Defining DM Mafia Roles and Balance

[Tommyrod]

 

 

I think it should be standard practice for doctors and roleblockers to not be allowed to target the same player on consecutive nights.

So what you're saying is it should be standard practice for a cop or doc who roleclaims to be dead in a maximum of two nights?

Yes.

 

Claiming should be double edged.

[Kivam]

 

 

I think it should be standard practice for doctors and roleblockers to not be allowed to target the same player on consecutive nights.

 

Maybe.  Follow the Cop and the mafia constantly stuffing the biggest town PR can get boring.  But I don't think that's the kind of thing that should be regulated for the most part.  It's also easy enough for a mod to discourage that kind of behavior in others ways, like Watchers.

 

 

I think it's a form of gamebreaking when a doc can self protect each night (or scum can roleblock the cop every night and keep them alive).

 

 

It's not gamebreaking.  It's just another mechanic the mod has to take into account when designing the game.  And not having a rule that prevents or mandates it forces the players to think about possibilities in game - which, ya know, is sort of the point of mafia

 

[Kivam]

 

 

I think it should be standard practice for doctors and roleblockers to not be allowed to target the same player on consecutive nights.

So what you're saying is it should be standard practice for a cop or doc who roleclaims to be dead in a maximum of two nights?

Yes.

 

Claiming should be double edged.

 

It always is

[Tommyrod]

Very rarely are games balanced for an invincible doc.

 

This is an elegant solution.

[Tommyrod]

Kivam: not really. I've seen plenty of invincible docs on DM. Follow the cop with a hidden doc that can protect each night is also gamebreaking.

 

Another solution is a Scum Claim Vig.

[Kivam]

A doc is a doc. A role blocker is a role blocker. If I want to toy around with the nuances of the role based on my style of modding and my personal signature then I will. I will not use a different role name because that discloses changes I make I dont want known.

 

My way of thinking allows every mod to approach their setup as they wish to. Each to their own as there are a ton of different opinions of what's fair, what's more balanced and so on. What is propsed in this thread agrees with some people but severly restricts the rest. Ergo I would never support it. Or follow it.

 

A mod's game is his own and a mod deserves just as much consideration as the players. A mod doesn't dedicate a ton of time, effort and thought to be dictated how to run his/her game.

 

Exactly.  Can you imagine how The Double Blind would have looked if the role details were known in advance?  Or even just that the roles were non-standard?

 

That doesn't mean mods shouldn't disclose those things to players if that's how they want their game to run.  It just means that they shouldn't have to if they don't.

[Tommyrod]

If you like mindbender games I could see the desire for autonomy.

 

Personally I can't stand them and would prefer to know in advance if the game will be confusing, because then I won't play.

[Kivam]

Very rarely are games balanced for an invincible doc.

 

This is an elegant solution.

 

No offense, but that's either bad modding or lazy thinking.  I've run more games than I can count with invincible docs.  Often, I've run them multiple times on multiple sites (or re-run them on the same site with a player exclusion if role details needed to be secret) and had them come out with victories for all sides with good play in all games.  Other than, perhaps, unkillable unlynchable scum (i.e. "scum always wins b/c he can't die), there is no such thing as a role that inherently makes a game unbalanced; you simply have to adjust the other variables accordingly

[Tommyrod]

What are your anti-broken-doc mechanisms when you mod?

 

And we have had several recent examples of broken or misunderstood mechanics used by mods -- so "that's lazy or bad" doesn't really help me. Practical solutions help me.

 

This thread is partially in response to these recent events.

[Kivam]

If you like mindbender games I could see the desire for autonomy.

 

Personally I can't stand them and would prefer to know in advance if the game will be confusing, because then I won't play.

Don't sign up for games with mods who have run "mindbenders" then; as a mod, I can't run a game where the roles are designed to be part of the puzzle if the players know from the outset whether the roles are standard (and vice versa; when I run a game with vanilla roles, part of the balance - if the player roster has played my games before - is that people are always keeping their eyes open for a twist that isn't there.  WIFOM isn't only for player v. player, you know :) )

[Kivam]

What are your anti-broken-doc mechanisms when you mod?

 

And we have had several recent examples of broken or misunderstood mechanics used by mods -- so "that's lazy or bad" doesn't really help me. Practical solutions help me.

 

This thread is partially in response to these recent events.

 

Depends on the game.  Might be added power to the scum team (in roles or numbers).  Might be added detriments to the town team (players who die together, insane cops, must-shoot vigilantes).  Might be pure randomness (redirectors, mirrors).  It's a confluence of factors that work together to create a balanced game, which is why I mentioned "bad modding" - the worst type of mod (not saying you, I've never seen how you mod) is the guy who thinks that the way to create balance is to simply insert off-setting roles.  Town has a lie detector?  Just give the scum a "silver tongue" who can avoid detection.  There, it's balanced, right?  Nope - just got scum heavy.  Blanacing a doc who can self-protect and/or serial protect requires an entire game design, so I can't really give you a paint by numbers answer.

[Kivam]

 

You know what's another cool way to avoid game mechanics influencing your playing? having a mental capacity bigger than a tea cup...

Nyn....  

 

Let's try to keep it civil and respectful please?

 

If I wanted to define the "issue" in the broadest possible definition?  It would be this; when a mod uses a role called "Commuter" and it doesn't act like a "Commuter," it's LIKE the mod is lying to the players and thus BASTARD modding.

 

For me, it's that simple.  

 

You can try saying the players are daft because they are entering a mafia game with certain expectations about how roles should work but you would be wrong.  The MODS are being daft by not adhering to standard definitions that are accepted across multiple forum mafia sites.  Period.  

 

You are LITERALLY saying that you are in support of changing the rules from game to game and trying to shrug it off as if the players just have to "deal with it" when each mod has "House Rules" that you don't know about.  Well, that's not how GAMES are supposed to work.  That's not fair.  And I think you know that.  

 

Something as fundamentally important as knowing what a "Commuter" is isn't giving the player base too much information.  You are simply defining a rule.  I don't think it's part of mafia to have to GUESS what a "Commuter" does any more than it's part of Monopoly to have to GUESS what happens if you land on "Free Parking."  

 

Sorry.  But on this issue I don't think you guys are right at all.  I think mods are being bastard [albeit unintentionally] in non-bastard games and I don't think that's fair.

 

 

You're right.  If I tell the players there is a commuter in the game but the role PM to the commuter says that he has the power to run people over on the highway as he commutes home each night (i.e. he's a vigilante, not a commuter, as that term is understood by the players) then I am bastard modding.  Of course, if I am bastard modding, I can't tell you that at the outset or it won't work.

 

But if you're talking about variations on a theme - a doc who can self-protect v. one who can't, a must-shoot vigilante v. a may-shoot vigilante - that's not bastard modding.  There's a difference, which is Nyn's point.  The definition of "doc" is "player who can protect" and anything beyond that is up to the mod ("a doc is a doc is a doc").

 

But there's a real simple solution to this: don't tell players what roles are in the game.

 

 

[Tommyrod]

I suggest having specific role restrictions for Basic games only, and not for other modes.

[Yates]

You're right.  If I tell the players there is a commuter in the game but the role PM to the commuter says that he has the power to run people over on the highway as he commutes home each night (i.e. he's a vigilante, not a commuter, as that term is understood by the players) then I am bastard modding.  Of course, if I am bastard modding, I can't tell you that at the outset or it won't work.

LOL - and this is the fundamental difference between you guys and the people playing the games. If there's going to be bastard modding? The mod ABSOLUTELY needs to tell the player base up front. If *I* sign up for a bastard mod game knowing it's going to be bastard? I can't cry when things go wacky. If I sign up for a NORMAL game and things go wacky? It's upsetting and demoralizing and cheating the players.

 

The definition of "doc" is "player who can protect" and anything beyond that is up to the mod ("a doc is a doc is a doc").

A player who can protect? You mean like a jail keeper? Or do you mean like a bodyguard? Or do you mean like a psychiatrist? Or do you mean like a firefighter? Or do you mean like a role blocker? Or do you mean like a reviver? Or do you mean like a Seraph Knight?

 

Why don't we just call all of the above "doctors?" Obviously, I'm being a bit hyperbolic here but I think you get my point. Again, look at the ROOT of where forum mafia came from. Everyone knew the roles and what they did, they just didn't know which roles were going to be drawn out of the hat. That doesn't make the game LESS fun. That just gives everyone in the game a base set of understood rules and parameters under which the game is played.

 

I would REALLY never want to play Marco Polo with anyone that doesn't understand this.  

[keyholder21]

Kivam!  Hi!

[Kivam]

Kivam!  Hi!

Hi

[Kivam]

 

You're right.  If I tell the players there is a commuter in the game but the role PM to the commuter says that he has the power to run people over on the highway as he commutes home each night (i.e. he's a vigilante, not a commuter, as that term is understood by the players) then I am bastard modding.  Of course, if I am bastard modding, I can't tell you that at the outset or it won't work.

LOL - and this is the fundamental difference between you guys and the people playing the games. If there's going to be bastard modding? The mod ABSOLUTELY needs to tell the player base up front. If *I* sign up for a bastard mod game knowing it's going to be bastard? I can't cry when things go wacky. If I sign up for a NORMAL game and things go wacky? It's upsetting and demoralizing and cheating the players.

 

The definition of "doc" is "player who can protect" and anything beyond that is up to the mod ("a doc is a doc is a doc").

A player who can protect? You mean like a jail keeper? Or do you mean like a bodyguard? Or do you mean like a psychiatrist? Or do you mean like a firefighter? Or do you mean like a role blocker? Or do you mean like a reviver? Or do you mean like a Seraph Knight?

 

Why don't we just call all of the above "doctors?" Obviously, I'm being a bit hyperbolic here but I think you get my point. Again, look at the ROOT of where forum mafia came from. Everyone knew the roles and what they did, they just didn't know which roles were going to be drawn out of the hat. That doesn't make the game LESS fun. That just gives everyone in the game a base set of understood rules and parameters under which the game is played.

 

I would REALLY never want to play Marco Polo with anyone that doesn't understand this.  

 

 

A Jailkeeper is a doctor (a Paranoid Doctor).  Most of those other roles are versions of a doctor; they have their own names for when a Mod wants to tell the player specifics of the role, but they don't need to be used.  A reviver and role blocker aren't protective roles (in that they don't relate inherently to kill attempts)

Re bastard modding, I guess it depends what you mean by bastardy.  I never lie to my players (I agree that if mod information is going to be unreliable, players need to know in advance that's a possibility).  But they may not know the full truth, either.

 

[Verbal32]

Is this where I try to hypnotize Kiv to come back and play?

[Verbal32]

.....ooooor I go read the other thread, see his signup, and bow before Leelou.

[Leelou]

.....ooooor I go read the other thread, see his signup, and bow before Leelou.

This

[Kivam]

 

 

You're right.  If I tell the players there is a commuter in the game but the role PM to the commuter says that he has the power to run people over on the highway as he commutes home each night (i.e. he's a vigilante, not a commuter, as that term is understood by the players) then I am bastard modding.  Of course, if I am bastard modding, I can't tell you that at the outset or it won't work.

LOL - and this is the fundamental difference between you guys and the people playing the games. If there's going to be bastard modding? The mod ABSOLUTELY needs to tell the player base up front. If *I* sign up for a bastard mod game knowing it's going to be bastard? I can't cry when things go wacky. If I sign up for a NORMAL game and things go wacky? It's upsetting and demoralizing and cheating the players.

 

The definition of "doc" is "player who can protect" and anything beyond that is up to the mod ("a doc is a doc is a doc").

A player who can protect? You mean like a jail keeper? Or do you mean like a bodyguard? Or do you mean like a psychiatrist? Or do you mean like a firefighter? Or do you mean like a role blocker? Or do you mean like a reviver? Or do you mean like a Seraph Knight?

 

Why don't we just call all of the above "doctors?" Obviously, I'm being a bit hyperbolic here but I think you get my point. Again, look at the ROOT of where forum mafia came from. Everyone knew the roles and what they did, they just didn't know which roles were going to be drawn out of the hat. That doesn't make the game LESS fun. That just gives everyone in the game a base set of understood rules and parameters under which the game is played.

 

I would REALLY never want to play Marco Polo with anyone that doesn't understand this.  

 

 

A Jailkeeper is a doctor (a Paranoid Doctor).  Most of those other roles are versions of a doctor; they have their own names for when a Mod wants to tell the player specifics of the role, but they don't need to be used.  A reviver and role blocker aren't protective roles (in that they don't relate inherently to kill attempts)

Re bastard modding, I guess it depends what you mean by bastardy.  I never lie to my players (I agree that if mod information is going to be unreliable, players need to know in advance that's a possibility).  But they may not know the full truth, either.

 

 

Yes, it is. Because you are slow.

 

Is this where I try to hypnotize Kiv to come back and play?

Like you need an excuse to do that

[Verbal32]

I'm just afraid it'll end with me sucking my thumb in the corner, looking for a blankie.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Again.

[Nolder]

Lots to respond to but I'm not gonna for the moment.

 

Right now I just want to say that I think we have two different kinds of people in the player base.

Those who like to know what they're in for, with defined roles and mechanics, who want guaranteed balance and no shenanigans.

And those who like to be creative with mafia and try to bend the roles and mechanics to create new and unique situations for novel experiences.

 

I don't see why we can't accommodate both sides here.

Especially since, and I made this argument previously, Basic games are for learning anyway.

Let that be the strictly defined games on DM that some people crave.

[Clovdyx]

 

You're right.  If I tell the players there is a commuter in the game but the role PM to the commuter says that he has the power to run people over on the highway as he commutes home each night (i.e. he's a vigilante, not a commuter, as that term is understood by the players) then I am bastard modding.  Of course, if I am bastard modding, I can't tell you that at the outset or it won't work.

LOL - and this is the fundamental difference between you guys and the people playing the games. If there's going to be bastard modding? The mod ABSOLUTELY needs to tell the player base up front. If *I* sign up for a bastard mod game knowing it's going to be bastard? I can't cry when things go wacky. If I sign up for a NORMAL game and things go wacky? It's upsetting and demoralizing and cheating the players.

 

This.  This.  And more importantly, this.

 

It's also important to make the distinction between giving players everything and bastard modding.  Hidden mechanic that your investigation has a 10% chance to come back wrong?  Not bastard modding - just keeping the game from being the same basic game every time.  Unless the game is specifically declared completely basic, no player should be upset by something like that.

 

Never giving them investigation results while secretly poisoning the target and giving the "cop" the WC of "you must have poisoned half the players alive in order to win" without telling them?  Bastard modding, and if I sign up for a game and that happens without you suggesting that complete BS mechanics like that possible...well, my words are going to be less than sweet.

[Alanna]

Remember that game Kivam ran where he told all of us we were the town cop? That was hilarious :P