Quality Discussion Thread

[rane008]

They may have been studying those prophecies, but it was very apparent to me that they had forgotten those prophecies while arguing, or at the very least, forgotten how what their interpretations of those prophecies were.

 

Moiraine came in and reminded them, everyone not just Egwene and Rand, what are the correct interpretations of the prophecies.

 

The characters may have come off as blunt and heavy handed because they allowed their emotions to control themselves, thus falling back into old habitual interactions between the two of them since their Emonds Field days. 

 

1.  He's not saying the characters were blunt and heavy-handed.  He's saying the writing and the plotwork were.  Big difference.  And he's right, there was no nuance to Rand or Egwene.

 

2.  Your last sentence just smacks of apologism.  You're trying to find reasons for bad writing that are consistent with the characters who are being written so poorly?  No creds there man.

 

3.  The entire scene was boggled big-time.  The build-up to Moiraine's return and her role was immense.  And what happens?  She has to play mom to the two most powerful people in the world behaving like children.  I mean, seriously, they were calling each other NAMES.  That's hardly the self-control that these characters have exhibited consistently in the past. 

[Semirhage666]

That scene was written acceptably well to be just a scene where something happens. Not as good as it should or could have been, but acceptable.

 

 

Being told now that that scene WASN'T just a scene where something happens, that instead it is THE scene Moiraine is needed for, makes me laugh because that is ridiculous. The way that scene was written, Moiraine did not come off in any way as utterly world-saving. My God.

 

I'm so disappointed with SO much of this point, I'm wondering how the heck I had no big complaints with the last 2.

[Vambram]

 

They may have been studying those prophecies, but it was very apparent to me that they had forgotten those prophecies while arguing, or at the very least, forgotten how what their interpretations of those prophecies were.

 

Moiraine came in and reminded them, everyone not just Egwene and Rand, what are the correct interpretations of the prophecies.

 

The characters may have come off as blunt and heavy handed because they allowed their emotions to control themselves, thus falling back into old habitual interactions between the two of them since their Emonds Field days. 

 

1.  He's not saying the characters were blunt and heavy-handed.  He's saying the writing and the plotwork were.  Big difference.  And he's right, there was no nuance to Rand or Egwene.

 

2.  Your last sentence just smacks of apologism.  You're trying to find reasons for bad writing that are consistent with the characters who are being written so poorly?  No creds there man.

 

3.  The entire scene was boggled big-time.  The build-up to Moiraine's return and her role was immense.  And what happens?  She has to play mom to the two most powerful people in the world behaving like children.  I mean, seriously, they were calling each other NAMES.  That's hardly the self-control that these characters have exhibited consistently in the past. 

 

 

You have your opinion, and I have mine. For me, that scene was NOT poorly written and botched by Sanderson and Team Jordan. For me, this was a well done scene which I enjoyed. 

[Suttree]

You have your opinion, and I have mine. For me, that scene was NOT poorly written and botched by Sanderson and Team Jordan. For me, this was a well done scene which I enjoyed. 

The problem being Vam, at this point you have literally said that in response to every single compaint. If we are to go off your reaction this was a perfectly written book without one flaw. Further you haven't backed up why it was done well aside from just saying you like it. That just doesn't hold up.

[Vambram]

I have never ever said one time that this was a perfectly written book.

 

What I have said is that for me, it was a very well done book. If someone asks my opinion, Sut, then I will tell them that I thoroughly  enjoyed 95% of AMOL.

[rane008]

I have never ever said one time that this was a perfectly written book.

 

What I have said is that for me, it was a very well done book. If someone asks my opinion, Sut, then I will tell them that I thoroughly  enjoyed 95% of AMOL.

Ok, I'll ask.  Do you have a single complaint about AMOL?  If so, what is it/are they?

[Vambram]

I would have liked to see more of the missing interactions between our favorite characters which almost everyone else here has, in my opinion, correctly complained about not being there.

[Suttree]

I have never ever said one time that this was a perfectly written book.

No you have never said that, but you have responded to every quality of writing post as you did above with the FoM meeting. Saying you thought it was very well done and were totally satisfied. Saying you would have liked to see more interactions between characters is a matter of personnel opinion, not critique.

[Stormcrown]

I think people do tend to forget the character progression of Egwene and Rand.

 

Despite all of their character building, they are still what, 18-20 year olds? If that?

 

Even those with iron self control would slip into their speech patterns they used for 90+ percent of their life.

[Vambram]

I did not say that I criticize this book because I wanted to see more interactions between the characters. What I said was that I am criticizing AMOL because I wanted to see some of the Missing interactions;  such as Lan and Moiraine;  such as Rand, Perrin, Mat, Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, Aviendha, and Min all together with each other at the same time. I would have loved to see a reunion of Moiraine and Siuan. I would have enjoyed reading something with Moiraine and Cadsuane together. It is stuff like this which could have been done subtlety without taking away from the general plot lines of AMOL. In fact, I think meetings like that would have made AMOL a better book than the very well written book it already is, in my opinion. 

[rane008]

I think people do tend to forget the character progression of Egwene and Rand.

 

Despite all of their character building, they are still what, 18-20 year olds? If that?

 

Even those with iron self control would slip into their speech patterns they used for 90+ percent of their life.

Yeah, probably not.  Rand now has hundreds of years of life experience in his head and is all Zen-like.  Egwene had to contend with the dissemblings and designs of both Halls and Elaida.  Both are politically savvy.  Think of what would have happened if Nixon and Mao had gone about calling each other names.  As for your last sentence, it's just incorrect.  That's what iron self-control is, not slipping into patterns.  And, this is not in line with either's character.

[Elan Tedronai]

I think the saddest aspect in all this is that the quality of work got worser with each release. I didnt think the abomination that was TOM would have been topped but AMOL truly had it beat. And when you consider it's the last book in a series that spanned all these years one cant help feeling a little bitter.

[Stormcrown]

 

 

I think people do tend to forget the character progression of Egwene and Rand.

 

Despite all of their character building, they are still what, 18-20 year olds? If that?

 

Even those with iron self control would slip into their speech patterns they used for 90+ percent of their life.

Yeah, probably not.  Rand now has hundreds of years of life experience in his head and is all Zen-like.  Egwene had to contend with the dissemblings and designs of both Halls and Elaida.  Both are politically savvy.  Think of what would have happened if Nixon and Mao had gone about calling each other names.  As for your last sentence, it's just incorrect.  That's what iron self-control is, not slipping into patterns.  And, this is not in line with either's character.

 

 

Those are horrible examples. Rand's interaction with Moraine establishes my point of view.

 

Nixon/Mao example is just...completely horrible.. Egwene and Rand have only had their respective positions for less than a year, and the books take place over 2 years.

 

While Rand does have 400+ years of experience he does separate himself at times. Saying he is incapable of just being Rand is inaccurate. There are many examples of him diving his two lives. While he speaks of being both, the two ARE different people. Although I'd argue it was WAY more Egwene than Rand slipping into those bad habits.

 

He speaks of the memories as dreams, this IS a distinction from using the term memories. He is not Lews Therin, he is Rand+LTT's memories.

[rane008]

 

 

I think people do tend to forget the character progression of Egwene and Rand.

 

Despite all of their character building, they are still what, 18-20 year olds? If that?

 

Even those with iron self control would slip into their speech patterns they used for 90+ percent of their life.

Yeah, probably not.  Rand now has hundreds of years of life experience in his head and is all Zen-like.  Egwene had to contend with the dissemblings and designs of both Halls and Elaida.  Both are politically savvy.  Think of what would have happened if Nixon and Mao had gone about calling each other names.  As for your last sentence, it's just incorrect.  That's what iron self-control is, not slipping into patterns.  And, this is not in line with either's character.

 

Those are horrible examples. Rand's interaction with Moraine establishes my point of view.

 

Nixon/Mao example is just...completely horrible.. Egwene and Rand have only had their respective positions for less than a year, and the books take place over 2 years.

 

While Rand does have 400+ years of experience he does separate himself at times. Saying he is incapable of just being Rand is inaccurate. There are many examples of him diving his two lives. While he speaks of being both, the two ARE different people. Although I'd argue it was WAY more Egwene than Rand slipping into those bad habits.

 

He speaks of the memories as dreams, this IS a distinction from using the term memories. He is not Lews Therin, he is Rand+LTT's memories.

Yeah, what?  What do you mean by Rand's interaction with Moiraine? 

 

You can call the comparison with Nixon/Mao horrible, I guess, but that doesn't make it less applicable.  We are talking about two powerful leaders meeting to negotiate, right?  R and E have proven themselves to be thoughtful, savvy, tactful folk who are experienced in the nuances of politics.  Sure, my example has people more experienced, so what?  The comparison was in relation to the high stakes nature of the talks. 

 

I'm not talking about him be "just Rand".  I'm talking about a scene that seems to have been designed to show how immature the two most powerful people in the world are.  And that is NOT in keeping with their charcaters.  The dialog was equal parts fan-service and butchery. 

[Stormcrown]

"More experienced"?

 

Mao and Nixon were what, 40+? They weren't teenagers thrust into a role of leadership. It's completely different. There's hardly anything similar other than two leaders.

 

They have proven themselves to be tactful. They've also BOTH proven themselves to be stubborn and have Egwene/Rand have had a history of being extremely stubborn towards each other.

 

I will happily admit it wasn't the best scene, but the situation between them was way more complex than a political issue as well. Egwene was refusing to critically think about it and seemed to disagree simply because she was stubborn/it was Rand. It wasn't a debate at all. They were never going to agree no matter what was said. The only thing to build up to was the Moraine encounter.

 

What sort of interaction did you envision? I'm curious as to what could have been different. They get super angry and walk away? They disagree calmly and at the end of it Moraine comes in?

[rane008]

"More experienced"?

 

Mao and Nixon were what, 40+? They weren't teenagers thrust into a role of leadership. It's completely different. There's hardly anything similar other than two leaders.

 

They have proven themselves to be tactful. They've also BOTH proven themselves to be stubborn and have Egwene/Rand have had a history of being extremely stubborn towards each other.

 

I will happily admit it wasn't the best scene, but the situation between them was way more complex than a political issue as well. Egwene was refusing to critically think about it and seemed to disagree simply because she was stubborn/it was Rand. It wasn't a debate at all. They were never going to agree no matter what was said. The only thing to build up to was the Moraine encounter.

 

What sort of interaction did you envision? I'm curious as to what could have been different. They get super angry and walk away? They disagree calmly and at the end of it Moraine comes in?

Sound point on the stubbornness.  Freaking Two River, amirite!?! 

 

That said, I did not expect name-calling.  That's juvenile and not in keeping with their characters.  It broke the mental image for me.  Jordan had a knack for nuanced dialog.  Double-meaning, sublty, dissembling.  None of that is present here. 

[Stormcrown]

I wouldn't even say Jordan was better.

 

Rand and Egwene in TGS/ToW had some better dialogue, although I think Sanderson had more control over the scenes, and we really don't know how much of those scenes Robert Jordan wrote.

 

But honestly, what would you have preferred from that encounter? I've been trying to think of something that would have been better but im struggling.

[nitavonne]

I felt so betrayed by the way my favorite characters were dealt with, the lack of continuity and resolution in the superb way I was used to read in the books, the misuse of the world of time vocabulary  that I have not been able to re-read it. I do wish again that Terez and the nucleus of super-readers would have been hired to ensure quality control.

[Rhienne]

I would have preferred to see them realising that arguing wasn't going to get them anywhere, that time was limited, and they needed to reach some kind of agreement.  It seems like the combination of zen-Rand and the woman who has managed to reunite the Tower from the ground up would be able to have a discussion like grown ups.  This scene undid a lot of the progress made in Rand's and Egwene's characters in the last couple of books.  It was like they hadn't matured at all since leaving the TR (and yes I know that was only two years ago, but the rest of the plots have led us to believe they have grown up and developed considerably during this period).

 

But then if this had happened Moiraine wouldn't have had a role at all.

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

I honestly don't see anything wrong with the way things went down between Rand and Egwene. The entire book from the very first chapter is this sort of back and forth between men and women. The Council and the Women's Circle. Every time there is a confrontation of some sort between men and women in the books it's somewhat childish. Seriously. Each group tries to exert absolute control over the other and looks at the other as foolish and childish. And since Rand has confessed that the difference between him and LTT is that he had a better upbringing, I see no problem at how the Dragon Reborn and the Amyrlin from his village, indeed his first love, would act like this. In fact, I think that the people who want everything in the story to stem from character construction would see this to be the case. 

[Mats Spare Hat]

Anyone else been lurking on the Twitter?

Just ninja'd up Luckers' page, and according to what he's posted he was threatened with a lawsuit - over his(Luckers) planned release of a sort of tell-all, as far as his experiences, inclusion, and involvement, behind the scenes, with regard to AMoL, sanderson & team jordan, and thereby won't be releasing "The Unseen World," as I read was his title for said work.

Don't think it's too far of a stretch to assume it would have revealed a great deal regarding quality, process, all the nuances not privy to from being on the outside & then some, so to speak.

One has to wonder though, considering threats of litigation, who's got what to hide, fear, or lose?

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

Also, who has something to gain from such a release. That's a good question, too.

[Cybertrolloc]

Really, that's all that's seen as wrong with the Merrilor meeting? Granted it's a rather lengthy list, I'm not sure where to start and get even the largest issues out in fewer than 500 words.

[Mats Spare Hat]

I kinda figured part of the reason Luckers peaced out from being an Admin on this site was an effort to limit liability of his planned release, so to speak. As though if there were a heavy handed blowback, he wouldn't have wanted it to rest on the shoulders of anyone else.

I dunno, I don't see any real gain, from a release, unless he planned on charging for it...Which sort of seems contrary to the impression of what kind of person he is, but that's based on observations of his postings here on DM, of course.

It's an interesting angle though, interested parties getting a more inside look into the finishing of a series that a whole lot of us grew up with, or at least are into enough that they join a fansite & post on message boards, I guess...

[Suttree]

So doing a re-read on certain sections and so much of the modern terminology is killing me.

 

AMoL

 

Selucia could teach sandpaper a thing or two about being rough.

Apparently Mat's memories include the future now as well?

 

Believe there is a reference to Galad "telegraphing" his thoughts in AMoL too.