VerBARM for reads.  Arsis calls out Nyn as opportunistically attacking Thane (-1; did not read Nyn's posts as attacking Thane at all).  Nyn explains herself well (+1).  Krak calls out Nyn's post as townsided (+1, -1 = null tell).  Stelio checks in, dismisses almost all that's gone before as irrelevant (way to put some effort into the game!), questions VerBARM and Darthe's reaction to the 'Sup post.  Arsis defends meta-ing Thane as "an easy day 1 mislynch to be pushed by scum" (-1).  Yates agrees with DesLAMI, has a town read on Thane.  Krak calls Thane a lazy D1 lynch.  Arsis goes on a bit more about why he questions an "easy" day 1 lynch. I like this post.  (+1 to bring him back to null on this whole exchange).  Nyn hasn't seen anything bothersome from Thane so far.  Thane says he expects mafia to be among his defenders to gain towncred (+1 on this; first townsided point I've seen from him).  VerBARM likes Arsis, not Darthe

 

Andrej still way in the scumometer lead thus far.  Concerned about the number of players flying under the radar through p12.  Thane is slipping down the list but not off it entirely.  Feeling fairly decent about VerBarm and DesLami, Wombat seems solid town, and Arsis is a little worrisome while Nyn is a little not (@Nyn - you saw nothing scummy in Thane's early play?). 

[hazelkrs1]

Des is trying to make up for hardclearing me as scum in thst dyel game by calling me scum in every game since. Des has never once actually been right about my alignment.

 

Seeing as how we've only played a few games together so far, this doesn't bother me that much.

 

 

 

 

Please don't start the "town is so awful" crap. I'm seriously asking you nicely. It is absurdly and profoundly obnoxious when you do so.

 

If Songstress is right and town hypes every wagon with more than 2 people on it, in vote counts, to a majority lynch solely because of the number of people it had to start with, then they've stopped analyzing gameplay and have already lost.

 

 

You still don't need to be talking about how awful town is here and how there's no chance town wins until 1) town IS actually playing badly as a collective and 2) More importantly, you have more games under your belt and can talk from the position of someone who is BETTER than collective derptowns.

 

Simply put, you're a newer player that is constantly trying to disparage the general play of players here, and it's close to intolerable.

 

Take a page from Cass and try ENDEARING yourself to us, for the love of God. Just stay far, far away from any post that resembles "town sucks" for a while, please.

[Sili Quirrels]

we did? You need to do a bit better to convince me you're town then. I can unvote you after that, and you can happily continue while i still get lynched D1. *nods*

 

I'm not sure how to do that I'm afraid. I'm at a loss

[Thane Vakarian]

Kivam, just wanted to mention that i like the way you post. Doesn't necessarily clear you as 100% town, but you put your thoughts out there, clearly written. 

[hazelkrs1]

Kivam ITT means In The Thread

[Barmacral]

Second thing is I thrive on a good mental challenge and I'm a bit of a perfectionist. I think it's going to be an annoying combination. I'm already over-analysing everything. EVERYTHING. I actually have notes . And notes on my notes. And I get way too wordy, all the time.

 

Notes are a wonderful thing, it is a wonder I haven't used them much before.

 

If Songstress is right and town hypes every wagon with more than 2 people on it, in vote counts, to a majority lynch solely because of the number of people it had to start with, then they've stopped analyzing gameplay and have already lost.

 

Except not a single thing you've said about bad towns makes Songstress wrong.

[Sili Quirrels]

You still don't need to be talking about how awful town is here and how there's no chance town wins until 1) town IS actually playing badly as a collective and 2) More importantly, you have more games under your belt and can talk from the position of someone who is BETTER than collective derptowns.

 

Simply put, you're a newer player that is constantly trying to disparage the general play of players here, and it's close to intolerable.

 

Take a page from Cass and try ENDEARING yourself to us, for the love of God. Just stay far, far away from any post that resembles "town sucks" for a while, please.

 

 

I'm not and haven't said this game that this town is derping or daft. I said for songstress' argument to be valid, they would need to be. And my response is/was I don't give a damn. A town that is as uninspiring as songstress makes them out to be will lose, period. If such a town were to exist, and if I were to play on it, I would sub out long before it got eod1 and were they to ask I would tell them the honest truth: they suck.

 

Fyi, the next time you blatantly misinterpret my words and accost me over nothing I'm going to ignore you. This type of thing really isn't worth anyone's time.

[Sili Quirrels]

Except not a single thing you've said about bad towns makes Songstress wrong.

 

 

Meaning a bad town makes the mistakes songstress says they make?

 

I wasn't discussing the probability of such a scenario. I said at the very beginning I'm sure it's fine, but that even in the unrealistic worst case scenario it doesn't matter all that much.

[WWWwombat]

Tress' argument is valid regardless as it relies only on the lynch rules.  Take a stand, Sili.

[Songstress]

 

You still don't need to be talking about how awful town is here and how there's no chance town wins until 1) town IS actually playing badly as a collective and 2) More importantly, you have more games under your belt and can talk from the position of someone who is BETTER than collective derptowns.

 

Simply put, you're a newer player that is constantly trying to disparage the general play of players here, and it's close to intolerable.

 

Take a page from Cass and try ENDEARING yourself to us, for the love of God. Just stay far, far away from any post that resembles "town sucks" for a while, please.

 

 

I'm not and haven't said this game that this town is derping or daft. I said for songstress' argument to be valid, they would need to be. And my response is/was I don't give a damn. A town that is as uninspiring as songstress makes them out to be will lose, period. If such a town were to exist, and if I were to play on it, I would sub out long before it got eod1 and were they to ask I would tell them the honest truth: they suck.

 

Fyi, the next time you blatantly misinterpret my words and accost me over nothing I'm going to ignore you. This type of thing really isn't worth anyone's time.

 

 

This is the second time you're characterized (ooh, and a third) what I said to you as implying bad town play.   I'm not keen on your characterization there - what I was saying was a caution to you not to act like your vote is meaningless early in the game.  What the rest of the game does is what it is, you can only control your own vote - but your vote is more strategic here than in the standard hammer or hybrid hammer scenario.

[hazelkrs1]

Town wouldn't have to be "uninspiring" for Tress' advice to be valid- it's all situational

 

If a vote ended up being close, and someone accidentally didn't take into account that a train had someone that recently unvoted and blah blah blah there ended up being a tie, IT DOESN'T MAKE IT SO THAT TOWN WAS AWFUL THERE. It just means a very small amount of people (maybe even one) would have missed something.

 

Anyways Tress' point was honestly kind of minor here. Your vote SHOULD carry weight behind it because if it doesn't to you, then scum have NO reason to fear you pressuring them if you ARE town, and can just laugh off your weakling vote.

 

It's funny how often you like to criticize bad towns, and yet YOUR play isn't top notch here if you think not caring where your vote lands is optimal play.

[hazelkrs1]

I'm just going to say my last peace on this discussion-

 

Your vote should NEVER be meaningless if you're town. Town's singular best weapon is the lynch, and every vote from town helps to collectively push forward the "right" lynch. Furthermore your vote is also your signal to others of how your suspicions lay, sort of a "put your money where your mouth is" thing, and using it in the correct manner can help signal your fellow townies that you in fact, are town as well.

 

Sili your ambivalent attitude towards your vote is just dumb. Please stop trying to defend an indefensible position.

 

There DPR. NOW you can say I was "shaming" someone for their play.

 

[csarmi]

 

Gonna go ahead and do an early POE cause WHY NOT, AMIRITE?

 

Nulls (either haven't posted or haven't posted enough for me to get a firm read on):

 

Cass

DPR

Rags

Tress

Hallia

 

Blues (I know, a bit early for this, but hey, I also have the right to change my mind):

 

Nyn

AJ

Leelou

Wombat

Thane

 

I've had some mindmelds with Nyn early on, and I feel that she is genuinely trying to develop reads on players- if she was scum she could have either used those WKing Thane about his mislynch past to try and push him as a suspect, or else hedge more on him later instead of townreading him. AJ has looked good in general so far, and he's a bit associative as well considering Sili's scummy handling of him. Leelou is active and pointing out stuff I think a town!Leelou would be likely to, and isn't lurking when she gets attention or anything, quite the opposite. Wombat looks good for some stuff early on, looks good for the manner in which he is questioning Yates, the only thing I don't like is his vote on Nyn but I can see where he's coming from there (that Nyn could be scum wasting time on arguing on pointless manners) I just don't think he's correct. Thane looked questionable at first, but now seems to be replying in a Thane-y sort of way, and I feel that the way Arsis is WKing him is more likely a w/v relationship (that scum!Arsis is defending town!Thane)

 

Greens (still feel town on, but would be much more open to changing my mind on these):

 

Krak

Kivam

Stelio

Verb/Barm

 

I first off disagree with my hydra head that a vote on Krak at this point is wise- he isn't that reactive, or active really, most the time so meh. I also liked Krak pointing out that post of Nyn's and saying it was townie. Light townie points for that since I don't see the scum motivation in doing that if Nyn is town like I think she is. Kivam is a bit associative, I think some people are trying to dismiss or discredit him as an old fossil. Kivam was always on the leading edge of mafia back when he played more often, and none of the newer trends like tonereading or anything will be difficult for him to get comfortable with imo. Stelio looks good for a newer player in this environment, and already looks willing to dip his toes in the water. Barm's posting looks better than Verb's imo, but Verb has read as town for my gut as well.

 

Oranges (slight scum reads, but more wary and willing to reconsider):

 

Dice

Yates

 

Dice is here mainly cause of his OP, and then eh it's weak but the simple smiley emotes from him in response to Yates' stuff about the three amigos and whatnot seemed kinda meh for him. Would expect him to espouse more on that sort of thing. Yates looks slightly wolfy for acting self-conscious about the three amigos thing, and also defensive when others react in what seems to me like a natural way to react to what he's saying

 

Reds (strongest scum reads, would be very much willing to lynch any of this group):

 

Darthe

Sili

Arsis

 

Darthe looks like he's trying to force a casual tone in his posts, and also got a bit too wordy when talking to Sili, I agree with Barm that that could have been w/w "coaching" ITT (as a way of kind of distancing that he's coaching him in the QT). I also didn't like all the hedging talk on hydra heads- Darthe has plenty of experience with hydras so that talk seemed mega wolfy coming from him. Sili looks turrible so far. Admitting to not having any context to a vote so obviously doesn't make it less scummy. Also don't like him bringing up his own meta in self-defense. Arsis looks mega opportunistic with his push on Nyn, I don't like his WKing of Thane, and his justification for said WKing (Thane being "seriously pushed" on page 2) doesn't hold up either

 

I want to start off by saying I'm having a pretty serious case of mindmeld with Despo today, which used to be a flashing red light sign.

 

Des, remember back in the good old days when the only way I knew you were town was if you said something outrageously slap-me-in-the-face scummy that made me want to lynch you pronto, and if I found myself nodding and agreeing with you you were almost certainly scum?  I really hope you haven't reverted to your old ways, because i'm liking how you're thinking overall so far.

 

I'm less confident on my reads than this POE, but find myself agreeing with many of them - the blues especially.  On the scum lean end of things, I am most in agreement with Sili, the others I am not sure enough to categorize without a full reread, and a lot more thinking.

 

 

Nah, he's town, I promise. Also hey Tress.

[csarmi]

Also, so these were the reads my hydra asked me about in the QT. Totally missed them. 

 

I like them, Nyn and Dice are null to me, Leelou down in green and Verb is light blue.

[Nynaeve]

I'm a closeted homosexual.

 

I don't buy it.

[Sili Quirrels]

 

 

You still don't need to be talking about how awful town is here and how there's no chance town wins until 1) town IS actually playing badly as a collective and 2) More importantly, you have more games under your belt and can talk from the position of someone who is BETTER than collective derptowns.

 

Simply put, you're a newer player that is constantly trying to disparage the general play of players here, and it's close to intolerable.

 

Take a page from Cass and try ENDEARING yourself to us, for the love of God. Just stay far, far away from any post that resembles "town sucks" for a while, please.

 

 

I'm not and haven't said this game that this town is derping or daft. I said for songstress' argument to be valid, they would need to be. And my response is/was I don't give a damn. A town that is as uninspiring as songstress makes them out to be will lose, period. If such a town were to exist, and if I were to play on it, I would sub out long before it got eod1 and were they to ask I would tell them the honest truth: they suck.

 

Fyi, the next time you blatantly misinterpret my words and accost me over nothing I'm going to ignore you. This type of thing really isn't worth anyone's time.

 

 

This is the second time you're characterized (ooh, and a third) what I said to you as implying bad town play.   I'm not keen on your characterization there - what I was saying was a caution to you not to act like your vote is meaningless early in the game.  What the rest of the game does is what it is, you can only control your own vote - but your vote is more strategic here than in the standard hammer or hybrid hammer scenario.

 

I don't see how my vote carries the kind of weight you seemed to imply in your first post (I believe I bolded the segment that pinged me). I do think it's not entirely unimportant as it can lend credence to a wagon and people will pay a little more attention if there is one more vote present, but at the end of the day people vote the way they do because they find some aspect of a wagon compelling. Ideal world: everyone adjusts their reads as we approach eod1 and lynch whomever we collectively feel is the best target. Large deviations from this... I think are rare? At the very least errant votes 2 days or so before eod shouldn't lead to any sort of mislynch barring some sort of shenanigans.

[Sili Quirrels]

Sili your ambivalent attitude towards your vote is just dumb. Please stop trying to defend an indefensible position.

 

I see.

 

##AJ

 

He pinged me early and I'm good with supporting a wagon on him.