How powerful is Nynaeve with that angreal of hers?

[False Dragon1991]

Dany and Cersei do not have the ability to blow whole buildings up. Yet, for Dany. She is going to kill A LOT of people on that dragon FYI. Also Dany isn't always being captured and in need of rescue and isn't always running away. 

 

Um, superman isn't a warrior or a trained soldier. But he has superpowers which make up for it. So their prescribed role shouldn't really matter. Also, during most of their arc they are actually more adventurers or captives than in positions of authority. I don't understand why they wouldn't use their powers in those circumstances.

 

An angreal can increase a channelers power exponentially. Moiraine who is barely able to channel anymore is made stronger than she was before. You repeatedly see Rand with an angreal blow up armies single handed and take on dozens of channelers. So, 3 women with angreal can't beat a few hundred Seanchan and a dozen damane? Really?

 

You object to filler material about fighting a threat with the OP. But have no problem with elaborate descriptions of food, clothing, spending whole chapters in the menagerie learning to be performers and general wandering about? Or, the dull, repetitive, silly mary sue, untense and make no sense political stories which go on too long? Having read Game of Thrones the "intrigue" of Egwene and Elaynes story is really poor by comparison. The author seems to have assumed that more material would give the impression of the characters struggling and seem less inevitable. But a few fight scenes in the 13 books where the girls never fight would have been filler?

 

 

Also, Cersei? Strong? "I am a lion. Hear me roar!"- bangs fists off door. Yeah...strong woman; not over-compensating for stupidity at all. :D

[Yamezt]

An angreal can increase a channelers power exponentially. Moiraine who is barely able to channel anymore is made stronger than she was before. You repeatedly see Rand with an angreal blow up armies single handed and take on dozens of channelers. So, 3 women with angreal can't beat a few hundred Seanchan and a dozen damane? Really?

 

Moiraine's angreal is at the threshold of being a sa'angreal. We do not know the fat man strength. It may be possible to infer, if we ignore BS statement that Moiraine angreal is not the same as the one Lanfear use, that the fat man is of sufficiently comparable strength for Rand to hold off Lanfear for a time.

 

We do not have any given mathematical formula as to how it work, so I would say "exponential" may or may not be correct.

 

And we return to the title of your thread. The 3 angreal found in Ebou Dar, the weakest, presumably allowed someone of Elayne/Avi strength to hold double their ability (based on Avi & Elayne's conversation). The in-between one allowed someone of Elayne/Avi strenght to hold double that of Nynaeve (and Nynaeve will do even better using it). I do not remember any description as to the relative strength with Nynaeve's angreal only that it is "stronger" (and "much stronger" than Cadsuane's Angreal, which allowed Cadsuane to hold at least equal to double that of the Link formed by Merise and Elza).

 

If we assume a static multiplicative increase (and I emphasize that this may not be the author's intent), then Moiraine's angreal is out of the other 4 angreal's league. 

[False Dragon1991]

I frankly don't see why there was a need to make Elayne and Aviendha a channeler, or to put such emphasis on Nynaeve n Egwene being powerful channelers. With the example of Moiraine this clearly set me down a wrong line of thinking. I assumed this meant they would all come into their own and get to fight like Moiraine. Instead, they do just about everything other than channeling and it becomes more a half mentioned quirk than anything else. Is there any reason Aviendha couldn't have been a normal non-channeler Wise One or remained a Maiden of the Spear? If her arc doesn't involve her being a channeler then why make her one and much less a supposedly powerful one? Same with Elayne. If her main deal is to be a leader and rule Andor then why bother making her a channeler and much less a supposedly very strong one? Nynaeve I can understand to a degree but theres no reason this can't just be a talent for healing. It would barely have changed their arcs for most of the series.

[Yamezt]

There is a thematic one viewing the present age lovers of Rand as cycles of the moon (Aviendha - maiden, Elayne - Woman/Mother, Min - Hag and channelling slow their aging to match Rand as a channeller), and the former lover Lanfear also as that of the moon.

 

13depository blog may have a write up of it if you search. But I fear it would not be about blowing stuff up though....

[David Selig]

I frankly don't see why there was a need to make Elayne and Aviendha a channeler, or to put such emphasis on Nynaeve n Egwene being powerful channelers. With the example of Moiraine this clearly set me down a wrong line of thinking. I assumed this meant they would all come into their own and get to fight like Moiraine. Instead, they do just about everything other than channeling and it becomes more a half mentioned quirk than anything else. Is there any reason Aviendha couldn't have been a normal non-channeler Wise One or remained a Maiden of the Spear? If her arc doesn't involve her being a channeler then why make her one and much less a supposedly powerful one? Same with Elayne. If her main deal is to be a leader and rule Andor then why bother making her a channeler and much less a supposedly very strong one? Nynaeve I can understand to a degree but theres no reason this can't just be a talent for healing. It would barely have changed their arcs for most of the series.

Something like 2/3 of Elayne's plotlines are directly related to her being a channeller. If not for that, she wouldn't have gone to hunt the BA, Tanchico, the search for the Bowl, etc. But yeah, she could've been an average channeller and very little would've changed.

[False Dragon1991]

There is a thematic one viewing the present age lovers of Rand as cycles of the moon (Aviendha - maiden, Elayne - Woman/Mother, Min - Hag and channelling slow their aging to match Rand as a channeller), and the former lover Lanfear also as that of the moon.

 

13depository blog may have a write up of it if you search. But I fear it would not be about blowing stuff up though....

 

I don't like a series which misleads you into thinking the female channelers are gonna at some point be as badass as Moiraine and then spends 13 books of them avoiding any fighting with the OP.

[Barid Bel Medar]

This topic has gotten way off course, and I don't see the point of it at this stage. 

 

Locked. 

[Barid Bel Medar]

Un-locked.

[lilltempest]

 

 

 I really can't remember her acting all that cowardly. I'm just told she is endlessly.

 

ACoS

She raised her hands, but as balefire launched itself, something flashed around her and she jerked. Moridin had come; he was there, and he would... She stared at the pigeons fluttering away. Pigeons! She nearly spewed the contents of her stomach across the roof. A glance at the river made her snarl.

   Because she had jerked, the balefire she meant to slice through cabin and passenger instead had sliced diagonally through the middle of the boat, about where the oarsmen had stood, and the bodyguards. Because the rowers had been burned out of the Pattern before the balefire struck, the two halves of the craft were now a good hundred paces back up the river. Then again, perhaps it was not a complete disaster. Because that slice from the boat’s center had gone at the same time the boatmen really died, the river had had minutes to rush in. The two parts of the boat sank out of sight in a great froth of bubbles even as her eyes shifted to them, carrying their passenger to the depths.

   Suddenly, what she had done struck her. She had always moved in the dim places, always kept herself hidden, always... Any woman in the city who could channel would know someone had drawn a great deal of saidar, if not for what, and any eye watching had seen that bar of liquid white fire sear across the afternoon. Fear gave her wings. Not fear. Terror.

   Gathering her skirts, she ran back down the stairs, ran through the common room Bumping into tables and careering off people trying to get out her way, ran into the street too frightened to think, battering a path through the crowd with her hands.

   "Run!" she shrieked, hurling herself into the sedan chair. Her skirts caught in the door; she ripped them free. "Run!"

 

In the AoL Mogi was a crooked financial advisor. That always makes me chuckle for some reason. Below is what the BWB says about her:

 

Actually, her having that much fear in her makes me consider her less of a coward.

 

Egwene was so disgusted by the amount of fear in her that it made her take off the A'dam bracelet. How could a person living with that much fear even FUNCTION?

 

She basically lives her life as a spy. How agonizing must living as a spy with that much terror in her feel?

 

 

^^ This.

 

People seem to confuse courage with arrogance/conceit/swagger. Whatever the dictionary may or may not use as a definition, 'courage' is acting in spit of your fear (Nynaeve is a perfect example of this, on many occasions). It takes no courage to do something you believe, without doubt, you can do...that's just existing, really, and if you are doing something others consider dangerous while still having no fear or doubts, then it's more arrogance/conceit/swagger than anything else ("See what I can do? I'm so awesome that I can fearlessly battle an army blindfolded!").  Moghedien was full of fear, no doubt, but she did things in spit of it, at times, so she did have courage.

[lilltempest]

Its hard to really get a sense of it because she hasn't fought since getting it all those books ago apart from a few miraculous healing scenes which didn't require her to draw on it. I hope in the final book she gets to use that angreal and all the other cool jewelry stuff she was given. Cadsuane seemed to think she was bad at anything other than healing. But at other times she seems to learn weaves instantly and had no problem using balefire to kill shadowhounds. Its always been a pet hate of mine that the supergirls have almost never got to blow stuff up in this series. I mean is Nynaeve basically a walking tactical nuke with that thing if she wanted; but the situation never presents itself?

 

Back to this...

 

Some people may choose to use Cadsuane's insulting attitude toward Nyn's abilities as the gospel, but she proved, during her testing, that she is not only imaginative with her use of weaves (like how she used some of the "pointless" 100 weaves to kill Shadowspawn, in ways no one, even their goddess Egwene, had considered), but she does the weaves well. No one during that testing had anything bad to say about her weaving. While she might have been sloppy with everything but Healing when Cadsuane first met her, that clearly changed. She learns weaves at first sight and, when she chooses to put in the effort (as she did when Daigan taught her the 100 weaves, and we didn't see Daigan saying a thing about her weaving either), she does them perfectly. 

 

So yeah, Nyn could have easily been a walking tactical nuke, but she is a character who is more about healing and caring than destruction. The only times we see her being destructive and offensive is when she's protecting her own life or the lives of those she cares for. To have her chasing down people, even Forsaken, in order to kill them, would have been out of character...unless they provoked her first. 

[Suttree]

 She learns weaves at first sight and, when she chooses to put in the effort (as she did when Daigan taught her the 100 weaves, and we didn't see Daigan saying a thing about her weaving either), she does them perfectly. 

 

Being able to copy weaves on sight is not the same as mastering them. In the above example with Daigian she actually memorizes in an off handed manner and doesn't work to develop them at all. Further we have examples of her being heavy handed/lacking dexterity with weavings outside of healing. That is established in the books.

 

Also trying to discredit the Cads statement ignores the fact that RJ backed it up with a quote of his own as did Nyn in her internal thoughts of how much she doesn't know. Not sure why the odd insistence to bring Egwene into the conversation(I swear you and Kael are like Saidar/Saidin opposites for that character) but Luckers said it best here:

 

Actually this isn't correct. From KoD: "Bennae's eyes were blue and sharp, her dark hair, caught in a silver net, liberally streaked with gray. Ink stains marked two of her fingers, and another smudged the side of her nose. She held a porcelain cup of tea, but she had not offered any to Egwene. "I think there is little of the Power that remains for you to learn, child.""

 

Compare that with Cadsuane's evaluation of Nynaeve, that her ability with healing is miraculous, her skill with anything else dismal.

 

This all fits. Nynaeve has the raw ability to be brilliant, she just resists it except within the capacity that she chooses. Egwene also has the raw ability to be brilliant, she's embraced it--sought it at every turn. Time and again Nynaeve's recalcitrance vs. Egwene's thirst for knowledge has been made clear. And it shows.

 

 

As for the testing, it's been confirmed that was a BS added scene that wasn't in the notes. We all know his propensity to get carried away "powering up" descriptions at times.

[lilltempest]

 

 She learns weaves at first sight and, when she chooses to put in the effort (as she did when Daigan taught her the 100 weaves, and we didn't see Daigan saying a thing about her weaving either), she does them perfectly. 

 

Being able to copy weaves on sight is not the same as mastering them. In the above example with Daigian she actually memorizes in an off handed manner and doesn't work to develop them at all. Further we have examples of her being heavy handed/lacking dexterity with weavings outside of healing. That is established in the books.

 

Also trying to discredit the Cads statement ignores the fact that RJ backed it up with a quote of his own as did Nyn in her internal thoughts of how much she doesn't know. Not sure why the odd insistence to bring Egwene into the conversation(I swear you and Kael are like Saidar/Saidin opposites for that character) but Luckers said it best here:

 

Actually this isn't correct. From KoD: "Bennae's eyes were blue and sharp, her dark hair, caught in a silver net, liberally streaked with gray. Ink stains marked two of her fingers, and another smudged the side of her nose. She held a porcelain cup of tea, but she had not offered any to Egwene. "I think there is little of the Power that remains for you to learn, child.""

 

Compare that with Cadsuane's evaluation of Nynaeve, that her ability with healing is miraculous, her skill with anything else dismal.

 

This all fits. Nynaeve has the raw ability to be brilliant, she just resists it except within the capacity that she chooses. Egwene also has the raw ability to be brilliant, she's embraced it--sought it at every turn. Time and again Nynaeve's recalcitrance vs. Egwene's thirst for knowledge has been made clear. And it shows.

 

 

As for the testing, it's been confirmed that was a BS added scene that wasn't in the notes. We all know his propensity to get carried away "powering up" descriptions at times.

 

 

Try to make Nyn seem an incompetent boob all you wish. RJ's comments were made before she was trained with the 100 weaves. I know you can't bear to give Nyn credit for anything, but facts are facts...she handled the weaves without trouble and no one insulted her weaving during the test. But hold on to your delusions, mate, that'd be nothing new. 

[Suttree]

Ermm what are you on about? It has nothing to do with Nyn getting credit and she happens to be a character I really enjoy. We are merely dealing with the facts in RJ's story, she mimics swiftly but has largely disdained training. This is a fact stated over and over. The logic in saying her all of a sudden copying the 100 weaves greatlly increases her skill with weaving is falacious. She has always been able to learn a weave on sight, but she has been uninterested in working on anything else besides healing which results in her being underdeveloped in other areas.

 

She distractedly copied the 100 weaves off hand and thought she was doing Diagian a favor. It doesn't teach her anything about the nature of the weaving or increase her skill.

[jedman67]

Try to make Nyn seem an incompetent boob all you wish. RJ's comments were made before she was trained with the 100 weaves. I know you can't bear to give Nyn credit for anything, but facts are facts...she handled the weaves without trouble and no one insulted her weaving during the test. But hold on to your delusions, mate, that'd be nothing new.

I'm not sure what you're trying to do here - personal attacks are frowned upon in this forum, btw.

 

Nynaeve was established as an exceptionally talented character with the ability to grow so much more. She doesn't - its a failing of hers, that she thinks she knows all there is to learn so she doesn't try to improve herself. She does have the raw talent, certainly. But she is assuredly incompetent at pretty much anything except Healing.

[Rhienne]

 

But she is assuredly incompetent at pretty much anything except Healing.

When is Nynaeve actually incompetent at weaving anything?  I don't think there is a single scene in the series where Nynaeve is unable to achieve the desired result from her weaves.  Yes, she may not be particularly dextrous with anything beyond Healing, but incompetent is a bit of an overstatement in my opinion.

[Nightstrike]

Yes, she's a walking nuke compared to most, and she'd win against the 3 wonder girls if she duelled them. She's a lot stronger than most people, and strength matters. She's not completely incompetent with weaves, and she's probably got some Talents as well. Duelling is probably one occasion when strength matters more than dexterity. Only real exception was the practically "wilder" damane and the well trained and practiced Forsaken, and that's not due to dexterity.

[Suttree]

Over and over in the books it's show that people value strength far too much. Brandon highlights that here:

 

 

Interview: 2013

Reddit 2013 (WoT)

Xx255q (March 2013)

If full Dragon had the same amount of power as pre-Dragon with the access key, how much power was full Dragon holding with his power multiplied? Or orders of magnitude larger? Such as, how many people who can hold the power equal him, or what could he do with all of it?

Brandon Sanderson

One of the realizations that Rand came to in the books was that brute, raw power was of far lesser importance than he'd once imagined. Comparing his power post and pre access key is a moot point, as it wasn't power he was seeking. It was a method to accomplish what he needed to accomplish. But, to give you something more of an answer to the question you're actually asking, Rand post-epiphany is not more powerful than Rand with the access key. However, he was far more efficient, as he gained hundreds of years of experience with the use of weaves.

 

 

 Duelling is probably one occasion when strength matters more than dexterity.

 

Except we see that isn't true on numerous occasions. A couple examples:

 

WH

She struck out again, but this time Talaan's flow of Spirit met hers much more lightly than she expected, and her own flow swept the other further aside than she had meant. Abruptly six weaves of Air shot out from the girl, darting toward Nynaeve, and Nynaeve quickly sliced them with Fire. The severed flows snapped back into Talaan, jolting her visibly, but before they had vanished properly, six more appeared, faster than before. Nynaeve slashed. And gaped as Talaan's weave of Spirit flickered around hers and wrapped around her, cutting off saidar. She was shielded! Talaan had shielded her! For the final indignity, flows of Air pinioned her arms and legs tightly, crushing her skirts.

WH

She was ready for the girl's trick this time. Channeling, she met Talaan's weave more dexterously, and without so much force. The girl smiled at her uncertainly. Thinking Nynaeve would not be distracted by extraneous flows of Air this time, was she? Talaan's weave began to curl around hers, and she nimbly spun her own to catch it. She would be ready when the woman produced her flows of Air. Or maybe not Air, this time. Nothing dangerous surely. This was practice. Only, Talaan's flow of Spirit did not complete that curl, and Nynaeve's swung wide while Talaan's struck straight at her and latched on. Once again, saidar winked out of her, and bonds of Air snapped her arms to her sides, fastened her knees.

 

Nynaeve could not match her dexterity and as a result loses the duel.

 

RJ has said knowledge can balance out strength as well:

 

 

Interview: Oct 4th, 2005

Robert Jordan's Blog: ONE MORE TIME

Robert Jordan

For Sidious, when Alivia faced Cyndane, Alivia was by far the stronger because of her angreal, and had various tools (ter'angreal) to work with besides, but Cyndane was much, much more knowledgeable about channeling. Alivia, after all, knew relatively little except how to be a weapon. That was very useful in the situation, but in this case, knowledge versus strength made it an even match.

[Nightstrike]

Talaan is equally strong as Nynaeve, and Egwene and Elayne admits that Nynaeve would have had a better chance against Rand than the two of them together. That settles it to me.

[Suttree]

As has been pointed out to you numerous times in past discussions strength played zero role in that duel. Further it has been proven conclusively that knowledge and dexterity can balance out brute strength as in the Alivia v. Cyndane duel where Alivia was "by far stronger"(and had immunity to direct weaves). Fans put far too much emphasis on channeler strength at times. Shrug.

[Nightstrike]

Who says it played zero role? Even if someone else than Suttree said it, then I still trust the characters judgment that Nynaeve would have had a better chance duelling Rand. -> I assumed you were talking about Nynaeve and Talaan, since that's what I referred to in the post before.

 

That one equally strong as person X defeats said person says nothing about what all imaginable weaker persons might achieve against eachothers or against person X.

[Suttree]

Who says it played zero role?

 

The text of Winter's Heart along with Luckers and Mr Ares in those old threads to name a few others. It's all there if you search.

 

The text says precisely that. Suttree quoted it for you.

 

If you don't agree show us the quote where strength played a factor in that duel. Better yet try to explain the RJ quote about Alivia v. Cyndane above.

[Nightstrike]

Yeah, so I expect to take your words over the character's own? Sorry, that is not good enough.

[Nightstrike]

Also, Talaan could be more Talented, stronger, and more dexterous than Elayne and Egwene (maybe even combined).

[Suttree]

Yeah, so I expect to take your words over the character's own? Sorry, that is not good enough.

 

No I expect people to support their arguments. I have done that with  quotes from the text and authors, the text clearly shows strength played no role.

 

Again show us the quotes that support your argument? Explain why we should take your opinion over that of the author when it coms to the role strength plays.

 

As for Talaan and Eggy we know that Egwene is very dexterous and has more knowledge than both Talaan and Nyn to boot.

[Nightstrike]

It is known that Egwene thought Nynaeve would have had a better chance against Rand than Egwene and Elayne together. That settles it for me. Meanwhile, their judgment on that issue is not overruled by anything else, and there's no reason to assume they misjudged Nynaeve versus themselves.