[Standard] 11/10 Top Tier Vanilla+ Game Thread

[Thane Vakarian]

i looked at myself and thought: damn,you look good, you hot little townie....

 

And here's the price i pay for my shennanigans:

 

 

[b][color=#800080]Top Poster D1.7 Vote Count:[/color][/b]

[b]Nyn (3): Wombat [#399], Arsis [#416], Sili [#417][/b]
Sili (3): AJ [#67], Kivam [#362], Thane [#453]
Yates (1): Darthe [#508]
Cass (1): Dicefrogger [#287]
Darthe (1): Deslami [#483]

Unvote (1): Verbarm [#243]

Not Voting (10): Cass, DPR, Hallia, Krak, Leelou, Nyn, Stelio, Rags, Tress, Yates

[b]At the gallows: Nyn[/b]

[img=http://www.pending.me.uk/cdc/pin2_1415930400.png]

 

[Thane Vakarian]

and ofcourse, nothing works, hah.... darnit

[Thane Vakarian]

Top Poster D1.71 Vote Count:

Nyn (3): Wombat [#399], Arsis [#416], Sili [#417]
Sili (3): AJ [#67], Kivam [#362], Thane [#453]
Yates (1): Darthe [#508]
Cass (1): Dicefrogger [#287]
Darthe (1): Deslami [#483]

Unvote (1): Verbarm [#243]

Not Voting (10): Cass, DPR, Hallia, Krak, Leelou, Nyn, Stelio, Rags, Tress, Yates

At the gallows: Nyn

[DPR]

I don't deny that I tunnel people, but if I'm tunneling scum, it's good for town, and likewise scum would rather dismiss my suspicions as the ramblings of a crazy tunneler

 

DPR evading my questioning is noted btw.

 

Your first sentence reads to me as "I don't deny that I do what I feel like at the time, but when it works it works and the people that it doesn't work for are going to complain about it." It does not speak of team play, but rather of personal motivation and IMO, offers a scant chance of success at best (especially D1) and a ton of confusion for the town to sort through at worst. 

 

And it's already been noted because I noted it.

 

 

 

 

Holy crap Kivam can quote!

 

 

Also, "defending/not defending" argument is boring imo. So very tomato/tomato (what? You say tomayto/tomahto, I say tomato/tomato)

 

Also, telling everyone that you don't deny using a controversial technique (see tunneling quote above) but then dismissing another player's suggestion of basic logic as boring is just not townish.

 

In the last few hours I've twice called you out for attempting to shame players. Can you explain why you are doing this, especially on D1?  

 

I'd like to put this "let's not cheat" post to bed by pointing out the logic implied by Des's summation here:

Look at the whole #Alliance thing. If one of that group rolls scum, you think they'll back down from forming a "town" power core with the other members of it who are actually town? Hell to the nah. They'll act like they're ready to #alliance it up just like normal.

Des basically just stated why me saying up front that we can't play that way is a Town null tell. If I'm scum? Why not abuse it since I *DIDN'T* get a chance to say it pregame? I gain nothing as scum pointing this out and instead make myself a huge suspect - at least in AJ and Dice's eyes. So there is zero scum motivation for making this post.

 

My Town personal motivation is obviously because I actually care about the integrity of the game. Which was my stated motivation in my original post.  Okay?  Good?  Good.

 

This post concerns me a great deal. Yates, you are an experienced player (who is not afraid to go for a big play on D1) and in that light, anything you say can be read into as a play. You know this as well as the others who have commented on it. In that light, it bugs me that you decided to make your 3 Amigos post before anyone asked - it wasn't a thing before you made it a thing, and that speaks of play-building. You throw in a Seer claim on top of that and then in the post directly above try to explain how we should take that as null tell, your argument being that you have no motivation to claim Seer as mafia. This strikes me as misdirection.

 

The feast that Des chimed in with his explanation of "Seer Cover" can be taken as support of a teammate, as can his soothing "nothing to see here" post below.

 

 

 

I'd like to put this "let's not cheat" post to bed by pointing out the logic implied by Des's summation here:

Look at the whole #Alliance thing. If one of that group rolls scum, you think they'll back down from forming a "town" power core with the other members of it who are actually town? Hell to the nah. They'll act like they're ready to #alliance it up just like normal.

Des basically just stated why me saying up front that we can't play that way is a Town null tell. If I'm scum? Why not abuse it since I *DIDN'T* get a chance to say it pregame? I gain nothing as scum pointing this out and instead make myself a huge suspect - at least in AJ and Dice's eyes. So there is zero scum motivation for making this post.

 

My Town personal motivation is obviously because I actually care about the integrity of the game. Which was my stated motivation in my original post. Okay? Good? Good.

The only caveat here is that you COULD be scum and ALSO value the "integrity" of the "Three Amigos/soulread with Dice" thing, and wanted to preempt AJ and Dice being able to use that against you.

 

 

As stated above, this reads to me like more cover of the "cover". No one is really sweating Yates, so why all the dancing? 

[Arsis]

 

 

 

Ok, but this is mafia. Inside jokes are not sacred. Neither are warder bonds.

Why are we even still talking about this? It went beyond "inside joke" in the last game and became borderline cheating. Period. That's it. Yeah, I wish I knew this game was starting sooner. If I had known, I would have said something in the signup thread rather than wait for the current game to finish. But we typically did this in our first couple of posts in the previous games so I felt like putting the kaibosh on it. Otherwise I would have had weigh subbing out.

 

If ANYONE should find me scummy for pointing it out, it's Dice and AJ. This doesn't concern you. And since the meat of this argument is from an ongoing game I'm done talking about it and you just have to wait for the game to finish - as I told Verb - if you feel like you need me to be more specific.

 

Frankly, harping on an outside the thread "tell" that you have no part of looks like scum trying to push an angle you don't even fully understand because you know I can't be specific yet.

Yates I don't like you trying to fos Wombat over a pretty natural reaction to what you said.

 

Also, I don't think the "inside joke" was anywhere near cheating imo. If, as scum, you would be uncomfortable in lying to someone in ANY context, no matter what the inside joke or reference or w/e is, then you're just bad scum. This is mafia. Anything goes (well, to a degree, we've had discussions about how lying about rl is kinda crappy to do period). I don't care if I had some kind of running thing with someone that we repeated in multiple games we were town together or something- if I roll scum, I will GLADLY abuse that same thing to make others think I'm town, and anyone that wouldn't well, is kinda touting integrity in a false manner imo.

 

Look at the whole #Alliance thing. If one of that group rolls scum, you think they'll back down from forming a "town" power core with the other members of it who are actually town? Hell to the nah. They'll act like they're ready to #alliance it up just like normal.

 

Acting like any friendship or bond between someone makes you somehow above abusing said bond or relationship in mafia is disingenuous imo, cause anyone who was actually hurt by that kind of action just shouldn't play mafia. You're MEANT to break the biggest bonds of trust between you and other players if you're mafia, and not doing so is ~playing against your wincon

Yeah, wombat ~number 1 scum.

 

vote today or else lose your chapels. ##wombat

 

(have no idea what the context behind my vote is. Just doing it cause I think aj is scum and wombat is by association :3)

What? Me?

 

I'm voting wombat partly because i haven't developed a read of him and partly because his communication with aj pinged me the wrong way.

 

Doesn't mean I want to lynch him.

.....

Okay, this is good. Now, how do we go about confirming you're scum? The simplest way is to lynch or night kill, but these have negative repercussions in the off chance you're town. ________________ You have the ability to nk? [V]##sili [/v]

I retract my earlier thing Kivam, the _______ part makes it pretty clear now at least what you're saying

Lolz Kivam is used to a DM where that sort of technicality would have gained traction. Should be fun to see how he manages. Is Barm getting caught up on all of that by Verb off thread?

Don't like the way Darthe discredits Kivam here. What others said is a lot more valid, about how there ARE town NK's in this setup so Sili's post wasn't necessarily a scumslip, which is how Kivam's post kind of implied. HOWEVER, Darthe saying that technicality wouldn't gain traction, in that dismissive tone of his, def makes me think Sili/Darthe could be scumbros

 

 

The one that fails to do what you say town people naturally end up doing. Where you try to provide cover for sili in the guise of teaching.

 

There's no making up for the bias represented here. Good talk.

Ewwwwww. What bias?

[unvote] [v] ##nyn[/v]

 

 

My biggest scum read so far.

[v[##nyn[/v]

^^^Incredibly opportunistic votes. Arsis fos's and argues with Nyn a bit, but doesn't actually vote her until Wombat does so, and then Sili attempts to hop on the bandwagon after already saying his vote doesn't represent any intent to lynch anyone (which is scummy as hell btw)

I'm catching up. I said in the sign up thread that Monday is a bad day for me participation wise. I was on my phone at work and that was the first opportunity I had to vote.

[Sili Quirrels]

 

I'd like to put this "let's not cheat" post to bed by pointing out the logic implied by Des's summation here:

Look at the whole #Alliance thing. If one of that group rolls scum, you think they'll back down from forming a "town" power core with the other members of it who are actually town? Hell to the nah. They'll act like they're ready to #alliance it up just like normal.

Des basically just stated why me saying up front that we can't play that way is a Town null tell. If I'm scum? Why not abuse it since I *DIDN'T* get a chance to say it pregame? I gain nothing as scum pointing this out and instead make myself a huge suspect - at least in AJ and Dice's eyes. So there is zero scum motivation for making this post.

 

My Town personal motivation is obviously because I actually care about the integrity of the game. Which was my stated motivation in my original post.  Okay?  Good?  Good.

I'm usually a Yatesbro til D2 at least but this is just off.  I don't see him catering to a point that someone else is belaboring if it doesn't actively affect his reads list this early.  

 

[unvote] [v] ##Yates [/v]

 

I don't know about catering or anything itt. but he went on and on about this exact point for like 60 or 80 pages in the marlfox game.

[Nynaeve]

No talking about an ongoing game.

[Sili Quirrels]

Seer claim. Town result on nyn.

[Yates]

You throw in a Seer claim on top of that and then in the post directly above try to explain how we should take that as null tell, your argument being that you have no motivation to claim Seer as mafia. This strikes me as misdirection.

I think you misread that. Your italics are wrong.

[Nynaeve]

Seer claim. Town result on nyn.

lmao

[Thane Vakarian]

lol, yeah.... not buying it Sili

[Thane Vakarian]

so, we have two direct claims for Seer: Yates and Sili....

 

Anybody up for competing trains, or too early?

[Yates]

so, we have two direct claims for Seer: Yates and Sili....

 

Anybody up for competing trains, or too early?

LOL - that's not how you do that, Thane. Go look at the VS game.

[DPR]

 

You throw in a Seer claim on top of that and then in the post directly above try to explain how we should take that as null tell, your argument being that you have no motivation to claim Seer as mafia. This strikes me as misdirection.

I think you misread that. Your italics are wrong.

 

 

You are correct, sir. In a moment of hast I confused your Seer claim with your 3A remark. I admit to the mistake.

[WWWwombat]

Page 23.  Des is 100% town.

[DPR]

*haste.

 

It's contagious. 

[WWWwombat]

C wut I did thar?

[Arsis]

Alright, I'm caught up.

 

Dpr is either lock town or the best player I've ever seen.

 

Des looks like his normal self which is slightly townie for him.

 

Yates looks bad. If it's said in thread it's relevant.

 

Darthe still looks bad to me.

 

Nyn still isn't actually playing. She is posting but I don't see any actual gameplay.

 

I'm happy with my vote.

[hazelkrs1]

Still the only Seer in the game.

 

Still have a Town result on Dice.

 

FTR - my Dice investigation was the result of a random role by mod since I didn't see my role until 2 hours after my NA was due - as evidenced by the time stamp of my first post. Thanks for asking about this very pertinent piece of information, btw.

 

I seriously seriously hope you didn't genuinely out yourself as the town Seer like this on D1.

 

 

Of course, you could have made up the last bit because you saw people were doubting the Seer claim so wanted to strengthen the Seer cover. Meh.

 

 

"If I was scum that would hold water on me"

 

Lolololololol

 

And pointing out that I've tunneled on you in the past IS discrediting me, essentially. I've also tunneled on you when you were scum, btw. Multiple times.

Your arguing that because you're accurate 25% of the time it validates the other 75%? 

 

 

 

No, I'm saying it's stupid of you to say that I'm only right on you if you're scum... it's like the 17th most ridiculous thing you've ever said in a mafia game. It would be the MOST ridiculous thing for most people, but you've said a lot of ridiculous things in mafia games.

 

So in a game where town doesn't know the alignment of other, you defend yourself by saying my argument would only be right if you were scum. WtfffffFF?????? How is that even an argument?

 

"You're only right about me if I'm scum"

 

#FullDarthe

 

It's like talking to a mound of pudding.

 

Christ Salami, no.  Obviously if I was mafia he would be right so his argument would be valid that he is tunneling scum and that it is beneficial to town for him to do so.  How can you possibly not understand that?

 

Because it makes zero sense

[Thane Vakarian]

 

so, we have two direct claims for Seer: Yates and Sili....

 

Anybody up for competing trains, or too early?

LOL - that's not how you do that, Thane. Go look at the VS game.

 

Yeah, i don't really look at other games, and my vote's already on Sili 

[WWWwombat]

@ despo

 

re OP   the first line was meant as an observation not a whinge but i guess you could take it either way. not sure it really matters tbh. I never understand people saying this person is scummy cause of how they said they were here.  its their first post. unless they do a Rand or unless you know each other well like verb/leelou i dunno what it tells anyone.

 

 

the three amigos thing.  i was going to not comment on this. but seeing as people keep bringing it up i will once only. 

I knew what he was saying. I knew why he was saying it. AJ totally got sold out by not playing along. and yates thing to me in marlfox gave me a read on him.

 

Could any of us abuse this? yes we could. but we choose not to.

 

Mafia doesn't HAVE to be about abusing every little thing you can.

 

 look at turin and ithi.  he buddys her no matter what but you can read him on it but what they NEVER do is go at each other. i cant think of a game where they even cased each other. Thats them keeping true to their bonded relationship. 

 

does that make sense? I hope so cause i wanna leave it behind now.

 

Mafia does have to be about abusing everything you can if you roll scum.  To do otherwise soils the integrity of the game.  You may think refusing to violate inside jokes as scum is honorable, but it is the exact opposite.

 

And Turin and Ithi are routinely blasted for their behavior with respect to each other so that is a terrible example.

 

Anyway, I'm not gonna push it cuz I'm null or town lean on all 3 of you anyway.

[Kivam]

RECAP^tm (thoughts are posted as they come up during the review, may have contradictions as the game progresses. Hydra speaker will be in all caps)

 

Page 1: Standard Day 1 BSing. Random votes from Sili (Thane), Salami (Thane) & Darthe (SalamI)

Page 2: Leelou's Sup, Supgate, Darthe accuses Leelou of being meta (don't see it as meta, but Leelou's reaction to Salami's throwaway post was weird, worth filing away, as is this whole interaction).

Page 3: Wombat calls out Darthe's post (+1).  Thane agrees (+1, -1 = null tell).  VerBARM asks why (really?).  Thane starts backfilling (-1).  (OK, maybe VerBARM's post had a point to it - intentional?). Wombat calls out Thane (+1).  DesLAMI agrees with Wombat (+1, -1 = null tell). Andrej tries to shift the discussion of Supgate back to Leelou (-1,000,000!  Super ping-y to me). Thane backfills some more (-1,000,000).

 

Reads to this point (will post after significant action):

 

Scummy (in order) - Thane, Andrej, Darthe

Town - Wombat, Leelou-ish (based on scum-reads above, their posts)

Eyes open (antenna up, but no read yet): VerBARM

 

Page 4: DesLAMI says something about Darthe, while saying nothing.  (Given DESlami's later Darthe focus, potential Gambit play?).  Andrej votes Sili out of nowhere.  ANDREJ - What was up with that? Ah. Next post (that whole thoughts as we go thing kills me again) - says the random (joke?) vote on Thane rubs him the wrong way.  Do not like this post at all.  Yates makes an obvious false cop claim (WIFOM? Is this how you guys play now?  Unless I'm missing something, I don't like this move at all). VERBarm begins to spam the thread (during active gameplay).  Darthe mildly calls out Andrej on VerBARM.  Thane questions the Yates move.  DesLAMI defends it as "standard seer cover".  Nyn posts some content, but not clear about who (pronoun madness!).

 

Page 5: A few people ask Nyn who she is talking about.  Leelou says anything Salami does that's scummy is a town tell.  Yates brings up the "3 Amigos/Soul Read" nonsense that will consume the thread later.  Darthe and VERBarm mildly call out Deslami.

 

Page 6: All Yates all the time.  Spam starts to take over.  Cass puts in an appearance (and promptly disappears again).  Thane posits a Verbarm Deslami Hydra Mafia. 

 

Posting this now before my computer crashes and eats part 1 of the recap.  Part 2 coming.

 

Really, really liking that top 3 list at the moment.  Andrej has stormed into the lead, lots of connections there too.  Let's see about the next 20 pages

 

[Songstress]

Sorry about the quietness last night... after being forced to start my day 4 hours earlier than normal and be subjected to a surprise pap smear before work (and how much fun that is, let me tell you), I got home to a complex-wide power outage, had to eat cold pizza by candlelight, and while waiting for the power to come back up got unbearably sleepy.

 

Going to try to find all the quotes I wanted to respond to this morning while catching up on my phone, then look back at yesterday to see if there was anything particularly pertinent there.  Bear with me for a bit.

[Sili Quirrels]

personally, i think pdr is town if only because i would want to enable desp if i were scum, not shoot him down.

 

the wifom town cred kind of isn't worth it.

[Nynaeve]

Nyn still isn't actually playing. She is posting but I don't see any actual gameplay.

 

I'm happy with my vote.

I think I feel rather okay about not meeting your standards. I am a classy gal after all.