The use of multiple (Sa')Angreal?

[salvierda]

When Rand battles Asmodean for control of the CK access key in Rhudien he reaches through the 'fat-man' angreal, and the access key simultainiously. The (comparatively) small amount of additional power he gained from this allowed him to best Asmodean and gain control of the CK. 

From this it seems that it is possible to reach through multiple angreal and Sa'angreal and add their power yet i dont recall this being used by Rand or any other user of the One Power at any other point. Does anyone know anything about this? is there a limit (similar to circles and linking) to the number one can access simultainiously? or could someone gain massive power simply by carting around a large number of angreal?

leading up to the Last Battle, the CK are destroyed but could Callandor not be used with other male angreal and Sa'angreal to become ridiculously powerful?

I apologize if this became or becomes a bit of a ramble towards the end, but in my mind there are numerous important implications of this particular instance?

[Rhienne]

I have to confess I wasn't entirely sure what was going on this scene.  I found it a bit confusing because it seemed like two channelers were using one sa'angreal, which I didn't think was possible.  And also, the power of even half the CK would surely have been enough for their attacks on each other to completely obliterate Rhuidean rather than just mess it up a bit.

[Arath Faringal]

Both of them accessing the sa'angreal may have had something to do with the fact that the male CK was being accessed remotely through a ter'angreal.  Such a setup might have introduced a flaw which allowed multiple people to draw on it at once.  Now that I think about it, that might actually have been by design, since there were multiple keys to begin with.

[salvierda]

Both of them accessing the sa'angreal may have had something to do with the fact that the male CK was being accessed remotely through a ter'angreal.  Such a setup might have introduced a flaw which allowed multiple people to draw on it at once.  Now that I think about it, that might actually have been by design, since there were multiple keys to begin with.

I agree with your assessment of how two people could acess the same Sa'angreal, but i still think there are far more serious ramifications based on the fact that Rand is reaching through two Power ampllifying devices.

[shortkut]

Don't they daisy chain angrael when they use the bowl of winds?

[jedman67]

Don't they daisy chain angrael when they use the bowl of winds?

no, the strongest channelers wore angreal to maximize the output of the link. For example, elayne was drawing through an angreal when she was linked so the one who was controlling the link used elayne as an angreal as well as the angreal itself.

[Whizbang]

Maybe the effectiveness drops when sharing a link to an angreal. For instance, as Rhienne pointed out, Rhuidean should have been smashed to bits, instead of just shook up some. Maybe the split connection resulted in much less Saidin being channelled.

 

Though it did describe the mountains nearby also being blasted and changed.

 

So, if you do the opposite and draw from multiple angreal, would the same occur? You get less out of each device? Maybe the Fat Man Angreal wasn't a trickle just in comparison to the CK. Maybe if the contrast in power wasn't so great (and he had more experience), Rand would have noticed a drop in output from the angreal.

[salvierda]

Maybe the effectiveness drops when sharing a link to an angreal. For instance, as Rhienne pointed out, Rhuidean should have been smashed to bits, instead of just shook up some. Maybe the split connection resulted in much less Saidin being channelled.

 

Though it did describe the mountains nearby also being blasted and changed.

 

So, if you do the opposite and draw from multiple angreal, would the same occur? You get less out of each device? Maybe the Fat Man Angreal wasn't a trickle just in comparison to the CK. Maybe if the contrast in power wasn't so great (and he had more experience), Rand would have noticed a drop in output from the angreal.

I just feel like this subject is something that should have been adressed in the book. I mean, when using the acess keys one is essentially using a ter'angreal and sa'angreal in combination so it would seem that perhaps using those together is possible? this whole scene seems to say that multiple use is possible.

 

as far as the lack of destruction in Rhudien, i assumed (that as you menioned above Whizbang) each could only draw on half power. yes half of the CK is still a huge amount of power, in my mind the minimal destruction (comparative to what it could have been) was due  to the battle being more mental than physical. they were both occupying the same physical space so it would make little sense for them to direct destructive flows to their location. i envisioned it as a mental battle, a contest of wills for the control of the CK, each straining to draw more than the other and tip the scales in their favour. rand eventually tips the balance using the other angreal as well.

 

Whizbangs idea of reduced efficiency

I see no reason why the eddition of another angreal would reduce the power of the CK. i would think it makes sense for the same rules as linking applying, whereby the power increase is not simply a case of adding the power together, it is less than that, but still stronger than each indivually would be.

 

Jedman67 (sorry im new here dont know how to double quote)

Also as Jedman states, in a circle the leader reaches through the other channeler as if he/she were an angreal. in a circle, the leader can do this multiple times, could this not also work with (Sa')angreal?

 

 

[Rhienne]

as far as the lack of destruction in Rhudien, i assumed (that as you menioned above Whizbang) each could only draw on half power. yes half of the CK is still a huge amount of power, in my mind the minimal destruction (comparative to what it could have been) was due  to the battle being more mental than physical. they were both occupying the same physical space so it would make little sense for them to direct destructive flows to their location. i envisioned it as a mental battle, a contest of wills for the control of the CK, each straining to draw more than the other and tip the scales in their favour. rand eventually tips the balance using the other angreal as well.

If Rand and Asmodean were drawing equally through the CK, i.e. its power was split down the middle between them, how would Rand pulling more saidin through an angreal increase his control over the CK?  Yes, he is holding more CK, but it is drawn through a different source.

[jedman67]

 

as far as the lack of destruction in Rhudien, i assumed (that as you menioned above Whizbang) each could only draw on half power. yes half of the CK is still a huge amount of power, in my mind the minimal destruction (comparative to what it could have been) was due  to the battle being more mental than physical. they were both occupying the same physical space so it would make little sense for them to direct destructive flows to their location. i envisioned it as a mental battle, a contest of wills for the control of the CK, each straining to draw more than the other and tip the scales in their favour. rand eventually tips the balance using the other angreal as well.

If Rand and Asmodean were drawing equally through the CK, i.e. its power was split down the middle between them, how would Rand pulling more saidin through an angreal increase his control over the CK?  Yes, he is holding more CK, but it is drawn through a different source.

It would be a distraction.

[Whizbang]

He used the extra power to sever the black cords tied to Asmo. All of Asmo's power was used to block Rand's other attacks. He had nothing left to block the cutting of the cords (which I am not sure he could have done anyway, since Rand seems to be the only one who has ever seen them (maybe Ishy), and so wouldn't know there was something there to cut).

 

I think it pretty evident that linking to multiple angreal is possible. The question then becomes "Why don't they do that more often/at all?" I guess the answer for Aes Sedai is they forgot it was possible, either because of the breaking or because of the taboo against using angreal too often, and now because they "know" all about angreal, they haven't experimented. For the Forsaken, they are having troubles locating a single angreal to use, let alone many. I am sure it was done in the AoL, but we have precious little insight into that age. Maybe it wasn't done even then, because Angreal were so common. Why use 2 when you can use 1 that is just as strong? The AoL society seemed more driven by skill rather than power anyway. In a world where angreals and full circles are common, a little extra power isn't going to make a difference unless you are trying to fight the DO (hence the CK, and even then LTT thinks differently).

[Elynde]

I think it pretty evident that linking to multiple angreal is possible. The question then becomes "Why don't they do that more often/at all?" I guess the answer for Aes Sedai is they forgot it was possible, either because of the breaking or because of the taboo against using angreal too often, and now because they "know" all about angreal, they haven't experimented. For the Forsaken, they are having troubles locating a single angreal to use, let alone many. I am sure it was done in the AoL, but we have precious little insight into that age. Maybe it wasn't done even then, because Angreal were so common. Why use 2 when you can use 1 that is just as strong? The AoL society seemed more driven by skill rather than power anyway. In a world where angreals and full circles are common, a little extra power isn't going to make a difference unless you are trying to fight the DO (hence the CK, and even then LTT thinks differently).

 

+1 to this sentiment.  Although, I do wonder what effect pulling through multiple angreal would have on the one channeling.  Think of pulling through an angreal akin to looking at text with a magnifying glass, but with the person channeling as the text.  Now, think of the One Power as the sun reflected through that magnifying glass.  How many times can one magnify the Power before the channeler burns?

 

Even if you place the channeler safely behind the magnifying glass, there would be trouble eventually.  How much of the One Power can be channeled in one concentrated effort before the pattern itself burns?

 

Personally, I think what Rand did by pulling through the CK and the angreal was incredibly dangerous.  Even if the risk is a little from column A and B theory wise, the outcome could have been dire.  Fray the pattern worse than balefire or burn out the Dragon.  Bad news for Randland.

[jedman67]

It wasn't Essence of Saidin that allowed LTT to seal the DO (was LTT ta'veren?) he was able to safely handle more than enough Power to seal the Bore on his own. The CK were designed not to seal the Bore (which was considered to be dangerous) but to essentially ward the congruence of the Bore and the Pattern. 

 

There was no counter-stroke; when the seals were placed (i believe the 100 Companions were merely bodyguards to keep LTT alive) he had to channel 'something' - perhaps another type of ward - through the cuenduiliar seals to the Bore and the DO himself (and back to the discs to finish the Patch). 

The taint, and the backlash, was simply a result of saidin mixing with the TP - explosions and a permanent contamination of the true source.

[jedman67]

I pictured an angreal or sa'angreal as a multiplier, if you will. A magnifier of the persons ability to channel saidin or saidar, via a tube/tunnel to the True Source.

A weak angreal can nearly double, perhaps quadruple, a persons native channeling ability. A strong angreal - such as Moiraines bracelet is "nearly" a sa'angreal because it is close to the threshold multiplier. If a sa'angreal needs to be a x10, then the bracelet would be an 8 or 9, and Vora's Sa'angreal would be a x20, the choedan kal would be x100, or the very physical limit of a sa'angreal, and the very physical limit that even the strongest channeler could handle.

 

 

I believe the limit on the strength of an angreal or sa'angreal comes in part of from the strength and ability of the one whose power creates the angreal. For example, if Nynaeve makes an ordinary angreal, it would be at least a x6, or perhaps a x8. If Siuan made an ordinary angreal, it would most likely be no stronger than a x2

[Whizbang]

It could also be similar to splitting flows. The Wonder Girls are often praised for their ability to split their flows many ways and weave multiple things at once. This seems to be fairly uncommon. Most channelers can only do 1 or 2 things at the same time. I would imagine the same goes for angreal linking. Most can only link to one at a time. Dividing their will to multiple angreal and then being able to then split your will even further to do anything with the power is probably beyond most. Rand can do it because he is awesome. The forsaken can probably do it because they are also awesome, in their own way. Probably the wonder girls and a select few other modern day channelers could do it if they tried, but they've all been too set in tradition or too busy surviving to experiment with angreal (which are all locked in the WT anyway).