Concerns Regarding Discussion on Brandon Sanderson

[Suttree]

 And yes, if someone asserts that Sanderson and TJ were lazy, uncaring or greedy in finishing the series the way that they did, with no other evidentiary backup other than their personal feelings that things did not turn out the way that they should, then those assertions are personal attacks, without basis, which pretty clearly tarnish the WoT community and especially Dragonmount.

 

But that simply isn't true.  For instance when people have questioned the effort they bring up things such as Brandon only studying the notes for three months, the various mistales that still made it into the final book, and Team Jordan having to change his writing process to include more drafts so the work wasn't so unpolished. When they talk about commercial interests taking precedence over artistic merit they point to the split and decisions such as moving the BT arc into AMoL not because it was best for the story but because they ran out of time and didn't want to push the date back for ToM.

 

The reality is all of this has been discussed in great detail with support being offered for people's opinions. I should point out though that one person who hasn't been backing up their claims is you.

 

Oh and since you bring up Luckers I will touch on him briefly. For all that I wish he could have went about things better, people need to get over the "how" and ask themselves "why". He is one of the most informed fans in terms of how everything played out.

[BFG]

Since Luckers can't respond to these discussions, I suggest that he's left out of it all together.

[Hayward1979]

The reality is all of this has been discussed in great detail with support being offered for people's opinions

 

 

Actually, it has not been discussed much beyond the summary you just provided.  And if that is your evidentiary basis for some of attacks on Brandon then I'm sorry, but I cannot take the argument seriously.  Simply pointing out the same two or three things that, even if true, have very little relevance as to the dedication or motivations of Brandon and TJ, is not an honest debate.  [removed]

 

Secondly, I don't think it is fair to say that Brandon-hate has splintered the community - there have always been disagreements, Brandon is merely something different to disagree about.

 

 

In my opinion, not to this level.  The vitriol associated with ToM and AMoL from certain elements of the fandom have affected TJ's plans for the WoT universe. I know that the "official" line for not moving forward with outrigger novels or other stories set in the WoT universe is that RJ's notes were too minimal.  However, I can assure you that is not case.  I would love to say more about that particular topic, but cannot.  I know that you will be skeptical, if not completely disbelieving, about that claim, and rightfully so I suppose since I am not citing the source, but it's the truth.

[Suttree]

Actually, it has not been discussed much beyond the summary you just provided.

Much beyond the summary...in this thread. It has all been discussed ad nauseum with highly detailed posts both here and at Theoryland for years now. It would be a mistake to assume that just  because you come across a certain fan who seems to be brief in one post, that they have not been detailed in others.

 

Simply pointing out the same two or three things that, even if true, have very little relevance as to the dedication or motivations of Brandon and TJ, is not an honest debate.

All of it is true and has been supported by Q&A's, or in terms of mistakes can be pointed out in the books. [Removed]

 

[removed]

[removed]

 

So let's not fool ourselves into believing that the Brandon-bashers actually want an honest debate on the topic.

[Removed]

 

The vitriol associated with ToM and AMoL from certain elements of the fandom have affected TJ's plans for the WoT universe. I know that the "official" line for not moving forward with outrigger novels or other stories set in the WoT universe is that RJ's notes were too minimal.  However, I can assure you that is not case.  I would love to say more about that particular topic, but cannot.  I know that you will be skeptical, if not completely disbelieving, about that claim, and rightfully so I suppose since I am not citing the source, but it's the truth.

 

 Well it's not just that the notes are "too minimal"(though they are). It has always been that RJ is very much against any "shared world' type of scenario and they are respecting his wishes on that mark. It wasn't until the very end that he even allowed the main series to be finished.

 

Interview: Nov 7th, 2009

TGS Signing Report - Meg Lurvey (Paraphrased)

 

Domani Lass ()

After Knife of Dreams came out, Robert Jordan had said he was writing two more prequels...will you [brandon] do them and what's the status on them now?

 

Brandon Sanderson

 

There are notes for two prequels, one based around Tam's story, and the other about Moiraine and Lan before they went to the Two Rivers. There are also notes for three additional books, outriggers, which take place in the Wheel of Time world.

Brandon equates being handed the Wheel of Time series with being handed the One Ring—the longer you hold onto it, the harder it gets to let go. He doesn't want to ruin Robert Jordan's world; Robert Jordan and the series deserve to be allowed to rest. However, Tom Doherty wants them to be written, though the decision is ultimately up to Harriet—if she decides they should be written, he'll do it, but his gut says 'no', they won't be. At this, he was met with an "aaawwww!" from the fans, and nodding, he said that it is with a heavy heart but he feels it would be best. The last he heard, Harriet was leaning towards 'no'.

 That is from long before the critique started...time to get a better source.

 

Here is one from moe recently:

 

 

Question

Okay, and the final question is:

 

Are there any—and I'm sure you get this question a lot—are there any plans for any aspect of the Wheel of Time universe to keep going, maybe in another story?

 

Brandon Sanderson

No, we are not doing any more books. Robert Jordan specifically didn't want more books being written, so we feel it's best to both respect his wishes and stop while we're ahead. That doesn't preclude video games from being made, and so we perhaps may see films or video games or sort of things like that that will tell some of these other stories, but as for fiction, it is done. So, thank you for the questions, David, and thank you for reading.

 

 Now at this point you have made a good number of accusations and yet have offered very little in the way of substance. Why don't YOU give us a detailed breakdown of what Brandon has done well and why you feel the work was a success. Perhaps it will spur a constructive debate and give everyone a better understanding of where you are coming from. I can assure you people will respond in kind. I very much look forward to it.

[Occams whiskey bottle]

I think the biggest tragedy out of this entire debacle is the Wheel of Time franchise. Robert Jordan already had his critics before he passed, many suggesting he was the hack of a bloated series that wasn't worth reading. And now there is a segment within the Wheel of Time community that says roughly the same thing. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but this is a series that I often recommend to new readers, and when they go online and read the comments they often are discouraged to even pick up the first book which is too bad.

 

The fact is if the series was to survive, and be read by future generations it needed an ending. No one, or very few at least, would read through 11 books and a bunch of notes describing how things might have ended. It seems to me that the biggest critics of Sanderson's work are those who wanted the series to go unfinished and the notes published, as well as people who could not accept that Sanderson's writing style was different from Jordan's. I think that when you look at those two groups of people it is understandable that most of them would not have been happy regardless of who finished the series. I'm not suggesting that their criticism is wrong, only that they went into the final books looking for mistakes.

 

I always felt that Rand, Mat, and Perrin always boiled down to three different aspects of Robert Jordan's life. Rand represented Vietnam and PTSD. Perrin: RJ's love of wife and family. Mat: RJ's youth which included, gambling, womanizing, smoking, drinking, practical jokes and so on and so forth. I think that when you compare Brandon Sanderson to Matrim Cauthon you can see why Brandon had such a hard time with the character. Brandon Sanderson is a Mormon who doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, doesn't womanize, or hardly anything else that defines Mat. Not saying that it can't be done, just saying that I can see why Mat would have been the most difficult character to write.

 

I'm also not saying that Brandon Sanderson did a flawless job. I personally always felt that Tad Williams would have been the best fit. Of course an established writer would have little reason to step into another authors world, since it would be all risk and no reward. In the end I entered into the final three books knowing that it was going to be different. It had to be different. In the end, I feel he did the best job he could have done with the talent and material that he possessed, and that is good enough for me. If there was one mistake that I think they made it was splitting the POV's up into different books, but of course that is all in hindsight, which we all know is 20/20.

 

I could break the final three books down, and criticize them with the best of you if I wanted, but doing so only hurts the Wheel of Time franchise, which I care about deeply. I don't want this series to be forgotten, instead I want it to be read by fantasy fans for decades to come. I want future fans to go to work and ponder the many mysteries found in the book, while wondering what happens to their favorite character next. I want the Dragon to ride the winds of time forever! For that to happen you have to love the series as a whole, warts and all, even the Sanderson books...

[Hayward1979]

 The mere fact that you use the bolded above shows quite clearly where you stand in terms of an an honest debate.

 

 

Ha!  Freudian slip on your part I guess - I did not bold the phrase, but you apparently did.

 

That is from long before the critique started...time to get a better source.

 

 

Considering that my source is from spring of this year and not 2009, I think my source wins.

 

I think the biggest tragedy out of this entire debacle is the Wheel of Time franchise. Robert Jordan already had his critics before he passed, many suggesting he was the hack of a bloated series that wasn't worth reading. And now there is a segment within the Wheel of Time community that says roughly the same thing. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but this is a series that I often recommend to new readers, and when they go online and read the comments they often are discouraged to even pick up the first book which is too bad.

 

I could break the final three books down, and criticize them with the best of you if I wanted, but doing so only hurts the Wheel of Time franchise, which I care about deeply. I don't want this series to be forgotten, instead I want it to be read by fantasy fans for decades to come. I want future fans to go to work and ponder the many mysteries found in the book, while wondering what happens to their favorite character next. I want the Dragon to ride the winds of time forever! For that to happen you have to love the series as a whole, warts and all, even the Sanderson books...

 

 

 

This actually gets my point across much better than I have been able to. I have personally known many people that were interested in the series, and then either read on this site or are told by a Brandon-basher that it's not worth starting the series because Brandon ruined it, Brandon was greedy only did it for the money, Brandon was lazy and never cared about RJ, etc., etc. 

[Suttree]

 

Ha!  Freudian slip on your part I guess - I did not bold the phrase, but you apparently did.

Ermm what? Of course I bolded it, to highlight what I was referencing.

 

Considering that my source is from spring of this year and not 2009, I think my source wins.

The first quote shows what they were thinking long before the critique started. The second quote is from the spring of this year. Try again.

 

So Hayward...when do we get to see your breakdown?

[Rhienne]

This actually gets my point across much better than I have been able to. I have personally known many people that were interested in the series, and then either read on this site or are told by a Brandon-basher that it's not worth starting the series because Brandon ruined it, Brandon was greedy only did it for the money, Brandon was lazy and never cared about RJ, etc., etc.

 

I have seen very few people saying Brandon was greedy, or questioning his motivation.  Yes, some people are unhappy with the way Brandon finished the story, but they are entitled to that opinion.  If you come onto a discussion forum the whole point is for people to discuss their different opinions.  If everyone said 'Oh I loved it, it was great.' of the last three books there would be a lot less activity on this site and others.  Instead posters on both sides of the debate have had many long-running discussions on the quality of the final three books (and indeed, the other books in the series as well), which have been for by far the greatest part, civil and mature discussions which focused on critiquing and defending the work rather than attacking the author.

 

Anyone interested in reading the series is perfectly capable of reading the numerous positive reviews of the series and looking at the ratings of most of the books on Amazon (all of BS's books have 4.5 stars on the UK version of the site).  Of course everyone wants WoT and RJ's legacy to live on, but anyone thinking of reading a series is going to be interested to know that the author changed at the end of the series, and that the new author had to make up large parts of the plot and character development with no guidelines.  Potential readers will realise that such a drastic change - and the knowledge that they will never know how RJ intended the characters and plots they had been following for decades to end - would in itself be quite a disappointment.  For some people, they still enjoyed the final three books (for some people they are their favourites in the series).  Others find the style change and changes in characters sufficiently jarring that it does spoil the series for them - and that is a legitimate opinion as well.  

[Barid Bel Medar]

This has devolved from a discussion on the effects of discussion on Brandon Sanderson into a platform for attacking members. 

Let me be clear: Debate the effects of the discussion on Quality and the negative opinions that have been presented with regards to the 'reputation' of the WoT community, not attacking the negative views or the intent of the poster. Making accusations regarding the intent of posts made by members - such as stating people do not want an honest debate or that someone clearly doesn't know what they are talking about - is not acceptable. It shall not be tolerated. 

 

Reply to the content of the posts - not any perceived intent behind them. 

 

It has never, and shall not be tolerated. Any offending posts shall be immediately removed in the future - regardless of the rest of the post's content.

[Mr Ares]

 

Secondly, I don't think it is fair to say that Brandon-hate has splintered the community - there have always been disagreements, Brandon is merely something different to disagree about.

 

In my opinion, not to this level.  The vitriol associated with ToM and AMoL from certain elements of the fandom have affected TJ's plans for the WoT universe. I know that the "official" line for not moving forward with outrigger novels or other stories set in the WoT universe is that RJ's notes were too minimal.  However, I can assure you that is not case.  I would love to say more about that particular topic, but cannot.  I know that you will be skeptical, if not completely disbelieving, about that claim, and rightfully so I suppose since I am not citing the source, but it's the truth.

It may well be the truth, but what you say conflicts with what RJ said (he always expressed a reluctance to let other people play in his sandbox), and what Team Jordan and Brandon have always said in interviews. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Also, the online community is a small percentage of WoT fans - to make decisions about a mass-audience release based on the reactions of a small and unrepresentative section of the readership would be very bad business. That said, if we have played a part in convincing Harriet to not produce any more WoT fiction, however unlikely it seems, we have done something good.

 

As to the level of the fan split, it's really no different to anything else. The decision to split the books saw a backlash so intense that the topic got banned for a few months. Debate on Egwene threatened to take over the boards until it was put under similar restrictions to quality discussion. The Brandon books are more divisive than RJ's ones are, I'll grant you, but that's because we are a forum of WoT fans (so liking RJ's books is pretty much a prerequisite for being here - at least in the WoT discussion sections), and the bad RJ books (especially Crossroads) don't divide opinion - the reason fans are divided here is because many of them actually liked the books, which is surely a better reaction than the universal dislike of CoT?

 

 

I think the biggest tragedy out of this entire debacle is the Wheel of Time franchise. Robert Jordan already had his critics before he passed, many suggesting he was the hack of a bloated series that wasn't worth reading. And now there is a segment within the Wheel of Time community that says roughly the same thing. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but this is a series that I often recommend to new readers, and when they go online and read the comments they often are discouraged to even pick up the first book which is too bad.

 

I could break the final three books down, and criticize them with the best of you if I wanted, but doing so only hurts the Wheel of Time franchise, which I care about deeply. I don't want this series to be forgotten, instead I want it to be read by fantasy fans for decades to come. I want future fans to go to work and ponder the many mysteries found in the book, while wondering what happens to their favorite character next. I want the Dragon to ride the winds of time forever! For that to happen you have to love the series as a whole, warts and all, even the Sanderson books...

 

This actually gets my point across much better than I have been able to. I have personally known many people that were interested in the series, and then either read on this site or are told by a Brandon-basher that it's not worth starting the series because Brandon ruined it, Brandon was greedy only did it for the money, Brandon was lazy and never cared about RJ, etc., etc. 

I fail to see how this is any different to what went before? Many felt RJ was greedy and was spinning the series out for money - a sentiment that I've seen more on this site than that Brandon was doing it out of greed. Many felt RJ lost control of the series. On this site, there are plenty of people who are willing to say that Brandon rescued a series that had lost its way, or maybe just that he ended it well. If people are put off starting the series because of mixed feelings, then there have always been plenty of mixed feelings to discourage them. I don't think a fansite is exactly the place to go for an unbiased assessment of the quality, but both here and in other places there are people who like Brandon (as a person, as a writer, or just his work on the series) and people who don't. There is a full spectrum of opinion here, and the same in other places - some are creatures of extremes, who intensely dislike everything Brandon did and others really loved it. And, I have to say again, this strikes me as a better response than CoT, the single most loathed book in the series, hands down. I can far more easily find a TGS, ToM or AMoL fan here than I can a diehard CoT fan - even on an RJ fansite, even in a place which has an innate bias in favour of RJ and his works, it is easier to find people who will tell you to skip CoT than that it was a great book. At best, it is damned with faint praise, more often it is damned - how is this not worse for a prospective reader of the series? On the one hand, people say "some fans don't like the new author, others do." On the other, "wow, not even the fans are willing to say nice things about this one. It really must be bad." I'm just not seeing how fans having a wide spectrum of opinions on Brandon is so much worse than fans having a wide spread of opinions on anything else, or fans having a universally negative opinion of something. (Hell, even Terry Goodkind has more fans here than Crossroads of Twilight does.) I'm not seeing how the fan community or the series is made worse by the discussion of Brandon (outside of personal attacks on him, which aren't tolerated anyway), simply because some views of the quality of his work happen to be negative.

[ShenAnCalhar]

The thing that probably gets me most about Sanderson is that I feel like he didn't have his head completely in the game, so to speak.  The interviews revealed this to me; it's like he really didn't do much studying or analyzing of the series.  He was writing his own books alongside the WoT series, so he was unfocused.

 

I understand that he still has his own material to write, but couldn't someone who was willing to focus entirely on WoT be found?  I see a lot of people on these boards that have a superior knowledge of the series to the guy that finished it, which really grinds my gears.  Then when he got called out by the community on missing something, he'd throw in some ridiculous band-aid in the next book.  

 

 

Here I'm referring to the Maradon angreal and Mat's third letter, as examples.

 

Then I find myself not wanting to take what he writes as canon.  For example, the whole broken wolf thing - was that an RJ prophecy?

 

SLEEPINGHOUR (23 JANUARY 2013) Who was the Broken Wolf?

BRANDON SANDERSON (23 JANUARY 2013) Perrin's spirit guide. Note that the "he" in the next sentence does not refer to the same creature.

DARRELL WYATT Did the Shadow Prophecy at the end of Towers of Midnight come to pass? If so can you explain as I did not recognize it.

BRANDON SANDERSON Everything in it happened, but not exactly as many would have interpreted.

 

Of course referring to:

 

"In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself"

 

Kind a lazy, evasive answer, right?  First, there isn't a "he" in that sentence, I think he must mean his.  So what does that even mean?  That "his" refers back to the Fallen Blacksmith?  Would be shoddy use of possessive pronouns and STILL wouldn't make sense, since Perrin was not destroyed.  And in no way did Hopper's death "bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men."

 

 

I do find myself thinking of KoD as the last "real" book a lot.  I will say that I'm very happy that Jordan was able to give us KoD, it's in my opinion possibly the best book in the series, if not very close.

[Suttree]

Pretty classic bit on Sanderson.

 

http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/09/30

[Mr Ares]

The thing that probably gets me most about Sanderson is that I feel like he didn't have his head completely in the game, so to speak.  The interviews revealed this to me; it's like he really didn't do much studying or analyzing of the series.  He was writing his own books alongside the WoT series, so he was unfocused.

 

I understand that he still has his own material to write, but couldn't someone who was willing to focus entirely on WoT be found?  I see a lot of people on these boards that have a superior knowledge of the series to the guy that finished it, which really grinds my gears.  Then when he got called out by the community on missing something, he'd throw in some ridiculous band-aid in the next book.  

Couldn't someone solely willing to focus on the series be found? Probably not. I mean, Brandon is a fan of the series, and not incapable as a writer. If you eliminate everyone who was no good and everyone who didn't want to do it from contention, then that doesn't leave an awfully large pool of writers. If you then rule out anyone under contract to produce books of their own, then who's left? I don't think that Brandon's other works detracted from WoT. He was still able to put out the books in fairly short order, and some of the time he spent writing other books (such as WoK) was down time to give himself a break from the series, something which all authors need, and if he wasn't writing those other books would simply mean he wasn't writing anything. I don't think the problems can be laid at the feet of Brandon's other works. His own dislike of rewrites seems a far more significant factor, and also his unwillingness to really commit to learning the notes (maybe not everything, but it does seem he gave up earlier than he should have).

 

And Suttree, that comic is right on the money.

[Cybertrolloc]

Well, if we go by the published lies, Harriet and Tom (head of Tor) were idiotic on the subject, there was no way an intelligent choice could have been made, and we're lucky it came out as arguably well as it did. You did name a few likely prospects at some point M Ares (didn't write drek, Tor contracted, not having a huge announced project)...I think January Jones was an example?

 

Brandon's public words on how he writes mystify me too.

[ShenAnCalhar]

His own dislike of rewrites seems a far more significant factor, and also his unwillingness to really commit to learning the notes (maybe not everything, but it does seem he gave up earlier than he should have).

My argument is that his dislike of rewrites and unwillingness to learn the notes would decline drastically if he wasn't writing other epic fantasy novels, which as we know take a huge amount of time to plan and execute.  But I understand your belief that there may not have been a better option.  I think Brandon actually shows moments of true brilliance despite my overall...intense dislike of his writing style.

[Mr Ares]

 

His own dislike of rewrites seems a far more significant factor, and also his unwillingness to really commit to learning the notes (maybe not everything, but it does seem he gave up earlier than he should have).

My argument is that his dislike of rewrites and unwillingness to learn the notes would decline drastically if he wasn't writing other epic fantasy novels, which as we know take a huge amount of time to plan and execute.  But I understand your belief that there may not have been a better option.  I think Brandon actually shows moments of true brilliance despite my overall...intense dislike of his writing style.

The point is, those other fantasy books (such as Way of Kings) were what he wrote in his down time away from the series - so he wouldn't be doing WoT if he wasn't doing those. If someone says "I need a break to stop myself burning out on this project", then they are either going to do a different project, or they're not going to do a project at all. The time that he spent on WoK and M:AoL was time that wasn't going to be spent on WoT regardless. While I think he should have spent more time on WoT, I don't think his other projects are a relevant consideration - he needed a break. The problem is he turned things in too soon, when he should have rewritten more. It's much the same argument as people complaining about how long it took GRRM to write AFFC and ADWD - chaining him to his desk and taking away his internet connection would not have resulted in a significant increase in the pace of writing. He did other projects, and things outside of writing, but they were not the cause of the problem. It's doubtful that either of them would have had a dramatic upsurge in productivity (Martin) or quality (Sanderson) had they tried to focus exclusively on the one project - sometimes, getting time away allows you to come back to things with greater clarity than if you had simply spent the intervening time working on the same thing. WoT didn't suffer because Brandon wrote other books.

[wotfan4472]

For me the Sanderson issue got to the point where when it comes to discussing anything to do with Wheel of Time nowadays, it seems that people posting cannot seem to accept that others have their opinions, especially on topic threads, such as Rand vs DO. As a result, we had , and have posters were they were wanting proof of every bloody thought, which started to get quite annoying, especially for me, when I post with the thought in my head at that moment,  and lack the know-how of how to post that proof. These often then turn into how good Sanderson was with the last three books, which then turn into how good RJ was with his, which then turn into what RJ said in certain interviews regarding certain situations, which then turn to drowning out people that are posting on topic.  

 

This sort of thing got out of hand, because posters such as Luckers would then come down posting versions of lightning and fireballs the size of continents to turn the topics back on track. 

 

This is no gripe at the DM's, just an observation that perhaps the posters that have been around since the birth of this amazing community got quite frankly pissed off with doing it all the time. Especially when coming on after ToM and finding almost every bloody thread either locked or in tatters, especially for a newbe like me whom had the misfortune of becoming a member right on the TGS release and reading it. I gained insights that I did not have and learned to read more, especailly in regarding the Latra Posae vs Lews Therin discussion, which was one of the few that was not affected with these camps.

[ShenAnCalhar]

WoT didn't suffer because Brandon wrote other books.

You state this as fact, and claim to know how he handles project management as if you're personally acquainted.  I don't see how the GRRM comparison is even relevant; GRRM has always been a slow writer, clearly agonizing about every minor detail, and he is utterly focused on ASoIaF (including the TV adaptation).

 

You claim Sanderson didn't take enough time with WoT, then state that time put into Way of Kings could not possibly have been time invested in WoT, because clearly that's not the way writers work.  I think Sanderson wanted to get on writing his own stuff, hence WoT was not his primary focus for long enough, and the books were more unpolished than they could have been because of it.  I thought you had chosen the "there was one else"  viewpoint, which would probably be a stronger stance.  

 

But we might as well leave it at that, since I don't believe I've ever seen you concede a point.  I've said my piece.

[Mats Spare Hat]

I think Ares was more so stating that if you look at Sandertar-er..Sanderson, and you say okay, whether or not he was going to spend that other time on another project, whether it was writing, on vacation, grocery shopping, schlepping around town - It was time that wouldn't have been spent on WoT, in any case, irregardless of what he chose to do in that time off.

Thus, it's not a question of spending not enough time on WoT, as a direct result of spending too much other time on something else, but more so of a question of does/did the writer have the balls to actually follow through on the level of quality of which this series really deserved - to demand that extra time required on a whole, to have the introspection to recognize how some scenes are fairly well done, but are stuffed into a narrative quality that's way too sporadic in it's consistency.

WoT didn't suffer because BS wrote other books - It suffered because BS maintained a slew of inadequacies across three books, in his ability as a writer, his (in)ability to personally apply himself to source material(notes for example), and a lack of scruples with regard to meeting a tremendous opportunity with absolute personal dedication & effort, taking full advantage of all resources and avenues available, to arrive at the best finished product possible.

He didn't spent enough time on these books, not he spent too much time on something else. [Removed]

[Mr Ares]

 

WoT didn't suffer because Brandon wrote other books.

You state this as fact, and claim to know how he handles project management as if you're personally acquainted.  I don't see how the GRRM comparison is even relevant; GRRM has always been a slow writer, clearly agonizing about every minor detail, and he is utterly focused on ASoIaF (including the TV adaptation).

I merely pay attention to what is said and work things out from that. I consider reading and thinking to be useful skills. Mistborn: Alloy of Law, for example, was not intended for publication initially, simply as a change of pace writing exercise. As for GRRM, it is a relevant consideration because people have criticised him for doing things other than writing ASoIaF - he's edited anthologies, done work on Wild Cards, produced short stories, and (worst of all) done things outside of his job, such as writing blog posts and attending conventions, and received flack for all of it. And don't try telling me he hasn't, because I've seen it. Neil Gaiman memorably blogged about it. (This paragraph is directly elevant to this argument: "Some writers need a while to charge their batteries, and then write their books very rapidly. Some writers write a page or so every day, rain or shine. Some writers run out of steam, and need to do whatever it is they happen to do until they're ready to write again. Sometimes writers haven't quite got the next book in a series ready in their heads, but they have something else all ready instead, so they write the thing that's ready to go, prompting cries of outrage from people who want to know why the author could possibly write Book X while the fans were waiting for Book Y.".)

 

You claim Sanderson didn't take enough time with WoT, then state that time put into Way of Kings could not possibly have been time invested in WoT, because clearly that's not the way writers work.

No, I talked about Sanderson's writing process. All writers need to take breaks, just like all other human beings. RJ did things other than sit chained to a desk writing WoT - should we say that CoT was bad because he went fishing one time too many? Just because an author should have spent more time on a project doesn't mean that some other project is responsible for stealing that time away.

I thought you had chosen the "there was one else"  viewpoint, which would probably be a stronger stance.

It's not an incompatible viewpoint - him being the best available option doesn't in any way detract from the idea that his other projects didn't interfere with WoT.

 

But we might as well leave it at that, since I don't believe I've ever seen you concede a point.  I've said my piece.

I'll concede a point when I'm wrong. But I choose to give battle on ground that favours me - I commit to a point because I have good reason to believe it is probably right, not because it is some passing fancy. Because I'm good at picking my fights (and good at fighting the fights I pick) I seldom end up being wrong. You can give up trying, or you can try and become a better debater.

 

I think Ares was more so stating that if you look at Sandertar-er..Sanderson, and you say okay, whether or not he was going to spend that other time on another project, whether it was writing, on vacation, grocery shopping, schlepping around town - It was time that wouldn't have been spent on WoT, in any case, irregardless of what he chose to do in that time off.

 

Thus, it's not a question of spending not enough time on WoT, as a direct result of spending too much other time on something else, but more so of a question of does/did the writer have the balls to actually follow through on the level of quality of which this series really deserved - to demand that extra time required on a whole, to have the introspection to recognize how some scenes are fairly well done, but are stuffed into a narrative quality that's way too sporadic in it's consistency.

 

WoT didn't suffer because BS wrote other books - It suffered because BS maintained a slew of inadequacies across three books, in his ability as a writer, his (in)ability to personally apply himself to source material(notes for example), and a lack of scruples with regard to meeting a tremendous opportunity with absolute personal dedication & effort, taking full advantage of all resources and avenues available, to arrive at the best finished product possible.

 

He didn't spent enough time on these books, not he spent too much time on something else. [Removed]

That's pretty much it. It's not a case of "I could write WoT or something else", it's a case of "I could do some rewrites on WoT or just say it's done and send it to the printers". (Well, that's simplified a bit, but you get the picture.)

[Hayward1979]

WoT didn't suffer because BS wrote other books - It suffered because BS maintained a slew of inadequacies across three books, in his ability as a writer, his (in)ability to personally apply himself to source material(notes for example), and a lack of scruples with regard to meeting a tremendous opportunity with absolute personal dedication & effort, taking full advantage of all resources and avenues available, to arrive at the best finished product possible.

 

 

Here we go again.  Thank you for again illustrating why Sanderson and TJ think so much less of the WoT community than it did before the last three books.

 

I'll concede a point when I'm wrong. But I choose to give battle on ground that favours me - I commit to a point because I have good reason to believe it is probably right, not because it is some passing fancy. Because I'm good at picking my fights (and good at fighting the fights I pick) I seldom end up being wrong. You can give up trying, or you can try and become a better debater.

  

 

And since you assign yourself as the sole arbiter of when you are "wrong," you never concede a point, as ShenAlCalhar correctly noted in the middle of winning the debate with you. 

[Mats Spare Hat]

I'm sorry, and you would be in the know, as to the personal thoughts and emotions of one B. Sanderson, and all of Team Jordan, with specific regard to the entirety of the WoT Community?

One could infer that BS exclaimed his own position of not even taking into consideration fan reaction, as I recall he exclaimed at one point I believe, as per an interaction with Luckers, that he didn't take on this project for the fans - he did it for Harriet, and RJ. So to come round about with the concept that he somehow thinks 'so much less' of the WoT community is rather uncouth - as to say, by his own admission he already maintained the separation of whether or not fan reaction held any sort of impact on his own perception regarding the finished product. 

Hell, he even went about practically covering his own ears to negative reception - exclaiming that he KNOWS he did a good job. That's amongst bouts of proclaiming some of the shortcomings were accounted for, in his belief, due to pressures and influences of TJ, throwing Harriet under the bus so to speak, and then coming back around later on, and stating that because Harriet said he did a good job, than that was the only source of validation he needed. One minute he passes blame at her feet, the next holding her up as a cop out for his shortcomings.

Honestly though, do you really believe it's relevant to BS, or TJ as to how they're perceived by a proportionally very, very small section of the readership, of a now finished series, which has made them mega-bucks?

I mean if the anonymous malcontents of internet fandom really sways your perception to the degree suggested, that you would look down upon an entire worldwide readership community, that has vested decades of interest in both reading, and purchasing WoT material - the vast majority of which do not participate in an online discussion forum, at all, than you've got more problems on your hands, or in your head rather, than a shoddily executed conclusion to an epic fantasy series.

[Plato]

If I'm not mistaken, there are enough Suttree, or Barid, or Mr Ares, or Rhienne posts floating around to give detail by detail differences between Brandon and RJ that are constructive and informative. 

[wotfan4472]

Yeah, in every bloody forum topic :P

[Mr Ares]

 

WoT didn't suffer because BS wrote other books - It suffered because BS maintained a slew of inadequacies across three books, in his ability as a writer, his (in)ability to personally apply himself to source material(notes for example), and a lack of scruples with regard to meeting a tremendous opportunity with absolute personal dedication & effort, taking full advantage of all resources and avenues available, to arrive at the best finished product possible.

 

Here we go again.  Thank you for again illustrating why Sanderson and TJ think so much less of the WoT community than it did before the last three books.

 

They think less of us because we have negative feelings about the series? Because we have, shock horror, decided to express our feelings? You've yet to provide evidence that they do think less of us, nor a good reason for us to accept that they would.

 

I'll concede a point when I'm wrong. But I choose to give battle on ground that favours me - I commit to a point because I have good reason to believe it is probably right, not because it is some passing fancy. Because I'm good at picking my fights (and good at fighting the fights I pick) I seldom end up being wrong. You can give up trying, or you can try and become a better debater.

And since you assign yourself as the sole arbiter of when you are "wrong," you never concede a point, as ShenAlCalhar correctly noted in the middle of winning the debate with you.

 

Except I do concede points, albeit rarely. Therefore if you fail to make me concede a point, blame cannot lie solely on me being too unwilling to ever change but must lie at least partially in the person I am arguing against, either in the point they make or how they are making it. And if you think ShenAlCalhar was ever even close to winning, please, present your argument.