A Song of Fire & Ice Book Discussion Thread (Up To Dance With Dragons)

Elend · April 14, 2011

hmmm see i see that differently than you guys do

first we have the fact that Jamie paid the chick to sleep with Tyrion in the first place. so technically she was already a concubine; this doesn't mean that she couldn't be raped, even hookers have the right to deny a John; it just proves that before the gang rape occured, she had aggreed to have sex with Tyrion for money. so with Tyrion atleast, there is a presedent set for Sex for Money.

then there are the events surrounding this issue, which is that Tyrion had perviously had consenual sex with the woman on numerous times and theres no reason to think that it would be any thing other than consenual this last time.

also, you have to take into account that he was forced to do it. can we really consider Tyrion the Rapist when he was forced himself, surrounded by his fathers gaurds with no means of escaping the situation. can he really be held accountable for that act, when he woudn't have done so on his own, feels ashamed of having been forced to do so, and took no joy in the act.

imo, this would be like hating a boy who was forced by an adult to have sex with a girl when neither the boy nor girl wanted to. in this case the Adult is blamed, not the two children; and no one had any sympathy for Tyrion's father and he did die a painful death.

I agree with your last point but...

The other points don't stand so well. For starters, Jaime did not pay Tysha anything. The scene was as it seemed- bandits waylaying a girl. And she married him, for reasons unknown, though I think Tywin has a point that his name helped a lot. I do think it was a happy marriage though, and she didn't detest him (at least at the time). Just re-read A Feast For Crows for Jaime's confession.

And consensual sex once, or even multiple times, doesn't make it some kind of free-for-all. A husband can still rape a wife, for instance. Or a wife a husband.

I don't think its a question on whether it was rape or not- its just who is at fault. And, for me at least, that is very clearly Tywin and not Tyrion. Tyrion had no means to resist and was little more than a child anyway. I'm not even sure if he was the legal 15 in Westeros at the time.

Red2111 · April 14, 2011

I dont have the books in front of me but. . . Edit: proof and link in spoiler

Doesnt Jaime make it clear that the girl was NOT a whore? I thought that this was one of the main reasons why Tyrion ends up killing Tywin when Tywin says she was just a whore. This is also a point in Jaimes developing character, his guilt at having lied to his brother for all these years. http://awoiaf.wester...yrion_Lannister

the girls profession wasn't being a whore, she was a Millers daughter if i remember correctly. but sex for pay makes you a whore; and yes Jamie paid the woman to pretend to be in destress, and to have sex with Tyrion. becuase Jamie felt that it was time for his brother to grow up and be a man (ie: have sex) and wanted it to mean something more than just a whore at a brothel.

Tyrion killed Tywin for alot of reasons. the guilt and treatment that Tywin treated Tyrion too, the fact that Tywin intended not to make Tyrion his heir even though Jamie wasnt eledgible, the treatement of tasha and Tyrions newest whore (i forget her name), and because he hated the man and wanted vengence. it was multiple things; but still the point of discussion is that you claim we are meant to sympathize or like a character who has committed rape; i ask again, can we really hold Tyrion at fault for what happened given the circumstances?

I agree with your last point but...

The other points don't stand so well. For starters, Jaime did not pay Tysha anything. The scene was as it seemed- bandits waylaying a girl. And she married him, for reasons unknown, though I think Tywin has a point that his name helped a lot. I do think it was a happy marriage though, and she didn't detest him (at least at the time). Just re-read A Feast For Crows for Jaime's confession.

And consensual sex once, or even multiple times, doesn't make it some kind of free-for-all. A husband can still rape a wife, for instance. Or a wife a husband.

I don't think its a question on whether it was rape or not- its just who is at fault. And, for me at least, that is very clearly Tywin and not Tyrion. Tyrion had no means to resist and was little more than a child anyway. I'm not even sure if he was the legal 15 in Westeros at the time.

Jamie confesses to Tyrion that he had paid the girl to sleep with him and fake that whole incident when Jamie frees Tyrion from the cellars. in in the first coulple of chapters of aFfC's. i'll have to go look it up again i suppose, as thats the way i remember it.

i do agree that a husband can rape a wife and vice versus; but theres nothign to indicate even after the gang rape she woudl have told Tyrion no because it was a true and loving marraige they had. we're likely to see a meeting between the two of them soon, as it seems that Tyrion is goign to set out to find her before traveling over the narrow sea; so we should find out then.

alligator · April 14, 2011

Random thought.

Am I the only one who, upon hearing that the fourth book was called 'A Feast for Crows', expected it to be about the men of the Night's Watch gaining political power in the aftermath of some craziness? They're constantly referred to as crows, and it seemed like such a perfect meaning for the title....

Red2111 · April 14, 2011

no i'd thought that too alligator; that the book woudl focus on the Wall, not the political gain stuff. that or there would be alot of death. both ended up being not true :laugh:

Basel Gill · April 14, 2011

Well, Amazon delivered my copy of AGOT today. It looks hefty, even in paperback. I still have about 100 pages left in Fires of Heaven before I can start SoIaF. After that, I'm planning on returning to the Enderverse and beginning the Bean stories for the first time.

Elend · April 15, 2011

I dont have the books in front of me but. . . Edit: proof and link in spoiler

Doesnt Jaime make it clear that the girl was NOT a whore? I thought that this was one of the main reasons why Tyrion ends up killing Tywin when Tywin says she was just a whore. This is also a point in Jaimes developing character, his guilt at having lied to his brother for all these years. http://awoiaf.wester...yrion_Lannister

the girls profession wasn't being a whore, she was a Millers daughter if i remember correctly. but sex for pay makes you a whore; and yes Jamie paid the woman to pretend to be in destress, and to have sex with Tyrion. becuase Jamie felt that it was time for his brother to grow up and be a man (ie: have sex) and wanted it to mean something more than just a whore at a brothel.

Tyrion killed Tywin for alot of reasons. the guilt and treatment that Tywin treated Tyrion too, the fact that Tywin intended not to make Tyrion his heir even though Jamie wasnt eledgible, the treatement of tasha and Tyrions newest whore (i forget her name), and because he hated the man and wanted vengence. it was multiple things; but still the point of discussion is that you claim we are meant to sympathize or like a character who has committed rape; i ask again, can we really hold Tyrion at fault for what happened given the circumstances?

I agree with your last point but...

The other points don't stand so well. For starters, Jaime did not pay Tysha anything. The scene was as it seemed- bandits waylaying a girl. And she married him, for reasons unknown, though I think Tywin has a point that his name helped a lot. I do think it was a happy marriage though, and she didn't detest him (at least at the time). Just re-read A Feast For Crows for Jaime's confession.

And consensual sex once, or even multiple times, doesn't make it some kind of free-for-all. A husband can still rape a wife, for instance. Or a wife a husband.

I don't think its a question on whether it was rape or not- its just who is at fault. And, for me at least, that is very clearly Tywin and not Tyrion. Tyrion had no means to resist and was little more than a child anyway. I'm not even sure if he was the legal 15 in Westeros at the time.

Jamie confesses to Tyrion that he had paid the girl to sleep with him and fake that whole incident when Jamie frees Tyrion from the cellars. in in the first coulple of chapters of aFfC's. i'll have to go look it up again i suppose, as thats the way i remember it.

i do agree that a husband can rape a wife and vice versus; but theres nothign to indicate even after the gang rape she woudl have told Tyrion no because it was a true and loving marraige they had. we're likely to see a meeting between the two of them soon, as it seems that Tyrion is goign to set out to find her before traveling over the narrow sea; so we should find out then.

I'm on a re-read prior to aDwD being released so I'll check then. Starting aSoS now, just that I don't recall it as described.

idiostock · April 15, 2011

I just started reading AGoT, I'm maybe 150 pages in.

Is the entire series political maneuvering and backstabbing? The prologue was promising, but I don't care about fantasy politics.

Elend · April 15, 2011

I just started reading AGoT, I'm maybe 150 pages in.

Is the entire series political maneuvering and backstabbing? The prologue was promising, but I don't care about fantasy politics.

Yes and no. Lots of political maneuvering but it climaxes into a massive war in the first book. The next two books are about the war and events within it, with politics still playing a role. The prologue is expanded upon- the Wall is a setting in the future, and the events that you saw are expanded upon.

Its very good, but it requires following an absurd number of characters and plot-lines. But the payoff is worth it.

idiostock · April 15, 2011

Thanks. I think I'll end up reading all of the first book, if I'm entranced I'll keep on keeping on, if not I always have HBO.

Red2111 · April 16, 2011

nope Elend your right. it's at the end of SoS, the story originall told to was a flase one made up and it was "a chance meeting that was what it seeme dto be"

political manuevering is a big part of the series *nods* as for still having HBO. you can be sure that there will be Rants posted here if HBO doesn;t keep semi tru to the series or even a discussion or two if they change things up to badly :happy:

hotpocket2006 · April 16, 2011

political manuevering is a big part of the series *nods* as for still having HBO. you can be sure that there will be Rants posted here if HBO doesn;t keep semi tru to the series or even a discussion or two if they change things up to badly

Agreed. Big time. I've got my brass knuckles ready just in case.

MierinWru · April 16, 2011

Eww, don't tell me we'll get a nerd rage similar to all the disgruntled Lord of the Rings fans who didn't realize that some things HAD to be changed cause some parts of books just don't work in movies.

Some people really need to learn how to relax.

hotpocket2006 · April 16, 2011

Yes major nerdy RAEG!!!!

MierinWru · April 16, 2011

Yes major nerdy RAEG!!!!

Is that the funny animal that lived in the lake in front of the gate to Moria in the LOTR movie? :cool:

Hallow · April 16, 2011

Eww, don't tell me we'll get a nerd rage similar to all the disgruntled Lord of the Rings fans who didn't realize that some things HAD to be changed cause some parts of books just don't work in movies.

Some people really need to learn how to relax.

Some things need to be change, for example shortening the story significantly for it to fit in a three movie format.

Some things should NOT be changed, for example Elves appearing in Helms Deep, The Witch King knocking Gandalf off his horse and Bright green men sweeping through Minas Tirith like cleaning fluid.

Some people need to learn the difference.

MierinWru · April 16, 2011

Eww, don't tell me we'll get a nerd rage similar to all the disgruntled Lord of the Rings fans who didn't realize that some things HAD to be changed cause some parts of books just don't work in movies.

Some people really need to learn how to relax.

Some things need to be change, for example shortening the story significantly for it to fit in a three movie format.

Some things should NOT be changed, for example Elves appearing in Helms Deep, The Witch King knocking Gandalf off his horse and Bright green men sweeping through Minas Tirith like cleaning fluid.

Some people need to learn the difference.

Make sure to direct your whining Peter Jackson's way or he'll ruin the Hobbit for you to.

Suttree · April 17, 2011

Jamie confesses to Tyrion that he had paid the girl to sleep with him and fake that whole incident when Jamie frees Tyrion from the cellars. in in the first coulple of chapters of aFfC's. i'll have to go look it up again i suppose, as thats the way i remember it.

i do agree that a husband can rape a wife and vice versus; but theres nothign to indicate even after the gang rape she woudl have told Tyrion no because it was a true and loving marraige they had. we're likely to see a meeting between the two of them soon, as it seems that Tyrion is goign to set out to find her before traveling over the narrow sea; so we should find out then.

You have this backwards, it was the exact opposite. Jaime lied about this to Tyrion because his father forced him to.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tysha

Edit: Sorry saw you caught this already...

Hallow · April 17, 2011

Eww, don't tell me we'll get a nerd rage similar to all the disgruntled Lord of the Rings fans who didn't realize that some things HAD to be changed cause some parts of books just don't work in movies.

Some people really need to learn how to relax.

Some things need to be change, for example shortening the story significantly for it to fit in a three movie format.

Some things should NOT be changed, for example Elves appearing in Helms Deep, The Witch King knocking Gandalf off his horse and Bright green men sweeping through Minas Tirith like cleaning fluid.

Some people need to learn the difference.

Make sure to direct your whining Peter Jackson's way or he'll ruin the Hobbit for you to.

Already did, many years ago. I wouldn't go so far as saying LOTR was ruined for me, it's still a fantastic work of film but I was definitely disappointed when some of the aforementioned things happened.

I usually don't go on about it anymore unless its brought up for me :p

Red2111 · April 18, 2011

lol NP Suttree :happy:

so did anyone catch the first episode last night?? just a little un-needed modness coming from me; please keep the spoilers down to a minimum, and if you must post them as far as whats to come in the series put it in the nifty spoiler tag found in the "other styles" box up in the top of your reply :sleep:

as it stands, i caught it and was actually very impressed. loved the added scene with Tyrion and the adult house in Winterfell; with Jamie all like "i figured you'd say that, comeon in girls!!" that was great. all the actors were wonderful, loved Roberts vengful/insane glare when talking about Danny & Viserys still being alive; and i'm already rooting for Viserys death having just met him on screen. i had reservations about this actor, with his whole attitude on trying to see Viserys froma sympathetic view; but with seeing 3 scenes with him acting like a total jerk those reservations are gone.

the opnly part i had a disagreement with is the wedding night scene between Danny & Drogo. they made him out to be a vicious savage when in reality he was actually really gentle with her and didn't force himself on her. the wedding itself was fantastic though and pegged the Duthraki's to a tea!! all in all, i have extremely high hopes for this and it makes me have equally high hopes if HBO or Showtime ever takes on the WoT as a mini series!!

Eww, don't tell me we'll get a nerd rage similar to all the disgruntled Lord of the Rings fans who didn't realize that some things HAD to be changed cause some parts of books just don't work in movies.

Some people really need to learn how to relax.

hehe. i promise not to be as bad with this series as i am with HP and those utterly down right distasteful things they call movies. don't get me started on HBP!!! :laugh:

Gentled Ben · April 18, 2011

I hate it when people do this, but now, I am doing it myself. I did not read this whole thread, just the first few posts and the most recent one. It's nice to see Karana, btw. I'll answer a few of her initial questions:

Others--no clue

Prince who was Promised--I believe it is Jon Snow, whom I also believe to be the offspring of Rhaegar and Lyanna

R'hllor--Yeah, I think he's getting stronger, and he will end up in a confrontation, perhaps through minions, with the god of the Others, whom I assume is the same god that the Faceless Men worship, the god of death.

Favorite character: Arya! I love her independence and pragmatism, and I feel such sympathy for her after the hard road she's been down. I also feel a strange attraction to the way she seems to be something of a sociopath. She kills without pity or remorse, and sometimes, without passion. I dont' know why I like that, but I do. I hope she does not become a complete mosnter, but I want so very badly to see her exact vengeance for her family. Go kill some Freys, Lannisters, Greyjoys, and Boltons, kid. Go kill them cruelly.

Despise: Cersei. What a well-written villain--so easy to loathe.

First episode: YAY! The kids are way too old, but overall, I am excited! Ned is perfect. I agree that the marriage consummation was botched, but it lent some sympathy to Dany's character, which is lacking without being able to see what she is thinking and feeling. Maybe he'll be redeemed in future episodes. I liked Viserys, and even though Cersei does not look the way I pictured her, I think she will be magnificent in the role. Overall, i am really excited and impressed. I can't wait to see the rest of the series!

MierinWru · April 19, 2011

First episode: YAY! The kids are way too old, but overall, I am excited!

In fact I think the kids in the books are way too young.

I suspect that even GRR Martin regrets that because most of the kids can't really turn into adults by the end of the series which means he can't use them to their full potential. I think there's a reason why for a while he was toying with the idea of having 5 years pass between 2 books to let the kids grow up first. But I guess he then realized that he can't do it cause Westeros wouldn't just stand still and let them grow up.

ryanphlp2002 · April 19, 2011

First episode: YAY! The kids are way too old, but overall, I am excited!

In fact I think the kids in the books are way too young.

I suspect that even GRR Martin regrets that because most of the kids can't really turn into adults by the end of the series which means he can't use them to their full potential. I think there's a reason why for a while he was toying with the idea of having 5 years pass between 2 books to let the kids grow up first. But I guess he then realized that he can't do it cause Westeros wouldn't just stand still and let them grow up.

I'm pretty sure George said this himself somewhere, now finish the book George!

Shard · April 20, 2011

I have a question about the Targaryen's and just how good/evil they are. I know this series just about every character has shades of grey and Jaime Lannister seems to be the Snape of this series. (I use Snape because I don't want to have to type "The dude that's sorta evil but not really" over and over again).

Anyways one of the more confounding and greyer characters is the house of Targaryen. What I am struggling with is in part with the whole theory on who Jon Snow's parents are. If Eddard's sister wanted to be with Rheagar, then why was there a need for Eddard to have to kill the guards who held her at the tower? but it confuses me why Eddard went to war with the Targaryen if Rheagar wasn't that bad. I get why the Lannisters and Robert Barthenon did.

I have read all four books and it has been awhile since I have read themI think I really need to re-read this series again.

Suttree · April 20, 2011

I have a question about the Targaryen's and just how good/evil they are. I know this series just about every character has shades of grey and Jaime Lannister seems to be the Snape of this series. (I use Snape because I don't want to have to type "The dude that's sorta evil but not really" over and over again).

Anyways one of the more confounding and greyer characters is the house of Targaryen. What I am struggling with is in part with the whole theory on who Jon Snow's parents are. If Eddard's sister wanted to be with Rheagar, then why was there a need for Eddard to have to kill the guards who held her at the tower? but it confuses me why Eddard went to war with the Targaryen if Rheagar wasn't that bad. I get why the Lannisters and Robert Barthenon did.

I have read all four books and it has been awhile since I have read themI think I really need to re-read this series again.

Because the Mad King Aerys killed Brandon Stark after he rode to Kings Landing trying to find his sister, then ordered John Arryn to give him the heads of Eddard and Robert. Arryn refused and the rebellion started. Rhaegar was the Prince of Dragonstone.

Red2111 · April 20, 2011

not only that but

it's also stated in the books that Eddards sister was taken agaisnt her will in the series. at least thats the goign rumor. what might have relaly happened likely died with Eddard, Eddard's sister & Rhaegar (if Rhaegar is infact dead which some believe he isnt)

A Song of Fire & Ice Book Discussion Thread (Up To Dance With Dragons)

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