[Basic] Christmas Mentors & Maffia

[Tommyrod]

WIM is Win It More, the desire to try hard. 

We have BFG and now Key and (likely) Nolder as townies.There just aren't enough suspects left for us to massively screw up. Hoof flips mafia, and then there's likely 1 scum left (from what other people said) and maybe 1 independent who can't kill; I'm sure we can find the last mafia before they can kill enough townies to force us into MyLo. Is it cocky on my part? Maybe, but the odds of us losing are quite low at this point.

 

If you still want me, shine the Tom beacon and I'll return. Here it is:

 

[Krakalakachkn]

So where's Cloud? Hoping for a blind lynch?

[keyholder21]

@ Hoof, not sure that placates me.

 

@ Tommy, some kind of effort would be helpful.

 

@ Via, who do you intend to vote for?

[keyholder21]

@ Krak - why do you think leelou was NKed?

[Tommyrod]

I have now slept a sufficient amount to be able to make an effort. What I'll try to do first is clear people so we can whittle down our suspects moving forward. I'll be jumping around randomly through pages looking for clues.

 

 

##vote elffern

 

Because you've posted ad nauseum about why your opinion is bestest and right. I find you overly defensive, frenetic, I disagree with a substantial portion of your logic and you engage in endless whyme fryme. Even if the scum vibe I get from you is wrong, I don't find most of what you say to contribute to actual scumhunting, other than to FOS several people and then submit an OMGUS vote which you lyingly claim is based on gameplay. 

 

Ad nausem bit.  - This is a stretch.  Elfie may be tunneling me..but she sure isn't acting like her opinion is the best.  Many play that way here..but she isn't exhibiting these traits.

 

Logic bit - Doesn't bother explaining why her logic is wrong.  Just says it is.  Prove it.

 

Even if scum vibe is wrong -  Basically giving himself an out if he is somehow wrong and then giving a policy type reason for his vote - unhelpful town is worth killing type meaning.

 

Lyingly -  Is that a word.  Again, no evidence that she is lying.  She may feel exactly the way she is posting.  She may be wrong...but that doesn't mean she is lying. 

 

 

My biggest issue with Golden is that I played 1 game with him and he was very astute and succinct in that game.  Had great reasoning.  Great instincts.  Very good arguments.  He was town.   This post compared to that is a big pile of brown fiber.  His reasons lack substance. 

 

Two things to derive from this, knowing Elf's alignment:

1. Golden was aggressive in his push for Elf, yet allowed himself room to backtrack. (Classic scum tell; we should look for more of this behavior from others.)

2. Peace was on top of that, calling him out for it, and he was correct. This looks good for Peace.

[csarmi]

*** sleeping mod is sleeping ***

[Tommyrod]

Segue to discuss some posts that annoy me.

 

 

 

Most likely mafia pairings at this point: one of Turin/Krak (they probably aren’t aligned), if it’s Krak then Nolder is likely to be mafia also, if it’s Turin then odds of Peace being mafia go up; someone in the Hoof/Hallia/Theo pile, probably Hallia or Theo more than Hoof. The Via/Golden interaction and OMGUS vote feels forced to me. Hallia jumping on Golden’s wagon makes me feel better about Golden not being mafia though. It’s possible we are looking at Hallia/Theo/Via scumteam? Krak/Nolder?

 

This is a good example of why linking people is bad if you don't know what you're doing.

Guess what Tommy, we are all playing this game and we are all going to give opinions about each other.

Just because I named Krak as my town lean at the time we're now linked as partners?

What happens when we're both town and I just happened to have a good read?

What happens if I'm scum and I only said that to implicate Krak?

What if I'm scum and I thought most people would think that so I did buddy my partner?

You're WIFOMing blind here buddy and it's one of the most disgusting posts I've seen so far in this game.

 

 

If you didn't claim doc I would be newly suspicious of you after seeing posts like this; I don't see what there is to complain about with my reasoning. It's pretty clear, and obviously I don't have all the answers. Insulting my abilities as a player is in poor taste, but this also reads as an AtE. You could be a little more self aware, as I recall you recently snipped at me with this same accusation. 

 

 

 

 

So when are we lynching Hoof and Turin?


And Peace you were more aggressive in this game then I'm used to seeing from you, and mafia does tend to be more aggressive than town.

Pfft, eagerly pushing for an easy hoof lynch, are we? not AGAIN....*yawn*

 

Missed this before but what do you think of Leelou seemingly pushing that same angle on both you and me?

 

 

I don't think she was. She made a humorous comment about me, and basically joke-voted you. Your insistence that she was pushing for either of us to be lynched comes off as paranoid and pings for me. 

 

 

(look at the Discussions forum if you want yo see unreasonable Nolder).

WHAT!?

 

Ok, no, timeout!

 

Real talk for a moment since you wanna go out of game on me here.

I am one of the most reasonable people you can have a serious discussion with if you are not sarcastic or overly insulting to me.

Once that happens then yes I can and will act like a jackass because I'm not going to give someone who's being a jerk any respect when all they do is make ad hom arguments and just treat me like crap. But you can ask most D&D regulars, especially the people I argue with often. When both sides affords each other a reasonable amount of respect and consideration I will happily discuss any subject that interests me for days upon days. And I am not unreasonable while doing so. Agreeing with your opponent is not a prerequisite to being an agreeable person and while it's true I don't often have my mind changed my mind is not closed to possibilities. You might know some of this if you spent any real time participating in the D&D.

 

 

yeah, I will second you on this, Nolder. Nolder is not an unreasonable debater- frequently wrong, yes, but not unreasonable 

Turin was probably making a joke though, but it was just conveyed poorly.

 

 

I'm not sure why Hoof chimed in here, but his defense of Nolder at the time supports the "hoof is scum" theory since he's buddying up here and implies he already knows the intent of two players, Nolder and Turin (easy to do if knows their alignment). 

 

 

There's a lot of votes on Nolder. If he flips town we should go after Hallie. 

It's interesting that you spent the time to link me to Krak only to assume I'd flip town and then target Hallia.

 

 

I don't know how you can make this statement on the same page that you just read my post where I had Krak/Nolder OR Hallia/Theo/Via scumteams: the operative word being OR. I think it was a good start for that early stage of the game. This seems like callous gas-throwing on people for the most part. Which is something you appear to have done a lot of before you claimed -- I suggest you stop being so obstinate if you want to help win the game. The fact that you've taken up a wagon on Krak solely because you made a point of opposing stances with me and Peace is bizarre and, to me, would make you a prime scum suspect under circumstances where you weren't already off the lynch table.

My main point is that your play has been rather anti-town in this game, so don't preach high and mighty to me about the right way to play. It's both hypocritical of you and bad sportsmanship. 

/endrant

[Tommyrod]

Went back to right after Golden was lynched to vague reactions.

 

 

Here's Golden's later big reads list (in 3 posts)

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/86578-basic-christmas-mentors-maffia/page-24?do=findComment&comment=3118497

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/86578-basic-christmas-mentors-maffia/page-24?do=findComment&comment=3118512

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/86578-basic-christmas-mentors-maffia/page-25?do=findComment&comment=3118514

 

Let's dissect this, but keep in mind it's later in the day and more thorough so the chance of WIFOM is higher

 

 

Nolder and Turn smack of town to me.

 

Nol because of Golden's L-1 vote and Turin because of his voting.  I believe Cloud pointed out the specific post.

 

Golden had so many "SCUM" suspects on his list that it caught my eye the first time, and I'm guessing he buried 1 or 2 actual scum reads in that list so he could save face later. 

 

 

I was thinking the same thing - having a couple of team mates somewhere in his list.

 

I did this to amke it easier for myself as his 3 posts are over two pages, thought I might as well share

 

1- Peace - Scum.

2 - Cloud - Null

3 - Krak - Town.

5 - TommyRod - Town

6 - Leelou - Town. 

7 - Theodora - Scum read.

8- Eiffern - Still Scum.

9 - Hallia - Null leaning scum.

10 - BFG - Innocent Child 

11 - Via - nothing

12 - Nolder - Scum.

13 - BlackHoof - Town.

14 - Turin - Scum.

 

 

So Golden's scum suspects were: Peace, Theo, Elf, Hallia, Nolder, and Turin. So far Elf, Hallia, Theo/Key, Turin and Nolder have been town. That leaves Peace, who I also don't think is scum with Golden. Therefore...! We have to look at the people he said WEREN'T scum: Krak, Tom, Leelou, Hoof and the people he said were Null: Cloud and Via. I think at the time Via hadn't really done anything, but why he listed Cloud as null, I'm not sure. Wanted a future mislynch? Didn't know how to broach the subject?

 

 

Tom, Hally, Nolder and Turin look town to me because of their vote switching just before Nolder's lynch. 

 

Leelou came a little later to the party, and I personally felt that her switch to Golden was too early to be a busvote, and she did repeat her initial suspicion of Golden so I'm also leaning town on her if I analyze the votes but less so than the rest.

 

Effie's hammer looks bad. I will be sad if you end up being mafia after all.

 

 

I think Via is mafia because of her interaction with Golden, and her weak defense coupled with her backing away from her accusation on him. Golden also ended up unvoting from her, and he didn't bother looking at Effie even though he was so convinced that she was mafia. Peace and Thea also seem townie because of their early votes on Golden. This leaves Krak and Hoof as mafia.

 

This reminds me that Via's Golden interactions were weird, and Golden listed Via as "nothing" despite that.

 

Via, Krak and Hoof are mafia. If the game is still going on then Effie is too.

 

/game

 

He was probably closer than we thought.

 

 

Golden's scum list:

-Peace

-Theo

-Elf

-Hallia

-Nolder

-Turin

 

Town list:

-Krak

-Tom

-Leelou

-Hoof

 

Null:

-Cloud

-Via

 

People he flip-flopped on from his earlier reads:

-Cloud went from scum to null

-Turin went from town to scum

-Hoof went from scum to town

-Peace went from null to scum

 

I don't think Peace and Golden would be scum-scum based on their interactions.

 

I still find it weird that the only thing Hallia commented on in the first half of the thread was Golden's one-off post (see #386).

 

Hallia/Via are the most likely scum leads based on how they interacted with Golden.

 

 

Hoof going from scum to town is glaring; the only person on Golden's list that he became less suspicious of. Which we know he was faking in the first place, since he was mafia.

 

You guys can do the boring work and analyze his cases :P

 

 

/Cloud out

 

I'm not the only lazy one?!

 

 

I feel vindicated

 

do you mean vindicated because Golden was mafia and you were going to hammer?

 

because you hopped off Golden's train earlier, and ended up on a train  that came from nowhere (ie there were no votes on krak earlier in the day) and was going to go nowhere

 

 

Building Hallia doubt after I expressed my thoughts on her scumminess? Possibly.

 

 

Via, Krak and Hoof are mafia. If the game is still going on then Effie is too.

 

/game

 

You can scrap Effie of that list because we only have 4 mafia. There is also a third party out there though.

 

 

I got a little carried away there when I started analyzing the votes. I think Effie is town because of her play. Every hammer would have looked bad.

 

 

 

I feel vindicated

 

do you mean vindicated because Golden was mafia and you were going to hammer?

 

because you hopped off Golden's train earlier, and ended up on a train  that came from nowhere (ie there were no votes on krak earlier in the day) and was going to go nowhere

 

 

She actually hopped off Nolder's train.

 

 

Nolders refusal to vote one of the larger trains is suspicious.

Nolder, can you explain why you were trying to start a brand new train just before the deadline?

 

I like Peace's thought process here; I had made a similar comment myself during the EOD CFD.

 

 

 

 

I feel vindicated

 

do you mean vindicated because Golden was mafia and you were going to hammer?

 

because you hopped off Golden's train earlier, and ended up on a train  that came from nowhere (ie there were no votes on krak earlier in the day) and was going to go nowhere

 

 

She actually hopped off Nolder's train.

 

 yep, she went from voting Golden to Nolder (which gave us three trains at three votes each: Golden, her and Nolder) and then to Krak, so I would like to hear how she felt 'vindicated'

 

 

for the record I think it's fine for players to change their opinion, that in itself I don't find scummy at all.

 

I suppose to me using 'vindicated' would be more applicable if you had been actively pushing for his lynch, making cases and rebutals on him, etc. Not just that you found him scummy, were going to hammer and he turned out to be mafia.

 

It seems a bit over the top for that.

 

 

 

for the record I think it's fine for players to change their opinion, that in itself I don't find scummy at all.

 

I suppose to me using 'vindicated' would be more applicable if you had been actively pushing for his lynch, making cases and rebutals on him, etc. Not just that you found him scummy, were going to hammer and he turned out to be mafia.

 

It seems a bit over the top for that.

 

I agree with this.  I don't think Hallia did anything of note to push the golden lynch, nor were there people condemning her opinions on him so that she would feel vindicated. 

 

I'm not sure what to make of the Cloud/Via interaction here since both sides seem to be arguing a somewhat specific point out of the many of reasons Hallia's play was scummy, but if Via flips scum Cloud should be clear regardless. 

[Tommyrod]

More stuffs:
 

 

So I went back through Peace's posts expecting to find something condemning him, but to my surprise didn't find anything obvious. He's been pretty consistent on his reads, placed a vote on Golden and explained himself, and has picked/entered into several fights with various people. My only question is,

@Peace: do you still have scum reads on Elf?

 

His vote on Golden could as easily have been a distance vote which turned in his favor after Golden got lynched.

 

What do you think about his back and forth with Nolder?

 

 

Hoof has been pretty wishy-washy. I can't tell the exact timeline on my phone, mainly because DM doesn't do proper ISOs and the workaround method sucks, but it seems that he wasn't really suspicious of me or Hallia until other people were vocal about it. He was highly suspicious about Nolder until (I believe) you posted about Nolder being likely town. The only good part being that at least his reads aren't static.

When asked to explain his scum read on me and his vote on (Hally?), his response was "they could both be scum," which is hardly heartening.


If I'm wrong about the timeline before I get to a proper computer, please tell me.

 

Krak has been developing a read on Hoof for a while, that looks good for him.

 

 

 

So I went back through Peace's posts expecting to find something condemning him, but to my surprise didn't find anything obvious. He's been pretty consistent on his reads, placed a vote on Golden and explained himself, and has picked/entered into several fights with various people. My only question is,
@Peace: do you still have scum reads on Elf?

 
His vote on Golden could as easily have been a distance vote which turned in his favor after Golden got lynched.
 
What do you think about his back and forth with Nolder?

I think it'll be really funny if they're both town as Nolder called him out on D1 for causing some serious town-on-town violence several games past. I mean, it could obviously be distancing, but I'd believe that more readily if he hadn't done the same with Tommy and...Turin?

The golden vote could easily be distancing, but he gave a pretty good reason for it too. It's enough to give me pause for now.

 

 

 

 

@Cloud - I disagree about mafia team not working in tandem when it comes to emotion. I have seen, and been a part of, QT's where teammates are telling others to chill, or be careful with their responses when it comes to emotion. If people are working together as a team, why rule that possibility out?

I have edited this quite as I am just commenting in this bit.

I think the influence the mafia team has on each others would vary very much depending on who the team is, how emotional or otherwise they are as a person, the time zones they are in and when they have had a chance to read the thread and post in the QT...... So really too many factors to judge right now.

Though in theory that is how a mafia town would work, watching each others backs, but in this case wew can't start supposing on what is happening on the mafia thread.

 

Why do you choose this to respond to out of everything else that's been said recently? That's weird to me. Also, it's way less about what's on the mafia QT and more about Krak's aggressive post and whether it should be viewed as scummy or not.

 

 

That's because Via is fake scumhunting. Can we lynch her and Krak now plz?

 

And Cloud has been pretty consistent in his suspicious as well.

 

 

So you thinking then that as the deadline got closer and it looked like GE was going down instead of Nolder there was some bussing?  Elf's hammer was super scummy to me, and also their admitted skimming.

 

##vote Elf

 

 

I would have thought that Cloud (as the vote before the hammer) would seem more suspicious to you by this logic. I don't see anything wrong with Elf's - no read either way her vote.

 

But as I recall you stated your intention to hammer.

 

 

Via was glad to hop into the Hallia-hate party.

 

@ Key - I'm commenting at a discussion that was happening a little while ago. I quoted you to illustrate what I was commenting on, though my post wasn't aimed directly at you, which I could have made clearer.

 

@ Cloud - I am trying to remember how long you have been setting up my lynch from, I think it's almost the entire length I've been in the game!

 

Attempt to discredit both of them?

 

Yes, and it appears that I'm doing an exceptionally poor job at it too.

 

ah well, practise makes perfect I suppose!

Does anyone know Via well enough to say if this is typical behavior from her -- laughing off strong accusations?

 

@Via - do you have any reads?

 

Like this too.

 

 

## vote Nolder

 

If Nol flips town then I will start looking your way Tom, you seemed to be tunneling on him lately

 

This was vote #6 on Nolder.  Normally a good place to bus...but his attached comment causes some doubt.  Looks like he knows Nolder is town and wants to set up Tommy when Nolder would flip.

 

 

## vote Nolder

 

If Nol flips town then I will start looking your way Tom, you seemed to be tunneling on him lately

 

What are you even saying here? Not only have I *not* been tunneling on him, but I just myself expressed doubt about this wagon since it's got a pretty big majority for D1. You'll notice my vote's not on him.

Seriously, wtf. 

 

 

Tommy's reaction here makes it look like a true WTF moment. 

 

So, given this.  I had Nolder as 9 on a 10 scale as likely scum.  I'll dial that down to about a 6 with 5 being neutral.

 

 

Thanks for pointing this out, because it makes these upcoming Via posts seem even weirder 

[Tommyrod]

 

So you thinking then that as the deadline got closer and it looked like GE was going down instead of Nolder there was some bussing? Elf's hammer was super scummy to me, and also their admitted skimming.

 

##vote Elf

It's certainly a possibility, but this vote reeks. For one, you were also about to hammer, from what you said, Krak as well, making you both as guilty of this as elf.

Terribly scummy action, hally

 

And am I the only one here who doesn't view skimming as a scum tell? >.>

Not necessarily, imo. But as mafia, one can rely on teammates more, and besides, they don't NEED to case as much as a townie, only to put up appearances.

 

 

Hoof joins the Hallia-hate wagon too

 

 

 

Yes, and it appears that I'm doing an exceptionally poor job at it too.

Remind me what* your case is?

 

 

- She isn't actively scumhunting

- She isn't giving her reads

- She only comments on the details

- She had that weird interaction with Golden

 

 

I have played a couple of times with Via before and she is definitely a better player than this. I think she just isn't as good at being mafia as she is town.

 

 

 

## vote Nolder

 

If Nol flips town then I will start looking your way Tom, you seemed to be tunneling on him lately

 

This was vote #6 on Nolder.  Normally a good place to bus...but his attached comment causes some doubt.  Looks like he knows Nolder is town and wants to set up Tommy when Nolder would flip.

 

 

## vote Nolder

 

If Nol flips town then I will start looking your way Tom, you seemed to be tunneling on him lately

 

What are you even saying here? Not only have I *not* been tunneling on him, but I just myself expressed doubt about this wagon since it's got a pretty big majority for D1. You'll notice my vote's not on him.

 

Seriously, wtf. 

 

 

Tommy's reaction here makes it look like a true WTF moment. 

 

So, given this.  I had Nolder as 9 on a 10 scale as likely scum.  I'll dial that down to about a 6 with 5 being neutral.

 

 

I don't see how you could have missed that post from Golden about Nolder and Tom when it has been mentioned several times by a couple of players (I for example kept bringing it up when I posted my reads). You failed to push Nolder's lynch forward and now you all of a sudden conventiently discovered that post? And after all that casing you did about him too? I'm not buying it.

 

 

Cloud continues developing his scum read on Via

 

Am re-reading from the start, am on about page 25 so far, so a good 10 pages to read till the end of the day

 

Leelou - she was pinging quite a bit to begin with: lots of jokey / spammy posts that didn't add anything to the game, apart from a bit of back and forth with nolder: no comenting on the other stuff that was going on. her reads she did on page 21 bring it back to a null at this point.

 

The whole elf-on-peace and cloud-on-elf seems to have gone on for longer than they needed to, but I put this down to not very many people being about over christmas

 

Then I noticed this

 

04 - GoldenEyes (mentored by Despothera)

Self conscious opening in #29. I have no idea what he's saying in #65, looks spammy. Comes back in #208 after a long absence and reads both me and Turin as town and makes some reads with little to no justification. Could be actually busy and not mentally invested, but ping anyway. More christmas wishes in #227; sick of that stuff, lol. Talk about the damn GAME! Elf vote in #277 feels pretty random; I agree that Elf isn't hunting, but that's mostly due to defending against Cloud. She should get more involved from here on out.

 

 This pinged abit because it ends with a comment abit elf, instead of concentrating on golden. I looked at it again when I re-read this.

 

 

Your vote's been on Golden for a while, right? About half the game now, in terms of posts. I'm surprised you haven't moved onto something else considering he hasn't said much, if anything, since you attacked him... for voting Elf, right? Yet you've had your own suspicions of Elf? Is that not what you're accusing Theo of doing?

 

I felt it was a bit of a wishy-washy read (particularly the bit I've bolded - it seems a half hearted ping) then the prompt for peace to move his vote from golden. I beleive that this is how the vote count looked at the point Tommy posted this: Golden with most votes and leelou saying that she oule be comfortable voting him as well.

 

Elf - 1 - Golden

Peace - 1 - Hoof

Golden - 3 - BFG, Peace, Thea

Hoof - 1 -  Tommy

Hally - 2 - Nolder, Leelou

Turin - 1 - Cloud

 

 

Edit: I ungreened the vote count, so it isn't confused with a current vote count

 

Am now at the end of Day 1.

 

what stood out most to me was that Nolder was one vote from being lynched about 3 hours from deadline - not to the wire but not exactly lots of time till the end of the day either.

 

Then Tommy moved his vote to Golden, putting him at 5 votes with Nolder at 7 (8 to lynch). For this I gave him metaphorical 'town points' for this, because it put Golden in the running for being lynched.  However  then Tommy posted this:

 

 

The fact someone hasn't hammered yet makes me feel good about this.

 

Why?

 

 

I'd expect scum to quickly mobilize on a town wagon. If it's a scum wagon and it's obviously not going to change, I'd expect scum to hammer before a townie does to get town cred. If it's a scum wagon and there's a chance it'll change, they won't hammer.

 

 

This gives me bad feelings about Nolder and Tommy: Tommy had the chance to hammer Nolder, secure a lynch well before deadline but didn't, and gave the lynch 'a chance to change'.

 

Then came votes on to Theo and Krak, before we finaly got enough votes to lynch Golden.

 

 

will move on to day 2 tomorrow

 

Yet somehow Via manages to twist my interactions with Golden and Nolder into a scum lean on me when I was doing my best to be reasonable and lynch the scummiest person at EOD1 -- and, mind you, I was actually correct in my leanings since Golden was mafia and Nolder was town. So Via's argument, in her own words, is that I'm scummy for not hammering Nolder (a townie) and instead lynching Golden (mafia). This is terrible reasoning, and is especially pingy because Peace and Via interpreted the same serious of events in almost the exact opposite way.

[Tommyrod]

In summation: Hoof and Via seem like strong scum suspects now. Peace, Cloud and Krak do not. 

[Nolder]

Preaching proper play is something I tend to do, especially in Basic games.

I believe I explained that at some point this game. I try to make it a learning experience for new players.

I don't usually hold myself up as an example so my bad play is kind of irrelevant to that.

It's kind of funny how your self professed main point about bad sportsmanship (lecturing others) is itself bad sportsmanship through lecturing others.

 

Also as an aside, my voting Krak because you and Peace are opposite is misconstruing the situation and I have made that clear.

I would have voted Krak either way but you and Peace voting opposite on Blackhoof sealed the deal for me and made me feel much better about that vote.

You were not the sole reason.

[Tommyrod]

Preaching proper play is something I tend to do, especially in Basic games.

I believe I explained that at some point this game. I try to make it a learning experience for new players.

I don't usually hold myself up as an example so my bad play is kind of irrelevant to that.

It's kind of funny how your self professed main point about bad sportsmanship (lecturing others) is itself bad sportsmanship through lecturing others.

 

Also as an aside, my voting Krak because you and Peace are opposite is misconstruing the situation and I have made that clear.

I would have voted Krak either way but you and Peace voting opposite on Blackhoof sealed the deal for me and made me feel much better about that vote.

You were not the sole reason.

 

If you could restate or quote the reasoning behind distrusting Peace and myself, and separately your reasoning for thinking Krak is scum, that would be helpful. I know you're more up to date than I am, but I find your logic very bizarre at times, so I'm inclined to believe you could be blatantly wrong.

[Nolder]

 

Preaching proper play is something I tend to do, especially in Basic games.

I believe I explained that at some point this game. I try to make it a learning experience for new players.

I don't usually hold myself up as an example so my bad play is kind of irrelevant to that.

It's kind of funny how your self professed main point about bad sportsmanship (lecturing others) is itself bad sportsmanship through lecturing others.

 

Also as an aside, my voting Krak because you and Peace are opposite is misconstruing the situation and I have made that clear.

I would have voted Krak either way but you and Peace voting opposite on Blackhoof sealed the deal for me and made me feel much better about that vote.

You were not the sole reason.

 

If you could restate or quote the reasoning behind distrusting Peace and myself, and separately your reasoning for thinking Krak is scum, that would be helpful. I know you're more up to date than I am, but I find your logic very bizarre at times, so I'm inclined to believe you could be blatantly wrong.

 

Peace: Avoided getting involved for a while, refused to give reasoning on votes even when asked by multiple people, I think his vote on Golden was a bus vote that he parked early, the way he voted Halia while seemingly being able to make a better case on me at the time, his reaction to a bit of setup talk.

 

Tommy: Got into it with Peace early but oddly both seem to have let it go, has since sided with Peace on most issues, first to vote Hallia and rode it to the lynch, I also suspect your spammy/aggressive-friendly style is a cover for your scum behavior as I said before I think Turin called you out right away with trying to lead town.

 

Krak: Because everyone else keeps bringing him up. Yes it's a pretty bad reason to lynch someone. However I am not going to cause a voting deadlock just because I have better suspects. If I haven't been convincing enough I guess that is on me. If people who keep bringing up Krak but aren't actually that convinced themselves I feel that that's on them. I've said repeatedly I don't see the case on Krak but I have nothing but a "neutral" read on him and too many people are saying it for it to be a purely scum driven campaign. And I'm not going to vote Blackhoof without a good case because unlike Krak I've noticed Blackhoof saying what I consider to be townie things far more recently than Krak. Particularly when Peace was going off on me about the setup talk. And as I said before you and Peace voting Blackhoof made it that much easier of a choice.

[Elaevia]

for some reason I can't get onto the site on my pc, but the iPad is fine(????) so I'm sure editing down quotes will get quite tedious quite quickly

 

 

Am now at the end of Day 1.

 

what stood out most to me was that Nolder was one vote from being lynched about 3 hours from deadline - not to the wire but not exactly lots of time till the end of the day either.

 

Then Tommy moved his vote to Golden, putting him at 5 votes with Nolder at 7 (8 to lynch). For this I gave him metaphorical 'town points' for this, because it put Golden in the running for being lynched. However then Tommy posted this:

 

 

 

The fact someone hasn't hammered yet makes me feel good about this.

 

Why?

I'd expect scum to quickly mobilize on a town wagon. If it's a scum wagon and it's obviously not going to change, I'd expect scum to hammer before a townie does to get town cred. If it's a scum wagon and there's a chance it'll change, they won't hammer.

This gives me bad feelings about Nolder and Tommy: Tommy had the chance to hammer Nolder, secure a lynch well before deadline but didn't, and gave the lynch 'a chance to change'.

 

Then came votes on to Theo and Krak, before we finaly got enough votes to lynch Golden.

 

 

will move on to day 2 tomorrow

Yet somehow Via manages to twist my interactions with Golden and Nolder into a scum lean on me when I was doing my best to be reasonable and lynch the scummiest person at EOD1 -- and, mind you, I was actually correct in my leanings since Golden was mafia and Nolder was town. So Via's argument, in her own words, is that I'm scummy for not hammering Nolder (a townie) and instead lynching Golden (mafia). This is terrible reasoning, and is especially pingy because Peace and Via interpreted the same serious of events in almost the exact opposite way.

Tommy, you said that you thought mafia would vote a townie. Nolder was very close to a lynch, and didn't get enough votes to lynch him, therefore mafia didn't 'mobilse' as you put it, which is suggesting - to me anyway- that nolder is mafia. And as you were the one that really got the ball rolling again on Golden, it drew my attention to you. With the information that golden was mafia my train of though then goes down to 'if nolder is mafia could peace have a roll that is worth sacrificing golden for'. So yes, that looked scummy to me.

 

Nolder claimed doc three real life days after I posted this. So rethinking: you were present to hammer on peace who I now know to be town. I don't believe you would have voted golden over nolder if you were mafia.

 

I posted shortly after nolder claimed doc, reassessing and saying I felt better about you being town because of this ( though I have explained it in for detail here)

 

*edited to fix the quote boxes, and because my iPad things nolder should be called either holder or bolder

[Tommyrod]

 

 

Preaching proper play is something I tend to do, especially in Basic games.

I believe I explained that at some point this game. I try to make it a learning experience for new players.

I don't usually hold myself up as an example so my bad play is kind of irrelevant to that.

It's kind of funny how your self professed main point about bad sportsmanship (lecturing others) is itself bad sportsmanship through lecturing others.

 

Also as an aside, my voting Krak because you and Peace are opposite is misconstruing the situation and I have made that clear.

I would have voted Krak either way but you and Peace voting opposite on Blackhoof sealed the deal for me and made me feel much better about that vote.

You were not the sole reason.

 

If you could restate or quote the reasoning behind distrusting Peace and myself, and separately your reasoning for thinking Krak is scum, that would be helpful. I know you're more up to date than I am, but I find your logic very bizarre at times, so I'm inclined to believe you could be blatantly wrong.

 

Peace: Avoided getting involved for a while, refused to give reasoning on votes even when asked by multiple people, I think his vote on Golden was a bus vote that he parked early, the way he voted Halia while seemingly being able to make a better case on me at the time, his reaction to a bit of setup talk.

 

Tommy: Got into it with Peace early but oddly both seem to have let it go, has since sided with Peace on most issues, first to vote Hallia and rode it to the lynch, I also suspect your spammy/aggressive-friendly style is a cover for your scum behavior as I said before I think Turin called you out right away with trying to lead town.

 

Krak: Because everyone else keeps bringing him up. Yes it's a pretty bad reason to lynch someone. However I am not going to cause a voting deadlock just because I have better suspects. If I haven't been convincing enough I guess that is on me. If people who keep bringing up Krak but aren't actually that convinced themselves I feel that that's on them. I've said repeatedly I don't see the case on Krak but I have nothing but a "neutral" read on him and too many people are saying it for it to be a purely scum driven campaign. And I'm not going to vote Blackhoof without a good case because unlike Krak I've noticed Blackhoof saying what I consider to be townie things far more recently than Krak. Particularly when Peace was going off on me about the setup talk. And as I said before you and Peace voting Blackhoof made it that much easier of a choice.

 

I'm not sure why you're ignoring the interactions Golden had with both me and Peace that would make you think the two of us are mafia, yet ignoring his interactions with both Hoof (him changing his read on Hoof from scum to town) and Via (see the post I quoted above by Cloud) which are more damning, IMO. Peace and I had it out and came to enough of a resolution that I am satisfied with that just as Cloud and Elf did in D1, or Turin and I did -- and in addition, Peace's interaction with Golden, as I've said a few times and I think others have said, is pretty clearing for Peace. So I think Peace is town and I am town, thus: you're way off base with your reads and need to reconsider.

 

To further the point of how far off base you are: your case on Krak makes no sense to me. What you just said is 1) you don't have a scum read on him, 2) people have mentioned he's suspicious but haven't pushed the lynch through, 3) too many people said it for it to be a scum campaign, 4) you don't want to cause vote deadlock? #1 is inherently nonsensical, #2 and #3 are illogical because scum love to say people are scummy but not push the townie to death because it draws unwanted attention to themselves, and #4 should have no bearing on where you put your vote. You put it on the person you think is scummiest, if that's not Krak or Hoof then you should make a case for who the scum is. I find you extremely difficult to understand.

 

@ Via, if that's the case and you did correct your read on me then that's my bad for not reading the entire thread and I'll re-consider tomorrow with that in mind, but I wouldn't say it negates other reasoning for why you are a scum candidate. How do you suggest we proceed with the rest of today? I notice you haven't voted.

[Elaevia]

 

@ Key - I'm commenting at a discussion that was happening a little while ago. I quoted you to illustrate what I was commenting on, though my post wasn't aimed directly at you, which I could have made clearer.

 

@ Cloud - I am trying to remember how long you have been setting up my lynch from, I think it's almost the entire length I've been in the game!

 

Attempt to discredit both of them?

 

Yes, and it appears that I'm doing an exceptionally poor job at it too.

 

ah well, practise makes perfect I suppose!

Does anyone know Via well enough to say if this is typical behavior from her -- laughing off strong accusations?

 

 

 

How was that discrediting Key?

 

This is what I was responding to:

 

 

 

 

@Cloud - I disagree about mafia team not working in tandem when it comes to emotion. I have seen, and been a part of, QT's where teammates are telling others to chill, or be careful with their responses when it comes to emotion. If people are working together as a team, why rule that possibility out?

I have edited this quite as I am just commenting in this bit.

 

I think the influence the mafia team has on each others would vary very much depending on who the team is, how emotional or otherwise they are as a person, the time zones they are in and when they have had a chance to read the thread and post in the QT...... So really too many factors to judge right now.

 

Though in theory that is how a mafia town would work, watching each others backs, but in this case wew can't start supposing on what is happening on the mafia thread.

 

Why do you choose this to respond to out of everything else that's been said recently? That's weird to me. Also, it's way less about what's on the mafia QT and more about Krak's aggressive post and whether it should be viewed as scummy or not.

 

 

and the thing with cloud - I found it amusing, pure and simple! it seemed like I was always cloud's secondary mafia suspect, not matter who was first: I called him on it, he admitted it but in a self depreciating kinda way - it struck my funny bone, that's all.

[Tommyrod]

I think we're getting off track. Let's focus on today. Who is the best lynch, and why? I've taken my stance, and I'd like to see yours. If you already said it, just restate it for me, as I am lazy. 

[Elaevia]

 

will do so next time :P

 

 

on reread though, Krak is looking less scummy. honestly, was that all I had on him that made me suspicious? ugh

 

 

 

 

He is the best choice of the bunch. You were previously, but now that has changed for the nonce.

 

 

I can't find where you said what you found suspicous about Krak in the first place, or where you've said what you think is suspicous about him now

 

edited for my bad, bad spelling

[Blackhoof]

Krak's cocky attitude of late is bad. Like he is feigning it to do a "whoops my bad" when i flip town.

[Krakalakachkn]

I mean I'm bad, but not like that.

[peacesells]

Via. You said that you "now know" I am town. How do you know I am town?

[_CLOUD]

I have kinda been neglecting the game this weekend because I had other things going on but I managed to catch up again!

 

To answer Tommy's first question. Hoof is the answer.

Not on Goldens lynch. Was on Hally's lynch. Has been opportunistic all game.

You and almost everyone else were also on Hally’s train so I don’t like it how you are using it as a reason to push for Hoof’s lynch. It sounds like a cheap way to try and accuse someone of being scum, and it's hypocritical to boot.

 

Yeah, I'm fine with either a Cloud of Hoof lynch. Pretty sure both are scum, rated in that order. What has Cloud really done this game other than harp on me and faux scum hunt? Sure he was on Golden's lynch, but I'm not clearing him for that. Looks like he's getting giddy ever since BFG posted his math read and Elf was modkilled.

I'm fine with going for Hoof today though. ##Vote Hoof.

 

This actually made me laugh. You did a good job with delaying your OMGUS vote on me for so long.

 

What have I really done this game? Oh I don’t know. I have only been right about most of my town reads so far and I’m pretty confident that I have pegged the remaining mafia members too. You know as much as anyone else here that you weren’t the only person I have harped on so please don't try to act like I have been tunneling on you all game long. It’s also very easy to accuse me of fake scumhunting without providing any sort of proof or reasoning why you think so.

 

It's also good to know that Hoof is town.

 

edited loadsa stuff out below for clarity:
 

 

Krak, can you explain your voting pattern statement in regards to me?

First on Golden, prime on Hallia. No foolproof tell or anything, just wanted to note it. But Cloud's voting record is also pretty suspect with that hammer on Hallia and second to last on Golden.

 

I disagree that Cloud's hammer was scummy: Hallia was that only person that was going to be lynched that day. Yeah, maybe it was a bit hasty (there was 6-9 hours or something to go) but it fits in with Cloud asking for deadlines as someone who is keen for the game to be moving (or cloud was being impatient )

when some-one is so close to being lynched I beleive that it is the town thing to do to make sure that we secure the lynch and get the information - Hallia was about earlier on so if she had an important role to claim she would have done it. As she was vanilla I don't think if she had claimed that it would have changed anything.

And as it is such a towny thing to do I generally see it as null - as it is so easy for mafia to hide in.

 

I do appreciate your defense of me, but just know that it isn’t going to change my mind about you being mafia

 

@Hoof - what do you really have on Cloud that's actually beneficial to town?

 

I find it interesting how you said “you” instead of “we” before you mentioned town. A possible scum slip?

 

 

That was quite possibly the worst move you could have made. Seriously the worst move (besides voting BFG).

The two* remaining scum ladies and gentlemen!






*or 2/3

No no no you were right the first time.

 

You really are quite bad at this aren’t you?

 

 

for the record I think it's fine for players to change their opinion, that in itself I don't find scummy at all.

I suppose to me using 'vindicated' would be more applicable if you had been actively pushing for his lynch, making cases and rebutals on him, etc. Not just that you found him scummy, were going to hammer and he turned out to be mafia.

It seems a bit over the top for that.

 

for the record I think it's fine for players to change their opinion, that in itself I don't find scummy at all.

I suppose to me using 'vindicated' would be more applicable if you had been actively pushing for his lynch, making cases and rebutals on him, etc. Not just that you found him scummy, were going to hammer and he turned out to be mafia.

It seems a bit over the top for that.

I agree with this. I don't think Hallia did anything of note to push the golden lynch, nor were there people condemning her opinions on him so that she would feel vindicated.

 

I'm not sure what to make of the Cloud/Via interaction here since both sides seem to be arguing a somewhat specific point out of the many of reasons Hallia's play was scummy, but if Via flips scum Cloud should be clear regardless.

 

You mean Peace and Via right? I already had Hallia as a town read at the time.

[_CLOUD]

Via. You said that you "now know" I am town. How do you know I am town?

 

It's obvious that she meant to say Nolder. You should pick a post with a little more substance to distance from her.

[Elaevia]

Via. You said that you "now know" I am town. How do you know I am town?

 

I meant nolder - too busy swearing at ipad to proof read - sorry