Does Tuon really think attacking the White Tower is going to work?

[Suttree]

Really, Rand and Cadsunae say that every Seanchan general and officer is as good as the five best military minds in Randland?

 

Quote?

[False Dragon1991]

What Ablar  said and thats why theres a question mark at the end of my sentence. 

[Yamezt]

“They call their army the Ever Victorious Army for a reason. It’s never lost a war. Battles, yes, but never a war.

 

When they lose a battle, they sit down and work out what they did wrong, or what the enemy did right.

 

Then they change what needs changing for them to win.”

 

“A wise way,” she said when the flow of words paused. Plainly, he expected some comment. “I know men who do the same. Davram Bashere, for one. Gareth Bryne, Rodel Ituralde, Agelmar Jagad.Even Pedron Niall did, when he was alive. All judged great captains.”

 

“Yes,” he said, still pacing. He did not look at her, perhaps did not see her, but he was listening. It was to be hoped that he actually heard, as well.

 

“Five men, all great captains. The Seanchan all do it. That’s been their way for a thousand years. They change what they have to change, but they don’t give up.”

 

- COT 

 

If this is what you are referring to, then you should go back just ONE line which says:

 

“I’ve been talking with Alivia, about the Seanchan,” he said

 

The opinion belongs to Alivia - Rand accepts it, but that hardly means "every" general or soldier is that way. I would assume the Seanchan are good at propaganda.

[False Dragon1991]

I don't think Rand and Cad are that nieve or gullible.

[Suttree]

 

The opinion belongs to Alivia - Rand accepts it, but that hardly means "every" general or soldier is that way. The Seanchan are very good at propaganda too.

This. We know they are, a good deal of their "stability" back home is propaganda for example, as we know there are frequent revolts and sedition.

 

Thanks for finding that quote James, couldn't recall what book it was from.

[Yamezt]

I don't think Rand and Cad are that nieve or gullible.

Cadsuane was very circumspect. She did not agree, or disagree. Try as I might to change the tone, I can't see that line as Cadsuane agreeing. She goes further:

 

“Are you considering the possibility they can’t be defeated?” she asked calmly. Calmness always suited until you knew the facts, and usually after, too.

 

I do not know why you see Cadsuane as agreeing or for the matter holding that view.

[False Dragon1991]

Its a belief which persists and which is validated by Itulride in the Gathering Storm. Even after he beats them he notes that these Seanchan learn from their mistakes and don't make the same mistake twice. Obviously most armies in the world would never get a second chance after losing 150,000 men in a single day; but this is the Seanchan they can lose that without any ill effect.

[MasterAblar]

They are a Mary Sue faction. They have taken these defeats and haven't even been dented. If Rand lost a hundred and fifty thousand men in a single battle that would basically be his entire army gone, much less the armies used by Egwene, the assembled borderlanders or anyone else for that matter. Falme is the only time they actually suffered a major setback and every single time they have just sent another bigger army to make up for the losses they suffered. In other words their defeats are negligible. Even Rome suffered a few defeats in its heyday from people it otherwise wiped the floor with (ie the Macedonians). It hasn't stopped them taking half the continent and being in a position to defeat Rand and strike at the White Tower.

 

Really, Rand and Cadsunae say that every Seanchan general and officer is as good as the five best military minds in Randland? That, they're apparently the only people in the world who understand the basic concept of "learn from your mistakes"; which is pretty silly in of itself. The reason why they recover is because they haven't been seriously damaged because they have an endless supply of elite soldiers and damane.

 

The Aeil method of war involves guerilla, ambush and small unit tactics. We are told Aeil can become invisible even in this unfamiliar terrain and that wetlanders fare poorly by comparison. However, the Seanchan apparently are also better light infantry and are easily able to track down such small bands. So, really, being dispersed shouldn't have made the Shaido any less dangerous, even seperated from chiefs and wise ones they could fight very well. The ones at the stone and their scouts operated entirely on their own and with initiative. Theres a real disconnect between how the Seanchan are dismissive of the Shaido and Rands Aeil but everyone else considers them incredible fighters. But, once again, Seanchan are shown as better coz the Seanchan are the Seanchan.  

 

Actually Rand has a faif few more men then 150 000. It would be a dent to be sure, but he has far more men at his disposal than that.

 

They're not in a position to defeat Rand. Rand actually believes he would beat them if he put the necessary ressources to the task, and I think he's right but it would be a textbook pyrrhic victory, although with Mat on his side perhaps not so much. Regardless, recall that the Seanchan have raken and so can strike pretty much anywhere although not with large numbers. And they don't control half the continent. They don't control a quarter of the continent. They've conquered 3 nations out of 14, and 3 of the weakest ones at that, and have faced little opposition from them.

 

I thought the idea that only the 5 great and the Seanchan understood that concept to be ridiculous too. But then I thought of WW1 and thought general can really be retarded so maybe it's not that unrealstic. Regardless, it was never said that every Seanchan officer was an equal to the Great Captains just that it widely understood concept in the Seanchan army to not try the same thing twice. There's a big difference. Understanding and applying are not the same thing.

 

The Seanchan have scouts in the air, which is something the Aiel have not encountered before. That may explain why the Seanchan were able to catch the Aiel. Beyond it's hard to say because we have absolutely no details.

[MasterAblar]

Its a belief which persists and which is validated by Itulride in the Gathering Storm. Even after he beats them he notes that these Seanchan learn from their mistakes and don't make the same mistake twice. Obviously most armies in the world would never get a second chance after losing 150,000 men in a single day; but this is the Seanchan they can lose that without any ill effect.

 

We really don't know how many men the Seachan have. For all we know they could be the equivalent of China. It depends on how many they managed to bring across the ocean, and how many more they recruited from the lands they conquered.

[False Dragon1991]

 

Its a belief which persists and which is validated by Itulride in the Gathering Storm. Even after he beats them he notes that these Seanchan learn from their mistakes and don't make the same mistake twice. Obviously most armies in the world would never get a second chance after losing 150,000 men in a single day; but this is the Seanchan they can lose that without any ill effect.

 

We really don't know how many men the Seachan have. For all we know they could be the equivalent of China. It depends on how many they managed to bring across the ocean, and how many more they recruited from the lands they conquered.

 

 

Its said that no pre-modern nation could have more than 1% of its population permanently under arms. Ming CHina (15th-16th century ish had a population of at most 200 million. Which means in total, it could have had 2 million soldiers in the field. But keeping such an army supplied across the ocean in a foreign country is a MUCH more difficult proposition than what you can have at home. Plus, if they do have a million soldiers it would be like if China put half its army in Europe during the 15th century.

 

@ Ablar - The Seanchan have never considered their position to be precarious or that Rand constitutes that dire a threat to their expedition. Given the competence of their military leaders, ascertained by others, they clearly do not consider Rand s Aeil army, his ashaman, or the ability to travel to constitute something which could end in them all making a nice hill to go alongside dragonmount. Neither they nor Tuon have ever considered they might lose so their position is a lot stronger than Rand thinks it is. For instance the army moving into Illian made little mention of the forces Rand has there or a consideration of how dangerous they are. The text suggests this isn't overconfidence or hubris but that these are intelligent people who have assessed the situation and realise that Rand is just another obstacle to be overcome.  

[BFG]

No, its ridiculous that they would have better channelers when the White Tower has an unbroken tradition going back to the breaking. The White Tower has fought wars in the past during the trolloc wars which have never been equalled until the present in terms of scale. Aes Sedai are weapons in addition to being scholars and politicians. The Seanchan don't even have any means of teaching their damane, they simply force them until they do because they don't study the use of the One power or teach there damane anything other than to obey; but apparently this form of training works wonders. When Egwene was a hostage when did her suldam actually tell her how to weave battle forms? Oh that's right, the suldam can't because they "don't see" the weaves.  If you keep hitting somebody they'll learn apparently. You would think that that knowledge and experience would count for something. Never mind that Egwene had one of the Forsaken teach her loads of stuff from the Age of Legends. Are you telling me the suldam know better battle forms than from the Age of Legends? Coz, obviously somebody who can't channel themselves would know the best techniques to "teach" and "learn" from "experience"...

 

 

I don't think I follow this argument. 

 

The Seanchan Channelers are an offshoot of the Aes Sedai from the WT, so all the knowledge that the AS had at the time went over to Seanchan with them, including any remnant of knowledge from the Breaking and Trolloc Wars.  Since then the Seanchan have been fighting more or less continuously against other armies with Channelers.  The AS have, on the whole been fighting Shadowspawn, who can't channel and individual men who can.  They're both a very different sort of fight than fighting an army of channelers. 

 

Egwene learned what she could from Moggy, but Moggy isn't a warrior.  Her talent lies in gathering information and (according to Birgette) in TAR.  I think that assuming that every channeler in the AOL has more knowledge than current channelers is a mistake, Aginor is the clearest example of this - in the AOL with laboratories he was invaluable in the modern day without his lab he was pretty useless.  Mesannas skill was in teaching, not fighting, etc. 

 

We also have a quote from Tuon that she had Mylen teach her other damane how to heal (can't think where it is right now).  I assume this is how knowledge of battle weaves is passed on.

[False Dragon1991]

THe Seanchan channewlers are the local channelers which were in Seanchan when Hawkwings army invaded. They have no connection to the White Tower whilst the trolloc wars were before hawkwings time, there were no Aes Sedai in the expedition because of Hawkwings dispute with the white tower, and never organised to ensure that knowledge and lore was passed down. Rival groups and Aes Sedai would be envious and fearful so wouldn't pass on their secrets to others. Hence they would have been a lot less knowledgeable so the suldam/damane would have had a very low base. 

[Suttree]

 Hence they would have been a lot less knowledgeable so the suldam/damane would have had a very low base. 

 

In every thing aside from fighting. Which is all they did.

[False Dragon1991]

I just don't like how Aes Sedai and other channelers seem to be helpless little girls whenever the Seanchan show up. To the point where now it looks like they're just going to walk into Tar Valon, even aside from the fact that there are tens of thousands of soldiers right next to them plus the warders who are supposed to be superhuman in their abilities. But no, a few hundred is all it takes. Egwenes vision already suggests the threat is there so...

[BFG]

BWB

 

The first a’dam was made by an Aes Sedai, Deain, who brought it to Luthair Paendrag in an attempt to curry favor with him. She knew he had no Aes Sedai in his armies, and for the most part the Aes Sedai hated him. Deain believed that Luthair would eventually win and felt that she would be richly rewarded for bringing him a gift that could hand him the Power of the Aes Sedai, willing or not. Several years after that, the first sul’dam were found - women who could learn to channel and had the spark, but could not actually channel without training. These women were considered ideal controllers of the damane, the Leashed Ones. For her trouble Deain was rewarded with imprisonment by her own device. She was, after all, Aes Sedai and thus not to be trusted. It is said her screams “shook the Towers of Midnight.”

Once the a’dam gained regular use, the title Aes Sedai disappeared completely from Seanchan, and those who could channel were renamed marath’damane, or Those Who Must Be Leashed.

 

 

Apologies Dragon - you are right the Aes Sedai were the ones already in Seanchan, so they have no knowledge of the Trolloc Wars (I just remember the 'the a'dam was created by one who called themselves Aes Sedai' and jumped through the wrong hoop) 

 

However that doesn't change the fact that AS our side of the ocean have no practical experience fighting other channelers in armies until very recently.  The Seanchan have been fighting channelers in armies more or less continuously since Luthair went over, if not since the Breaking.  So in this one specific aspect, they have a huge advantage.  The battle skills may be important now, due to the nature of the times, but it hasn't always been important and won't be again. 

[Yamezt]

 

Thanks for finding that quote James, couldn't recall what book it was from.

 

You're welcome ^^

 

I just don't like how Aes Sedai and other channelers seem to be helpless little girls whenever the Seanchan show up. 

I agree - but the A'dam is meant to a formidable tool against channellers and RJ probably intended to evoke revulsion in tGH with Egwene's capture. However, as far as I can remember the large majority of time the Seanchan usually outnumber the Randland channellers when we see have these "helpless encounters" or been sneaky (yay forkroot) or went on an attack that caught channellers present by surprise (Falme, Ebou Dar.)

 

The closest to an "equal" encounter was with Semirage and Rand - 6 on 6 (though 2 on rand side had angreals, and the skirmish was really fought 5 on 6)

[Agitel]

The Aiel are probably better warriors but they are a force of irregulars who don't use channelers in battle. Seanchan are equipped with channeling power, the only force to do so. It's not that they have the best soldiers, it's their organizational structure that the Seanchan excel at. One united force.

[False Dragon1991]

The Aiel are probably better warriors but they are a force of irregulars who don't use channelers in battle. Seanchan are equipped with channeling power, the only force to do so. It's not that they have the best soldiers, it's their organizational structure that the Seanchan excel at. One united force.

 

The aiel aren't presented as being irregulars or undisciplined. They, at Malden for instance, use flanking and other manuevre warfare. At tar Valon they organized a retreat. This all implies that Aiel are able to operate as a conventional army just as well if not better than some of the "civilised nations". They aren't truly irregulars. They are from a warrior society where bloodfued and fighting dominate the enitre male portion of the society and a fair chunk of the womens lives as well. Its comparable to, say, the Huns. None of them were technically professional soldiers but because they constantly fought and their leaders provided effective tactics n leadership it didn't matter that they lacked the formal structure of the "civilised" Roman army. For instance Itulride never suggests that he could use his clever tactics to outfight or outthink the undisciplined Aeil; which you would expect if this were the case.

 

 

Although the Aiel are presented as good soldiers and a great army they are still presented as much worse than the Seanchan who have no problem dealing with them in short order.

[Rhienne]

 

 

The Aiel are probably better warriors but they are a force of irregulars who don't use channelers in battle. Seanchan are equipped with channeling power, the only force to do so. It's not that they have the best soldiers, it's their organizational structure that the Seanchan excel at. One united force.

I think this is one of the major differences - that the Seanchan regularly integrate channelers and non-channelers in battle, and have developed tactics that can make the most of both working in tandem.  While the AS may be as skilled in battle (certainly the Green Ajah should be if not the rest) or more experienced in the OP in general, most sisters outside of the Green Ajah don't have much recent experienced of fighting, and I would imagine even the Green Ajah act more independently when they help on the blight border, instead of being incorporated as part of the force they are working with (like the Seanchan damane).

[Mr Ares]

 

“They call their army the Ever Victorious Army for a reason. It’s never lost a war. Battles, yes, but never a war.

 

When they lose a battle, they sit down and work out what they did wrong, or what the enemy did right.

 

Then they change what needs changing for them to win.”

 

“A wise way,” she said when the flow of words paused. Plainly, he expected some comment. “I know men who do the same. Davram Bashere, for one. Gareth Bryne, Rodel Ituralde, Agelmar Jagad.Even Pedron Niall did, when he was alive. All judged great captains.”

 

“Yes,” he said, still pacing. He did not look at her, perhaps did not see her, but he was listening. It was to be hoped that he actually heard, as well.

 

“Five men, all great captains. The Seanchan all do it. That’s been their way for a thousand years. They change what they have to change, but they don’t give up.”

 

- COT 

 

If this is what you are referring to, then you should go back just ONE line which says:

 

“I’ve been talking with Alivia, about the Seanchan,” he said

 

The opinion belongs to Alivia - Rand accepts it, but that hardly means "every" general or soldier is that way. I would assume the Seanchan are good at propaganda.

It should be noted that the Seanchan have institutionalised the methods of the Great Captains, but that doesn't mean the people fighting the battles are as capable of executing those methods as the great Captains are. They might study the battle and fail to spot crucial flaws in their plan, and so repeat mistakes. They might overcorrect, or fail to spot how their adaptation has created a new problem. You can take what is said at face value and still not come to the conclusion that every Seanchan general is as good as the Great Captains, only that they apply the same methods.

 

The Aiel are probably better warriors but they are a force of irregulars who don't use channelers in battle. Seanchan are equipped with channeling power, the only force to do so. It's not that they have the best soldiers, it's their organizational structure that the Seanchan excel at. One united force.

Also, let's not overlook that the Shaido in their entirety, not just the warriors, had left the Waste. The Seanchan method was basically to find a Shaido camp and batter it into submission with damane. Aiel civilians might be better fighters than most Wetlanders, but they are still not soldiers or warriors - most of the Aiel we meet are warriors or Wise Ones, but that doesn't make them representative. We know the Aiel have blacksmiths, even if we never meet one, to give one example.

 

Most of the Seanchan advantages in the series have explanations. The Sea Folk spend all their lives at sea, but are a merchant force rather than a military one, while the Seanchan have warships - the Seanchan win at sea because they fight at sea. Their raid on the WT bypasses the armies outside TV - those armies would have to mobilise in the middle of the night, with no warning, and either be let into the city or break in to be a relevant consideration. The Seanchan plan a raid, nothing more - they go in, they grab as many AS as they can, then they go. In and out, quickly, against an enemy unprepared for attack at all, especially from the skies. They regularly use channelers in battle, and their channelers are better at fighting even if their skills are lacking elsewhere - while the ability to fight might be more useful in a war than many others, in peace time the other factions have more extensive capabilities that make them more useful. The problems with them are not as severe as are being made out.

[False Dragon1991]

Right, I ve read the battle itself. 

 

 

That made no sense.

 

-How is ogier and power wrought stone blown apart so easily? That tower withstood the trolloc wars and dreadlords. But a couple fireballs and lightenings does the trick?

 

-Why does every Aes Sedai forget how to link during that battle except for Egwene? Its standard practice for them when they take on a man and it gives them a colossal advantage over the Seanchan who cannot do this due to adams. If they are pressed why didn't the various ajahs form circles?

 

-What is this nonsense about "superior battle weaves". This is a close quarters battle between small groups not a clash of great armies. If an Aes Sedai can throw a fireball then thats enough to blow a damane to pieces. Doing it to a trolloc is as easy as a damane especially since those leashes impede movement so dodging fireballs would be difficult. The damanes ability to deploy more ordinance wouldn't make much difference since their small numbers would tell after losses to sporadic fire. It simply should not matter in this context. Are Aes Sedai now only able to light candles?

 

- Really? None of the tower guard have crossbows? In a siege where they are expecting an attack on the walls? 

 

-This is a close quarters fight through the corridors. You mean to tell me the warders, power enhanced supermen, are overwhelmed by a small number of fists of heaven and a few clumsy suldam trailing their damane about? They only have 5 of those assasians but no of course the super invincible army cuts through all of them like wiping a dirty arse.

 

-Why attack the tower itself? There are more marath damane in the rebel Aes Sedai camp. They don't have the advantage of tower defences to hide behind, they can make full advantage of having a clear field of vision for their advantage of aerial damane bombardment, as well as making extraction of captured damane easier and they clearly aren't intimidated by the numbers of regular soldiers or warders so... 

 

-Egwene. In a circle to make her as strong as she was normally. One of the most powerful female channelers and especially in fire n earth for a woman. With a powerful sangreal. Only kills a third of the force or a hundred people which leaves her exhausted? That is stupid. Normal rand or a regular male channeler can kill hundreds in seconds. Lanfear without even an angreal let alone a saangreal wiped out hundreds of Rands aeil at the docks. What, do Seanchan have plot armor or something. I bet if it had been a bunch of trollocs she used that sanagreal on the casualties would have been vastly greater. Veterancy does not matter against that kind of power any more than being a soldier ant or worker to a boot. Really inconsistent, especially since Egwene was aiming to kill these people and prevent them escaping. I don't see how that is beyond her with access to a sangreal. Even a regular Aes Sedai can kill a flying Raken with a regular fireball.    

 

 

 

On a related point. What happened to Rand saying he was going to wipe the Seanchan out in a fell swoop with what he had in Arad Doman and Illian if he could not make a peace? I get that he said he was thinking too much on the world after he was dead and now thinks he has to focus. Never mind that he has the means to do this. If he has truly taken this dark turn and is so hard he will do anything to win. Why didn't he just use the access key to kill Tuon and her damane at Falme? Without their empress to unite them they would fall into infighting and be crippled. Or just use the access key and travel to every Seanchan army and city and destroy them with travelling. Not balefire, just a firestorm or rend the earth apart. He absolutely has the means and probably the mind-set currently to do it if it would take the heat off his forces to spare more for the Last Battle.Plus, I might have been wrong, but did he try using mild compulsion on Tuon? Thats another thing he could have done, forced her to agree to a truce.

[Rhienne]

 

 

-How is ogier and power wrought stone blown apart so easily? That tower withstood the trolloc wars and dreadlords. But a couple fireballs and lightenings does the trick?

Is ogier masonry any stronger than normal masonry?  I can only recall the beauty of it, and its 'organic' appearance being commented on.  I also thought that it was only constructed with the power, i.e. using weaves of air to carry stones, etc., not that any special extra strength had been imbued in it.

 

 

 

-Why does every Aes Sedai forget how to link during that battle except for Egwene? Its standard practice for them when they take on a man and it gives them a colossal advantage over the Seanchan who cannot do this due to adams. If they are pressed why didn't the various ajahs form circles?

Not sure.  I think linking in general is overestimated, particularly in battles where channelers may need to act individually, i.e. where they are facing multiple foe rather than one of the Forsaken.  However, the rebel AS were organised to form circles, so its obviously something AS are aware of as a defensive tactic.  I was going to say perhaps they were so shocked by being attacked within the WT that they couldn't think straight, but the fact that all these women have passed the AS tests suggests they should be able to channel effectively and meet objectives under such a scenario.

 

 

 

-What is this nonsense about "superior battle weaves". This is a close quarters battle between small groups not a clash of great armies. If an Aes Sedai can throw a fireball then thats enough to blow a damane to pieces. Doing it to a trolloc is as easy as a damane especially since those leashes impede movement so dodging fireballs would be difficult. The damanes ability to deploy more ordinance wouldn't make much difference since their small numbers would tell after losses to sporadic fire. It simply should not matter in this context. Are Aes Sedai now only able to light candles?

I would assume the damane have some superior weaves in that sul'dam have spent thousands of years training for all sorts of combat scenarios.  However, the Green Ajah at least should be equally effective.  However, having said that, we don't see much evidence of any great innovation from either party - in general, damane seem to use the same weaves as AS in combat (fireballs and lightning) with the addition of exploding earth.  I think maybe the Seanchan damane and sul'dam are just more focused and less flustered in a combat situation, especially as they don't know Healing so can't be distracted by their injured.  The AS are also constricted by their oaths, so I imagine there was initially some delay in them being able to fight back.  For example, would an AS be able to attack a damane targeting a Novice?  Or would she be able to kill a sul'dam collaring another Aes Sedai rather than actually threatening her life?  

 

 

 

- Really? None of the tower guard have crossbows? In a siege where they are expecting an attack on the walls? 

Maybe the raken have really tough skin?  Or maybe we just don't read about the crossbowmen fighting back.

 

 

 

-This is a close quarters fight through the corridors. You mean to tell me the warders, power enhanced supermen, are overwhelmed by a small number of fists of heaven and a few clumsy suldam trailing their damane about? They only have 5 of those assasians but no of course the super invincible army cuts through all of them like wiping a dirty arse.

My money would have been on the Warders too, but I think the Deathwatch Guard are not far off.  I think the element of surprise was a massive benefit to the Seanchan.  Every Seanchan involved in the raid knew what they were doing and what was happening.  The people in the Tower had no idea what was going on and no chance to organise a defence.  I doubt the AS even had any kind of plan to defend the WT itself as the thought of the WT being attacked before Tar Valon as a whole must have been unthinkable to them (although with knowledge of Travelling they should have been thinking about it).

 

 

 

-Why attack the tower itself? There are more marath damane in the rebel Aes Sedai camp. They don't have the advantage of tower defences to hide behind, they can make full advantage of having a clear field of vision for their advantage of aerial damane bombardment, as well as making extraction of captured damane easier and they clearly aren't intimidated by the numbers of regular soldiers or warders so... 

It would definitely have been an easier target but did the Seanchan know about the rebel army, or where it was?  I don't recall whether they paid much attention to the split in the Tower.

 

 

 

-Egwene. In a circle to make her as strong as she was normally. One of the most powerful female channelers and especially in fire n earth for a woman. With a powerful sangreal. Only kills a third of the force or a hundred people which leaves her exhausted? That is stupid. Normal rand or a regular male channeler can kill hundreds in seconds. Lanfear without even an angreal let alone a saangreal wiped out hundreds of Rands aeil at the docks. What, do Seanchan have plot armor or something. I bet if it had been a bunch of trollocs she used that sanagreal on the casualties would have been vastly greater. Veterancy does not matter against that kind of power any more than being a soldier ant or worker to a boot. Really inconsistent, especially since Egwene was aiming to kill these people and prevent them escaping. I don't see how that is beyond her with access to a sangreal. Even a regular Aes Sedai can kill a flying Raken with a regular fireball.

BS seems to have had trouble keeping track of how powerful channelers and *greal should be.  Its certainly a pretty complex system, but we do seem to see Vora's wand at different power levels throughout the series, and circles having different levels of effect.  I think the power of a circle was possibly toned down somewhat.  In ACoS we see Nynaeve shielded (and unable to break free) by two fairly standard strength AS in a circle with no angreal to help them.  I think the power added by each additional channeled is less than just stacking their strengths (could be wrong there though).  Its difficult to compare all the different scenarios that we see though - but I know there is a comment somewhere in WH about an AS or a WO being equivalent to 100 soldiers (I think its one of Perrin's chapters), so yes, a very strong AS plus circle plus very powerful sa'angreal should be doing some serious damage; I would guess maybe equivalent to 1000 regular soldiers.  I suppose Egwene was maybe holding back because she didn't want to damage the Tower too much, or didn't want to take her own forces out.  Fighting a spread out force in closed in areas is very different from fighting an army in an open field.  I'm not sure why we didn't see her blasting 15 raken out of the sky at a time though - we know she can split her flows about this many ways, and when you add that to the power of Vora's sa'angreal she should be pretty powerful.  Did the forkroot still have a lingering effect?

[False Dragon1991]

Egwene is described as like a cold wrathful spirit of vengence and is imagining that every suldam is the one who had her in Falme. I don't think she was holding back! :D Oh that was so good with those smug c**** getting massacred. But, the forkroot meant she could only channel the tiniest sliver. The circle of novices is described as returning her to full strength essentially; enough to use the sa angreal. So essentially it was as if she had picked up the sangreal on a normal day. Also, she was mainly shooting out at the fliers outside the tower and so wouldn't be hitting friendlies. In fact she almost crushes Gawyn with a falling rakan she kills. Just killing 30 fliers though seems a little weak though. Even a normal fireball can down one of them and the fight seems to go on a long time. 

 

Well, actually thats sort of off since the Seanchan have only 300 soldiers at the tower. Of which 50 pairs of suldam/damane so only 200 soldiers. So, if Egwene in that instance was worth a thousand soldiers. You would think she wouldn't have any trouble killing all the fliers.

 

I think its just because the plot needed the Seanchan to get away with those prisoners that they did manage to do that and because the Seanchan could only bring a tiny handful she could only kill so many and leave others for the rest. Plus, I think Tuon is going to think of this as a victory and we don't want her losing too many of her fliers since she committed all of them to this action. Probably for the Last Battle. Even when, really, IMO Egwene should have destroyed that token force in seconds with access to a powerful sangreal. TBH I think its stupid that 300 soldiers could assault the White Tower, even with 50 of the inexplicably over powered suldam. Gods, I hope this doesn't continue when the Aes Sedai start bringing bonded Ashaman to kill these seanchan. Surely these in circles would be able to beat any force of damane who cannot link?  

 

 

Also- Suicide soldiers? Really? Tuon actually has suicide soldiers? I want Matt to bend this woman over his knee and tan her backside. She is ridiculous.

[Gnarlhorn]

I pretty much agree with your assessment of the battle.  I expected that you would feel that way when you read it.

 

While it's certainly possible to explain away each individual curiosity, as Rhienne has done above, it does little to make the entire event believable, to me.

 

I only have a few things to add to your critique, because I do agree with most of your points.  The first is that they attacked with ~100 raken, correct?  Raken should be, and have been shown to be, incredibly easy to shoot down.  If 20 sisters shoot down one each, and Egwene shoots down merely 10, that's a third of their force.  That should hardly take more than a few minutes.  If they aren't attacking together, but rather flying out of range, it just makes the ones in range able to be targeted by even more AS.  Really, a surprise attack can do a lot of damage and you can accomplish a lot in the minutes that it takes your enemy to respond.  But this battle should have turned within 10 minutes.  I don't want to go on and on about how many raken carried this, how many carried that, etc.  Suffice it to say I think 100 of them would have been scattered with minimal effort.

 

My next complaint has to do with combat effectiveness of the damane.  From what I can gather, damane are artillery.  Damane are fielded with regular armies and are meant to blow up a lot of enemies from afar.  Their collars, their training, their being led by sul'dam all make sense in this context - they are sentient howitzers and the sul'dam is their crew.  Aes Sedai, on the other hand, are duelists.  They have broad knowledge of weaves, lots of subtlety and dexterity, and an understanding of the power.  As was mentioned by False Dragon1991, it doesn't take a massive amount of firepower to kill a single channeler.  Especially in close quarters, AS should have a distinct advantage over damane.  They can make decisions more quickly (noone giving them orders), they can adapt, they can utilize a larger variety of weaves, and they can out-maneuver damane.  Most(all?) of the One Power duels we witness through PoV are a lot like a sword fight or even a chess game.  You bluff, feint, parry, and ultimately try to outsmart and outmaneuver your opponent - even the most powerful channelers we see have to do these things in a duel.  Artillery isn't designed or trained to do these things... Aes Sedai are.

 

 

Here is what I will say about the battle in general.  Its impact seems to have been greatly overstated during and immediately after it happened.  Obviously there was structural damage to the Tower, and I can't remember how many AS were said to have died or been captured.  I think it would be unrealistic to expect more than 10 captured and 10 dead - at most.  Nevertheless, though it seemed dramatic at the time, the attack doesn't seem to have really made any difference to the AS's overall battle readiness.  Most damage seems to have come from the bloodknives that remained.  For that reason, I'd have to venture a guess that the Seanchan were given plot armor for this incident solely for the opportunity to let us see Elaida collared.

[Suttree]

You bluff, feint, parry, and ultimately try to outsmart and outmaneuver your opponent - even the most powerful channelers we see have to do these things in a duel.  Artillery isn't designed or trained to do these things... Aes Sedai are.

 

As has been mentioned damane have been fighting in battles and "dueling" other damane constantly throughout the entire time since the consolidation. Once sul'dam reach a certain amount of experience and skill they can form the weaves themselves through the damane so they do not need to "tell them" to do anything. AS have not fought other channelers aside from the occasional males since the trolloc war and there is nothing to indicate all AS even practice dueling. Damane are far more accomplished at battle weaves. As for the linking that is far more of a "howitzer" situation where you need to tell someone what to do:

 

ACoS

   "A circle, Cadsuane?" the Gray asked. Head turning this way and that to peer at the fog, she looked like a plump, pale-haired sparrow with her sharp nose and inquisitive eyes. Not a frightened sparrow, but one definitely ready to take wing. "Should we link?"

   "No, Niande," Cadsuane sighed. "If you see something, you must be able to strike at it without waiting to point it out for me.