November 7th, 1606: Day 4 (CONCLUDED)

[WWWwombat]

Deadline in about 12 hours

[Niniel]

To be fair, I haven't actually voted him yet. I am kind of sitting around waiting for more perspective.

Which could be construed as fencesitting I guess if you want to be suspicious and cynical but I'd rather look suspicious than jump the gun.

And I do have my theory that pointed to Peace, Player, and Pralaya. I'm still not sure how solid that is though or if maybe I'm crazy for focusing on them.

What do you think? Did you see my post about it? I don't recall if you commented on it or not...

 

I agree with you about Peace. I don´t think he is mafia. 

[Niniel]

12 hours... How come we have only one train so far?

[dapianoplay3r]

I'm off to bed (sorry but long day)

Uni in 7 hours though so ill be around at the deadline if desperately needed

[lolguy26]

I could vote peace to avoid a random but I'd rather not, ill be here till the deadline if needed

 

I prefer we lynch hal or krak if he doesn't explain his weird vote

[Verbal32]

I still don´t think Peace is mafia. The case sounds all backwards. First, I don´t think mafia wanted to kill Cloud that early. As someone said, it would be better to wait until you have a doc/cop claim. So I doubt Peace killed Leelou and went after his own mafia buddy right away just to get town cred. Wouldn´t it be better to save Leelou and connect her again with Cloud when he was lynched? 

 

After Bg made that case a lot of people just choose to sheep. And I do think Mish´s vote is strange since she defended Peace before. Okay, if she wanted to avoid a random with voting someone she thinks is town, that might be a good reason. But now she has gone from definitely not mafia to have to vote him to avoid a random lynch to voting him for being mafia. Big FOS!

 

I don't think peace is mafia, either.

 

I think Krak is, but I didn't have a chance to case him this weekend....super busy.

 

I'm going to do some reading on him this morning.

[bgrishinko]

I'd be willing to switch to Chuckles or Krak if needed. Chuckles for his scummy vote on Hallia and Krak based on cross thread meta. I still think Peace is our best bet though.

[Verbal32]

Just re-read Krak's 20 posts.

 

Only 2 things really struck me:

 

1.  He says he is sure serra is mafia (hasn't mentioned it since early game), and

 

2.  He had almost half of his game posts in responses to me throughout the game.  And linked me to Yates' lynch in that a town Yates must mean a scum Verbal.

 

 

I was ready to case him hard today re: the #2 above, but I'd like to revisit #1.  Especially due to this post:

 

 

Lynch Nolder, Verb, Peace - in that order.  The last scum is in BG/Serra.

 

That is all.

 

I then re-read Yates in a new light, and I agree with the last 2 (BG/Serra).....but that means I also agree with Krak's early game case on serra.  This is why I'm hesitant on Krak.

 

@Krak:  can you re-state why you were sure serra was scum in this thread but haven't kept pressing?

[serra]

Right, we're at 7 hours to DL, so should probably sort something.

 

Nolder's explanation that he offed Yates to save himself is ridiculous, but I don't think he would admit to that as scum.

 

BG's case on peace makes sense, particularly the cloud interaction.

 

chuckles voting Hallia to get her to post, and immediately admitting it, is pretty bad. Seems he's backpedalling after his first reason is attacked. I like Lenlo's vote.

 

not sure what to think of dap apparently messing up the thread, but Krak's vote just seems terribly opportunistic.

 

Although chuckles and Krak are as bad, at this point I think peace is our best bet.

 

VOTE: Peace

[Krakalakachkn]

I believe you are referring to my post here:

 

 

 

A series of events concerning Csarmi.

 

 

Claim Thread 1: Samhain

 

Anyway, I'll be back in an hour or two.

I'm Selma Ross, Vanilla Town in this game.

 

Claim Thread 2: November 1st, 1603

 

 

Full claim:

Marian Rose, a wise woman who's always prepared. Town with a BPV (Vest+Helmet), good vs 1 NK.

 

 

Claim Thread 3: October 31, 2000

 

 

Full claim: Chandler Rose, I'm uninspired (in other words, I suck) - vanilla town

 

 

csarmi claims one power role and two vanillas.  The BPV is a solid town role and one that the scum would definitely want to get rid of.  Let's see what happens following his claim on thread 2...

 

 

I've seen nothing to cast doubt on the fact that Salami is scum in at least 1 thread, and I think this thread will give us the best chance.

VOTE: Csarmi

 

 

At this time of posting (Today at 10:50AM), there were 9 votes on csarmi in this thread (2).

 

However, according to Leelou's unofficial vc in thread 1, which Darthe confirms on the next page:

 

 

UNOFFICIAL VOTE COUNT 3: 

Salami (10/12): Leelou, Cloud, Nol, Yates, Verb, Ishy, Razen , BG, Dap, Krak

Chuckles(1/12): Salami

 

Verbal (1/12): Crush

 

Not Voting (11/23): 
Chuckles, Mish, Hally, Lenlo, Des, Peace, Tiink, Tina, Ree, Pral, Serra

 

 

There are 10 votes on csarmi.  Thread 3 had 8 votes, so that one was true, but I'm curious as to why Serra chose thread 2, the one csarmi claimed BPV in, I'm curious as to why his justification was untrue regarding thread 1.  csarmi even asks as much:

 

 

 

Thanks Leelou, you're a darling! (I usually leave an updated vote count in the opening post *hint, hint*)
 
I've seen nothing to cast doubt on the fact that Salami is scum in at least 1 thread, and I think this thread will give us the best chance.
 
VOTE: Csarmi

Why is it the best thread btw?

 

He is hammered before Serra replies.

 

 

 

And Serra's reply:

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Leelou, you're a darling! (I usually leave an updated vote count in the opening post *hint, hint*)
 
I've seen nothing to cast doubt on the fact that Salami is scum in at least 1 thread, and I think this thread will give us the best chance.
 
VOTE: Csarmi

Sure, just make sure you realize that I'm roled up in this thread. It's not a very useful role, but better than nothing.

Why is it the best thread btw?

 

I unfortunately didn't get around to answering this before the lynch, so this is a bit of a moot point now, but my reasoning can basically be summarised in these points:

 

 

Yates' opening is less forced here than in thread 1. From that alone I'd be leaning town here.

 

This is where Csarmi starts with his "trap" spiel. None of his RVS-y posts have the same confidence as in 1, and I'm pretty sure the trap thing was backpedaling while trying to save face. Covering it up with humour by deliberately misunderstanding Nolder's is a pretty obvious deflection.

 

If Nol is scum in exactly 1 of his threads, it isn't this one. Unless he's scum in 2 or more threads (which I don't really think is very likely), I have  a pretty good townread on him here.

 

Leelou (and Ish, if that vote was serious): what was it about cloud that made you suspicious early on?

 

Yates is actually engaging with the game here,

 

Csarmi's line about scum needing fancy plays, when he claims to have set a trap is hilariously bad. In thread 1, his further posts were at least somewhat reasoned, whereas here he seems less confident, and is ironically getting himself caught in his own web of lies.

 

Discussing between Yates and chuckles is town for both.

 

The point by dap about cloud's voting is actually good. Dap can be town here and I very much buy into the cloud/csarmi theory. I have a question though, dap: if you agree that Csarmi is likely scum in this thread, why would you take issue with me wanting to lynch him here rather than in 1? Sure, he MIGHT be scum in both, but I'd think if we've established he's likely scum here, the chance of him being scum in the other threads goes down?

 

I don't really like peace here. His quotewall is pretty opportunistic. Trying to draw a connection between Leelou and cloud because Leelou voted him is pretty weak. "Early distancing" is a pretty overused buzzword, to be honest. He points fingers at the unreasoned cloud votes, while not doing the same with the Csarmi votes is off.

 

Csarmi pretends all of his posts have been global (to make it difficult to pin down where he is scum!), but that's clearly not true. He responds to accusations on a thread-by-thread basis (more or less) and those responses have been the most scummy here.

 

Nolder: why are you not a fan of the staggered lynch? Surely Csarmi's play has simply been indicative of the fact that he's scum in 1 of the threads. If we lynch him somewhere and he flips scum, I think we'd be better off looking elsewhere for the other lynches. If he flips town, we keep going until we find his scum-thread.

 

 

 

Desp's hammer is a bit dodgy, but not quite as bad as some people have been saying. Particularly with these deadlines, initiative is a good thing. I do like Desp's catchup post though, although he could perhaps have been more concrete about some of his reads.

 

 

If my post didn't make it clear...Serra is scum in this thread.

 

 

*at least in this thread

 

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not scum in this or any of the other threads. Csarmi was at 9 votes when I voted him to put him at L-2, that's true. It's also true that he was at 10 votes in thread 1, but I've said (over and over) that I think he's town in thread 1. I had already explained why I thought this was his scum-thread in my earlier post (which I quoted here). With more than 2 days left until the deadline, you can hardly think I would anticipate him being hammered before I'd have the chance to respond to him. I simply wasn't around between my L-2 vote and the lynch, and I really don't see how you're twisting that to mean I must be scum.

 

 

 

 

 

As for the reason I never kept at him, it's for two reasons.

 

1) I put my thoughts out there and nobody picked them up.  Nobody really responded to my other feelers, so I figured I'd made a bad argument or made a point so obvious that everyone rolled their eyes and moved on.

2) I had a few days of inattention to these games and got way behind.  I wish this weren't a reason, but I got busy, then lazy.

 

 

As to the DAP vote.  His play has been way off this whole game.  It's not even so much that he glossed over Razen's claim as it is his general play.  The Player I know always has time to do a thorough case, even in the midst of final exams.  I was hoping that he might say something about it, but instead guess who picked it up immediately....lolguy.  BG too, which is a common theme I keep noticing across threads.

 

 

I'm not averse to a Serra lynch though, especially not with the game so lopsided so far.  I still think my argument against his hammer has a lot of merit, but I've yet to hear anybody else say if they think it's valid (besides Yates, briefly).  It was quickly turned into an argument on WIFOM and had Des flipped scum, I would have immediately been at Serra's throat.

 

[Verbal32]

Ok.

 

I'm not really wanting to lynch you anymore - not right now.  Had a town read....went to heavy scum....and has now evened itself out.

 

BG was one that was in the back of my mind.  He assisted on the Yates lynch, and has kinda been in my corner cheering me on for a while now.  I feel like I've been buddied up with.

 

I don't feel like peace is a good lynch right now, and I feel like scum are piling onto the opportunistic nature of it.

[bgrishinko]

 I was just cheering you on during the Yates lynch as I believed quite strongly with you that he was scum.

[Verbal32]

Eh, you've been cheerleading me on more than that, but I can't look back right now.  I just wanted the thoughts on thread.

[bgrishinko]

Eh, you've been cheerleading me on more than that, but I can't look back right now.  I just wanted the thoughts on thread.

 

Well, when you get a chance examples would be nice rather than just accusations of buddying. FWIW, I don't have any particular feelings you are scum. I did find it weird the way you jumped all over Dap for his casing mistakes rather than just questioning him on it.

 

Also, I know you are dead in T1 so maybe you aren't following it, but don't you find it odd that Krak is actively participating and answering your questions in this thread when he only had 3 posts total in T1 and flipped town? 

[Verbal32]

 

Eh, you've been cheerleading me on more than that, but I can't look back right now.  I just wanted the thoughts on thread.

 

Well, when you get a chance examples would be nice rather than just accusations of buddying. FWIW, I don't have any particular feelings you are scum. I did find it weird the way you jumped all over Dap for his casing mistakes rather than just questioning him on it.

 

Also, I know you are dead in T1 so maybe you aren't following it, but don't you find it odd that Krak is actively participating and answering your questions in this thread when he only had 3 posts total in T1 and flipped town? 

 

 

Italics:  I'll look for examples.  While we are on that train of thought, can you provide examples of how I "jumped all over Dap" for casing mistakes?

 

Underline:  That is a small piece to why I wanted to case Krak - maybe he's more active in his scum thread.  If that is the case, I'd be scum for sure!

[bgrishinko]

@Dap:  what the hell are you talking about?  Yates flipped TOWN in this thread, not symp.  You reference needing to check T2 - this is T2, silly.

This far into the game, this makes me suspicious.

 

Dap is playing a clean game.  Too clean.

Actually.... you know what, all of his quotes are from T3. So it still stands just for the wrong game. Seems like he just posted in the wrong spot.

 

Dap. Move it over to T3.

 

Maybe you are right Verb that he's been playing too clean here, but I'm going to have to say it was a bit suspicious of you for jumping all over Dap without checking to see if his case was in the correct thread.

 

 

All right, so you don't jump all over him as much as thought I remembered, but this is what I was talking about. The first quote is fine and makes sense, but the second is what I remembered. What you say is basically the equivalent of a FoS since you say it suspicious this far in, like what he did was intentional.   

[Niniel]

Peace is at L-1. I don´t think he has claimed a role. 

[Verbal32]

 

@Dap:  what the hell are you talking about?  Yates flipped TOWN in this thread, not symp.  You reference needing to check T2 - this is T2, silly.

This far into the game, this makes me suspicious.

 

Dap is playing a clean game.  Too clean.

Actually.... you know what, all of his quotes are from T3. So it still stands just for the wrong game. Seems like he just posted in the wrong spot.

 

Dap. Move it over to T3.

 

Maybe you are right Verb that he's been playing too clean here, but I'm going to have to say it was a bit suspicious of you for jumping all over Dap without checking to see if his case was in the correct thread.

 

 

All right, so you don't jump all over him as much as thought I remembered, but this is what I was talking about. The first quote is fine and makes sense, but the second is what I remembered. What you say is basically the equivalent of a FoS since you say it suspicious this far in, like what he did was intentional.   

 

 

Ok, fine.  But putting out a FOS is not the same as jumping all over him.  That FOS still exists - squeaky clean players in midgame are likely scum.

[Verbal32]

Peace is at L-1. I don´t think he has claimed a role. 

 

Then somebody needs to unvote to allow him time.  No ninja hammers.

[bgrishinko]

Also less than 4 hours left till deadline which puts us in a pickle because no matter what he claims,  it gives us very little time to respond. 

[Verbal32]

Ugh.

[bgrishinko]

This may be the last response we get from Peace which he made after I made my case:

 

Yes BG..i was making a statement about Hallia propensity in all three threads to swoop in and sheep vote without any real game play.

 

Good case and I can see some of that perspective when it comes to cloud.  But remember that was early day one and no one but scum would have solid reads.  I was prodding and poking and stating my thoughts at that time of the game. 

 

 

Anyway, I'll be back on Monday...going fishing in a couple hours.

 

1st bolded. This is the same reason I find chuckles scummy. He voted Hallia because of a cross thread meta irregardless of alignment but doesn't say so. Though I kind of give him a pass on it because he only did it for a second so it seems like he was making a point rather than placing a serious vote like Chuckles has. Then he tells me I made a good case, oddly enough, but advises me to look at things in perspective of day 1 saying there was no solid reads, but its kind of bull because my point wasn't that he FoS'd towns people, its because he didn't bother placing a vote on them and all of the reads he had were based on them being connected to Cloud as obvious mafia. But he doesn't even vote Cloud. Anyway, then says he'll be back Monday.

 

I guess that makes sense about Hallia sweeping in. Didn't notice it in the other threads cause I was just re-reading this one.

 

So, why didn't you vote anything on day 1 then? Niether Leelou, Cloud, or Ishy?

Also, if you aren't going to be back till Monday you probably won't be back before deadline... or maybe just before. I'm unsure since the deadlines haven't been as strict lately and there isn't a deadline post yet for this thread.

 

Anything you want to add before you go?

 

I figured this timing thing would happen so I prodded him to get anything he wanted to say out now in case he wouldn't make it back in time.

 

I have a couple quick thoughts.  Verbal is a bit touchy feely kinda like the Nolder game where he was scum.  I picked up on that early that game and they killed me for it.  He may be pulling a reverse to fix his meta but seems scummy in his delivery.

 

Also, getting major scum gut feeling from Serra...but had that in the other thread too.  Could be some OMGUS cause he basically picked 2 threads early on to mention me as scum in about every big post.  Don't know if this a meta establishment over two threads or not.  One being town, one being scum.  I can see risking a town thread to establish a scum thread...if that makes sense.

 

Back to packing.

 

That's pretty much the last of his important thoughts. And he still didn't respond to my question about why he didn't vote for his scummy reads on day 1.

 

So now we are here near deadline. Waiting.

[michellem]

He didn't claim the last time he was run up, and he saw before he left now that it was a good chance for him being run up and yet he didn't claim, so... Either he's vanilla or he's mafia.

 

Now can we please not have a random?

[Krakalakachkn]

I'm around

[lolguy26]

we have about an hour and a half, i dont think peace will post anything, within that time and even if he claims anything, we really dont have anytime to lynch anybody else

 

so Intent to hammer in half an hour if peace doesnt post anything