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Sukarno is NOT Callandor.  The Choedan Kal were the most powerful sa'angreal ever made, then Callandor, then other sa'angreal.  Thus Callandor could do much more damage than the 2nd order sa'angreal.  Egwene couldn't do anything like what Rand did with Callandor when she held Vorin's sa'angreal, and the same goes for Dem with Sukarno.

 

I never said it was.  Sure Callandor is the strongest, but that doesn't mean Sakarnen is weak.  You're just guessing that Einar was wrong when we really have no reason to believe that's the case.  This is TG, the battle to decide the fate of the world.  It's highly likely that one of the Forsaken would come to the party in a full circle.

 

While reading the battle, I was assuming that the circle gradually lost strength as his minions were killed. This seems reasonable given the numbers involved, but there is no indication in the text this happened.

It is certainly noted in the battle that Dem was like an army in his own right, and BF'ing all those people made it much easier for the Shadow.  Had Dem not been taken out, the battle would have been lost.

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To be fair, I don't think Demandred really is in a full circle. That's just the assumption one character makes because he feels so powerful with his Sa'angreal.

I guess that's possible, but the text is specific. Einar says "A full circle. Seventy-two." Why would BS write such specific dialogue if it wasn't at least mostly accurate? For all we know Einar saw a group of people there and did quick count in his head. Maybe it was a slight exaggeration but I highly doubt there was a circle of only 5-10.
Sukarno is NOT Callandor. The Choedan Kal were the most powerful sa'angreal ever made, then Callandor, then other sa'angreal. Thus Callandor could do much more damage than the 2nd order sa'angreal. Egwene couldn't do anything like what Rand did with Callandor when she held Vorin's sa'angreal, and the same goes for Dem with Sukarno.

>TITLE: Shadow Rising

CHAPTER: 9 - Decisions

"I cannot trust you fully, Lews Therin. Not yet." She [Lanfear] came closer, and he [Rand] considered simply seizing her. He was bigger and stronger by far - and blocked as he was, she could wrap him up with the Power like a kitten tangled in a ball of string. "Not with that, certainly," she added, grimacing at Callandor. "There are only two more powerful that a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists. No, Lews Therin. I will not trust you yet with that." "Stop calling me that," he growled. "My name is Rand. Rand al'Thor.

"
Demandreds very well may have been that other item.

Possible, but maybe not. My personal theory was always that the Ring of the Tamrylin was the missing middle sa'angreal.

 

When Dem gives the scepter to Taim, he mentions some crap. If he's not lying, it's unreasonable not to infer that it's the missing sa'angreal Lanfear talks about in the tSR quote. (This is not to say that plot-wise it makes a lick of sense, and this is the fault of everyone with a name on the book.)

 

Granted, since you want the Ring of Tamyrlin to be an important thing, there's nothing we can usefully discuss...I really hate reading about Sparhawk types.

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It is certainly noted in the battle that Dem was like an army in his own right, and BF'ing all those people made it much easier for the Shadow.  Had Dem not been taken out, the battle would have been lost.

 

I never got that impression.  The battle never focused on Demandred for any length of time and he didn't destroy the Dragons or Matt's camp.  He didn't even strike at Matt's camp because he said it was somehow an invincible fortress of solitude.

 

From Demandred's POV he was:

 

"... opposite the hill that Moghedien said they called Dashar Knobb.  The rock formation rose high in the air; its base was a fine position for a command post, sheltered from attacks from the One Power"

 

He then goes on about how he can't attack or travel to Matt's command post because it was "...possibly a trap, surrounded as it was by those high rock walls" 

 

This makes no sense at all.  What position would withstand balefire or any other powerful exploding earth/lightening/fire/etc blast??  How is a rock formation sheltered from the One Power when it is completely possible for Demandred to just crumble the earth around it or just use balefire to carve the whole mountain up??  This was before he gave Sakarnen to M'Hael so he still had access to its power.

 

If this had been Rand and he knew where one of the Forsaken was, he would have demolished anything to get to them.  That Demandred says he can't destroy a rock formation just seems ridiculous.

Edited by mrhumble1

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I think that Egwene with Vorn's sa'angreal being able to beat Taim with Sukarnoe shows that Sukarnoe was not exceptional.

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I think that Egwene with Vorn's sa'angreal being able to beat Taim with Sukarnoe shows that Sukarnoe was not exceptional.

 

This argument is missing the point and not making a fair comparison.

 

No, Taim's loss proved Taim is not exceptional.  Also, Taim with a sa'angreal cannot be at all compared to Damandred with a sa'angreal and in a circle. 

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I think that Egwene with Vorn's sa'angreal being able to beat Taim with Sukarnoe shows that Sukarnoe was not exceptional.

 

This argument is missing the point and not making a fair comparison.

 

No, Taim's loss proved Taim is not exceptional.  Also, Taim with a sa'angreal cannot be at all compared to Damandred with a sa'angreal and in a circle. 

What I'm saying is that if Sukarnoe was more powerful than Callandor, Taim would surely have won that duel, as we know that Egwene is less powerful than Nynaeve, and I don't think there's anything to suggest that Eg's sa'angreal was very powerful.

 

If it is thus established that Sukarnoe is NOT as powerful as Callandor, then Dem simply wouldn't have the power to destroy the Light armies as Rand had done with Callandor.

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One limit to Demandred's destruction, could have been easily stated. Unfortunately it was not. Even within a full circle of 72, the strength of the circle would depend on how many men and women were the ratio. If it were a 66-women 6-men, it would have been significantly weaker than a 37-women 35-men circle. Taking all the possible Light side channelers (minus Damene), depending on the ratio used, the Light could have had 15 to 45 full circles as well. Or many many more non full circles that could have deflected damage. Remember circles give a portion of an individual's power, not all of it. With the dark having multiple circles too, it could have provided a 'reasonable' reason for neither side gaining a sure victory. Too bad this wasn't included as a limiting reason in the book for Demandred not being able to roflstomp the armies of Light. The tools were there to be used, looks like they were ignored instead.

Edited by ZorValachan

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I think that Egwene with Vorn's sa'angreal being able to beat Taim with Sukarnoe shows that Sukarnoe was not exceptional.

 

This argument is missing the point and not making a fair comparison.

 

No, Taim's loss proved Taim is not exceptional.  Also, Taim with a sa'angreal cannot be at all compared to Damandred with a sa'angreal and in a circle. 

What I'm saying is that if Sukarnoe was more powerful than Callandor, Taim would surely have won that duel, as we know that Egwene is less powerful than Nynaeve, and I don't think there's anything to suggest that Eg's sa'angreal was very powerful.

 

If it is thus established that Sukarnoe is NOT as powerful as Callandor, then Dem simply wouldn't have the power to destroy the Light armies as Rand had done with Callandor.

 

You're still missing the entire point.  I'm gonna just stop trying to explain myself,

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I don't think there's anything to suggest that Eg's sa'angreal was very powerful.

We can't make an exact comparison with Demandred's sa'angreal, but it is pretty powerful.  Its the most powerful sa'angreal in the White Tower, and from Egwene's use of it against the Seanchan it has a fairly big impact on her strength.  It is described in Egwene's POV as a very powerful sa'angreal.  True, I'm not sure Egwene is much of an expert though..  Additionally, this scene shows the strength of a circle.  Even using only half trained novices who are probably nowhere near their potential Egwene considers herself "death personified" and has several thoughts as to how powerful it makes her.

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I think that Egwene with Vorn's sa'angreal being able to beat Taim with Sukarnoe shows that Sukarnoe was not exceptional.

I think that Sakarnen being stated to be exceptional makes it exceptional, or at the least means that is more strongly indicated than the reverse. And it is stated to be comparable in power to Callandor - so either it is a sa'angreal that is nearly as strong, or it is the one that is stronger.

 

 

 

I think that Egwene with Vorn's sa'angreal being able to beat Taim with Sukarnoe shows that Sukarnoe was not exceptional.

 

This argument is missing the point and not making a fair comparison.

 

No, Taim's loss proved Taim is not exceptional.  Also, Taim with a sa'angreal cannot be at all compared to Damandred with a sa'angreal and in a circle. 

What I'm saying is that if Sukarnoe was more powerful than Callandor, Taim would surely have won that duel, as we know that Egwene is less powerful than Nynaeve, and I don't think there's anything to suggest that Eg's sa'angreal was very powerful.

 

If it is thus established that Sukarnoe is NOT as powerful as Callandor, then Dem simply wouldn't have the power to destroy the Light armies as Rand had done with Callandor.

Problem is, strength is not a guarantee of victory. Taim with Sakarnen was stronger than Egwene with Vora's Wand. She still won, he still lost. Why? Because she was better. That remains true no matter how powerful Sakarnen is. Strength is an advantage, not a guarantee.

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I agree with the problem with channeller-power. The times we have seen Rand annihilating enemy-forces in the past books always bugged me in perspective of the battle on Merrilor, also while reading it. I always had the feeling, that those armies could be wiped out in a heartbeat by powerful channelers. My only explanation - though it is a fairly weak one, I admit - would be, that you basically can´t do it if you face lots of enemy channelers, since they would just be able to counter/overwhelm you.

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Rand always used AoL stuff to kill his hordes though. Probably the whole reason not to send Rand to the BT earlier was because if he had a Light side tower after VoG, he spends a weekend with them and the Asha'man wipe out the trollocs without thinking. though Moiraine fights off 3 fists in EotW with an angreal, so there is still a big problem.

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Hmm, rereading looks like I was wrong. I'll explain how sometime, but I'd rather some of the previous posters explain the creation of Dragonmount and other things with this new view of how the OP and *angreal work instead. (I can understand missing something subtle, but this is something referenced all the time in the books.)

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It is certainly noted in the battle that Dem was like an army in his own right, and BF'ing all those people made it much easier for the Shadow.  Had Dem not been taken out, the battle would have been lost.

 

I never got that impression.  The battle never focused on Demandred for any length of time and he didn't destroy the Dragons or Matt's camp.  He didn't even strike at Matt's camp because he said it was somehow an invincible fortress of solitude.

 

From Demandred's POV he was:

 

"... opposite the hill that Moghedien said they called Dashar Knobb.  The rock formation rose high in the air; its base was a fine position for a command post, sheltered from attacks from the One Power"

 

He then goes on about how he can't attack or travel to Matt's command post because it was "...possibly a trap, surrounded as it was by those high rock walls" 

 

This makes no sense at all.  What position would withstand balefire or any other powerful exploding earth/lightening/fire/etc blast??  How is a rock formation sheltered from the One Power when it is completely possible for Demandred to just crumble the earth around it or just use balefire to carve the whole mountain up??  This was before he gave Sakarnen to M'Hael so he still had access to its power.

 

If this had been Rand and he knew where one of the Forsaken was, he would have demolished anything to get to them.  That Demandred says he can't destroy a rock formation just seems ridiculous.

 

I never got the idea that he was physically incapable of destroying the camp...simply that he held back because he suspected a trap by LTT when he tried.

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With Sukarnen, Dem says something about it to Taim: these are two bad guys, so how can people believe Dem here?  Sukarnen doesn't seem to do anywhere near Callandor's damage when either Dem or Taim have it, therefore my conclusion is that it's not a super-powerful sa'angreal.  If it was at least as powerful as Callandor, Taim would have crushed Egwene in their duel.  Yes, strength isn't everything, but someone brutally strong will almost always beat someone much less strong, and Taim was skilled.

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For a GRRM moment... how about Demandred taking off Galad's arm???? That is GRRM, considering that in the one book of his I own, he wrote even more graphically that this.

Edited by wotfan4472

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Granted, since you want the Ring of Tamyrlin to be an important thing, there's nothing we can usefully discuss...I really hate reading about Sparhawk types.

 

Same logic that was insisting Demmy was in the Land of the Madmen, ie:  Demmy had to be somewhere, LoM was somewhere, ipso facto Demmy must be in the LoM.

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Getting off topic with the Sakarnen debate, I suggest taking it over to the Demandred thread instead. 

I think it's spelled Psackaernuey, Barid.   

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Was there ever a mention of Ishamael/Moridin using a sword or even being able to use a sword? I thought it was quite out of character for him.

 

Overall the book was not bad for being fan-fiction. I'm still avaiting the real one.

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Was there ever a mention of Ishamael/Moridin using a sword or even being able to use a sword? I thought it was quite out of character for him.

 

Overall the book was not bad for being fan-fiction. I'm still avaiting the real one.

 

Well, he managed to overmatch Rand in melee with a staff in Falme.  This was after Rand was able to kill a blademaster in a duel...so it's always been clear he was no slouch in close combat.

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Was there ever a mention of Ishamael/Moridin using a sword or even being able to use a sword? I thought it was quite out of character for him.

 

Overall the book was not bad for being fan-fiction. I'm still avaiting the real one.

 

Well, he managed to overmatch Rand in melee with a staff in Falme.  This was after Rand was able to kill a blademaster in a duel...so it's always been clear he was no slouch in close combat.

 

That's' not how it happened.  Rand intentionally "sheathed the sword" to gain an advantage on Ba'alzamon.  

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Was there ever a mention of Ishamael/Moridin using a sword or even being able to use a sword? I thought it was quite out of character for him.

 

Overall the book was not bad for being fan-fiction. I'm still avaiting the real one.

 

Well, he managed to overmatch Rand in melee with a staff in Falme.  This was after Rand was able to kill a blademaster in a duel...so it's always been clear he was no slouch in close combat.

 

That's' not how it happened.  Rand intentionally "sheathed the sword" to gain an advantage on Ba'alzamon.  

Implying he would have lost otherwise. You don't typically intentionally kill yourself to win, if you think you're going to win.

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