[BASIC] Physics Mafia: GAME OVER, Town and Lenlo wins!

amegakure · March 22, 2014

jumpy questioning? where talking a total of two syllables. [bAre you that desperate for reactions?[/b]

I didn't know you and Kronos were on a team lol. Thanks for the heads up.

This is a game based on newtons principle, that every action gets an equal and opposite reaction. It's what you find in the after math of the reaction as to where your best evidence lies.

Defense at a prod. Noted.

Vote Chae

Your number 11. We all know what that means

We do?

11 according to my day 1 tradition is always scum. I've self voted and voted every single person to placed at that spot

However your jumpy questioning to an obvious joke vote is noted. Hmmmm

jumpy questioning? where talking a total of two syllables. Are you that desperate for reactions?

Reading through, I found this interesting. Defense of Kronos? Maybe.

you changed a word and threw in a maybe so you dont even have to take a stance on it.

Do you think im defending wolf or not.

do you think im scum or not

Do you disagree with all my post or just the ones referring to jack as scum.

Sedai · March 22, 2014

Ameg

Like I said. You cloud and dap are my top pool of scum suspects.

Lily also said it was weird she couldn't read me and started with a slight scum read on me. I haven't misrepped you or anyone else. I explain all my posts and where it comes from when I write them so it's pretty basic but if you can show me where I misrepresented you please do besides just saying I'm doing it. ^^

Kronos got replaced so I'm readjusting my reads. But I haven't been suspicious of Kronos all game. I'm suspicious of those jumping up and down at the slightest amount of push in his direction. (You, Desp, cloud, Nervo) Desp I've explained why I think he's town just hyped up on lynching a big name. Nervo I have a townie vibe on him.

Cloud has misquoted my posts and been really scummy.

1) the whole business of me saying no explanation votes are scummy. Yet people voting Nervo, who started by saying "weak" and giving no explanation and then coming back with the same thing everyone else hashed together, wasn't strong enough reason to vote him is contradictory to his line of logic.

2) his flippant votes and voting again without reason.

You've yet to alleviate any of my suspicions on you based on earlier posts

Same for dap. He hasn't done anything to really change my oppinion how ever he now seems to be taking a stance so I'm watching but still feeling a scum vibe.

Wombat is feeling so town to me it's ridiculous lol. And wombat hasn't been laying low he's posted and called out stuff.

- he also agrees and saw what I saw with Desp just voting me to lynch a name. So I wasn't the only one who saw it.

Nolder is making sense and concise posts. I don't have a feeling one way or the other.

Got a townie vibe on Lenlo

Leaning town on lils <3

X needs to post more. I'm feeling a scum vibe there, and it's also worth noting you said wombat and Kronos was laying low but not him. Which also raises my suspicions of both of you.

Sedai · March 22, 2014

Night all

LilyElizabeth · March 22, 2014

Amega, let me get this straight. I'm buddying because I caught you buddying and Jack caught you, too? Ooooookay...

amegakure · March 22, 2014

it's not buddying to call out a prod lily. Your buddying because your hanging on to jack's coat tails and tagging along on his casing against me. you have made a handful of posts most lacking any sustance and the other half about your bad eyes and a vote on me with no real casing just say im scum cause im pushing on jack.

jack. X has stated twice he is out of the country. Im not inclined to believe he would lie and play outside of the game. im astonished that you would use that as tool to Fos me.

As for your misreps i will retrieve them either tonight or tomorrow.

Also btw what exactly are your suspicions against me besides "defending" kronos and going after you?

Guys I know a lot has happened, I wished to post to. I had to go out of country for a few days due to a sick relative. I've reached here, once I'm settled in here, I'll read up and post

Sedai · March 22, 2014

My bad. But you also were also disinclined to mention Kronos's replacement etc for his lack of being here ^^ so I figured what you say one way holds true on both accounts.

Sedai · March 22, 2014

And it's nearly midnight. I haz to sleepzzzzzz. Will address anything in the morning.

Nolder · March 22, 2014

Before I even dive into this post I just want to say that I don't appreciate the lack of clarification.

You asked me if I'd read a post and I asked you if you meant the one I linked to. Unless you were asking for rhetorical reasons I'd appreciate an answer because, no, I am not in the business of purposely misunderstanding people when I'm not scum so any implication that I am is one that I want to clear up.

You are claiming you don't want an essay.

But you don't want short sentences either.

No, I said I can understand the point of view of people who say that.

You can write all the essays you want at me.

My first vote on Jack was because I found his quoted "case" extremely weak, and said so when I voted.

But that's not what you said.

You merely quoted him and said weak and then voted.

You didn't specify what you found weak or why.

I'm sorry but there is a difference and that's exactly why Wombat voted/mocked you.

And I'm not going to be a dick here and just tell you you're wrong.

I want you to understand why this is important and I hope the new players read this as well because the entire debate in this thread has really run circles around this issue.

When you vote someone it needs to be clear why.

This is important because if townies aren't clear it gives scum a free pass not to be clear.

And when scum isn't clear bad things happen. Let's say down the line Jack was lynched or killed and he flips town.

And let's say someone comes back to your vote and says hey this guy was town and this vote isn't clear, can you clarify what was weak? Well now if you're town you'll clarify and maybe that will be enough but let's remember you could have just done that in the first place and been clear when you voted. Now let's say you're scum. Obviously the reason you voted would be because you thought you could ride a Jack train all the way to a lynch. You don't actually think he's scum because you're the scum and you know he's not the scum. So now you have free reign to make up any BS that sounds good. You can say X was weak, you can say Y was weak. You can even say you thought Jack was probably town but that HE was "weak" and so you didn't care if he was lynched or not. I'm not saying this is compelling stuff but the fact is you have options. Giving scum these options is bad. If you can nail them down to specific reasons you can hold them accountable and then you can lynch them.

It may not seem important because there's always a few guys who are cryptic and whatnot but if you ever experience a town that covers all the angles you'll see the difference it can make. It leads to better gameplay from both town and scum. And that's fun right?

when unclear I explained. Then he twisted the events, which I found scummy, and said so, so I changed my vote back to him. Then my vote didn't fit with your preference for exactly how long you want a vote, so you FoS me?

To reiterate from earlier.

It may be clear to you what you're saying but it's not always clear to everyone.

All you said was "wow man you're really twisting events here."

Is it so hard to take a minute to show/explain which events he's twisting for the benefit of everyone?

I mean if you could show me who knows maybe I'll agree and vote him you know? But just SAYING something holds little meaning in mafia. You have to prove your case or it's worthless to anyone but you. Well you and scum. Assuming you aren't scum in the first place.

I've seen some of the most helpful townies vote with a sentence, and I've seen scum make painfully long WoTs.

I'm not asking for an essay.

I'm just asking to understand.

Just put your thoughts out there, we're not mind readers you know?

Unless I'm just the scapegoat of a broader pet peeve of yours, in which case you can start a debate in the main forums if town should by default always write at least six sentences when casting a vote.

You're not a scapegoat and I'm not persecuting you.

I don't even have my vote on anyone. Don't bring out the poor me AtE defenses for this or yeah I probably will vote you.

I'm not casing you, we're having a conversation.

For both of my votes I've given an understanding where I'm coming from. If unclear to you, you are welcome to ask and I will respond in greater depth why said vote was cast. If you think that is scummy by default then fine, we'll agree to disagree on that.

Look, you didn't.

I'm not the only one who thinks so.

You can be stubborn and put it on us to chase you around for clarifications all the time or you can just admit that for most people one word or one sentence isn't normally enough to fully understand what you're saying and try to be clearer in the future.

Nolder · March 22, 2014

vote Vos

VOTE COUNT

WKB (1): Nol

Vos(4): Wombat, Jack, lily, Dap

Jack (4): Despo, Cloud, Vos, amega

Not Voting (6): X, Zanube, Len, Chael, WKB

*smirk

Again, why Vos?

You are like the 3rd person to ask.
Seriously it's explained in the last line of the post above the quoted.

Anyway I'm going to do a mini wot (I'll try keep it brief)

Be back soon

I'm sorry, I don't understand.

Are you referring to the smirk or something else?

Nolder · March 22, 2014

Nevermind Player I saw your reason in your WOT.

So you were just trying to make competing trains?

Ok. Wish you would have made that clearer from the beginning though.

I can already see this is going to be one of those games...

Nolder · March 22, 2014

i didnt say i want to lynch you as town. im saying your not proving your not scum yet.

And yes i think your scum, why shouldnt i. no one is above suspicion.

And if you can actually make a pertanint case agaisnt me proving im scum regardless of the fact that im town.

i'd be glad the info would probably lead to a lynch on you for being scum and all your scummy friends later on.

You can't prove a negative. That's dumb. The burden is on you to prove other people are scum, not on other people to prove they aren't.
If you think someone can just prove that they aren't scum then go ahead and do it, I'll be waiting.

Sure it is when it comes down to a few choices and town just cant decide it's usually the one who can prove they arnt scum that gets to live people also get Lock Cleared as off lately essentially proving they are not scum.

Now this is dumb. what do you think happen's when someone claims a pr.. pretty much proves they are not scum. especially in a basic game where a cc will get you lynched.

1. Ok so prove that it's possible by proving that you aren't scum right now. I'm still waiting.

2. Ok I claim Roleblocker. Am I clear town now? How about if I'm a Tracker? Watcher? Maybe I can just be a Miller? You're right, this is dumb.

Nolder · March 22, 2014

Guys I know a lot has happened, I wished to post to. I had to go out of country for a few days due to a sick relative. I've reached here, once I'm settled in here, I'll read up and post

Best wishes to your relative and looking forward to your catch up.

amegakure · March 22, 2014

well your obviously just being ridiculous to discredit what i was saying. If you seriously claimed something town would believe you. Right now your just being obtuse.

amegakure · March 22, 2014

And i dont see how your not picking up on the point. People make cases about why someone is scummy. then they usually get to "prove" they arnt before a lynch. It is up to them to prove they are not scum or they get lynched. Youve seen ive seen it. And your trying to twist my words to make me say something i cant essentially prove on the spot.

Nolder · March 22, 2014

well your obviously just being ridiculous to discredit what i was saying. If you seriously claimed something town would believe you. Right now your just being obtuse.

Are you talking to me? Or Jack? Or Lily? Or someone else now?

I can't tell anymore because apparently anyone who disagrees with you is either misrepping you or being ridiculous to discredit you or being obtuse or something along those lines.

And i dont see how your not picking up on the point. People make cases about why someone is scummy. then they usually get to "prove" they arnt before a lynch. It is up to them to prove they are not scum or they get lynched. Youve seen ive seen it. And your trying to twist my words to make me say something i cant essentially prove on the spot.

You have it backwards. People are not guilty by default and needing to prove their innocence to you.

We don't know if you're town or not so when you point to someone and say they need to prove they aren't scum it's ridiculous.

Prove you aren't scum first. You can't under normal circumstances. So what we do is we make cases for guilt.

Show me WHY you think Jack is scummy and should be lynched not say to him or me that he will be lynched if he doesn't show he's innocent.

That's just witch hunting and it's not at all productive for town to engage in.

amegakure · March 22, 2014

People are not guilty by default.. I think i said that once in a game. Got a lot of grief over it as it's not a good outlook to have in a game where viewing someone as town is more hindrance than help. Im inclined to agree now. Im surprised you think otherwise.

Ive never said these words once. now you are just copying jack.

that he will be lynched if he doesn't show he's innocent.

i have been proving his actions are scummy. Other players have remarked on his misrep and twisting of words as have I. im doing my job as a townie just fine.

If you dont like my casing vote me and get on with it.

Hayl3y · March 22, 2014

@ Dap and Wombat, there were some questions in my post here, u didn't reply to ... about contradictions. I'd really like to hear u about this

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/88294-basic-physics-mafia-day-1-vectors-and-kinematics/?p=3197137

So basically vos voted without reason, which is scummy. And people called him on it and voted him for it. But since they all aren't voting me and vos agrees with your line of thinking his train looked bad. Gotcha.

See, this is why I'm still reading you as scummy. First of all, I did give a reason. I quoted your text and called it weak. Second, when you didn

I can't say Vos voted without reason, he gave "some" explanations.

Vote Chae

Your number 11. We all know what that means
We do?

11 according to my day 1 tradition is always scum. I've self voted and voted every single person to placed at that spot

However your jumpy questioning to an obvious joke vote is noted. Hmmmm

jumpy questioning? where talking a total of two syllables. Are you that desperate for reactions?

Reading through, I found this interesting. Defense of Kronos? Maybe.

I don't think we can talk about a defense at this point. Kronos barely said a word... and he got underpressure. I was a bit surprised too.

I don't think we can hold this against Ame, for the moment.

Hi guys. No physics jokes here, I'm afraid.

It's ok. We can all laugh at Nolder because it is Wednesday.

Vote Nolder

Weak. Could just be that same tired old joke or it could be scum inciting something more.

I think time will tell but we should keep an eye on Cloud for now.

Hi guys. No physics jokes here, I'm afraid.

It's ok. We can all laugh at Nolder because it is Wednesday.

Vote Nolder

FoS Cloud

And again feeling good with Wombat.

I would have felt bad had he voted Cloud since I'd read that as buddying but I like that he chose to just call it out and move on.

Maybe that's just me reading too much into the situation though.

Btw I'm going to try to cut up my reread into 1-5 quotes at a time so it's easier to follow and read.

Hope that helps.

@ Nolder, Why are you giving so much about wombat being town? He was not really under fire.

I think you're giving him credit when it was not needed.

Why are you focused on Kronos, Lily?

that was my question too... i don't have seen enough about Kronos to focuse on him.

Dap is playing like Switzerland. I've pointed it out previous. He looks scummy to me. Very non comical and just contributed enough all most substance to be glanced over

@ Dap, u really need to give us the opportunity to read u more

I dont have this game or anyone else figured out. Theres more than one scum and im not sure who they are.
Genius! Please tell me more Sherlock.

Cloud voting for no reason doesnt really appeal to me as a scum tell. people do it all the time as either alignment so its null. I wouldn't mind hearing his own opinions on your follow up post though.
If we called people out for it more often they'd stop doing it and then scum couldn't get away with it.

DM needs a better class of townies.

Vos may have been parroting and sheeping but their only so many ways you can sing a case to make it sound different. Not sure what your expecting.
If he's going to parrot or sheep I would at least appreciate someone quoting the person they're following.

The train on vos is interesting to say the least. everyone is going after him for having weak sauce but what exactly are your guys cases for voting him? I wouldnt consider them strong.
Agreed. Makes me pause on the people who're voting him.

I quoted this as I'm suspicious of Ame's replies and his vote about Jak. He said Cloud voted for no reason, and Ame is forgiving but has not the same stance forJak.

And i don't think that Vos has been parroting. But i'll try to re-read for those 2 (Cloud and Vos).

Ok I'm all caught up and that's all I'm going to comment on.

We absolutely need to hear from the two replacements ASAP as well a Player, Chaelca, and Xthrax more.

Also Lenlo I know you want to keep the day going as long as possible so you're not voting but I'd like you to do me a favor.

First of all I'd like to know who your top suspect(s) is/are, so your vote doesn't blindside us when it comes.

And secondly I'd like you to vote me and wait until it shows up in a votecount so we can see if it's effective or a doublevote or somesuch.

In all honesty I don't remember you ever holding your vote this long before and that makes me think you have a reason for it.

@ Nolder, Chae was snoring last night... don't forget about the time zones :happy:

if you got the clout to do it go for it wouldnt be the first time town has lynched me as town. And im sure it would yield a bounty of townie info :)

There is a difference in me saying your prod at wolf was embellished to sound goood compared to lily voting me with no case and parroting your words. Which i remind you, that your falsely claimed i did, but you dont even bat an eye.

I'd also like to mention that Lily has been idolizing you as town since the start of the game but when she makes her reads she states you as "beginning to feel town". I found this suspect.

and the only person i dont agree with is you.. lily doesnt have a point so there is nothing to disagree with. Dap has made some points and i actually agree with a few of them. im not going to peg him as the next scum member just because he dosent agree with some of my post. Lenlo as well has a few disagreements. nolder to. Do you want me to find all the post's where people have stated they dont exactly agree with my line of thinking? and how i havent said a word in protest to their opinions.

And it's not perspective when other people also state that you twist words and misrep to make your points. Dont cling to perspective as a defense. If you want me to let up on you besides me who do you think is scum? Dap doesnt seem to have any reply's to you. Any thing to add to your read on him.

What do you think of wombat and kronos laying low.

Kronos, hasn't be been replaced ? and he was busy before leaving... so it's hard to tell

At this stage, I"d vote Ame or Dap or Nolder (most of all for that wombat defense)

BUT it's like early morning here and i'll need some time to go deeper in my re-read.

Nolder · March 22, 2014

People are not guilty by default.. I think i said that once in a game. Got a lot of grief over it as it's not a good outlook to have in a game where viewing someone as town is more hindrance than help. Im inclined to agree now. Im surprised you think otherwise.

Ive never said these words once. now you are just copying jack.

that he will be lynched if he doesn't show he's innocent.

i have been proving his actions are scummy. Other players have remarked on his misrep and twisting of words as have I. im doing my job as a townie just fine.

If you dont like my casing vote me and get on with it.

Well yes and no. You have been making a case but my point is that your case is not indisputable nor is it the final word.

You want Jack to prove himself to you but again you're just looking at the whole game backwards.

You have one vote. You want to lynch Jack. Jack can prove himself to your or not, that doesn't matter.

What matters is what everyone thinks about Jack. You're essentially standing back and throwing your arms out and saying "prove to these people you aren't scum because I already know you are". What you should be doing is addressing everyone yourself and proving Jack is scum so we will all vote to lynch him.

Do you see how the two are different?

It's to your benefit to persuade us not put assumed guilt on your target and tell him to fight his way out of it.

It's a trap, a useless endeavor. One cannot prove a negative without great and needless difficulty. The only reason I haven't voted you for it is because I think you're honestly making this mistake and not using it as a scum tactic.

Also I took a moment to look up the name of what you're doing because I know it's wrong and in fact it is a fallacy.

It as the Argument From Ignorance Fallacy. You're saying that since Jack has not proven his innocence that he must be guilty.

The burden of proof is not on Jack to prove his innocence but on you to prove his guilt because you are the one making the claim that he is guilty.

Nolder · March 22, 2014

@ Nolder, Why are you giving so much about wombat being town? He was not really under fire.

I think you're giving him credit when it was not needed.

I hardly think...2? posts describing my town lean on Wombat is overdoing it.

But even if it is, what's the problem? I don't really see why Wombat needs to be "under fire" for me to have a town lean on him.

@ Nolder, Chae was snoring last night... don't forget about the time zones

Ah, yeah I do forget about timezones sometimes sorry.

I'm just in a bit of a rush to get more perspective from the people who haven't talked much yet.

As I said in an earlier post tunneling on a few people and ignoring everyone else will hurt the town in the long run so I want to make sure we get some more thoughts from everyone as the game moves forward.

nervositee · March 22, 2014

I just did a quick catching up before going to work, so I'll be back with reads and whatnot later. I just had to drop in to point out the irony of "buzzword" being the new buzzword. Beautiful.

I'm not gonna pursuit this whole vos-"weak"-sidetrack further. I've heard your opinions, voiced mine and now we're just distracting with dead-horse-beating. I've been led around by scum D1 before and not interested in doing that again.

Also really not interested in Nolder opening with "DM needs a better class of townies" then going on to lecture everyone else how they should play. Not sure if it's just the way he is or scum trying to position himself as "town leader". I'll see if I can come up with more during re-read/reads list. Or see how it plays out.