August 9, 2013: CONCLUDED

[hazelkrs1]

Once again, worst case scenario is we lose two townies and go to night with two town and 1 scum. It then comes to who can outwifom the other on the NK.

 

But yeah, BG, you misplayed the bomb. Instead of coming out and saying you were vanilla and lied about being a RB'er, you could have come out and said you were a bomb looking to draw a NK, which would have made sense. Lying right at the end of the game only increases the chance of a mislynch if you're town, if it is exposed that you were lying. You would have also been someone the mafia couldn't NK and someone Rorschach wouldn't have had to worry about when choosing who to Drive.

[Darthe]

Scene in a bit. Waiting on Wombat and getting my morning together :) Y'all relax and I will post things later on today.

[bgrishinko]

Anyway, I'll shut up now and we'll see how it all plays.

[Darthe]

Redshirt #3, known not for his name or particularly for his talents yet still quite popular. Survivable if you will. He always carried around certain items of note, ever ready to spite any who went against him, protective of himself in the mists especially.

 

Day would be his downfall. When 3 wales into the group meeting that day, their numbers almost intimately small by then, he was greeted not with smiles or even frowns, but death.

 

BGrishinko aka Redshirt #3, town Bomb has been lynched!

 

It is now Night. You have 24 hours. Less would be preferable.

[bgrishinko]

KEEEEERSPLOOOOOSH!

[Verbal32]

 

Hallia or Tina tomorrow. Des and BG are tier 2.

Def down to Verb and BG today, but Vote Verb for this post. Tina and I should both have looked obv town by now. Looks like an extremely weak attempt to sow seeds for lynches on either of us.

 

Plus his weird "I thought that's who you might say" in response to Chuckles saying he viewed me

 

Plus the whole mock outrage about inactivity the day he tried preventing Serra from getting lynched ("Even if Serra turns out to be scum and wins this game, I'll be okay with it as long as we lynch inactives!"), and the "tip of my hat to you (scumbuddy) Serra"

 

Plus over defensiveness for me saying I was still unsure of him after Chuckles revealed the town reading on him.

 

 

Awful vote.  You are either scum or your town game is completely falling off the rails.  No doubt.  You based your initial vote on me on me ONLY being GF.  Gross.  Looks like I'm probably right on my reads.  I had Tina and Hallia and my tier 1.  Oh look, Hallia was scum.  Tina is playing weird right now, and against every scrap of logical town meta on her.

 

I had you and BG as tier 2.  BG is town, so that makes you or Tina.  I'd go with Tina first....what do you think about that for tomorrow?

 

 

 

For a sec I thought you might have gotten the numbers wrong Rorschach, but naw, I think you're right actually.

 

5 left: At LEAST 1 other dude responsible for other NK's, almost def a SK since Leelou died as the Vig much earlier, and likely one more mafia left. Then a Doc and Rorschach as the Town Bus Driver. This means he's right, it's really only possible for there to be one vanilla left. Since I know I'm Vanilla, I shall Unvote, Vote BG since he is a LLL and tried fooling me out of voting him after claiming RB'er then switching it up lol.

 

Hrmmmm one weird thing tho: Verbal was viewed as town. Don't think he'd be third party that would view as town, so that would leave him as either the GF, and last remaining scum, or as the Doc most likely. He could be GF, and BG be a SK, that's possible, but I dunno, this makes me feel like I should have been more distrustful of Tina for a while...

 

Anyways, there doesn't seem to be a scenario where BG is town now. So he must die. His death should tell us the last remaining scum as well (he flips as mafia, then Tina is likely the SK, he flips as SK then I think Verbal would be GF scum)

 

So you think Tina should be tomorrow's lynch?  I want you on record.

 

 

 

Well, at least Hallia died tonight. Well done, Pralaya. To me it is between BG and Verbal. I can agree with Des about both of them. And as it seems like we have one sk and one mafia left it doesn´t matter which one of them I will vote. 

 

Vote BG

 

Sounds like scum trying to get alignment with somebody who would be likely to push my lynch.  This is becoming obvious.

 

C'mon town, let's clean this up tomorrow.

 

Tier 1:  Tina

 

Tier 2:  Des

 

No other option.

[hazelkrs1]

You're flailing Verbal. And you're getting lynched tomorrow.

[Verbal32]

Hardly. Flailing usually implies being on defense. I'm not the one making excuses. You and Tina are. One is scum and the other is spiraling townie.

 

What's your impression of a Tina lynch?

[hazelkrs1]

Not as high as your lynch. You tried pretty hard to save Serra dude. And you HAVE been on the defensive, hence the flailing.

 

I felt town on Tina before, but her speedhammer does give me cause for concern.

 

Either way your attempt to discredit anyone other than yourself or someone practically accepted as vongirmeed town is pretty telling imo. And you keep trying to act like the ONLY reason I'm suspicious of you is that you could be the GF, and that's just hogwash. I was suspicious of you before, suspicious of you after my reread, and suspicious of your play towards endgame. The GF thing came up because its a common mafia role and could help explain why you viewed as town even tho you're uberscummy.

 

You also used one of the oldest scumtells in the book, trying to AtE by saying were either scum or stupid townie. Case on you is substantial bro.

[hazelkrs1]

Got some free time, gonna go through and case both Verb and Tina. Not gonna go through the entire thread however, prob gonna stick to the last few days, and VC's for the whole game.

[hazelkrs1]

Dammit Darthe hasn't updated the post that has the vote counts in quite a while. Gonna have to grab the rest I guess.

[hazelkrs1]

Hey Darthe, when you get a chance... awh screw it nvm. Tomorrow's MyLo anyways. Anyhoo you got a few things wrong about the player's list in this thread, alignments are right (except BG's hasn't been updated yet), but the days they died or got lynched are a bit mixed up I think.

 

Anyways, here are the vote counts for almost all of the days:

 

 

FINAL VOTE COUNT:

Salami (12/12): Nol, Yates, Verb, Leelou, Razen, Cloud, Peace, Dap, Des, Serra, Tina, Lenlo
Hally (1/12): Krak
Yates (1/12): Crush

Leelou (1/12): Ree

Chuckles (2/12): Tiink, Salami

Not Voting (7/23): 
Chuckles, Mish, Hally, Ishy, Laya, BG

 

(Tina was initially listed as not voting as well as voting for Csarlami, but I remember her voting so I removed her name from the not voting pile)

 

Day 2 Final Vote Count 

Peace (10/10): Hally, Len, BG, Dap, Tina, Cloud, Serra, Tiink, Des, Pralaya
Ishy (1/10):Verb
Chuckles (2/10): Razen, Nol
Serra (1/10): Peace

Not Voting (5/19):
Chuckles, Krak, Ree, Ishy, Yates

 

 

 

Day 3 Final Vote Count:

 

Cloud (9/9): Nol, Krak, Razen, Hally, Serra, Chuckles, BG, Tina, Lenlo

Serra (1/9): Ishy

Ishy (1/9): Rorschache

Ree (2/9): Verb, Des

Chuckles (1/9): Cloud

 

Not Voting (3/17):

Dap, Tink, Ree

 

 

Final Vote Count:
Serra (4/8): , Krak, Tiink, Pralaya, Ishy
Tink (8/8): Verb, Chuckles, Hally, Serra, Des, Len, Tina, BG
　
Not Voting (2/14):
Nol, Razen,

 

(deleted unnecessary non-vote related content)

 

Final Vote Count

 

Serra (6/6): BG, Pralaya, Des, Tina, Len, Hally

 

Not Voting (4/10):
Verb, Chuckles, Krak, Serra

 

 

 

Official Vote Count:

Len (5/5): Des, BG, Pralaya, Tina, Verb

Hally (1/5): Chuckles

Not Voting(2/8):
Hally, Len

 

Scene incoming

 

 

There also wasn't a final vote count, or really any vote count for that matter (except the initial one with no one voting) for BG's lynch, but here's the votes and the order:

 

 

Unofficial Day 7 Final Vote Count:

 

BG: Rorschach (Pralaya), Des, Tina

 

Not voting: BG, Verbal (2)

 

 

---

 

Tina: Was on literally every lynch, which is kinda scummy to begin with. Looks like she wanted to go with the flow no matter what. I remember her voting on CSarlami towards the end of the lynch, and did so "reluctantly". Another thing I noticed was that her votes coincide with Lenlo's a GOOD bit. While Lenlo was alive, there were only TWO lynches where their votes weren't side by side, and one of them was on Lenlo's lynch. The other 4 they're side by side. This isn't exactly powerfully incriminating, since some people are sometimes on at the same time a lot, but Lenlo lives in Texas and Tina... well somewhere in Europe lol. Anyways, for those keeping tally at home:

 

Voted for a townie lynch: 5 times

Voted for a scum lynch: 2 times (one of them Serra, who after outing himself became instantly extremely bussable)

 

 

Verbal: Had a couple of outlier votes Day 2 and 3 (on Ishy and Mr. Ree respectively). Had a great chance to use his meta for speedlynching from JN to vote CSarlami early. Didn't vote for Serra after he revealed, I'll have to check back to see if he posted that day or just missed the chance to vote or something. Agreed with my case on Lenlo a good bit before he was lynched, and also hammered him. Could have been distancing, but it's there. Huge think against him however is the fact that he led the lynch on Tiink when Serra was the countertrain, and seemed to be trying fairly hard to protect Serra while also hedging his bets (like when he said "even if Serra is scum, I'd rather lose to him being active than win with inactive townies that make DM lame blah blah blah" never seen him go all emo on inactivity to that degree before. Seemed staged.

 

Voted for a townie lynch: 2 times

Voted for a scum lynch: 1 time

Didn't vote/voted for outlier: 4 times

 

At first glance Tina's voting record might look scummier, since she seemed eager to be on any lynch at all, but it also looks like Verbal has been a lot more careful about who he voted for this game, until it came close to endgame. Strikes me as someone trying to be careful how he looks.

 

---

[hazelkrs1]

Okay one huge caveat before I do all the extra casework here: Chuckles viewing on Verbal. And well also, the other stuff that needs to be taken into account here is the multiple killing elements, as well as the fact that we've seen 6 scum flip already. We've already seen the Vig flip, and any other killing roles are either extremely uncommon on DM or wouldn't have been able to shoot every night (3 killed N1, 1 killed N2, 1 NK'ed N3, 2 NK'ed N4, 1 NK'ed N5, 2 NK'ed N6)

 

So one way of looking at it is to say that 7 scum, plus a potential SK third party (8 total antitown elements) is a bit much for a 23 player game (would be more than 1/3 ratio, extremely high considering, and the town roles I've seen haven't been completely wtfbbq overpowered). In other words, we may have already seen the last of the mafia team killed. Hallia could have been the last one, and either tried to kill Rorschach and had the kill redirected to herself, or shot Chuckles and the SK kill was redirected to her. The point is, the only way that seems plausible for Verbal to have been viewed as town and still be scum is if he was the GF. I've seen some mods give the SK a one time "view as town" ability, but in general that seems to make most SK's too powerful, and in this game I don't see that setup. So I don't see Verb being a SK that somehow viewed as town. In this scenario, he could be the GF and Tina the SK, but then where's the Doc? Peace flipped as the Doc in T1, so assuming that all 3 threads are the same setup, then one of them has to be the Doc (it aint me). So basically, in this scenario really Tina HAS to be the SK.

 

Another way of looking at it is that it might be presumptuous to assume a SK, and maybe it's that the mafia team has some ability which gives it extra kills. Something that doesn't quite add up however, is that if the mafia team had 7 original members, then after 5 mislynches to start the game, and only one scum death (Yates), they would have had 6 left to 7 town. In that case, the game would be in the bag with a NK, so why would Nol volunteer to get replaced/modkilled? Why at endgame?

 

So yeah, gonna still do the due diligence and review the past 15 pages or so after audit, but this little tidbit is def leading me to believe Tina is in fact the SK, and the only scum left. Also explains why she'd be on EVERY lynch, looking to thin out the player field as quickly as possible.

[hazelkrs1]

You know what? I was about to start going through the last few days, but something occured to me. We haven't seen a Vengeful Killer flip in this thread either. Essentially, either the threads AREN'T all the same setup, or something fishy is going on here. We got 4 people left, but still haven't seen a Doc flip, a SK flip (something has to explain the multiple killings, and Vig already died earlier), a GF flip, and Rorschach seems to be the Bus Driver and I know I'm vanilla. So we have too many roles on the table and not enough people to fill them.

 

Actually now thinking it's possible that Tina is the Vengeful Killer perhaps, and Verbal is a SK with a one time "view as town" ability. Either that or the setups aren't the same.

 

I dunno. Just more food for thought for myself before I start compiling evidence. Speaking of food, just had an absolutely delicious monte christo sammich. Was like tasting a little piece of heaven.

[hazelkrs1]

No, then they can't be the same setup. I'm vanilla, and I believe Rorschach is Bus Driver. So between Tina and Verb we'd have to somehow fit an SK, Vengeful Killer, AND the Doc for the games to be the same setup. Since that's impossible, then it can be safely deduced that the setups are at least somewhat dissimilar, which means any argument which relies on the notion that the setups are the same has to be thrown out the window.

[Pralaya]

The set ups are definitely not the same. This thread seems to have more of Traitors and a bomb, maybe to do with the story - of London bombings. There could be a JOAT instead of doc, not sure.

[Niniel]

I think it´s funny that you make that kind of vc analyzis, Des. Especially since you were on all of the same trains as me except for day 3. You are either sk or mafia and Verb is the other. If I´m alive tomorrow, I will go back and re-read. You really fooled me, I was sure of you being town. 

[hazelkrs1]

Attention: Both Tina and Verbal are def scum. I forgot about Chuckles saying he was RB'ed. Since BG turned out not to be a RB'er, we know that the mafia RB'er is still at large. As is the SK, since there were two deaths as recent as N6.

 

So with the SK and RB'er still at large, and me vanilla and Rorschach the Bus Driver, this means Tina and Verbal are both scum. This makes sense as well, cause in my reread I actually found a good bit of evidence on both being scummy.

 

One thing I can't figure out is how Chuckles got the town reading on Verbal, but I suppose it could be my earlier idea that the SK could have had a one time "view as town" type thing or something.

 

Either way, this is going to come down to who each decides to kill, and whether or not Rorschach hopefully didn't divert any kill shots off himself to me. If he did, I think we lose, no matter what.

 

REALLY hope you made the right decision Rorschach.

[hazelkrs1]

I think it´s funny that you make that kind of vc analyzis, Des. Especially since you were on all of the same trains as me except for day 3. You are either sk or mafia and Verb is the other. If I´m alive tomorrow, I will go back and re-read. You really fooled me, I was sure of you being town. 

 

BS. And it wasn't just the vote analysis that did it for me, it was thinking about the setup and what we've seen so far, and your speed hammer on BG didn't help either. This looks like total OMGUS.

[Niniel]

It´s just a matter of eliminating. It´s not me. We all agree that it´s not Pralaya. So there is just you and Verb left. Simple. 

[hazelkrs1]

Just severely not in the mood to compile those WoT's now. Just got off the phone with my Mom. Put me on such a guilt trip I should probably be eligible for a flight to Honolulu from my frequent flier miles. Blech.

 

Minisynopsis on Tina:

Played a very careful, very protown type game. Offered help with VC's, asked about others checking in, etc. For me that's a little bit questionable when someone is playing the "helpful townie" role too hard.

I thought she was town for her reads, but if she is third party (she was one of the first to mention it strongly in this thread I believe, kept saying she was getting 3rd party vibes from Tiink a lot) SK, then she could scumhunt as well as town could.

I've seen her play as SK before, and she did a great job. Could easily see the same going on here as well.

Was on every lynch, and speedhammered BG. Speedhammering is off for her, she usually preaches caution towards endgame. Also offered a lot of outs and trepidation a lot of times she voted for a lynch (like in CSarlami's case, and on Tiink's lynch). Very SKish.

Recently flip flopped on me when I finally started seeing her scumminess.

 

Minisynopsis on Verbal:

 

Oh, where to begin. Has played very scummy throughout the game. Was the opposite of Tina in that he was on very few lynches, playing like someone worried about how his votes might look.

He fought the Serra lynch and pushed the Tiink lynch harder than anyone. Added two diff "hat tipping" comments during that whole escapade, like it would have been so amazing on Serra's part if he turned out to be scum after all (Serra was uberscummy at that point. Only reason I ever switched off of him was Rorschach preempted during his CC)

Got all uberdefensive when I said I essentially had a "null" read on him, raving about being viewed town, etc.

The exchange he had when Chuckles revealed he was RB'ed was all KINDS of scummy. "Who did you view? Despo? Oh I thought you might view him :-). Why do I say that Tina? Oh I'll just quote Chuckles' explanation for why he viewed him and wink afterwards. Sweet"

His tier thing seems scrambled. Wth is the tier thing for when we'll be in MyLo? Won't exactly have that many chances to lynch correctly there.

In general I've felt his play has ramped up towards endgame, and many of his "reads" have seemed opportunistic, then he'll later go back and act like his reads were so golden. A day or so ago, he listed Hallia and Tina as Tier 1 candidates, and me and BG as Tier 2. Then recently acts like he was so spot on with those reads even tho only ONE of them turned out to be scum, and more importantly THE ONLY PEOPLE HE LEFT OFF THOSE TIERS WERE HIMSELF AND RORSCHACH, PRACTICALLY CONFIRMED TOWN AT THIS POINT. Congratulating yourself for your reads when you literally name almost every single player other than yourself is just terribad scummy.

 

---

 

I could list specific examples of a lot of this stuff, but I don't see much point in delving through all those quotes when I think both Verbal AND Tina are scum (see my post #1393), so the only one I'd actually be able to "convince" would be Rorschach. Since I think I have made my towniness very plain and obvious to see throughout this game, I hope he makes the right decision, both with his NA tonight and with his vote tomorrow.

[Verbal32]

Wow, Des.....you are sorta like the Ape. Make some great comments, and then talk yourself out of them before you even finish the post. Amazing.

 

Before we lynched, I said Hallia or Tina. This was a few days ago. I took the potential scum players and put them in tiers. No kidding it was all the remaining players. Thanks for that, Captain Obvious.

 

The tiers are to indicate the level of suspicion I had on each. You and BG were T2....the girls were T1. One of my T1 is still alive (Tina), and the other flipped scum (Hallia). This tells me I put the tiers together well.

 

I have no idea if there is a SK. It isn't me. I'm also not the GF - I think that's just too much for all the symps out there....a GF doesn't seem to balance well. Use that logical conclusion to drive lynches tomorrow.

 

Side Note: a couple of those lynches I wasn't on were likely secured in the evenings, when I'm scarce. That should not be indicative of my alignment or any suspicious activity.

 

 

I'm sticking with my tier: I say Tina is #1 and Des is #2. If they both die, town 100% wins.

 

 

@ Des: if you think we both are scum (her being SK and me being GF), then it shouldn't matter to you what order we lynch in, right? So lynch Tina first.

[Verbal32]

I think it´s funny that you make that kind of vc analyzis, Des. Especially since you were on all of the same trains as me except for day 3. You are either sk or mafia and Verb is the other. If I´m alive tomorrow, I will go back and re-read. You really fooled me, I was sure of you being town.

Yikes, this is a very common thing scum say towards the end when trying to sway popular opinion.

[Verbal32]

Defense of my decision to defend serra and lynch Tiinker:  Serra's defense had a tinge of logic to it.  If Pralaya was the fake claim, he was likely the VK.  We obviously couldn't lynch Pralaya.  This would have pointed to lynching serra instead.....which made me pause, because that isn't the typical move of a scum player.  So it made me think to continue with the Tiinker lynch instead.

 

Add to that the fact that Pralaya's counter wasn't as solid as it could have been.  If he had jumped down serra's throat and not let up, I might have been convinced.

 

All in all, it was a solid fake claim by serra and a good move.  When fake claims have real logic built into them, they work.

 

That should explain the situation from my POV. 

[Verbal32]

after that

 

i think ill vote hally

 

i think competing trains between the two will be helpful 

 

I agree. Vote Hally

 

Ehm... I write before I think. I don´t see any of them more scummy or townie then the other. I could as well vote Lenlo. Have everyone checked in today? 

 

Okay...

 

Game 1 ended with 6 people alive and 3 dead mafia. That means there were at least 3 scum roles still remaining for town not to be in the majority. Total of at least 6 scum.

 

Game 2 ended with 12 people alive and 1 dead mafia. That means there were at least 6 scum roles still remaining for town not to be in the majority. Total of at least 7 scum.

 

This game we are sitting at 4 dead mafia. My guess is that there are AT LEAST two scum left. So maybe they are both scum.

 

Could explain why Hally has a town read on Lenlo. 

 

 

This exchange between Tina and both Chuckles and BG (both townies) really makes me doubt my T1 read on Tina.  If she's scum, this is some epic freakin' bussing, lol.

 

Obviously, she could be a 3rd party and therefore scum hunting like a champ....dunno.

 

Pralaya, you could potentially bus drive the town into a win tonight, heh.  No pressure....