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Am I the only one who is pissed over the anticlimactic end to Fain's story?

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Instead of looking at Fain as this potential uber nemesis, I see him more as the tragic final victim of Mashadar.  First driven mad by his hunt of the DR, then corrupted and ultimately destroyed by the tool he insanely tried to control to fulfill his doomed mission.

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For me, Padan Fain = Boba Fett. Built up as a legendary badass by fans, but objectively, didn't do shit.

Actually, he objectively did do an incredible amount of damage, but unfortunately RJ left it to extremely short passages of one sentence or slightly more that you have to read way into to realize exactly what he accomplished. He was directly responsible for Pedron Niall's shenanigans which had serious world-based consequences, after all.

Indeed. Those saying he wasn't responsible for anything are greatly oversimplifying the situation.

 

 

They were side effects of his passing/touch.

 

He didn't go out of his way to "infect" Niall or Eladia.

He went to the Children so he would have a force he thought capable and willing to assail The Two-Rivers in an attempt to draw Rand to him.

He went to the white Tower to retrieve the Dagger.

 

The entity Fain became certainly had the intelligence and capability to conceive of elaborate schemes pertaining to long range goals.

Actually carrying any of them out a midst the Chaos and insanity that was Fain is a whole other story.

 

Everything and anything Fain accomplished or, mostly tried to accomplish, were short term in nature period.

 

He didn't control the Chaos he created, he couldn't! 

 

 

I think you're under the mistaken impression that the man has some evil disease (RJ debunked communicability, note). Nor am I talking about powers like his ability to create illusion, use fog or just having some dark miasma. I'm talking about an actual, genuine set of skills that Mordeth possessed prior to attaching himself to Fain. That's real skills, like blacksmithing, leatherwork or politicking. WoG here - RJ pointed out that Mordeth is accustomed to gaining the ears of the mighty, and that's certainly substantiated by the distant past and modern company he got himself into. He was a counselor/advisor; that was his specific skill set. Perrin makes stuff out of metal, Mordeth makes connections with people.

 

One of those connections he made was with Pedron Niall. The direct result of this connection was that despite being half nuts, Niall recognized his counsel as particularly clever and acted on it. Directly substantiated by a passage from the books,

 

TDR Prologue "But he was clever. It was he who helped Niall see the pattern emerging in events."

 

That's what I mean about Fain's build-up. He's given a lousy sentence that outright states what he's doing but it's PRIOR to the actual chaos he directly helped create so the reader isn't likely to pick up on it without falling back. Niall later compared his assistance of Rand the so-called false dragon by creating chaos as something to the affect of letting loose a lion in the streets and then killing the lion. High blasphemy, but all for the good of the cause, really.

 

If I recall, without looking, Niall's actions directly protected Rand (so that Fain could kill him himself, of course), set three nations into chaos, left them open to the Seanchan, and got a Great Captain killed, leaving the Whitecloak armies without worthy or competent leadership.

 

That's just the tip of an iceberg with Fain. Again, direct result of his special entirely human set of skills.

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For me, Padan Fain = Boba Fett. Built up as a legendary badass by fans, but objectively, didn't do shit.

Actually, he objectively did do an incredible amount of damage, but unfortunately RJ left it to extremely short passages of one sentence or slightly more that you have to read way into to realize exactly what he accomplished. He was directly responsible for Pedron Niall's shenanigans which had serious world-based consequences, after all.

Indeed. Those saying he wasn't responsible for anything are greatly oversimplifying the situation.

 

 

They were side effects of his passing/touch.

 

He didn't go out of his way to "infect" Niall or Eladia.

He went to the Children so he would have a force he thought capable and willing to assail The Two-Rivers in an attempt to draw Rand to him.

He went to the white Tower to retrieve the Dagger.

 

The entity Fain became certainly had the intelligence and capability to conceive of elaborate schemes pertaining to long range goals.

Actually carrying any of them out a midst the Chaos and insanity that was Fain is a whole other story.

 

Everything and anything Fain accomplished or, mostly tried to accomplish, were short term in nature period.

 

He didn't control the Chaos he created, he couldn't! 

 

 

I think you're under the mistaken impression that the man has some evil disease (RJ debunked communicability, note). Nor am I talking about powers like his ability to create illusion, use fog or just having some dark miasma. I'm talking about an actual, genuine set of skills that Mordeth possessed prior to attaching himself to Fain. That's real skills, like blacksmithing, leatherwork or politicking. WoG here - RJ pointed out that Mordeth is accustomed to gaining the ears of the mighty, and that's certainly substantiated by the distant past and modern company he got himself into. He was a counselor/advisor; that was his specific skill set. Perrin makes stuff out of metal, Mordeth makes connections with people.

 

One of those connections he made was with Pedron Niall. The direct result of this connection was that despite being half nuts, Niall recognized his counsel as particularly clever and acted on it. Directly substantiated by a passage from the books,

 

TDR Prologue "But he was clever. It was he who helped Niall see the pattern emerging in events."

 

That's what I mean about Fain's build-up. He's given a lousy sentence that outright states what he's doing but it's PRIOR to the actual chaos he directly helped create so the reader isn't likely to pick up on it without falling back. Niall later compared his assistance of Rand the so-called false dragon by creating chaos as something to the affect of letting loose a lion in the streets and then killing the lion. High blasphemy, but all for the good of the cause, really.

 

If I recall, without looking, Niall's actions directly protected Rand (so that Fain could kill him himself, of course), set three nations into chaos, left them open to the Seanchan, and got a Great Captain killed, leaving the Whitecloak armies without worthy or competent leadership.

 

That's just the tip of an iceberg with Fain. Again, direct result of his special entirely human set of skills.

 

 

Again, as I said, there is no question that he was more than capable of conceiving elaborate plans and schemes.

That was never the issue. The issue was actually carrying them out to the end.

His insanity granted him the attention span of a young child with ADD.

 

He thought up and even managed to start a lot of grand schemes. Finish them however...not so much.

The only greatness Fain ever achieved was in his own mind.

Most readers, myself included, were suckered in by his self proclaimed and completely false grandeur.

 

Again, I can only tell you how I felt at his demise. At first, like most, I felt disappointed by it but then I thought about it. Thought about what he ever actually accomplished and it took very little thinking to realise that his demise was proper and fit perfectly.

Even his last thoughts, that he was too powerful and his greatness to vast to end like it did.

 

In the end, don't blame BS for the way Fain met his fate, blame RJ or really, blame yourself for letting RJ fool you in the first place. Cause fool us he most certainly did.

Edited by Finnssss

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After the epicness of the last battle, it was nice I thought to have a few throwaway villain deaths.  THey were almost comic relief.  Moggy getting the collar slapped on, and Fain getting stabbed with his own.

 

"Whahahaha, now I am the ultimate evil of the land, I will rend and tear this wor..."  *BONK*  dead.

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In the end, don't blame BS for the way Fain met his fate, blame RJ or really, blame yourself for letting RJ fool you in the first place. Cause fool us he most certainly did.

Ok not sure why all the deflections at this point. Fain's ending and how it was handled has been broken down by various people from a literary perspective. If someone says for instance that the execution was poor because of the cliffhanger and profound power ramp up we get in in ToM and that his death after less than 2 pages in AMoL seems poorly set up and rushed, countering with "well he was never really important/never accomplished anyhting" doesn't address the criticism in the slightest.

 

As for RJ we have no idea how he would have executed things so not sure how we blame him? As with many things the reality of how it played out in AMoL likely would have been very different. Its been argued by a number of people that Fain would not play a large role in the ending so there is no blanket "fooling" situation really. Regardless again it doesn't address the issues being raised.

 

What we do know is the execution we got towards the end was poor. Actually there is no blame, just a critique around one of the things that could have been handled better.

Edited by Suttree

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Reminds me of many movie characters that were mishandled story wise.

 

Venom, the Fallen, Bane anyone???

 

Every project has these characters that are built up and then do not accomplish anything that causes major trouble, or that accomplish things, just not as fans predicted, though I do agree it could have been done better. It is the way the world works. 

 

It is these sort of problems that make a movie or t.v show unlikely right now, without removing parts of the novels.

 

On a side note, has anyone had a look at that amazing rant on David Edding's Mallorean series? I have! It makes this debate look like a picnic.

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Reminds me of many movie characters that were mishandled story wise.

 

Venom, the Fallen, Bane anyone???

 

Every project has these characters that are built up and then do not accomplish anything that causes major trouble, or that accomplish things, just not as fans predicted, though I do agree it could have been done better. It is the way the world works. 

 

It is these sort of problems that make a movie or t.v show unlikely right now, without removing parts of the novels.

 

On a side note, has anyone had a look at that amazing rant on David Edding's Mallorean series? I have! It makes this debate look like a picnic.

Venom wasn't mishandled.  He was handled as a disaster from the beginning, exactly as Sam Raimi intended.  He never wanted Venom in the movie in the first place, and when the studio forced him, he pretty much said, "OK, fine, here's a pile of crap."

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In the end, don't blame BS for the way Fain met his fate, blame RJ or really, blame yourself for letting RJ fool you in the first place. Cause fool us he most certainly did.

Ok not sure why all the deflections at this point. Fain's ending and how it was handled has been broken down by various people from a literary perspective. If someone says for instance that the execution was poor because of the cliffhanger and profound power ramp up we get in in ToM and that his death after less than 2 pages in AMoL seems poorly set up and rushed, countering with "well he was never really important/never accomplished anyhting" doesn't address the criticism in the slightest.

 

As for RJ we have no idea how he would have executed things so not sure how we blame him? As with many things the reality of how it played out in AMoL likely would have been very different. Its been argued by a number of people that Fain would not play a large role in the ending so there is no blanket "fooling" situation really. Regardless again it doesn't address the issues being raised.

 

What we do know is the execution we got towards the end was poor. Actually there is no blame, just a critique around one of the things that could have been handled better.

 

 

We're back to the supposed "cliffhanger" again are we? Pretty sure this was already discussed and shot down earlier in this thread. If you want to continue that conversation, then I suggest you quote those posts from earlier in this thread on the subject and go from there.

 

Fine, don't blame RJ, as I said then, blame yourself for getting suckered in by Fain's insanity and self proclaimed grandeur because nothing he actually accomplished supports those claims.

 

As I said earlier, if you feel the scene was written poorly, that's fine but if you're arguing that the unceremonious demise of Fain was off or that he deserved some kind of grander, more epic exit, then you're just plain wrong IMO.

Edited by Finnssss

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We're back to the supposed "cliffhanger" again are we? Pretty sure this was already discussed and shot down earlier in this thread

Ermm shot down...care to quote where that happened? Even other people like Barid who didn't think he was going to play any part in the end have agreed on how odd the build up and cliffhanger choice was. Brandon is prone to being overly dramatic with description, we have seen it a number of times in text only to have him retcon or back track in interviews later on.

 

At this point it's like a knee jerk reaction on your part to the slightest critique of Brandon's work to go the opposite direction. It's just strange in a situation as cut and dry as this one. It's pretty basic lit 101.

 

Fine, don't blame RJ, as I said then, blame yourself for getting suckered in by Fain's insanity and self proclaimed grandeur because nothing he actually accomplished supports those claims.

As stated I always have argued that he would not have a large role to play in the end so not sure why you keep bringing up the "suckered" bit. It is incorrect to say he did nothing however, the situation rather more complicated than that.

 

As I said earlier, if you feel the scene was written poorly, that's fine but if you're arguing that the unceremonious demise of Fain was off or that he deserved some kind of grander, more epic exit, then you're just plain wrong IMO.

I've made my position clear.

Edited by Suttree

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I think you're under the mistaken impression that the man has some evil disease (RJ debunked communicability, note). Nor am I talking about powers like his ability to create illusion, use fog or just having some dark miasma. I'm talking about an actual, genuine set of skills that Mordeth possessed prior to attaching himself to Fain. That's real skills, like blacksmithing, leatherwork or politicking. WoG here - RJ pointed out that Mordeth is accustomed to gaining the ears of the mighty, and that's certainly substantiated by the distant past and modern company he got himself into. He was a counselor/advisor; that was his specific skill set. Perrin makes stuff out of metal, Mordeth makes connections with people.

 

One of those connections he made was with Pedron Niall. The direct result of this connection was that despite being half nuts, Niall recognized his counsel as particularly clever and acted on it. Directly substantiated by a passage from the books,

 

TDR Prologue "But he was clever. It was he who helped Niall see the pattern emerging in events."

 

That's what I mean about Fain's build-up. He's given a lousy sentence that outright states what he's doing but it's PRIOR to the actual chaos he directly helped create so the reader isn't likely to pick up on it without falling back. Niall later compared his assistance of Rand the so-called false dragon by creating chaos as something to the affect of letting loose a lion in the streets and then killing the lion. High blasphemy, but all for the good of the cause, really.

 

If I recall, without looking, Niall's actions directly protected Rand (so that Fain could kill him himself, of course), set three nations into chaos, left them open to the Seanchan, and got a Great Captain killed, leaving the Whitecloak armies without worthy or competent leadership.

 

That's just the tip of an iceberg with Fain. Again, direct result of his special entirely human set of skills.

 

 

Again, as I said, there is no question that he was more than capable of conceiving elaborate plans and schemes.

That was never the issue. The issue was actually carrying them out to the end.

His insanity granted him the attention span of a young child with ADD.

 

He thought up and even managed to start a lot of grand schemes. Finish them however...not so much.

The only greatness Fain ever achieved was in his own mind.

Most readers, myself included, were suckered in by his self proclaimed and completely false grandeur.

 

Again, I can only tell you how I felt at his demise. At first, like most, I felt disappointed by it but then I thought about it. Thought about what he ever actually accomplished and it took very little thinking to realise that his demise was proper and fit perfectly.

Even his last thoughts, that he was too powerful and his greatness to vast to end like it did.

 

In the end, don't blame BS for the way Fain met his fate, blame RJ or really, blame yourself for letting RJ fool you in the first place. Cause fool us he most certainly did.

 

 

 

Again, we're in disagreement. Mordeth's schemes accomplished EXACTLY what they were intended to - all except one. The problem is, accomplishing those schemes was completely unable to help him accomplish the goal he wanted most. What was the point of those schemes? To frustrate the Forsaken and to protect Rand from those most likely to seek his harm. Sounds bizarre, but we as the reader know that WAS one of his priorities because nobody but NOBODY gets to kill Rand but Fain. Problem is, he's a manipulator and a politician, not a leader of armies, and as such completely incapable of mustering the actual power he needed to accomplish his primary goal. I'm not even sure we saw a master scheme for how he was supposed to kill Rand other than a slice of the dagger, which while certainly harsh was proven insufficient to the task. That's pretty consistent for Mordeth - he's a big thinker, but all of his schemes while successful in the short run, have only ended in disaster. He only stopped the Shadow long enough to kill himself and everyone within the bounds of Aridhol, and only stopped Rand's enemies long enough to save Rand and kill himself in the process. Par for the course. Fitting, even if his ending seemed far more condensed and meaningless than his other scenes. Maybe that was BS, maybe it was RJ - don't know, don't care, and don't hold it against either.

 

Given the amount of damage Mordeth did directly in the process of successfully achieving his lesser goals, I'd say that puts him levels above most of the Forsaken, and way above everyone else short of the Seanchan.

 

Problem for Shaisam's death in my mind is the same as his life - you have to read way too much between the lines to really enjoy the impact. RJ did tell the story, but he told it in fragments of fragments.

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We're back to the supposed "cliffhanger" again are we? Pretty sure this was already discussed and shot down earlier in this thread

Ermm shot down...care to quote where that happened? Even other people like Barid who didn't think he was going to play any part in the end have agreed on how odd the build up and cliffhanger choice was. Brandon is prone to being overly dramatic with description, we have seen it a number of times in text only to have him retcon or back track in interviews later on.

 

At this point it's like a knee jerk reaction on your part to the slightest critique of Brandon's work to go the opposite direction. It's just strange in a situation as cut and dry as this one. It's pretty basic lit 101.

 

 

I don't know what thread you are reading but I just went back and read the first 4 pages and you most certainly did get shot down on the substance to which you responded (as per usual) by attacking the quality itself.

 

Summed up from those pages...

 

A) There was no grand cliffhanger as you made reference to. You took the ramblings of an insane man at face value.

B) That Fain still had some grand role to play or deserved a grander end, Neither of which is supported by anything other than Fain's own PoV's and thoughts.

C) That no one was arguing about quality, we were only debating the actual substance.

 

I left this thread once because of goal post moving and deflections to quality when your substance arguments hit dead ends.

Prolly time to do so again. 

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So you can't quote it...par for the course. With the bullets above it is strange how off you are with what has actually been posted. Other posters even tried to point out that you didn't understand the premise being made and its clear that hasn't changed as you have misrepresented my position on a consistent basis.

In relation to goal posts moving though, here is my first response in thread:
 

 

 

He was someone Rand thought about 'dealing with' but had other priorities. Fain thought he was a serious threat, but everyone else put him to the back of their minds a bit, so it was quite fitting that it was Mat - who hasn't interacted with him since the Eye of the World I think- that killed him.

 

The problem with this line of thinking is the way Fain was handld by the author. If that was the case why even build him up with evolving powers and end him with a cliff hanger in ToM, if you are only going to kill him off with two pages of screen time in AMoL? It's poorly set up and feels very rushed.

 

 

Now compare that with my post you recently quoted above:

 

 Fain's ending and how it was handled has been broken down by various people from a literary perspective. If someone says for instance that the execution was poor because of the cliffhanger and profound power ramp up we get in in ToM and that his death after less than 2 pages in AMoL seems poorly set up and rushed, countering with "well he was never really important/never accomplished anyhting" doesn't address the criticism in the slightest.

 

 

You may want to go back and read the responses following the last time you mistakenly brought up goal posts as well.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/82489-am-i-the-only-one-who-is-pissed-over-the-anticlimactic-end-to-fains-story/?p=2950684

We agree on one thing though, it's probably best for you to pull out of the thread. There is little point continuing if you try to deny that Brandon ramped up the characters powers and ended him with a cliffhanger in ToM. Btw closing your eyes and plugging your ears and saying "what cliffhanger" isn't a response. One quick hint however, you should really stop focusing solely on Fain's internal thought process and look at the scene as a whole.

Maybe a good place to start would be to explain why the choice made sense to you and then what purpose it served to the narrative?

Edited by Suttree

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There is little point continuing if you try to deny that Brandon ramped up the characters powers and ended him with a cliffhanger in ToM. Btw closing your eyes and plugging your ears and saying "what cliffhanger" isn't a response. One quick hint however, you should really stop focusing solely on Fain's internal thought process and look at the scene as a whole.

Maybe a good place to start would be to explain why the choice made sense to you and then what purpose it served to the narrative?

 

Honestly, despite his inability to support most of his ideas with supporting text or WoG, I'd have to agree with Finnns that it's not a cliffhanger, but in saying so, I also have to agree with you about looking at the scene as a whole, and go further in having you look at the ENTIRE story of Fain & Mordeth as a whole. What I see, when looking at that apparent cliffhanger scene is a character that has DEVOLVED, not evolved, and is slowly turning into Shaisam, the walking equivalent of Mashadar, which while slightly a step up in power, is a serious step down in character. Mordeth, the clever mastermind is dead. Fain, the Shadow's hound is dead. All that is left is a walking killer husk very much like the Black Wind, but more like Mashadar, which is a mindless mass of hate-filled killer fog, with no purpose but to kill.

 

Unlike Mashadar, however, Shaisam is mortal and dies.

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IMO The ending could have worked as it was written if it was modified slightly. What I had thought leading up while reading the book was that the army of Fades would completely overwelm the Light army. Then Fain would crash into the back or side of the fade army with his fog so he could get at the Pit. His final purpose would be to destroy an entire army of fades before being killed by Mat while he attempted to get into the Pit.

 

That almost happened, but not quite and I was never satisfied with how it did turn out.

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There is little point continuing if you try to deny that Brandon ramped up the characters powers and ended him with a cliffhanger in ToM. Btw closing your eyes and plugging your ears and saying "what cliffhanger" isn't a response. One quick hint however, you should really stop focusing solely on Fain's internal thought process and look at the scene as a whole.

Maybe a good place to start would be to explain why the choice made sense to you and then what purpose it served to the narrative?

 

Honestly, despite his inability to support most of his ideas with supporting text or WoG, I'd have to agree with Finnns that it's not a cliffhanger, but in saying so, I also have to agree with you about looking at the scene as a whole, and go further in having you look at the ENTIRE story of Fain & Mordeth as a whole. What I see, when looking at that apparent cliffhanger scene is a character that has DEVOLVED, not evolved, and is slowly turning into Shaisam, the walking equivalent of Mashadar, which while slightly a step up in power, is a serious step down in character. Mordeth, the clever mastermind is dead. Fain, the Shadow's hound is dead. All that is left is a walking killer husk very much like the Black Wind, but more like Mashadar, which is a mindless mass of hate-filled killer fog, with no purpose but to kill.

 

Unlike Mashadar, however, Shaisam is mortal and dies.

 

 

Not a bad way of thinking about it really.

 

One thing though...it's not about me having to support my ideas. I'm not the one saying it was a cliffhanger.

I said very early in this thread that it was not a cliffhanger and that there is nothing to support that it was.

Fain's PoV, his own mad ramblings and self proclaimed grandeur are the only basis for this supposed cliffhanger.

 

I asked a long time ago to support the basis of the cliffhanger premise. To show why we should believe Fain was now capable of carrying out what he thought and said he could.

There was nothing forthcoming.

 

When Fain tried to set up some grand confrontation at Falme, what happened? Where was Fain went it all went down?

When Fain holed up in Far Madding and is confronted by Rand, who can't even channel, how does that work out?

The only time Fain ever got in a landing blow on Rand was during the chaos of a bubble of evil. It wasn't even something Fain planned, it was just him being gifted with an opportunity and taking it.

 

Then we having a signing report where it is asked what would happen if Fain went into the Bore...he would get spit back out was the answer. Hardly an answer that would support Fain's PoV that he could take on or kill the DO.

 

So as I said earlier, please, someone, anyone just tell me where the support for Fain's greatness is coming from?

All I see are Fain's own thoughts and ramblings as the basis. The thoughts and ramblings of an actual insane man. There is no other support.

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As far as supporting your ideas, I'm referring to points in this discussion where you've argued points with me on related issues without book evidence or WoG to back them. The cliffhanger discussion is something I'm weighing in on as a new participant now as I was not involved in most of it.

 

In respect to the ToM scene, I can see why people might consider it a step up in power for Fain. He just wrecked one of the most powerful creatures in the Blight and now the rest of the Worms are scared of him. That's pretty hardcore. It's also not really new, and not a huge accomplishment. While Worms are a serious threat to the Borderlanders, that threat comes from a lack of real competition. There are now Battle Sedai at war and Asha'man on the loose, and most of the more powerful ones could probably kill at least one reasonably well. But as far as making him a credible powerhouse threat to Rand? I guess if Rand couldn't channel and couldn't get away, the tendrils might be a problem.  As it was, the one opportunity Fain got under that circumstance got fouled up. The Dark One itself? Not a chance. A Forsaken? Mashadar already did one in. Redundant.

 

My only real gripe is the lusterlessness of Fain's end, but I don't feel he should have been Captain Killface on the battlefield. He never made himself a real army, and settles for singular acts of extreme violence to establish credibility. The REAL damage that he did was as Mordeth, and as Fain. Not as Shaisam, losing both elements of what made him most dangerous.

 

I think Fain's greatness is a matter of relativity. In the endgame where Rand is death walking facing the cream of the Dark One's crop, Fain is just a wild card and one that was already played to devastating effect early in the game. Back in the beginning when it was just a trio of farm boys running around scared in a world of mysterious threats, Fain was the the known threat, and one who came out of the starting gate hard - the most dangerous threat ever known to the Shadow short of the Dragon Reborn coupled with one of the Shadow's own hounds.

 


Not a bad way of thinking about it really.

 

One thing though...it's not about me having to support my ideas. I'm not the one saying it was a cliffhanger.

I said very early in this thread that it was not a cliffhanger and that there is nothing to support that it was.

Fain's PoV, his own mad ramblings and self proclaimed grandeur are the only basis for this supposed cliffhanger.

 

I asked a long time ago to support the basis of the cliffhanger premise. To show why we should believe Fain was now capable of carrying out what he thought and said he could.

There was nothing forthcoming.

 

When Fain tried to set up some grand confrontation at Falme, what happened? Where was Fain went it all went down?

When Fain holed up in Far Madding and is confronted by Rand, who can't even channel, how does that work out?

The only time Fain ever got in a landing blow on Rand was during the chaos of a bubble of evil. It wasn't even something Fain planned, it was just him being gifted with an opportunity and taking it.

 

Then we having a signing report where it is asked what would happen if Fain went into the Bore...he would get spit back out was the answer. Hardly an answer that would support Fain's PoV that he could take on or kill the DO.

 

So as I said earlier, please, someone, anyone just tell me where the support for Fain's greatness is coming from?

All I see are Fain's own thoughts and ramblings as the basis. The thoughts and ramblings of an actual insane man. There is no other support.

 

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I left this thread once because of goal post moving and deflections to quality when your substance arguments hit dead ends.

Prolly time to do so again.

Given that you show no interest in actually responding to the points people are making, I think you leaving would be a good idea.

 

 

 

There is little point continuing if you try to deny that Brandon ramped up the characters powers and ended him with a cliffhanger in ToM. Btw closing your eyes and plugging your ears and saying "what cliffhanger" isn't a response. One quick hint however, you should really stop focusing solely on Fain's internal thought process and look at the scene as a whole.

 

Maybe a good place to start would be to explain why the choice made sense to you and then what purpose it served to the narrative?

 

Honestly, despite his inability to support most of his ideas with supporting text or WoG, I'd have to agree with Finnns that it's not a cliffhanger, but in saying so, I also have to agree with you about looking at the scene as a whole, and go further in having you look at the ENTIRE story of Fain & Mordeth as a whole. What I see, when looking at that apparent cliffhanger scene is a character that has DEVOLVED, not evolved, and is slowly turning into Shaisam, the walking equivalent of Mashadar, which while slightly a step up in power, is a serious step down in character. Mordeth, the clever mastermind is dead. Fain, the Shadow's hound is dead. All that is left is a walking killer husk very much like the Black Wind, but more like Mashadar, which is a mindless mass of hate-filled killer fog, with no purpose but to kill.

 

Unlike Mashadar, however, Shaisam is mortal and dies.

 

 

Not a bad way of thinking about it really.

 

One thing though...it's not about me having to support my ideas. I'm not the one saying it was a cliffhanger.

I said very early in this thread that it was not a cliffhanger and that there is nothing to support that it was.

Fain's PoV, his own mad ramblings and self proclaimed grandeur are the only basis for this supposed cliffhanger.

 

So what would you call it then? An update? Fine. We see that his power has grown, his sanity has deteriorated still further, and he is going to wait for Rand at SG. So when Rand goes to SG, where is Fain? A legitimate question for the reader to ask given the set up. Not because of any supposed grandeur, but simply because he was last seen heading for SG to wait for Rand, so now Rand has arrived. Whether or not he can succeed in killing Rand is irrelevant. It's not a question of can he do what he plans, it's a question of where is he? When we see him, he's changed a lot from how we last saw him - why were these changes all off screen, why didn't we have another update to show how he has changed? Was he aware of Rand's arrival, but unable to act? Was he aware but unwilling to act, deciding to wait for a better moment? Was he simply unaware that Rand had arrived?

 

I asked a long time ago to support the basis of the cliffhanger premise. To show why we should believe Fain was now capable of carrying out what he thought and said he could.

There was nothing forthcoming.

Because you misunderstood the argument. Why should people bother putting forward arguments to support the points that they are not making?

 

Hardly an answer that would support Fain's PoV that he could take on or kill the DO.

 

So as I said earlier, please, someone, anyone just tell me where the support for Fain's greatness is coming from?

All I see are Fain's own thoughts and ramblings as the basis. The thoughts and ramblings of an actual insane man. There is no other support.

See, the problem is that you're not arguing with people who are saying they were disappointed because Fain wasn't as great as he made himself out to be. When did Suttree claim Fain was going to kill Shai'tan? Again, you're not addressing the points, you're rambling on about nothing. It's as relevant to the points people are making as cheesecake is. Whether or not Fain could kill Rand or Shai'tan or Jones the Milkman is irrelevant. It simply does not matter. While the concept of how Fain dies works - it's more or less what I predicted for him all along - people are saying there was a problem in the execution, in that what we saw in AMOL was too abrupt, lacked build up and didn't follow on that well from where we last saw Fain. You can witter on as much as you like about how crazy Fain was, and all I can say is that "Cheesecake is a sweet dish consisting primarily of a mixture of soft, fresh cheese (not always cream cheese), eggs, and sugar; often on a crust or base made from crushed cookies or graham crackerspastry or sponge cake.%5B1%5D It may be baked or unbaked. Cheesecake is usually sweetened with sugar and may be flavored or topped with fruitwhipped creamnuts, fruit sauce and/or chocolate. Cheesecake can be prepared in many flavors, such as strawberrypumpkin,key lime, or toffee."

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I left this thread once because of goal post moving and deflections to quality when your substance arguments hit dead ends.

Prolly time to do so again.

Given that you show no interest in actually responding to the points people are making, I think you leaving would be a good idea.

 

 

 

There is little point continuing if you try to deny that Brandon ramped up the characters powers and ended him with a cliffhanger in ToM. Btw closing your eyes and plugging your ears and saying "what cliffhanger" isn't a response. One quick hint however, you should really stop focusing solely on Fain's internal thought process and look at the scene as a whole.

 

Maybe a good place to start would be to explain why the choice made sense to you and then what purpose it served to the narrative?

 

Honestly, despite his inability to support most of his ideas with supporting text or WoG, I'd have to agree with Finnns that it's not a cliffhanger, but in saying so, I also have to agree with you about looking at the scene as a whole, and go further in having you look at the ENTIRE story of Fain & Mordeth as a whole. What I see, when looking at that apparent cliffhanger scene is a character that has DEVOLVED, not evolved, and is slowly turning into Shaisam, the walking equivalent of Mashadar, which while slightly a step up in power, is a serious step down in character. Mordeth, the clever mastermind is dead. Fain, the Shadow's hound is dead. All that is left is a walking killer husk very much like the Black Wind, but more like Mashadar, which is a mindless mass of hate-filled killer fog, with no purpose but to kill.

 

Unlike Mashadar, however, Shaisam is mortal and dies.

 

 

Not a bad way of thinking about it really.

 

One thing though...it's not about me having to support my ideas. I'm not the one saying it was a cliffhanger.

I said very early in this thread that it was not a cliffhanger and that there is nothing to support that it was.

Fain's PoV, his own mad ramblings and self proclaimed grandeur are the only basis for this supposed cliffhanger.

 

So what would you call it then? An update? Fine. We see that his power has grown, his sanity has deteriorated still further, and he is going to wait for Rand at SG. So when Rand goes to SG, where is Fain? A legitimate question for the reader to ask given the set up. Not because of any supposed grandeur, but simply because he was last seen heading for SG to wait for Rand, so now Rand has arrived. Whether or not he can succeed in killing Rand is irrelevant. It's not a question of can he do what he plans, it's a question of where is he? When we see him, he's changed a lot from how we last saw him - why were these changes all off screen, why didn't we have another update to show how he has changed? Was he aware of Rand's arrival, but unable to act? Was he aware but unwilling to act, deciding to wait for a better moment? Was he simply unaware that Rand had arrived?

 

I asked a long time ago to support the basis of the cliffhanger premise. To show why we should believe Fain was now capable of carrying out what he thought and said he could.

There was nothing forthcoming.

Because you misunderstood the argument. Why should people bother putting forward arguments to support the points that they are not making?

 

Hardly an answer that would support Fain's PoV that he could take on or kill the DO.

 

So as I said earlier, please, someone, anyone just tell me where the support for Fain's greatness is coming from?

All I see are Fain's own thoughts and ramblings as the basis. The thoughts and ramblings of an actual insane man. There is no other support.

See, the problem is that you're not arguing with people who are saying they were disappointed because Fain wasn't as great as he made himself out to be. When did Suttree claim Fain was going to kill Shai'tan? Again, you're not addressing the points, you're rambling on about nothing. It's as relevant to the points people are making as cheesecake is. Whether or not Fain could kill Rand or Shai'tan or Jones the Milkman is irrelevant. It simply does not matter. While the concept of how Fain dies works - it's more or less what I predicted for him all along - people are saying there was a problem in the execution, in that what we saw in AMOL was too abrupt, lacked build up and didn't follow on that well from where we last saw Fain. You can witter on as much as you like about how crazy Fain was, and all I can say is that "Cheesecake is a sweet dish consisting primarily of a mixture of soft, fresh cheese (not always cream cheese), eggs, and sugar; often on a crust or base made from crushed cookies or graham crackerspastry or sponge cake.%5B1%5D It may be baked or unbaked. Cheesecake is usually sweetened with sugar and may be flavored or topped with fruitwhipped creamnuts, fruit sauce and/or chocolate. Cheesecake can be prepared in many flavors, such as strawberrypumpkin,key lime, or toffee."

 

 

 

Responding to the points?

I did!

In the beginning of this thread, all that's talked about and used as proof for this let down of Fain is this perceived great cliffhanger from ToM.

I said, what cliffhanger? Oh, you mean the ramblings of madman proclaiming his own grandeur, that part?

That he can corrupt a Worm? A Worm is Shadowspawn after all, we already knew that he could dispatch Shadowspawn with ease at that point.

I then said provide any evidence that Fain's bravado in that scene should be taken seriously at that point.

 

The original conversation was about the shortness/abruptness of Fain's demise, not the actual quality of the writing. It was only tried to be turned into a quality discussion when no points could be made to show why Fain deserved anything more.

 

So please, keep your cheesecake to yourself.

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I then said provide any evidence that Fain's bravado in that scene should be taken seriously at that point.

 

I'll provide some, but I'm also going to debunk it.

 

Fain's bravado can be taken seriously because he's not jut Fain, but Mordeth. That makes him the man that is single handedly not only responsible for shutting down the Shadow but making it afraid of him and the city he lived in.  He's responsible for maiming the Prince of Manetheren and likely part of the cause of Manetheren's downfall. He's the guy that makes the most powerful monsters everyone else fears run away, terrified. He is part and parcel of a creature that brought down one of the Forsaken. He successfully protected the Dragon Reborn from enemies mundane and Forsaken. He brought down one Great Captain and is probably responsible for the downfall of two Amyrlins. He turned about three nations into pits of chaos.

 

Dude's got a resume.

 

However, dude's also dead, replaced by Shaisam.

 

He's got nothin' that a couple of scary monsters named Mashadar and Machin Shin don't have, and in some ways far less because you can stick a knife in him and make him die.

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I'm glad Fain didn't play a prominent role in AMoL. He should have died in Far Madding; as he hasn't served any purpose since then. But RJ was fond of his characters and didn't let go of them easily. 

 

As to screen time, we have a whole kingdom burned and destroyed, Kandor, mostly off screen. I guess there was only so much that could be crammed into book 14. 

Edited by Theodril

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I left this thread once because of goal post moving and deflections to quality when your substance arguments hit dead ends.

Prolly time to do so again.

Given that you show no interest in actually responding to the points people are making, I think you leaving would be a good idea.

 

 

 

There is little point continuing if you try to deny that Brandon ramped up the characters powers and ended him with a cliffhanger in ToM. Btw closing your eyes and plugging your ears and saying "what cliffhanger" isn't a response. One quick hint however, you should really stop focusing solely on Fain's internal thought process and look at the scene as a whole.

 

Maybe a good place to start would be to explain why the choice made sense to you and then what purpose it served to the narrative?

 

Honestly, despite his inability to support most of his ideas with supporting text or WoG, I'd have to agree with Finnns that it's not a cliffhanger, but in saying so, I also have to agree with you about looking at the scene as a whole, and go further in having you look at the ENTIRE story of Fain & Mordeth as a whole. What I see, when looking at that apparent cliffhanger scene is a character that has DEVOLVED, not evolved, and is slowly turning into Shaisam, the walking equivalent of Mashadar, which while slightly a step up in power, is a serious step down in character. Mordeth, the clever mastermind is dead. Fain, the Shadow's hound is dead. All that is left is a walking killer husk very much like the Black Wind, but more like Mashadar, which is a mindless mass of hate-filled killer fog, with no purpose but to kill.

 

Unlike Mashadar, however, Shaisam is mortal and dies.

 

 

Not a bad way of thinking about it really.

 

One thing though...it's not about me having to support my ideas. I'm not the one saying it was a cliffhanger.

I said very early in this thread that it was not a cliffhanger and that there is nothing to support that it was.

Fain's PoV, his own mad ramblings and self proclaimed grandeur are the only basis for this supposed cliffhanger.

 

So what would you call it then? An update? Fine. We see that his power has grown, his sanity has deteriorated still further, and he is going to wait for Rand at SG. So when Rand goes to SG, where is Fain? A legitimate question for the reader to ask given the set up. Not because of any supposed grandeur, but simply because he was last seen heading for SG to wait for Rand, so now Rand has arrived. Whether or not he can succeed in killing Rand is irrelevant. It's not a question of can he do what he plans, it's a question of where is he? When we see him, he's changed a lot from how we last saw him - why were these changes all off screen, why didn't we have another update to show how he has changed? Was he aware of Rand's arrival, but unable to act? Was he aware but unwilling to act, deciding to wait for a better moment? Was he simply unaware that Rand had arrived?

 

I asked a long time ago to support the basis of the cliffhanger premise. To show why we should believe Fain was now capable of carrying out what he thought and said he could.

There was nothing forthcoming.

Because you misunderstood the argument. Why should people bother putting forward arguments to support the points that they are not making?

 

Hardly an answer that would support Fain's PoV that he could take on or kill the DO.

 

So as I said earlier, please, someone, anyone just tell me where the support for Fain's greatness is coming from?

All I see are Fain's own thoughts and ramblings as the basis. The thoughts and ramblings of an actual insane man. There is no other support.

See, the problem is that you're not arguing with people who are saying they were disappointed because Fain wasn't as great as he made himself out to be. When did Suttree claim Fain was going to kill Shai'tan? Again, you're not addressing the points, you're rambling on about nothing. It's as relevant to the points people are making as cheesecake is. Whether or not Fain could kill Rand or Shai'tan or Jones the Milkman is irrelevant. It simply does not matter. While the concept of how Fain dies works - it's more or less what I predicted for him all along - people are saying there was a problem in the execution, in that what we saw in AMOL was too abrupt, lacked build up and didn't follow on that well from where we last saw Fain. You can witter on as much as you like about how crazy Fain was, and all I can say is that "Cheesecake is a sweet dish consisting primarily of a mixture of soft, fresh cheese (not always cream cheese), eggs, and sugar; often on a crust or base made from crushed cookies or graham crackerspastry or sponge cake.%5B1%5D It may be baked or unbaked. Cheesecake is usually sweetened with sugar and may be flavored or topped with fruitwhipped creamnuts, fruit sauce and/or chocolate. Cheesecake can be prepared in many flavors, such as strawberrypumpkin,key lime, or toffee."

 

 

 

Responding to the points?

I did!

In the beginning of this thread, all that's talked about and used as proof for this let down of Fain is this perceived great cliffhanger from ToM.

I said, what cliffhanger? Oh, you mean the ramblings of madman proclaiming his own grandeur, that part?

That he can corrupt a Worm? A Worm is Shadowspawn after all, we already knew that he could dispatch Shadowspawn with ease at that point.

I then said provide any evidence that Fain's bravado in that scene should be taken seriously at that point.

 

The original conversation was about the shortness/abruptness of Fain's demise, not the actual quality of the writing. It was only tried to be turned into a quality discussion when no points could be made to show why Fain deserved anything more.

 

So please, keep your cheesecake to yourself.

Fain's bravado is your own strawman, and has nothing to do with the point. This was always about the quality - the abrupt nature of his death is a matter of quality. There was a cliffhanger in ToM - we see his powers have increased, we see he is going to SG to wait for Rand, to wait for the end. So when Rand comes, the question is where is Fain? When we see him he's changed again, into Shaisam. Then he dies. It doesn't follow on from the set up we got in ToM. Rand arriving at SG, and Fain leaping out at him and getting killed just as he enters the bloody place would have been equally abrupt, but would at least have followed on. Fain should not have been changed so completely between appearances - Shaisam came form nothing. A confrontation is set up but not followed through. It was handled badly, and not because Fain was a big deal in his own mind and we were fooled, because we weren't. It was a bungled execution, and poorly set up. In the TV series Angel, a villain who has been around since the beginning and has a very personal rivalry with Angel is killed by someone else - in concept, this is very similar to Fain's role, someone who has a personal rivalry with the main character that ends up being more important to the villain than the hero, because the hero recognises that this villain is nothing in the big picture - but in Angel, this same concept is used in a very satisfying way, dramatically, while Shaisam is tossed in as an afterthought. It's not about Fain's capacity to succeed, and it never was. It's not about Fain being a big deal in his own mind, and it never was. These points are crap you've made up, and you cling to them so you can avoid addressing the arguments that people are making. If you don't want to address the points people make, go away. You're not adding anything.

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Counting the straw men and watching the continuous arguing of points that were never brought up was getting rather amusing however.

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He was someone Rand thought about 'dealing with' but had other priorities. Fain thought he was a serious threat, but everyone else put him to the back of their minds a bit, so it was quite fitting that it was Mat - who hasn't interacted with him since the Eye of the World I think- that killed him.

 

The problem with this line of thinking is the way Fain was handld by the author. If that was the case why even build him up with evolving powers and end him with a cliff hanger in ToM, if you are only going to kill him off with two pages of screen time in AMoL? It's poorly set up and feels very rushed.

 

 

 

 

It's a perfect ending for a character who's been an afterthought for most of the series.

That doesn't really address the issues with how it was set up however. If it was a "perfect ending" care to break down how and  why in relation to the cliffhanger and increased powers we saw in ToM? I know you have tired of the critique around here but I just can't believe you truly think this was handled well.

 

 

 

 

In Sanderson's defence the choice made with Fain in ToM was an excellent one, it brought Fain back to the story and revealed that he had some great and creepy powers, I certaintly found it fascinating and wanted more. The problem was that he failed to employ Fain properly for the finale.

 

But that is the point. One does not use a cliffhanger set up in ToM if the ending is going to be rushed/inconsequential as it was in AMoL. It is poor execution.

 

 

 

Counting the straw men and watching the continuous arguing of points that were never brought up was getting rather amusing however.

 

Uh huh

 

Basically, if you believe it was an actual Cliffhanger then you have a point.

If, like me, you don't believe it an actual Cliffhanger, then you do not have a point.

 

All I do know is that "Eht Slat Meit" has been one of the few that has actually tried to provide some kind of real evidence that it should be considered an actual Cliffhanger. I don't think he's going to convince me of it as I really just don't think there's enough evidence to be had for it, nor do I think he even believes it to be a Cliffhanger now either but at least he made an effort.

Which is far more than you have tried to do. All you keep doing is trying to switch it to a quality discussion without ever proving the actual substance of the posts I just quoted here.

 

Strawman indeed, just not of MY making eh

Edited by Finnssss

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Addressing your questions/arguments:

 

1. "Fain's" status in ToM is not an update or a power-up. It's a picture of a creature in degenerative transition. I'm not sure how that would be painted in psychological terms, but basically both personalities in his head are dead. The WoT equivalent is killing LTT and Rand off while leaving the body alive. At this point he is essentially an unnamed Shaisam.

 

2. The abilities that allowed former incarnations of Shaisam to successfully track and manipulate its way to Rand are of extremely limited usefulness in the Blight and he wouldn't have the mental capacity to use a lot of them anyway. The Waygates are useless - he no longer has quick transit to wait in ambush. His tracking skills require him to wade single-handedly in a MORTAL shell directly to Rand, who is completely surrounded by warring powers. Most of the Trollocs and Fades have been claimed for the Last Battle(s) - he has no army to call on and couldn't lead them properly anyway. Any army that "Mordeth" could have gotten control of is now in battle and he doesn't have Mordeth to call on anyway - Mordeth is dead.

 

What this means - Shaisam has a radar screen and is blindly wandering his way across it.

 

3. "Changed a lot" The last time Fain changed was between WH and ToM. Between ToM and AMoL there is almost no change; he's still a creature of madness, both Fain and Mordeth are dead, and he still has his killer fog powers.

 

4. Where is he? He's the Walking Dude, because he's got no Waygates. No Gates. No Fades. In short, he's taking the long road from whatever Waygate still survives deepest in the Blight and getting there "ahead" of Rand is in question.

 

5. With Fain's death, I'm not even sure he has the Shadow Hound abilities other than the most rudimentary sense. Either way his effectiveness has been severely curtailed.

 

6. "Abrupt death" - Agreed. It felt very lusterless; Fain is on foot, walking his way through armies of Light and Dark and should be wreaking some kind of havoc as he goes. Some sense of that would be nice; and the ambush would not have been sacrificed. Basically we agree on quality, but for different reasons. I don't consider ToM a cliffhanger in any way anymore. It is a statement of a character's transitional process that has been ongoing throughout the books and before the books.

 

7. "Then he dies" - You say it doesn't follow, but I disagree completely on this. It's follows and is completely in sych with Fain's story arch throughout the books. Why? Because if we look at "Fain" as more than just a label, it isn't Fain. It's Mordeth the Counseller. It's Mordeth the Spectre. It's Fain. It's Fain the Shadow's Hound. It's Ordeith the Wormwood, a bitter mix of Fain and Mordeth. It's Jeraal Mordeth the Counsellor again, tracking Rand with Fain's powers and manipulating encounters into being.  Fain and Mordeth die, and it's become Shaisam the Unnamed Mashadar. And in the end, it was all three again, pieces of each, a creature with many identities, all of them dead and still alive, ended at the stroke of its own knife.

 

Looking at Fain as one creature is a mistake.

 

 

 

 

 

So what would you call it then? An update? Fine. We see that his power has grown, his sanity has deteriorated still further, and he is going to wait for Rand at SG. So when Rand goes to SG, where is Fain? A legitimate question for the reader to ask given the set up. Not because of any supposed grandeur, but simply because he was last seen heading for SG to wait for Rand, so now Rand has arrived. Whether or not he can succeed in killing Rand is irrelevant. It's not a question of can he do what he plans, it's a question of where is he? When we see him, he's changed a lot from how we last saw him - why were these changes all off screen, why didn't we have another update to show how he has changed? Was he aware of Rand's arrival, but unable to act? Was he aware but unwilling to act, deciding to wait for a better moment? Was he simply unaware that Rand had arrived?

 

This was always about the quality - the abrupt nature of his death is a matter of quality. There was a cliffhanger in ToM - we see his powers have increased, we see he is going to SG to wait for Rand, to wait for the end. So when Rand comes, the question is where is Fain? When we see him he's changed again, into Shaisam. Then he dies. It doesn't follow on from the set up we got in ToM.

 

 

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All I do know is that "Eht Slat Meit" has been one of the few that has actually tried to provide some kind of real evidence that it should be considered an actual Cliffhanger. I don't think he's going to convince me of it as I really just don't think there's enough evidence to be had for it but at least he's making an effort.

Which is far more than you have tried to do. All you keep doing is trying to switch it to a quality discussion without ever proving the actual substance of the posts I just quoted here.

 

 

Well, no. I don't believe it was a cliffhanger, as I outlined above. I said I looked at the evidence presented and understand why they perceive it as such. I don't believe in dismissing people's perspectives out of hand, yours or theirs and I'm actually in some agreement with you on this. However, you're not providing substance to your arguments and that's a pattern I've noticed from you in this discussion thread because you've argued a several points with me. You say (paraphrased), "No, it isn't so. THIS is the way it is." despite the fact that your point is objectively wrong. Had you supported your point, given it substance with material from the books or WoG, you wouldn't have had that problem. In short, support your claims and make an attempt to understand where your opponent is coming from without simply saying "No" or dismissing them outright without support as if you were the WoG himself.

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