[Basic] The Matrix - Game Over

[GoldeneyesND]

  On 1/27/2014 at 8:04 PM, TGlems said:

Also, to be clear, since you can't seem to read and keep making things up... 

 

At no point did I say that we needed to lynch those low posters today.  Nor did I FOS them.  I posted the low post counts to push them to activity.  Then, when you jumped all over me about it, we got into a general discussion about lurking, etc.  I don't think we need to lynch low posters today, but by D3 if people aren't participating and posting then it needs to be considered.

 

Also, I did not, at any point, vote anyone for a low post count. 

 

Where is the outrage here?! Tina, what do you think about TG's insults? This is not the second or third time he's been "rude" yet you never called him out for it.

 

Here's TGlems brilliant plan to push voted off of him. It's called a syllogism.

 

Part 1- Ask a seemingly innocuous question whose answer is obviously affirmative. E.g.- Is silence good in this game?

Part 2- Ask another fairly innocuous question, one that is directly linked to some action the questioner has undertaken. Expect an affirmative answer. E.g.- People who discourage silence are "good"?

Part 3-  State-  "If you agree that 1 and 2 are good, you obviously agree that I am good because of my connection. Failure to remove your vote from me makes you a hypocrite" - E.g.- "Because I encouraged talking and discouraged silence I am good"

 

Lazy me at 50% is better than TG at 100. It's like comparing a calculator to an abacus.

[Darthe]

TGs train doesnt look good. The reasons behind it strike me as lackluster. Vote Err andwe get better results from it.

[Andrej]

Okay, back for the day.

 

GE at this point I think you are just being stubborn for the sake of it, which isn't helping at all. I believe if it weren't for your cop claim you would be swinging by now, so I suggest you get with the program and refocus yourself.

 

The entire basis of your argument against TG is false. He quoted a post counter showing those who had under ~5 posts at the time. That was all. He never said "Let's lynch from this list." or "FOS to all these people with low posts." He never pushed the agenda of lynching lurkers. He posted a counter and that was literally it. YOU are the one that made the big deal out of it. YOU were the one who fabricated this malicious agenda that he is supposedly pushing. YOU looked guilty because of your reaction to it and how you handled the subsequent attention. When pushed on the subject he stated his stance on lurkers/fluff posters, which I agree with. They do hurt town, even if they are town themselves. Period. Does that make me scummy too? Does that mean I am pushing some malicious objective to get all the quiet players lynched? Think about it man. Your last post is basically you just dissolving into saying "Look! He's the one doing it now, why aren't you voting HIM for it?!"

[Andrej]

  On 1/27/2014 at 8:49 PM, Darthe said:

TGs train doesnt look good. The reasons behind it strike me as lackluster. Vote Err andwe get better results from it.

[Niniel]

  On 1/27/2014 at 9:00 AM, TinaHel said:

 

  On 1/26/2014 at 11:16 PM, Err said:

ok... i am traveling today... so dont know if i will be able to check in by the time of deadline... but here is what i have to say...

 

Golden if a towny could be a great asset..... i would not prefer voting him out in day 1 without any solid reason... 

 

i dont know why me mentioning a possibility of GF in the game is suspicious... this is the most probabilistic combination i could come up with.... 

 

Vos and Tglems seems more scummier then the other people on the chopping block at this time.... i would put by vote on Tglems

 

Vote Tglems

 

I agree with who ever said it that this is not a good reason for a vote. 

 

 

@ Vos - This is was my reason for voting Err. His reason for voting TG is because he is scummy... 

 

  On 1/27/2014 at 11:30 AM, Basel Gill said:

 

  On 1/27/2014 at 9:00 AM, TinaHel said:

Basel, there have been a lot of discussion but you choose to not comment on any of it. Why?

I had a vote I was comfortable with and I felt satisfied with where I was. That being said, DL is creeping on us and we need to consolidate. So I'm gonna unvote, vote Err. I think he was trying to divert us all into a discussion of setup, and it looked like he gave away too much info that he wouldn't know if town.

 

 

There were a lot of discussion and you choose to just watch instead of telling us what you thought about it. 

[nervositee]

  On 1/27/2014 at 8:44 PM, GoldeneyesND said:

 

Where is the outrage here?! Tina, what do you think about TG's insults? This is not the second or third time he's been "rude" yet you never called him out for it.

 

[...]

 

Lazy me at 50% is better than TG at 100. It's like comparing a calculator to an abacus.

 

 

 

Lynching our cop would be kinda stupid... wouldn't it. Hmm. 

 

The Err train is built on this:

 

  Quote

k lets get the dynamics of the games figured out.....

 

 

with 13 players..... i think one godfather, 2 mafias, doc, inspector, miller (?).... for a basic game can there be more non-vanilla roles?

 

yes i agree we might end up testing Darths claim by lynching him at some stage in the game.... but we could leave it for day 2 or 3.... there are 13 players alive so i dont think its a desperate situation to test his claim today

 

 

TGs train is built on providing a post count. 

 

I think town is being led by the hand here. I'm tempted to vote for the person playing the most anti-town, but then we'd loose a PR. I don't think Darthe would give us more to go on, and D2 would just be a re-hash of D1. 

 

I'm gonna be online until deadline, so I won't rush it. 

It'll be a shot in the dark no matter what, but I think Err will give us more than TG at this stage. 

[nervositee]

Ninja'd. I see your point on Err, Tina, even though it's hardly a scum-tell, it's better than nothing ;)

[Niniel]

That is not my (only) reason for voting Err. See my post above. 

 

How will Err give us more than TG?

 

(Also - Darthe, you´re siggy is too big. :))

[Niniel]

  On 1/27/2014 at 9:01 PM, nervositee said:

Ninja'd. I see your point on Err, Tina, even though it's hardly a scum-tell, it's better than nothing ;)

 

And now I got ninja´d. What do you mean? What is hardly a scum-tell? 

[GoldeneyesND]

Aj fair enough. 

 

My issue with TG is twofold

1- On principle I don't particularly care about a "would be nice to hear from the less active players" post. Posting a list of names along with number of posts is NOT that. It is a soft FOS and I don't really care who disagrees with me on this, it is what it is.

2- I called him out on it and he proceeded to tunnel me for it. I've had this happen to me several times from his perspective. You get annoyed that you made a post crafted to seem innocuous and someone makes a big deal about it and you respond by tunneling. That's null in and of itself. Then Tina comes out of the blue with a soft defend on either vos or TG claiming I'm a terrible human. Yet, she has never called TG out for the same "rudeness" and TG has continued to harp on my misuse of the word "vote" instead of "fos" even after my cop claim, which is pointless. It reads like subtle team play to me.

 

The competing train on Err- yeah I don't like the reasons for it or the people on it. Am I even 80% sure TG is scum? No. But this game is super slow with posts and there aren't all that many good reads. We could fall back on Darthe, but I believe his Miller claim and think more of his reads and opinions than most people in the game, including myself.

 

I find no claim by TG suspicious though, especially when people are criticizing his competing train in-game. Err lives half a world away and he lurks, so I don't find his lack of response as suspicious, but TG has posted since being put at L-2

[nervositee]

  On 1/27/2014 at 9:02 PM, TinaHel said:

 

  On 1/27/2014 at 9:01 PM, nervositee said:

Ninja'd. I see your point on Err, Tina, even though it's hardly a scum-tell, it's better than nothing ;)

 

And now I got ninja´d. What do you mean? What is hardly a scum-tell? 

 

 

Heh, this got all tangled up     

 

Let me rephrase, I think what you posted as your base for Err's train was hardly a scum-tell. HOWEVER, after re-reading it three times I'm not so sure anymore. I agree the quoted post is strange. 

 

  Quote

How will Err give us more than TG?

 

 

I think the Err train came too sudden and no-one discussed it, so I think it's at least one scum on his train. TGs train is led by Goldens poor game and doesn't tell us anything. My 2 cents right now at least. 

[GoldeneyesND]

  On 1/27/2014 at 9:15 PM, nervositee said:

 

  On 1/27/2014 at 9:02 PM, TinaHel said:

 

  On 1/27/2014 at 9:01 PM, nervositee said:

Ninja'd. I see your point on Err, Tina, even though it's hardly a scum-tell, it's better than nothing ;)

 

And now I got ninja´d. What do you mean? What is hardly a scum-tell? 

 

 

Heh, this got all tangled up     

 

Let me rephrase, I think what you posted as your base for Err's train was hardly a scum-tell. HOWEVER, after re-reading it three times I'm not so sure anymore. I agree the quoted post is strange. 

 

  Quote

How will Err give us more than TG?

 

 

I think the Err train came too sudden and no-one discussed it, so I think it's at least one scum on his train. TGs train is led by Goldens poor game and doesn't tell us anything. My 2 cents right now at least. 

 

 

More flinging I see. I have not pressured for a lynch on TG and I posted my reason for voting him above. If you don't like either, start another train. Show me where I have been rallying the troops to lynch TG? I have called him out multiple times for calling attention to something I think is a stupid move on Day 1. I'll  accept this post for what it is...weak. At some point in time I'm going to stop giving you the benefit of the doubt and start thinking you're scum rather than just ineffectual. The more I think about it, that time should probably be sooner rather than later. Going to iso vos.

[Niniel]

@ Vos - It sounds like you think both Err and TG is town. Is that right? 

 

@ Golden - I have not called you a terrible human and I don´t think you are. I don´t even know you so how could I have an oppinion of you? I don´t like the words you choose. There are many ways that you can say what you want to say. I did not vote you because of it. 

 

I´m going to bed now so I won´t be here for the deadline. 

[Niniel]

Where does Err live?

[GoldeneyesND]

Part 1

 

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  On 1/24/2014 at 1:23 PM, nervositee said:

Lots of people I haven't seen here yet. 

 

Vote Err

 

Because best nick in the roster 

 

 

  On 1/24/2014 at 5:45 PM, nervositee said:

 

  On 1/24/2014 at 5:33 PM, Andrej said:

 

  On 1/24/2014 at 5:17 PM, TGlems said:

Doing well.  My little one is turning 1 next month...time flies.  This year is going to be a bit tougher since my wife's travel schedule for work is really picking up...lot's of weeks being a single dad.  How is your little guy doing?

Dude it's not so bad. I've been Mr. Mom-ing for the past couple months since I got out. Mine is doing well, getting into everything lol. He'll be turning 1 at the end of next month. I'm starting school again for the first time in 6 years on Monday, so I'm sort of nervous/excited about that.

 

 

Whoa, sitting in the Matrix mafia thread and discussing your little kids. Leaning town on you two 

 

 

 

  On 1/24/2014 at 10:09 PM, nervositee said:

 

  On 1/24/2014 at 6:18 PM, Andrej said:

Nerv - what about it gives you town vibes?

 

 

Idk, it seems like town would discuss their kids, after-school television and babyfood, while scum would talk about which knives are best suited to cut hardwires? But again, maybe this is all cloak-and-dagger-play and you trying to get sympathy for being all soft proud parents, but while the toddlers are away for kindergarden, you plot nightkills and backstabbing? 

 

Gentlemen, we got ourself a real, mexican WIFOM. 

 

Also, Golden is scum. Because lawyer. Scum. 

 

 

 

  On 1/24/2014 at 10:52 PM, nervositee said:

 

  On 1/24/2014 at 10:43 PM, Andrej said:

 

 

  On 1/24/2014 at 10:09 PM, nervositee said:

 

  On 1/24/2014 at 6:18 PM, Andrej said:

Nerv - what about it gives you town vibes?

 

 

Idk, it seems like town would discuss their kids, after-school television and babyfood, while scum would talk about which knives are best suited to cut hardwires? But again, maybe this is all cloak-and-dagger-play and you trying to get sympathy for being all soft proud parents, but while the toddlers are away for kindergarden, you plot nightkills and backstabbing?

 

Lol anything is possible. I ask because I don't feel like our banter necessarily warrants a town-read, so you naming us both so early is suspect IMO.

 

 

 

I thought we were still on the "day 1 joke-votes and spamming"-phase. You discussion your kids are of course a null-tell. But I'm glad to see that you're already suspicious and scum-hunting from the get-go, instead of "It's only day 1 so we are by default not doing anything". (Not related to you, btw, just in general). 

 

 

I just googled miller, and got nothing more to add than AJs reasoning and to wait until further into the game before we even touch that with a stick. It would of course help if Darthe came and outright explained his rational for just claiming like that? 

 

 

 

  On 1/24/2014 at 11:42 PM, nervositee said:

It's settled then, Miller for everyone! 

 

 

  On 1/24/2014 at 11:46 PM, nervositee said:

This could so easily go waaaay off topic talking about beer now.

 

We could lynch everyone who drinks Bud?

 

 

  On 1/25/2014 at 1:58 AM, nervositee said:

AJ is either scum trying too hard to look like a "good, active scum-hunter", jumping at every straw he sees, turning every rock just to gain some initial town-cred now before he has to start being careful who he buddies and who he distances himself from

 

Or he is just being a good townie. 

 

All others: Null so far

Again, except Golden who is scum because lawyer. 

 

 

  On 1/25/2014 at 2:46 AM, nervositee said:

 

  On 1/25/2014 at 2:22 AM, Andrej said:

 

 

So... null then? You are essentially saying I could be one or the other. Wishy-washy statements like this don't sit very well for me, nor does your early town-read on me and TG for poor reasons and the subsequent backtracking of said read.

 

unvote; vote Vos

 

Also, that's the 2nd time you have made this sort of comment about GE. I'm assuming it's a joke, but I don't understand why you are bringing it up.

 

 

I'm not sure if I'm being unclear, or if you really are jumping at straws here? 

 

I'm mainly being unserious, it's start of game. Throwing observations out there to see how people react to them, joking around, picking up clues, seeing who is active, who keeps their head down, who buddies, who distances etc. 

 

So, to start at the bottom; why do I need a reason to bring it up? It's a joke. Lawyers = scummy. I'm sorry if it wasn't clear, but I think you're looking too hard here man. 

 

And back to your point # 1, sorry if I'm not being clear about how unserious/serious I am. It's page 4. I threw out the statement that while the thread is mainly people checking in, saying hello etc. you are being a very active scumhunter. It's an observation, nothing more. The fact that you see that as "wishy-washy" enough to think I'm scum and change your vote to me seems rash though. 

 

Bottom line is, it's great that you jump straight into it and scumhunt. I made an observation about it, while not putting it in either the town- or the scum-camp. That's all. 

 

 

 

  On 1/25/2014 at 9:31 AM, nervositee said:

 

  On 1/25/2014 at 3:55 AM, Andrej said:

 

Okay, so I ask Nerv how he got a town vibe from our talk about kids. He makes a jokey statement. I explain that him naming us both town for something so unrelated to the game is suspect. He retracts, bringing up the joke phase and then calling the interaction a null-tell (which it should've been). Nerv were you joking here as well when you called us both town?

 

 

Yeah. I already told you. It should have been blatantly obvious I don't make my reads on you based on the fact that you talk about your kids 

 

 

 

  On 1/25/2014 at 3:46 AM, Andrej said:

 

 

 

 

1. The joke on GE is sort of irrelevant to the point I'm making.

2. Observations are fine. When I say wishy-washy I am talking about the ambiguity in your statement. You basically said 'He's active. Could be scum or town.' You're making a statement without necessarily taking a hard stance on it. This could allow you some wiggle room to change your opinion later. I find that suspicious.

3. I don't think my vote moving to you is a rash decision. I have made some commentary on you (about the town-reads) prior to moving my vote after your last post. I can't say 100% that you are scum, but I think you are a good place to start looking.

 

 

1. Hmm? 

2. Yes. It was an ambiguous statement, because the way you're playing can strike both ways. I still mentioned it, not to claim you were this or that, but to offer my observation, for now but also for the future when we have more to go on. The whole point is to allow wiggle-room, because this early in the game we don't know anything. So more than anything, town should be über-flexible early game when things switch up fast. Taking a "hard stance" on page 4 seems more scummy to me than to observe and leave all options open. 

3. You are still jumping me from making jokey comments and then—when pointed out they seemed to intertwined with the hame—retracting/explaining them. It still strikes me as rash. Not scum-rash though. But still rash 

 

If it helps, I'll offer my "hard stance" opinion: AJ = Town. While I think that he is being overly active and grasping at straws I think he has done a good job of getting the game started, getting people to actually participate and do some active scumhunt. I know what I am, so his hunt for me seems either misdirected or scummy, but looking objectively at it I can see it. I think if you were scum you'd keep your head down a bit more, and especially not be the vocal forerunner of a mislynch D1.

 

 

 

  On 1/25/2014 at 11:29 AM, nervositee said:

 

  On 1/25/2014 at 11:02 AM, Despothera said:

[...] Plus, he so far seems to be playing a good bit different than he did in his first game where he was town.

 

 

My first game was the wreck-it-ralph-game where I was mafia. Then I replaced in to the French Revolution game where everything had already gotten pretty serious (and tangled due to PM-talk). This is my third game, so I haven't exactly developed a meta yet. I'm starting to feel more relaxed in mafia so I thought I'd participate in the D1 banter. Obviously I shouldn't have mixed unserious banter with saying stuff like "town-read". Duly noted. 

 

 

 

  On 1/25/2014 at 3:30 PM, nervositee said:

 

  On 1/25/2014 at 3:26 PM, TGlems said:

 

 

  On 1/25/2014 at 8:59 AM, Theodora said:

There is something like a "Let's save Darthe" club already. Considering his reputation he and Despo always get viewed the first night (if there is a cop), so a Miller role is a good insurance for a scum to live another day.

 

AJ and Despo - both being helpful and provide explanations to the new players about roles. The thing that pings me is that I have seen such meta from AJ every time I have played with him, so I am leaning townie for now, but with Despo, he was most helpful when he was scum. I am not going to bold my joke vote though, as I think it's too early and he hasn't picked up full speed. So hasn't Golden, so null there.

 

Vos - I don't know how you play but if you read your own posts, you will see it is like going into two opposite directions with your conclusions, therefore a bit of a mess and not that helpful. I am leaning town on you for now; maybe, it is too early in the game.

 

 

Vote Theodora Are you just trying to get townie cred by looking like you're being nice to a newer player?  You point out why Vos' statement looks bad, calling it a "mess" and "unhelpful", then say you are leaning town? 

 

  On 1/25/2014 at 9:31 AM, nervositee said:

 

1. Hmm? 

2. Yes. It was an ambiguous statement, because the way you're playing can strike both ways. I still mentioned it, not to claim you were this or that, but to offer my observation, for now but also for the future when we have more to go on. The whole point is to allow wiggle-room, because this early in the game we don't know anything. So more than anything, town should be über-flexible early game when things switch up fast. Taking a "hard stance" on page 4 seems more scummy to me than to observe and leave all options open. 

3. You are still jumping me from making jokey comments and then—when pointed out they seemed to intertwined with the hame—retracting/explaining them. It still strikes me as rash. Not scum-rash though. But still rash 

 

If it helps, I'll offer my "hard stance" opinion: AJ = Town. While I think that he is being overly active and grasping at straws I think he has done a good job of getting the game started, getting people to actually participate and do some active scumhunt. I know what I am, so his hunt for me seems either misdirected or scummy, but looking objectively at it I can see it. I think if you were scum you'd keep your head down a bit more, and especially not be the vocal forerunner of a mislynch D1.

 

 

You're being led around here.

 

 

Yep, that's what I started realizing. I'm planning on letting my answer to Des be what I have to say about the whole tangle. Moving on. 

 

 

 

  On 1/25/2014 at 5:42 PM, nervositee said:

 

  On 1/25/2014 at 5:17 PM, TGlems said:

Yates - 0

GoldeneyesND - 1 post

Krak - 2 posts

Basel, Tina, Theodora - 3 posts

 

Added

 

 

 

  On 1/25/2014 at 6:44 PM, nervositee said:

 

  On 1/25/2014 at 6:19 PM, GoldeneyesND said:

 

TGLEMS I have literally never seen this tactic used by town. All it shows (along with vos' subsequent update including Yates) is that 6 people in this game have 3 or fewer posts. I also dislike people who jump on someone for "trying to seem town" and I find it interesting that you and Darthe both used this strategy within a relatively short amount of time. It makes you both look bad jumping to these conclusions before page 5 of a game. How exactly do you expect to get the game going by fos'ing people who actually post based on an admittedly subjective feeling? You're essential punishing participation selfishly to look good and that's anti-town.

 

Vos, what are your reads so far and why? I can't tell if your game is simply nonsensical or if you're a newbie trying to work through things aloud, but you're headed for a D1 lynch unless you pick it up. 

 

 

 

What? Scum will lurk on D1 and keep their heads down as much as they can. Makes sense. 

 

I hardly have conclusive reads on anyone yet, as it's still pretty fluffy around here. You calling me out there and "threatening" me with a day 1 lynch just makes it look like you diverting attention from the fact you were called out for a low post count. It's also a bit funny. 

 

Also, your "not too hard to wind you up"-comment (directed at TG) is pretty funny considering you got pretty wound up by the post-count-list (which was just that), while TG still seems pretty calm and composed. 

 

 

 

 

[GoldeneyesND]

Part 2

commentary to follow

 

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  On 1/25/2014 at 6:58 PM, nervositee said:

 

  On 1/25/2014 at 6:47 PM, Andrej said:

 

1. Hm? I was saying your joke on GE wasn't something that I found suspicious and therefore wasn't relevant to why I was voting you.

2. Okay, so reading this I think it was more a matter of how you said it that tipped me off. I can agree with you on the flexibility thing early on. By hard stance I'm saying that generally I feel it's okay to say that you think/feel someone is a certain alignment if you can support it.

3. I'm not sure what you're trying to express here.

 

I like your response here, pretty level-headed and I think you explained yourself well in regards to why I was suspicious. I don't necessarily feel you need to provide yourself wiggle room as town, but people have different ways of playing/interpreting this game.

 

unvote

 

 

1. Ah, thanks for the clarification

3. Haha, don't blame you, that was was a poor sentence.

I meant that even after I tried to explain myself, and agree that it wasn't clear enough it had nothing to do with proper gameplay, you still jumped on me. Rash might also have been the wrong word, more opportunistic. But I also think we just got tangled in a bit of a misunderstanding. 

 

2. and last comment. I think we are on the same page, but might use different wording/terminology. I'll pay a bit more attention  

 

 

 

  On 1/25/2014 at 7:31 PM, nervositee said:

 

  On 1/25/2014 at 6:53 PM, GoldeneyesND said:

1- Awful. Half the people in this game around really in this game yet and you're pointing to participation as an indicator of being town or not. Do you see why scum who HAVE been posting would use a VC to justify the very weak argument you're putting forth?

 

2- Your posts make little sense and you're confusing. Err has votes, but he's I don't see him being as bad as everyone thinks and he is capable of putting together a solid argument. I'm not threatening you, I was giving you a heads up that when he sheds votes they could come your way if you didn't start making more sense. Note that I am not voting you and I didn't fos you, I was TRYING to be helpful. That's the last time I'll do that.

 

3- You've not played with me, so I'll pat you on the head and chuckle if you think THAT was me wound up.  

 

 

1. Again, wtf? Who has used it as an argument? Who has used it as a scumtell? Who has done more than to post it? Oh, you. no one else. 

 

2.    Your tone reeks of passive-aggressiveness

 

3. Ehm, ok, if you say so. 

 

unvote vote Golden

 

 

 

  On 1/25/2014 at 10:24 PM, nervositee said:

I'm gonna start from page 1 and do a re-read now. Including myself. I mainly stand by everything I've said, but if people read through and doesn't quite understand what I'm saying I should probably look over and see whats up. I'll be back with the results ;)

 

 

  On 1/26/2014 at 6:07 PM, nervositee said:

 

  On 1/26/2014 at 4:54 PM, GoldeneyesND said:

 

My train consists of a sheep vote, Darthe's weird off the wall vote and Vos, who couldn't find his way out of a paper bag with a map. I am confident at least 1 of these 3 is scum. Vos is bad, but Tina's entire post above is so terribad I can't ignore it. Also Darthe, you're wasting your vote on my train, I suggest some actual scumhunting. Tgelms handled some minimal pressure well, getting townie vibe from him. 

 

 

Spell it out for me, why am I "bad"? You are claiming bs arguments like that I don't know how to vote, just laying out highly unsubstantial claims. You are pestering, not scumhunting. So make a case or lay off, thank you.  I know you like to claim you are an aggresive player - might be, but right now you are playing very anti-town. 

 

 

 

  On 1/26/2014 at 7:45 PM, nervositee said:

 

  On 1/26/2014 at 6:22 PM, GoldeneyesND said:

I should lay off someone who has a vote on me? You must be joking. You started the game with what I can only assume was a joke about lawyers being scum, then proceeded to try and harp on everything I say. I will spell it out for you. I don't think you are playing a very focused game, You, like Tina are voting based upon the fact you generally dislike the way I talk. I'm fine with that. Notice that I haven't fos'd you or voted you, I have consistently given you the benefit of the doubt as a new player developing his game. You jump in and vote based on the weakest reasoning. Your explanation essentially states the no one used inactivity to justify votes (FALSE, Tglems did and then confirmed he had), calling me passive aggressive and then voting. I'll tell you what happened, you couldn't maintain emotional distance from the game, got upset when I told you to focus your game and then proceeded to look for reasons to vote me. If you take things personally in this game, you will have a much harder go of things than if you realize people are doing things to elicit responses. 

 

Bolded: Uhm. Yeah. You assume correctly. You shouldn't have to assume, it was very clear. 

Italics: That is your words, not mine. If you don't get it, I'll spell it out for you, here:

 

I vote Golden because he is building air-castles out of nothing, throwing shit at me on totally unsubstantial bs that he can't back up, when confronted about it he obfuscate it by that "he has a plan". For what I can read Golden is playing very anti-town. I'm all for aggressive play styles, but this isn't aggressive play, this is nothing. 

 

Underlined: Ehm, come again? You are gonna tell me what happened? Why, thank you! You're taking a wild guess, and you are wrong, but thanks for that insight. 

 

 

 

  On 1/26/2014 at 8:01 PM, nervositee said:

 

  On 1/26/2014 at 7:57 PM, GoldeneyesND said:

You're essentially the mafia version of a monkey flinging feces against a wall. I'm moving on from this discussion cause it's getting nowhere and theres zero chance your voting me results in my lynch.

 

 

I take it back, you are a valuable town-player, lead the way!

 

I agree our discussion is stalling. It's there for everyone to see and judge by themselves. Moving on. 

 

 

 

  On 1/27/2014 at 1:12 AM, nervositee said:

Yeah, have a cup of tea and take it easy. It's D1. A re-read is not imperative to anything right now ;)

 

 

  On 1/27/2014 at 10:46 AM, nervositee said:

Just dropping by, will be on later. 

 

Unvote

 

 

  On 1/27/2014 at 6:05 PM, nervositee said:

Where did the Err train come from again?  

 

 

  On 1/27/2014 at 9:00 PM, nervositee said:

 

  On 1/27/2014 at 8:44 PM, GoldeneyesND said:

 

Where is the outrage here?! Tina, what do you think about TG's insults? This is not the second or third time he's been "rude" yet you never called him out for it.

 

[...]

 

Lazy me at 50% is better than TG at 100. It's like comparing a calculator to an abacus.

 

 

 

Lynching our cop would be kinda stupid... wouldn't it. Hmm. 

 

The Err train is built on this:

 

  Quote

k lets get the dynamics of the games figured out.....


with 13 players..... i think one godfather, 2 mafias, doc, inspector, miller (?).... for a basic game can there be more non-vanilla roles?

yes i agree we might end up testing Darths claim by lynching him at some stage in the game.... but we could leave it for day 2 or 3.... there are 13 players alive so i dont think its a desperate situation to test his claim today

 

 

TGs train is built on providing a post count. 

 

I think town is being led by the hand here. I'm tempted to vote for the person playing the most anti-town, but then we'd loose a PR. I don't think Darthe would give us more to go on, and D2 would just be a re-hash of D1. 

 

I'm gonna be online until deadline, so I won't rush it. 

It'll be a shot in the dark no matter what, but I think Err will give us more than TG at this stage. 

 

 

 

  On 1/27/2014 at 9:01 PM, nervositee said:

Ninja'd. I see your point on Err, Tina, even though it's hardly a scum-tell, it's better than nothing ;)

 

 

  On 1/27/2014 at 9:15 PM, nervositee said:

 

  On 1/27/2014 at 9:02 PM, TinaHel said:

And now I got ninja´d. What do you mean? What is hardly a scum-tell? 

 

Heh, this got all tangled up        

 

Let me rephrase, I think what you posted as your base for Err's train was hardly a scum-tell. HOWEVER, after re-reading it three times I'm not so sure anymore. I agree the quoted post is strange. 

 

  Quote

How will Err give us more than TG?

 

 

I think the Err train came too sudden and no-one discussed it, so I think it's at least one scum on his train. TGs train is led by Goldens poor game and doesn't tell us anything. My 2 cents right now at least. 

 

 

 

 

[GoldeneyesND]

Err lives in the United Arab Emirates if I'm not mistaken. 

[nervositee]

Bold highlight by GE, green commentary and blue highlight by me

 

 

  On 1/27/2014 at 9:22 PM, GoldeneyesND said:

 

  On 1/27/2014 at 9:15 PM, nervositee said:

. TGs train is led by Goldens poor game and doesn't tell us anything. My 2 cents right now at least. 

 

 

More flinging I see. [refering to Golden naming me a fesces-flinging monkey earlier in the game] I have not pressured for a lynch on TG and I posted my reason for voting him above. If you don't like either, start another train. Show me where I have been rallying the troops to lynch TG? I have called him out multiple times for calling attention to something I think is a stupid move on Day 1. I'll  accept this post for what it is...weak. At some point in time I'm going to stop giving you the benefit of the doubt and start thinking you're scum rather than just ineffectual. The more I think about it, that time should probably be sooner rather than later. Going to iso vos.

 

 

Getting personal now? Looking forward to your iso-commentary. 

[GoldeneyesND]

There is SOOO MUCH buddying by Vos in the early part of the game. Here's a summary of the interesting parts

1-The first few posts Vos announces TG and AJ are town because they are talking about their kids.

2- Jv Err because of his nickname

3- "jokes" I'm scum because I'm a lawyer

4- posts "null" reads for everyone except me, because #3 of course

5- Soft fos's AJ, saying he COULD be scummy, or not

6- AJ calls him out for his weird seeding of me, buddying AJ/TG and super unfocused "everyone is null" read.  Vos employs the scummy "it was all a joke, I just want people to like me" defense. 

7- Vos continues to defend himself saying it should be "blatantly obvious" he wasn't really calling AJ town for talking about his kids.

8- Vos states his posting of null reads on EVERYONE is to "allow for wiggle room." Terribad

9- He follows up by basically just adding comments to various people posting how he's not being clear and how his play is confusing. Then he starts feuding with me, meh.

 

To summarize- The only REAL position Vos has taken all game is that he doesn't like me. I'll give him credit for sticking to that at least. It started with his super original "joke" and then gained momentum when I said he was not playing well. He does NOT really fos anyone except for me of course. Every soft fos comes with a disclaimer that something is a "joke" or he's "not sure." The couple of times he attempted actual gameplay he was quickly pushed off his position by AJ because his reasoning was so weak and wishy washy.

 

I do not find any intentional misleading or obfuscation in his play. He legitimately appears to have gotten screwed up early for what I'll term exuberance over being in a new game and being a newish player, so that's understandable. In the future I recommend you avoid the "wiggle room" posts early in the game- ask questions or read, but don't bother typing a post that includes everyone as null. Buddying here is reacted to negatively, so in games that don't already have a jokey vibe, it would behoove you to avoid making a bunch of jokes. 

 

Vos is town. 

[Andrej]

  On 1/27/2014 at 9:14 PM, GoldeneyesND said:

Aj fair enough. 

 

My issue with TG is twofold

1- On principle I don't particularly care about a "would be nice to hear from the less active players" post. Posting a list of names along with number of posts is NOT that. It is a soft FOS and I don't really care who disagrees with me on this, it is what it is.

2- I called him out on it and he proceeded to tunnel me for it. I've had this happen to me several times from his perspective. You get annoyed that you made a post crafted to seem innocuous and someone makes a big deal about it and you respond by tunneling. That's null in and of itself. Then Tina comes out of the blue with a soft defend on either vos or TG claiming I'm a terrible human. Yet, she has never called TG out for the same "rudeness" and TG has continued to harp on my misuse of the word "vote" instead of "fos" even after my cop claim, which is pointless. It reads like subtle team play to me.

 

The competing train on Err- yeah I don't like the reasons for it or the people on it. Am I even 80% sure TG is scum? No. But this game is super slow with posts and there aren't all that many good reads. We could fall back on Darthe, but I believe his Miller claim and think more of his reads and opinions than most people in the game, including myself.

 

I find no claim by TG suspicious though, especially when people are criticizing his competing train in-game. Err lives half a world away and he lurks, so I don't find his lack of response as suspicious, but TG has posted since being put at L-2

 

Your first point is a little better to help me see from your POV instead of just yelling "THIS DUDE IS SCUM!!" Anyway, so you feel it was a soft FOS even if he didn't state as much, fair enough. Your immediate reaction to it though made you look guilty. I disagree that he started to tunnel you afterwards. His vote was still on Theo and was only switched to you after it was pointed out that you were saying he was pushing to lynch the inactives, which didn't happen. Tina's opinion on what is rude or not isn't for you to dictate. Your comments towards Vos about him 'fumbling through the dark' or 'unable to find his way out of a paper bag with a map' and the 'I'll pat you on the head' did come off as condescending and I haven't seen anything from TG even remotely close to that.

 

I will say that I don't think TG is scum, nor am I willing to join his wagon unless it is solely to secure a lynch before DL. The reasoning behind the early votes on his train I don't find very compelling. Theo's is strange in that I really have no clue what she is alluding to. Xthrax's is explained, at least, but I think it's more a matter of his personal opinion in regards to TG's stance on lurkers, which isn't exactly the same as general busyness (which he talks about how some players can't post all the time). Err's vote is based on a blanket statement that is justified with zero backing evidence. I am also not a fan of how Despo joined the wagon and has recently posted how he'd rather see a Tina train although he was on her originally and swapped.

[GoldeneyesND]

Aj- You're missing the point with my opinion on Tina. I don't have an opinion on what she considers rude and I have no intention of getting into that at all. My point is, though yes i was being a dick, there have been several other dickish comments by players in this game and she chose to dedicate a paragraph discussing how she feels about me. I read this as a soft defense of my FOS of TG. Her failure to say something about how vos or TG responded to me with insults just confirmed in my mind that she chose to complain about me to place more negative attention on me. Mish does this all the time in games to great effect. It's a good way to get people to think poorly about another player and gain some sympathy for yourself. In my mind if it's in the game thread it's gameplay, so I chose to view her comment as such. If she actually had a problem with me I would presume she'd just PM me.

 

I find people slip more when they're annoyed or off-balance. So, I find ways to make them annoyed or off-balance and see how they respond. You can call it being difficult or rude, I'm fine with that.  I made condescending statements to vos because I didn't feel like fos'ing him to gauge reactions when I was doing that to TG. Also, I honestly do find him unfocused in this game. I wanted to see who got squirmier and investigate them tonight.

[Darthe]

Actually, studies show that people reacting negatively to attitudes that attempt to normalize negative behavior tend to be those who exhibit more natural reactions, which is to say that you're making it easier for townies to slip up because you're unduly frustrating them.  Mafia are already acting so they should be more prepared to deal with that tactic.  The bigger issue is that all advanced players are controlling their actions in either regard so what does it say about them?  Worse, how do you reconcile attacking people and being aggressive in a way that hurts your own standing when it may not effectively yield results and is shown regularly to not do so?

 

Basically I am saying that that is not a winning strategy.  Attempt to use logic in such a way that your opponent cannot find fault in it and you will throw the "controlled" crowd off far more.

[Xthrax]

  On 1/27/2014 at 7:45 PM, TGlems said:

I'm on it for competing trains.  The people on my train seem to have the following reasons, summarized sarcastically by me:

 

Theo - OMGUS

X - Ambiguous reasoning, but seems to disagree with me about lurkers

Err - No reason

Des - To put pressure on

GE - Said, in bold, I justified my vote with inactivity, then said he never said that, and voting me for it

 

Basically, my train is awful, and if we don't have a competing train near deadline then I will get lynched due to laziness. 

 

 

Xthrax, question for you.  If a player does not participate in the game by posting their thoughts, reads, etc, does that help town or hurt town?  Remember, town's job is to try and get as much info as possible about each player to make an informed decision. 

 

True, if a player does not post thoughts or reads it does not that help town. Now a question to you TG. Consider a player who has been caught up in something. Suppose, he has signed up for a mafia game but has fallen sick and can't do anything for that matter. Or he's at work/school all day, and doesn't really get time to log on to DM and play? Would you consider him as hurting town? Take the case of Krak. He hasn't posted really anything other than just reporting in. May have been busy by a totally valid reason for him, by he really didn't hurt town now, did he? Since on Day 1 there's a much larger number of player as compared to Day 3 or 4, people can be allowed leeway on Day 1. 

 

Also if someone didn't really have anything good to say, they have the  right to remain silent. Would rather harry them out, thereby leading to not that a great decision which could  affect town OR let them be quiet, observeand then make a good decision for the benefit of town?

[Xthrax]

A question for all on the Err train, something I've been asking for sometime now-Why Err? Skiming through most of the arguments against Err, I can only find one thing-the fact that he said there could be Godfather. I'm not sure what it said exactly, but he with 13 players he was considering possible set ups. Now in Nolder's post in the beginning of the game, he did mention Godfather as a possible role. Err could've just suggested Godfather from that-need not be an actual slip by him. 

 

What exactly do we get from lynching Err? Knowing if he's scum or not. There's a 50-50% probability of it going either way for him. It could also be a mislynch.

Similarly from TG? We get to know if he's scum or not. For a mislynch-we take the same chance as the Err train is taking.

 

 

  On 1/27/2014 at 8:42 PM, Despothera said:

Fwiw, TG's responses don't look too bad the last little bit of the game. I'd prob rather us have a train on Tina right now instead of him. However, I must say again that the Err train kinda came out of nowhere and yet built fast- makes me wonder that's because it has some scummies on it who didn't wanna vote for TG and were waiting for a viable alternative.

 

I agree with this. The Err train really came out of nowhere. I go to sleep & wake up and Err train has caught up with TG's. And  that was in less than a day. Like Des said, there could be one or more scum who might be going on Err just to take the attention from TG.

[Basel Gill]

  On 1/27/2014 at 11:55 PM, Xthrax said:

A question for all on the Err train, something I've been asking for sometime now-Why Err? Skiming through most of the arguments against Err, I can only find one thing-the fact that he said there could be Godfather. I'm not sure what it said exactly, but he with 13 players he was considering possible set ups. Now in Nolder's post in the beginning of the game, he did mention Godfather as a possible role. Err could've just suggested Godfather from that-need not be an actual slip by him.

If he had just said GF, I might believe that, but he posted an entire mafia team.