World Without the DO

[Leopoled Boothe]

 

To summarize: Rand shows DO a pattern where the DO no longer exists. Rand is horrified by the world as everyone seems to have lost their personalities. Rand later decides not to kill the DO and instead reseal the DO to avoid this fate.

 

The idea really bugged me when Rand showed DO the pattern and I hated the plot of not killing the dark one. So essentially, every part of life that isn't kittens and babies is brought about by the DO? Every petty fight, disagreement, small vice are all called by the DO? Mat stealing pies from windows: DO made him do it. Rand breaking into barns and stealing eggs: DO made him do it. Gambling, drinking, arguing, fighting: all from the DO.

 

Just lost me when every little thing not puppies and kisses is caused by the DO and wouldn't exist but for the DO.

 

They aren't called by the Dark One. The Dark One isn't pulling people's strings. People are dynamic. They are push and pull. They have virtues and vices. The theme of the Wheel of Time has always been about balance. Men and women, saidin and saidar, and in the end, good and evil. The Dark One isn't some devil sitting on your shoulder, he's the manifestation of the dark part of human kind that's developed into an intelligence. There may be more to the metaphysics than RJ and Brandon ever explained, but I certainly see him as the source of that darkness in us, not a puppeteer or tempter (at least not when his ability to influence the Pattern is cut off). 

 

I'd like to say that I actually think Perrin's arc helps to show that the darkness in us isn't always evil. His struggle with the necessity of violence and his interactions with the Tinkers help to bring this to light. The ability to fight and defend yourself and do violence to others for a good cause wouldn't be possible in this world without the Dark One, either. Without the Dark One, human kind would be like the Tinkers in some respects, except the aversion to violence even in self defense (and other harm) wouldn't even be a choice, it would just be all you could do. It's up to individuals to use the light and the dark within themselves to decide what to do with it, and you can use both to do not just evil things but good things as well. Perrin's struggle with the axe and the hammer is much the same. The axe can only be used to destroy. The hammer, however, is balanced, and can be used for creation or destruction as needed. It's all about the purpose and cause you choose to use it for.

 

There are certainly some things left unexplained that I don't think we'll ever have answers to, and some people may be uncomfortable accepting the role the Dark One truly plays in the Pattern without knowing exactly HOW it works, but I hope this post has been helpful.

 

 

Now this is an idea that I really like.  It could be that the DO and the Creator are not gods or deities but are two forces of nature that, like everything else in the pattern, oppose and balance one another.  Each of these opposing forces pulls or pushed the threads of the pattern (i.e. human lives) toward certain actions.  One force pulls the pattern toward destructive actions such a violence, deception, theft etc, while the other pulls the threads toward more benign actions such as kindness, generosity, mercy etc.  The kicker is that none of the aforementioned actions are inherently good or evil but any of them can be used either for good or for evil.  I think it is easy to understand that actions such as violence, deception and theft can sometimes be justified and even serve the greater good (e.g. violence in self defense, stealing to feed one's starving family etc) however, we must also understand that kindness, generosity and mercy can be used inappropriately and made to serve evil.  For example, too much kindness and generosity can make a person lazy and overly dependent and while all justice should be tempered with mercy, mercy must not completely preclude reprimand for wrong doing lest we reinforce a person's bad behavior.  So just as these actions are neither good nor evil neither are the Creator and The Dark One, they are instead forces within the patten that pull threads toward certain opposing actions.  It is ultimately up to the thread to decide which force to resist and which to give in to.   As best we can tell the force known as The Dark One was working just fine until someone went and bored a hole in the pattern and exposed it to parts of the pattern where it never belonged.  Think of the DO as natural gas flowing through the pipes in your house.  As long as it stays confined within the pipes where it belongs it helps us to warm our homes and cook our food.  However, if you bore a hole into the gas lines the gas will seep into parts of the house where it was never intended to go and will poison the air.  

 

This, of course, begs the question of why these forces of nature have consciousness and to this I must ask, did they always have consciousness?  Well, we have seen that being pulled into the pattern has some interesting effects on the DO in that it makes him mortal.  So perhaps being exposed to the interior of the pattern via the bore also had some interesting effects on this force of nature in that it gave it consciousness.  Suddenly what was once merely a force composed of destructive motivations such as violence, selfishness, deceit etc becomes a thinking being which can only be motivated by these destructive ideals has has the desire to impose them on the pattern; or in other words the bore caused the Dark Force to become the Dark One.  This inherent lack of consciousness in the Dark Force would explain why the DO does not retain memories of previous 3rd ages and can neither remember The Dragons moves nor correct his own mistakes from previous turnings of The Wheel.  So then why does The Creator have consciousness if no one bored a hole into its space?  Well I would say that they someone did, in fact, bore into its space as well as I would assume these two opposing forces exist in same space and form a larger whole just as Saidin and Saidar form a larger whole known as The One Power.  I think by the nature of Rand's battle with the DO it is apparent that what human being perceive as the DO's prison is not a construct that confines him but is more like a wall that keeps him out of the pattern.  Therefore, when the bore was made both the Dark and Light forces were exposed to the patten and gained consciousness becoming the DO and the Creator.  Both beings understood that it was not their purpose to interfere directly with the threads of the pattern because such action would be destructive.  The Creator being the personification of benign motives would choose non interference, while the DO being composed of destructive motivations would seek to destroy the pattern by interfering with the threads.

 

Just a theory on the nature of the DO and the Creator.  Any thoughts?

[MarkDiLillo]

 

Whether or not he is an actual deity is not important though...the important part is that he is literally POWERLESS without his followers.

 

What did the DO actually do without his followers?

 

Taint saidin?  Not really...Lews Therin did this.  The Dark One tainted saidin in the same way as a wall hits someone in the face when they walk into it.  It was a reaction of touching/running into the wall.

 

The only literal thing the DO seemed to actually do himself in the series was to fix the weather in eternal summer and winter.  Yet the mechanisms of how that occurred are so vague and not explained that it's hard to use those as examples.  In fact, I think the only reference we have that the DO actually took a hand himself was Moridin mentioning that his master would be displeased bc he had exerted a lot of effort to fix the seasons in place.

 

This is one of the silliest things I have read.

Has no power my ass.

 

The Blight

Shadar Haran is (RJ quote) "a shadowy projection of the DO himself"

The weather

The bringing back of souls from death

The counter stroke that tainted saidin, called a counter stroke by RJ himself, not just from touching the DO with saidin

The degradation of TAR

The spoiling of food

The inability for anything to grow

The corruption of metals, trees, you name it

The "Bubbles of Evil"

 

Powerless indeed.

 

 

Ok, I suppose I used the wrong wording.  When I said he was powerless I did not mean he literally was useless and could not do anything.  We clearly know that was not the case.  We know he can bring people back from the dead etc.

 

The point though is that the DO was not going to break free and remake the entire world.  The point is that the DO was only empowered by his followers who were doing all of his work for him.  If everyone ignored him and refused to aid him then he would be almost powerless.

 

What did he do on his own to directly influence the world without any human interaction helping him out?  The weather for certain.  And yes, I'll give you the Blight.  But otherwise...bringing people back from the dead?  Only his followers who pledged their souls.  The land and food spoiling and all that was, as Sut pointed out, related to Rand.

 

Even in the world views he showed Rand it is clear that the DO never "broke free" either even when Rand lost.  Can you imagine another scenario or reason how the result would be a "draw" for the world if Rand had turned to the Shadow?  It's the only way that fits.  Neither side can win or lose permanently - just the way Rand couldn't kill the DO (or couldn't do so without losing), the DO couldn't break free and destroy creation without losing.

[ratswot]

There are many plot weaknesses in TWOT and this is one of them. If I was Rand I’d have taken the world without the DO. So what if people were “not quite themselves”. At least there would be peace and nobody would go hungry. That’s a fair price to pay to get rid of evil, don’t you think?

[wotfan4472]

That is like mental lobotomy. I do not know about anyone else, but I would lock the DO away, not kill him, especially with Shaisam dead, which would have allowed the possibility of killing the DO.

[avernite]

That is like mental lobotomy. I do not know about anyone else, but I would lock the DO away, not kill him, especially with Shaisam dead, which would have allowed the possibility of killing the DO.

 

You'd lock all of humanity into an everlasting cycle of pain? Just so people can lie when that seems better?

 

Could you live with your conscience, knowing all starving children, cripples, and abused were YOUR fault? Rand seemingly can, so I'd call him a psychopath (or just stupid)... but maybe I'm missing how the pain is worth it, given that no matter how high men rise through their good, the Wheel enforces that it'll come crashing down...

[Eht Slat Meit]

I could live with it very easily. Why? Because what Rand is realizing is that in order to achieve his vision, he literally has to BE the Dark One and perform an act of global Compulsion, something that's probably very much within his powers by the end of the book.

 

Nowhere in the books, not once, is Compulsion treated as something worthwhile of decent to do to another person, much less so the 13x13 that it more accurately reflects in Rand's eyes. The reason is that it strips people of every last bit of free will. becaise it is not the ability to lie, nor steal, nor cheat, nor murder that gives people the ability to hurt others, but the act of free will. Strip people of every last bit of their will so that they can do none of these things and they're nothing more than robots, an automaton with a preprogrammed set of parameters, be it caring for children, "ruling" a nation that doesn't really need it because people only do what is "right" anyway, and so on.

 

Without free will, you don't need an intellect, because all of your actions are dictated by whatever commands the Maker (Rand here) has dictated.  You might as well be a puppet, propelled by someone else's strings, utterly, absolutely and without regard for whatever person you were before your mind was destroyed by a well-meaning monster.

 

 

 

You'd lock all of humanity into an everlasting cycle of pain? Just so people can lie when that seems better?

 

Could you live with your conscience, knowing all starving children, cripples, and abused were YOUR fault? Rand seemingly can, so I'd call him a psychopath (or just stupid)... but maybe I'm missing how the pain is worth it, given that no matter how high men rise through their good, the Wheel enforces that it'll come crashing down...

 

[ratswot]

 

I could live with it very easily. Why? Because what Rand is realizing is that in order to achieve his vision, he literally has to BE the Dark One and perform an act of global Compulsion, something that's probably very much within his powers by the end of the book.

 

Nowhere in the books, not once, is Compulsion treated as something worthwhile of decent to do to another person, much less so the 13x13 that it more accurately reflects in Rand's eyes. The reason is that it strips people of every last bit of free will. becaise it is not the ability to lie, nor steal, nor cheat, nor murder that gives people the ability to hurt others, but the act of free will. Strip people of every last bit of their will so that they can do none of these things and they're nothing more than robots, an automaton with a preprogrammed set of parameters, be it caring for children, "ruling" a nation that doesn't really need it because people only do what is "right" anyway, and so on.

 

Without free will, you don't need an intellect, because all of your actions are dictated by whatever commands the Maker (Rand here) has dictated.  You might as well be a puppet, propelled by someone else's strings, utterly, absolutely and without regard for whatever person you were before your mind was destroyed by a well-meaning monster.

 

 

True, but nobody goes hungry, is abused or dies. I'll take the lobotomy thanks!

[Eht Slat Meit]

 

 

I could live with it very easily. Why? Because what Rand is realizing is that in order to achieve his vision, he literally has to BE the Dark One and perform an act of global Compulsion, something that's probably very much within his powers by the end of the book.

 

Nowhere in the books, not once, is Compulsion treated as something worthwhile of decent to do to another person, much less so the 13x13 that it more accurately reflects in Rand's eyes. The reason is that it strips people of every last bit of free will. becaise it is not the ability to lie, nor steal, nor cheat, nor murder that gives people the ability to hurt others, but the act of free will. Strip people of every last bit of their will so that they can do none of these things and they're nothing more than robots, an automaton with a preprogrammed set of parameters, be it caring for children, "ruling" a nation that doesn't really need it because people only do what is "right" anyway, and so on.

 

Without free will, you don't need an intellect, because all of your actions are dictated by whatever commands the Maker (Rand here) has dictated.  You might as well be a puppet, propelled by someone else's strings, utterly, absolutely and without regard for whatever person you were before your mind was destroyed by a well-meaning monster.

 

 

True, but nobody goes hungry, is abused or dies. I'll take the lobotomy thanks!

 

 

Incorrect - nobody goes hungry, is abused, or dies *at the hands of other humans on purpose*.

 

He's wouldn't be creating a world full of mini-Creators, he'd be creating a world for of robots, and one that he does not have the capability of micromanaging, meaning that he can't create some super convoluted C++ human programming that will allow people to look beyond their own lack of will and go out and actively do things for other people. Like theft, charity is an act of will.

[ratswot]

 Like theft, charity is an act of will.

 

 

Theft and charity would not be an issue in a world with the DO.

[avernite]

 

I could live with it very easily. Why? Because what Rand is realizing is that in order to achieve his vision, he literally has to BE the Dark One and perform an act of global Compulsion, something that's probably very much within his powers by the end of the book.

 

Nowhere in the books, not once, is Compulsion treated as something worthwhile of decent to do to another person, much less so the 13x13 that it more accurately reflects in Rand's eyes. The reason is that it strips people of every last bit of free will. becaise it is not the ability to lie, nor steal, nor cheat, nor murder that gives people the ability to hurt others, but the act of free will. Strip people of every last bit of their will so that they can do none of these things and they're nothing more than robots, an automaton with a preprogrammed set of parameters, be it caring for children, "ruling" a nation that doesn't really need it because people only do what is "right" anyway, and so on.

 

Without free will, you don't need an intellect, because all of your actions are dictated by whatever commands the Maker (Rand here) has dictated.  You might as well be a puppet, propelled by someone else's strings, utterly, absolutely and without regard for whatever person you were before your mind was destroyed by a well-meaning monster.

 

 

 

You'd lock all of humanity into an everlasting cycle of pain? Just so people can lie when that seems better?

 

Could you live with your conscience, knowing all starving children, cripples, and abused were YOUR fault? Rand seemingly can, so I'd call him a psychopath (or just stupid)... but maybe I'm missing how the pain is worth it, given that no matter how high men rise through their good, the Wheel enforces that it'll come crashing down...

 

 

 

I read the story differently, clearly. As I saw it, people were able to live and let live, to forgive others and do unto others as they would have others do to them. They could choose everything, except to do evil. Rand saw it as a bleak future, for without evil they would not be inspired to really do good, but they could still have chosen to step up and do good or as happened, not do anything special. The choice was there, but by taking suffering Rand took people's drive away (see also artists: some of the greatest artists suffered from all kinds of things, and thus great art was born).

 

Also, as to Compulsion, I am in the Verin camp: compulsion is harsh, but can still do good. This was probably the strongest act of compulsion possible, but also the one with the best possible consequences.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Also, as to Compulsion, I am in the Verin camp: compulsion is harsh, but can still do good. This was probably the strongest act of compulsion possible, but also the one with the best possible consequences.

 

 

The problem is the relativity of "best possible consequences" it's best for results of compulsion, not for individual initiative left untinkered with. I would argue that if the best possible result of such a Compulsion is that a highly competent and intelligent person is turned into a vapid fool capable only of performing "baby-care competitions" - this, in a world post-Battle, requiring leadership in rebuilding....

 

... then the results aren't worth much at all.

 

Yeah, I do consider turning the world into more mindless versions of Paris Hilton a fate worse than starvation and the cycle of pain, particularly when it has no chance of ever getting better. Dark One's victory indeed..

I

[ratswot]

 

Yeah, I do consider turning the world into more mindless versions of Paris Hilton a fate worse than starvation and the cycle of pain, particularly when it has no chance of ever getting better. Dark One's victory indeed..

 

 

Run this by those who are currently starving, being raped and murdered.

[Eht Slat Meit]

 

 

Yeah, I do consider turning the world into more mindless versions of Paris Hilton a fate worse than starvation and the cycle of pain, particularly when it has no chance of ever getting better. Dark One's victory indeed..

 

 

Run this by those who are currently starving, being raped and murdered.

 

And if their response is that all people should be turned into mindless robots in order to stop the rape and the murder from ever happening again, I'd say that their situation has completely clouded their judgment.  Returning evil to those who have done nothing wrong to you over evil you have received from evil people is completely unjustifiable in a fully reasoning and rational mind.

 

Bear in mind also that the person committing this crime... cough service for mankind... is a fundamentally flawed human being without even the supposedly saintly motivations and perfection of ideology that a benevolent deity theoretically possesses.

But it's all "magic" so it should work out perfectly, right?

[KakitaOCU]

As a fun aside to this topic.  Has anyone in this discussion watched Angel?  And if so what was your thoughts on the Ending/Climax of the Season four arc? 

 

It's the same question, it's a question that comes up a LOT.  Where do we draw the line between free-will vs goodness?

[ratswot]

And if their response is that all people should be turned into mindless robots in order to stop the rape and the murder from ever happening again, I'd say that their situation has completely clouded their judgment.  ?

 

 

Just like yours is from not having experienced their suffering?

[Elynde]

 

 

To summarize: Rand shows DO a pattern where the DO no longer exists. Rand is horrified by the world as everyone seems to have lost their personalities. Rand later decides not to kill the DO and instead reseal the DO to avoid this fate.

 

The idea really bugged me when Rand showed DO the pattern and I hated the plot of not killing the dark one. So essentially, every part of life that isn't kittens and babies is brought about by the DO? Every petty fight, disagreement, small vice are all called by the DO? Mat stealing pies from windows: DO made him do it. Rand breaking into barns and stealing eggs: DO made him do it. Gambling, drinking, arguing, fighting: all from the DO.

 

Just lost me when every little thing not puppies and kisses is caused by the DO and wouldn't exist but for the DO.

 

They aren't called by the Dark One. The Dark One isn't pulling people's strings. People are dynamic. They are push and pull. They have virtues and vices. The theme of the Wheel of Time has always been about balance. Men and women, saidin and saidar, and in the end, good and evil. The Dark One isn't some devil sitting on your shoulder, he's the manifestation of the dark part of human kind that's developed into an intelligence. There may be more to the metaphysics than RJ and Brandon ever explained, but I certainly see him as the source of that darkness in us, not a puppeteer or tempter (at least not when his ability to influence the Pattern is cut off). 

 

I'd like to say that I actually think Perrin's arc helps to show that the darkness in us isn't always evil. His struggle with the necessity of violence and his interactions with the Tinkers help to bring this to light. The ability to fight and defend yourself and do violence to others for a good cause wouldn't be possible in this world without the Dark One, either. Without the Dark One, human kind would be like the Tinkers in some respects, except the aversion to violence even in self defense (and other harm) wouldn't even be a choice, it would just be all you could do. It's up to individuals to use the light and the dark within themselves to decide what to do with it, and you can use both to do not just evil things but good things as well. Perrin's struggle with the axe and the hammer is much the same. The axe can only be used to destroy. The hammer, however, is balanced, and can be used for creation or destruction as needed. It's all about the purpose and cause you choose to use it for.

 

There are certainly some things left unexplained that I don't think we'll ever have answers to, and some people may be uncomfortable accepting the role the Dark One truly plays in the Pattern without knowing exactly HOW it works, but I hope this post has been helpful.

 

 

Now this is an idea that I really like.  It could be that the DO and the Creator are not gods or deities but are two forces of nature that, like everything else in the pattern, oppose and balance one another.  Each of these opposing forces pulls or pushed the threads of the pattern (i.e. human lives) toward certain actions.  One force pulls the pattern toward destructive actions such a violence, deception, theft etc, while the other pulls the threads toward more benign actions such as kindness, generosity, mercy etc.  The kicker is that none of the aforementioned actions are inherently good or evil but any of them can be used either for good or for evil.  I think it is easy to understand that actions such as violence, deception and theft can sometimes be justified and even serve the greater good (e.g. violence in self defense, stealing to feed one's starving family etc) however, we must also understand that kindness, generosity and mercy can be used inappropriately and made to serve evil.  For example, too much kindness and generosity can make a person lazy and overly dependent and while all justice should be tempered with mercy, mercy must not completely preclude reprimand for wrong doing lest we reinforce a person's bad behavior.  So just as these actions are neither good nor evil neither are the Creator and The Dark One, they are instead forces within the patten that pull threads toward certain opposing actions.  It is ultimately up to the thread to decide which force to resist and which to give in to.   As best we can tell the force known as The Dark One was working just fine until someone went and bored a hole in the pattern and exposed it to parts of the pattern where it never belonged.  Think of the DO as natural gas flowing through the pipes in your house.  As long as it stays confined within the pipes where it belongs it helps us to warm our homes and cook our food.  However, if you bore a hole into the gas lines the gas will seep into parts of the house where it was never intended to go and will poison the air.  

 

This, of course, begs the question of why these forces of nature have consciousness and to this I must ask, did they always have consciousness?  Well, we have seen that being pulled into the pattern has some interesting effects on the DO in that it makes him mortal.  So perhaps being exposed to the interior of the pattern via the bore also had some interesting effects on this force of nature in that it gave it consciousness.  Suddenly what was once merely a force composed of destructive motivations such as violence, selfishness, deceit etc becomes a thinking being which can only be motivated by these destructive ideals has has the desire to impose them on the pattern; or in other words the bore caused the Dark Force to become the Dark One.  This inherent lack of consciousness in the Dark Force would explain why the DO does not retain memories of previous 3rd ages and can neither remember The Dragons moves nor correct his own mistakes from previous turnings of The Wheel.  So then why does The Creator have consciousness if no one bored a hole into its space?  Well I would say that they someone did, in fact, bore into its space as well as I would assume these two opposing forces exist in same space and form a larger whole just as Saidin and Saidar form a larger whole known as The One Power.  I think by the nature of Rand's battle with the DO it is apparent that what human being perceive as the DO's prison is not a construct that confines him but is more like a wall that keeps him out of the pattern.  Therefore, when the bore was made both the Dark and Light forces were exposed to the patten and gained consciousness becoming the DO and the Creator.  Both beings understood that it was not their purpose to interfere directly with the threads of the pattern because such action would be destructive.  The Creator being the personification of benign motives would choose non interference, while the DO being composed of destructive motivations would seek to destroy the pattern by interfering with the threads.

 

Just a theory on the nature of the DO and the Creator.  Any thoughts?

 

This mirrors my thoughts on the DO and Creator exactly.  Definate +1.

[KakitaOCU]

 

And if their response is that all people should be turned into mindless robots in order to stop the rape and the murder from ever happening again, I'd say that their situation has completely clouded their judgment.  ?

 

 

Just like yours is from not having experienced their suffering?

 

You're making an assumption that the post has not experience such suffering.

 

Not saying they have or have not, but assuming everyone in favor of free will lead a sheltered and happy life is a bit off.

[Mr Ares]

 

 

And if their response is that all people should be turned into mindless robots in order to stop the rape and the murder from ever happening again, I'd say that their situation has completely clouded their judgment.  ?

 

 

Just like yours is from not having experienced their suffering?

 

You're making an assumption that the post has not experience such suffering.

 

Not saying they have or have not, but assuming everyone in favor of free will lead a sheltered and happy life is a bit off.

It's an equally absurd point either way - people can be for or against free will regardless of personal circumstance and suffering. Personally, I'm not convinced by the existence of free will - we certainly have the illusion of it, but illusion and reality are not the same. But if we had a perfect world, with no evil, misery and suffering, and yet we still believed ourselves to have volition, would we really be worse off? If you are a robot either way, is it better to be a happy robot or a suffering robot? If, happy or suffering, you cannot be sure if you're a robot or a human, is the truth really important? Rand's "perfect world" might be devoid of free will, or it might not - can you prove it either way? On the other hand, a world with a guarantee of suffering but no guarantee of free will can hardly be called a better world. What is the downside to the world without Shai'tan? No free will? That's missing something of no actual worth that you can't even be sure you had to begin with and can't even be sure you've lost now even if you did have it.

[KakitaOCU]

That's a whole new philosophical arguement, Mr. Ares.  Once I don't really know that I want to delve into at the moment.  Have you seen season four of angel? :)

[Mr Ares]

That's a whole new philosophical arguement, Mr. Ares.  Once I don't really know that I want to delve into at the moment.  Have you seen season four of angel? :)

Yes.

[KakitaOCU]

So you sided with Jasmine then?  Don't mean that as any sort of flippant answer, just asking.  We may just be on the opposite sides of the fence regarding the importance of our choice vs overall goodness.

 

You may even have a point re: those in the non-free will world won't know what they're missing.  But the issue isn't what they know, it's what I know on this side of the divide.  I'm not willing to give up mine or other's choices and world.

[ratswot]

It's an equally absurd point either way - people can be for or against free will regardless of personal circumstance and suffering. Personally, I'm not convinced by the existence of free will - we certainly have the illusion of it, but illusion and reality are not the same. But if we had a perfect world, with no evil, misery and suffering, and yet we still believed ourselves to have volition, would we really be worse off? If you are a robot either way, is it better to be a happy robot or a suffering robot? If, happy or suffering, you cannot be sure if you're a robot or a human, is the truth really important? Rand's "perfect world" might be devoid of free will, or it might not - can you prove it either way? On the other hand, a world with a guarantee of suffering but no guarantee of free will can hardly be called a better world. What is the downside to the world without Shai'tan? No free will? That's missing something of no actual worth that you can't even be sure you had to begin with and can't even be sure you've lost now even if you did have it.

 

 

Very interesting Mr Ares.

[driedraspberry]

Who in WoT even has free? The characters are all pretty much bound by fate and whatever they do the pattern brings them back where they need to be. Rand and HotH get to live the same lives over and over, make the same mistakes. And they can't refuse, since the pattern weaves them where it wants. Rand really should've killed shai'tan.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Killing the Dark One wouldn't have broken the Pattern. It would have removed the fight against the DO, but the Wheel would turn and the pattern weave as much as it ever has. In fact, it may even exert more control, without the Dark One to interfere and mess up the Pattern. 

 

It is also a misconception that people don't have free will within the Pattern. 99.99% of people are unaffected by the Pattern. Only ta'veren when they pop up forcibly change things, they catch people up in their web, but that is only for a small period of one lifetime out of hundreds, possibly thousands over the ages. 

 

Rand is indeed a special case, but even Rand has free will. His soul has turned to the Shadow in the past, he is free to abandon his duty. The Pattern weaves a temporary fix in another hero. But yes, his is a heavier burden than most. 

 

The ages don't repeat as closely as people seem to think. The basic idea of each age is present. For example, the DO's prison is sealed -> opened again -> war with the DO -> Sealed away again. 

 

But Lews Therin doesn't go mad and kill his family every time, the Taint isn't something that happens every time. Something happens, but it need not be the Taint, nor the result of the Dragon's soul. Similarly, Lanfear's soul isn't doomed to drill the bore every single time. Each turning happens differently. 

 

 

As for the argument between free will and peace: Personally I agree with Rand's choice. However, at the same time, I can certainly understand someone who has been starved, beaten, degraded and otherwise oppressed who would prefer the mindless peace. 

 

But Rand knows more about suffering than most people in the world. He had more reason to want that kind of peace than most, so it's not inconsideration on his part. He knows suffering and pain all too well. 

[KakitaOCU]

Aside from what Barid said I'd also contest the idea that having a set purpose or pull in the pattern denies free will.  In TGS Tam explained it very clearly on one level "You may have to fight, but you get to decide WHY you fight." 

 

It's a topic covered in a lot of places.  Sword of Truth (I know, I know, blasphemy) made a big point that prophecy needed free will to function, being a  yin and yang type of conflict/driving force.  The Recluce Saga makes a VERY strong arguement towards free will despite inevitable ends.  The stance is basically "Yes, everything will fail in the end, every empire dies, every person dies, everything we do will be forgotten, or distored to unrecognizability.  That's why our own choices matter so much.  If the Only thing that's changeable or different is our personal choices and what they mean to us and those we interact with, then those choices become infinately more important."

 

Even in the real world, in a sense, things are predestined.  We are mortal, we will eventually run out of fossil fuels.  Rome fell and someday, somewhere in the future the countries as we know them today will not exist.  But regardless of that, what you do, what you choose, matters immensely, because it's your way of bringing meaning to things, it's your only true influence.