Moiraine, Nynaeve, and Loial

[Wheel of Thyme]

 

 

It was never said moiraine would save the world, just that rand would fail without her

 

The Aelfinn's prophecy was that Mat must 'give up half the light of the world to save the world'.

 

Yup, that's the quote I was referring to. Yet I don't remember her actually doing anything really vital that another person wouldn't have been able to do. Am I wrong?

 

Yes. As the Vulcan saying goes "Only Nixon could go to China". <grins>. Egwene and Rand would not have listened to or respected anyone else BUT Moirane saying what she did. Anyone else would have been told to shut up, or been ignored as prattle.

[GenPender]

Good original post.  I've noted a similar trend, although not specifically with regard to Nynaeve, on past threads.  In those posts, I've argued that RJ's Cast of Thousands was a strength of the series that allowed for a lot of depth and interesting crossover encounters, it always hampered his ability to give all (or even the primary) characters fulfilling story arcs throughout the series.

 

Nynaeve is a very good example.  Throughout the first half of the series, she's undoubtedly a central character, co-hosting, if not leading (and I would argue she was the dominant personality over Elayne) the girls' arcs in TGH and TDR, and then Tanchico and the Bowl.  Somewhere around Book 9, however, she loses her agency.  It's not that being wtih Rand is a bad thing--on the contrary, I think their interactions are some of the strongest in the second half of the series.  The problem is that she doesn't do enough in that role.  Had she played an integral part in pushing him to the Veins of Gold resolution, it would have been worthwhile.  Instead, that was accomplished by Rand, pretty much by himself, without her.

 

Given the love Nynaeve consistently demonstrated (if in her own way) for the Emond's Fielders, she could have been set up as an effective foil for Darth Rand over those few books.  Instead, she was reduced to his adjutant.  Is it one of the biggest problems in the series?  No, but there was a lot of wasted potential there.

[Suttree]

Had she played an integral part in pushing him to the Veins of Gold resolution, it would have been worthwhile. Instead, that was accomplished by Rand, pretty much by himself, without her.

 

Well Cadsuane had a pretty significant role there. Not sure if Nynaeve could have done the same but curious as to how you see that one playing out?

[GenPender]

Well, in driving him to Dragonmount, yes, to an extent.  However, what I meant (and probably didn't articulate very well) was the actual decision-making process/internal monologue that Rand experienced at that point.  As I recall, he thought over a couple of things Tam had said, asked himself "Why do I fight?" and then landed on the "So we can love again" thing without a whole lot of additional reasoning.  While I thought VoG was a good scene, it didn't resonate quite as much for me as it could have because the "love" theory was couched in general terms rather than those specific to the WoT and Rand's experience.  I think if he had reflected on why other people he knew fought, and pulled up examples of the other characters acting out of love, it would have been more effective.

 

Nynaeve, thanks to both her character and proximity to Rand, would have provided a nice source for such reflections.  There's one instance in TGS (I believe) in which he tells her something to the effect of, "Thank you for caring for my people," which would have been a nice starting point, but it's never brought up again (again, as I recall).  I think if she had engaged in more of that throughout her time with Rand and pushed him harder to do the same, it could have been tied in on Dragonmount and given her more of a purpose over the course of that arc.

[jack of shadows]

@genpender

"you care for my people,thank you".

this is from a conversation between rand and nynaeve in the city of tear,after the veins of gold epiphany,

(from towers of midnight)

[Rhienne]

Well, in driving him to Dragonmount, yes, to an extent.  However, what I meant (and probably didn't articulate very well) was the actual decision-making process/internal monologue that Rand experienced at that point.  As I recall, he thought over a couple of things Tam had said, asked himself "Why do I fight?" and then landed on the "So we can love again" thing without a whole lot of additional reasoning.  While I thought VoG was a good scene, it didn't resonate quite as much for me as it could have because the "love" theory was couched in general terms rather than those specific to the WoT and Rand's experience.  I think if he had reflected on why other people he knew fought, and pulled up examples of the other characters acting out of love, it would have been more effective.

 

Nynaeve, thanks to both her character and proximity to Rand, would have provided a nice source for such reflections.  There's one instance in TGS (I believe) in which he tells her something to the effect of, "Thank you for caring for my people," which would have been a nice starting point, but it's never brought up again (again, as I recall).  I think if she had engaged in more of that throughout her time with Rand and pushed him harder to do the same, it could have been tied in on Dragonmount and given her more of a purpose over the course of that arc.

I really like this suggestion, especially as it would give an extra dimension to Nynaeve's role as the healer of the series, and could really have been developed into an arc.  However, I do think an issue with this might be that it would 'steal' the roles of other characters, particularly Cadsuane who makes it her mission to teach Rand laughter and tears, and Min, who doesn't have much of an arc in the series beyond researching the prophecies and helping Rand keep his humanity.  I do think it would have been good to see more Rand-Nynaeve interaction scenes focusing on this area, as Nynaeve ended up as one of the very few people Rand trusted completely (and probably the only AS, Elayne is borderline).

[clu7ch]

I'm getting a little aggravated in the people hating nyn, moiraine, and so on for their lack of PoV scenes in Amol, or the fact that they didn't do bad assed things. 

 

Lets lay it down.

Nyn and moiraine saved the world, and are owed as much gratitude as Rand, and Min for discovering the flaw. It's as simple as that. No other character, not Mat, Perrin, Olver, Egwene, or anyone, did something as monumental as what the three of them did at SG. 

If you want to be pissed about something, why SH got no more than a 'oops, yeah, that was him' moment is a better choice. 

 

Ok, maybe what Egwene did was close to it in importance. 

 

We don't need PoV to know the importance of an event, ya'll just want to complain about something. 

 

Why wasn't there any good PoV though? I look at it this way: The Wheel of Time as a whole is very in depth and character oriented, it's in their faces, showing us their hopes, dreams, feelings, and so on. It's extremely descriptive in a certain way. Amol was descriptive in a different way. In an effort to show the strife of war, the camera lens is zoomed out, so to speak. It's more about tactics, and an over-all effect. The last battle is something to monumental to bring down to a personal level - without screwing some characters out of face time, and thus pissing fans off. 

 

Zoomed out is how i felt it was portrayed, and I think it's appropriate. 

 

It would have been worse if GRRM had done it. A lot worse. Instead of a few off camera deaths, we'd have all of them off screen. 

 

I honestly feel like I'm the only one who doesn't differentiate between RJ's and BS's work on this series. It's the wheel of time. 

[Rhienne]

I know the topic has changed slightly, but my question about Nynaeve, Moiraine, and Loial wasn't a complaint, and it wasn't aimed at AMoL in isolation.  I was just curious about whether anyone had any insight into why very main (Nynaeve), and main characters (Moiraine and Loial) dropped into the background in the second half of the series.  I agree that Nynaeve and Moiraine did important things at the LB, but I think it is a legitimate complaint that has been raised in this thread that there are very few Nynaeve POVs compared to the other main characters (Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Elayne).

[Mr Ares]

I'm getting a little aggravated in the people hating nyn, moiraine, and so on for their lack of PoV scenes in Amol, or the fact that they didn't do bad assed things. 

 

Lets lay it down.

Nyn and moiraine saved the world, and are owed as much gratitude as Rand, and Min for discovering the flaw. It's as simple as that. No other character, not Mat, Perrin, Olver, Egwene, or anyone, did something as monumental as what the three of them did at SG. 

If you want to be pissed about something, why SH got no more than a 'oops, yeah, that was him' moment is a better choice. 

 

Ok, maybe what Egwene did was close to it in importance. 

 

We don't need PoV to know the importance of an event, ya'll just want to complain about something.

Yes, there is no need to complain that previously important characters, popular characters at that, have their roles cut back, are given no screen time, and have the story undercut the importance of the stuff they do do by treating it in an off hand manner. If what they did is so important, doesn't it deserve to be treated as such?

Why wasn't there any good PoV though? I look at it this way: The Wheel of Time as a whole is very in depth and character oriented, it's in their faces, showing us their hopes, dreams, feelings, and so on. It's extremely descriptive in a certain way. Amol was descriptive in a different way. In an effort to show the strife of war, the camera lens is zoomed out, so to speak. It's more about tactics, and an over-all effect. The last battle is something to monumental to bring down to a personal level - without screwing some characters out of face time, and thus pissing fans off.

Except the battle isn't handled well from a tactical, big picture perspective.

t would have been worse if GRRM had done it. A lot worse. Instead of a few off camera deaths, we'd have all of them off screen. 

No. No it wouldn't. There is a lot more to GRRM than just his killing of characters (I wish people weren't as inclined to overstate the fatality level in his books - other fantasy authors significantly eclipse him in terms of body count).

[clu7ch]

I apologize if I sounded negative towards him, I'm just stating that his style of writing isn't similar at all with Robert Jordan's, and thus, the wheel of time. I love Asoiaf for what it is, it's way more of a political series, and doesn't incorporate as much nitty gritty as WoT does, in my opinion. I feel that GRRM's style would have clashed with RJ's established style more than Brandon's. 

 

I do however disagree with your points on the last battle. I think it was handled perfectly. By that I mean imperfect, as it should be. It's not supposed to be clear cut, easy, or clean. It's supposed to be hard fought, confusing, it's supposed to make you doubt. The DO's forces aimed to destroy the best military minds in the forces of the light. I think it was beautiful. 

 

Of course, that is entirely opinion based. SO no harm in disagreeing with me on that. 

[Suttree]

But aside from a few scenes it wasn't handled beautifully. The writing was blunt, the strategies often inane, and a huge percentage of channelers were simply dropped from the story which fundamentally changed the nature of the last battle. There were a large number of flat out mistakes. Meanwhile Shara basically eclipsed the shadow as the main threat, while Demandred stomped around and twirled his mustache muhahaing like a b-move villain. Add to that the trolloc fodder/battle porn which was repeated endlessly and no, there really is nothing "perfect" about it.

[balefireruinssteaks]

Oh Lord.  First everyone gets annoyed because we have waited 20 years for the end of this series, and then when it comes out, everyone is like "There weren't enough POVs from all of my favourite characters"

 

Honey...if Brandon or RJ had to write out POV from all the main characters and sub characters, the Wheel of Time series would be 30 books long.  It isn't "someone has a deadline for publishing, so we just sacrificed the story" - it's trying to figure out how to close the story as best as possible.  Sometimes you just can't write out what every single character is thinking or feeling during a monumental thing like Tarmon Gaidon.

 

Nynaeve's character was about power and using that power for good, not being corrupted by it or using it to gain position.  Aes Sedai, unlike the other channelers of the world, based their authority and position on their strength in the Power - the Aiel, the Windfinders, the Kin...everyone else based their authority on the wisdom and experience that comes with age.  Nynaeve had purposed in her heart to protect the boys (and Egwene) from Emonds Field from what lay out there in the world, and to marry Lan.  She did those things.  She wanted to Heal, and she took that very far, and probably will continue to find marvels in the areas of channeling and Healing in the future.  She did all that she was meant to do, and in the end she was with Rand helping him fight the Dark One.  She'll probably go down in the history of the White Tower as a legendary Yellow Sister.

 

Loial and Moiraine weren't pivotal characters by the time Memory of Light came out.  I liked the Ogier characters, they provided a lot of neat perspective and backstory as well as comical moments.  The whole interaction with Elder Haman and Loial's mother was hysterical to me.  "By the Tree and stillness, Elder Haman I meant no offense!" "Haaaaa-RUMPH!" - haha, that was excellent writing.

 

So yes, it would be great if we all lived in Randland and were able to channel or lead nations or whatever it is that we wish we could do in this fantasy series, but at some point you have to just accept that this was a REALLY good series to read and the authors did the best with the characters that they could with what they were working with.  Brandon only had the notes and the people who worked with RJ to go on, and then he had to just be creative and try to work within the realms of his own talent.  RJ provided a really good foundation and awesome story with awesome characters for him to work with.  If we are left a little disappointed because of one or two things...well...not everything is perfect.

 

I enjoyed this series immensely, even with the little flaws.

[Suttree]

Honey...if Brandon or RJ had to write out POV from all the main characters and sub characters, the Wheel of Time series would be 30 books long...

This line of thinking has been shot down numerous times. There was more than enough time, especially considering the split, to properly address certain characters. The last three books had a huge amount of filler and bloat and space was not used wisely.

It isn't "someone has a deadline for publishing, so we just sacrificed the story" - it's trying to figure out how to close the story as best as possible. 

Actually we know for a fact it was in certain places. To use just one example, although Brandon and Team Jordan thought the BT storyline fit best in ToM they ran up against deadlines and so pushed it to AMoL despite it not being best for the story.

[clu7ch]

You need to relax and stop shooting down people for having a differing opinion. I enjoyed the books and am grateful that the series was finished at all. 

[Suttree]

Heh...no harm in disagreeing eh? Need I point out that you started things off by being "aggravated"(calm down indeed) and "shooting down" people who were unhappy about how Nyn and Moir were handled.

 

This is a discussion. You said you thought the LB was handled perfectly. I offered an opinion and gave detailed reasons for why it wasn't. Just as Ares did to your original post. At that point one would generally counter with evidence to back your view. Your enjoyment says very little in relation to the actual quality of the work.

 

Also can't believe I missed this earlier:

 

I apologize if I sounded negative towards him, I'm just stating that his style of writing isn't similar at all with Robert Jordan's, and thus, the wheel of time.

Are you trying to say that Brandon's style is similar? Not sure what your point is with the above?

[Aulduron]

I'd have like to seen Nynaeve lead the borderlanders into the Gap, until it was time to help Rand, but other than that, there wasn't much for her to do. Moirane advised, as she always has. She's too weak in the power now to have done much else. Loial brought the Ogier to fight, he fought with them, and wrote his book. I'm not sure what else there was for any of them to do.

[Mr Ares]

I apologize if I sounded negative towards him, I'm just stating that his style of writing isn't similar at all with Robert Jordan's, and thus, the wheel of time. I love Asoiaf for what it is, it's way more of a political series, and doesn't incorporate as much nitty gritty as WoT does, in my opinion. I feel that GRRM's style would have clashed with RJ's established style more than Brandon's. 

I think in many ways, GRRM would have benefited this series to a greater extent than Brandon did. Consider this: he's a better prose writer, a better character writer, and has more experience managing a large cast than Brandon. He has also shown a greater willingness to undergo extensive rewrites to get the book to the standard he wants, rather than rushing things out. He has experience of writing large scale battles, and his experience with political conflict would likely have benefited story arcs like the WT power struggle and the FoM, and other conflicts which were political in nature. In other words, in key areas he is bringing to bear certain skills that Brandon lacks and that RJ possessed.

I do however disagree with your points on the last battle. I think it was handled perfectly. By that I mean imperfect, as it should be. It's not supposed to be clear cut, easy, or clean. It's supposed to be hard fought, confusing, it's supposed to make you doubt. The DO's forces aimed to destroy the best military minds in the forces of the light. I think it was beautiful. 

 

Of course, that is entirely opinion based. SO no harm in disagreeing with me on that. 

RJ was very good at fog of war and confusion, writing from the POVs of people without the full story. He also had a better grasp of tactics and strategy. He allowed you to see what was going on, but also to show you that the characters weren't omniscient. What did Brandon bring to the table? Large numbers of channelers AWOL for no apparent reason, nonsensical tactics and strategy, vagueness from people who should be best able to to say what is going on, Demandred hamming things up (if they make a film, only Brian Blessed will do in the role). It did make me doubt, I'll give you that - it made me doubt the wisdom of a 200 page chapter, it made me doubt whether they needed all these words to tell this story, it made me doubt if Brandon was really the man for the job. But more than doubt, it made me bored. That's not a good sign.

 

Oh Lord.  First everyone gets annoyed because we have waited 20 years for the end of this series, and then when it comes out, everyone is like "There weren't enough POVs from all of my favourite characters"

 

Honey...if Brandon or RJ had to write out POV from all the main characters and sub characters, the Wheel of Time series would be 30 books long.  It isn't "someone has a deadline for publishing, so we just sacrificed the story" - it's trying to figure out how to close the story as best as possible.  Sometimes you just can't write out what every single character is thinking or feeling during a monumental thing like Tarmon Gaidon.

There are many books out there that are longer than AMOL. There was much in AMOL that could have been cut. The things that weren't in there, the POVs we didn't get to see, the lack of closure, the mishandling of various characters, the way big moments left people feeling underwhelmed, these are not problems that can be swept under the rug with a lie like "it would be 30 books long". They did not close the story as best as possible. That is disappointing.

So yes, it would be great if we all lived in Randland and were able to channel or lead nations or whatever it is that we wish we could do in this fantasy series, but at some point you have to just accept that this was a REALLY good series to read and the authors did the best with the characters that they could with what they were working with.  Brandon only had the notes and the people who worked with RJ to go on, and then he had to just be creative and try to work within the realms of his own talent.  RJ provided a really good foundation and awesome story with awesome characters for him to work with.  If we are left a little disappointed because of one or two things...well...not everything is perfect.

 

I enjoyed this series immensely, even with the little flaws.

Brandon was not in an easy position, no-one's going to deny that. I've always felt that to be overly tolerant of flaws and failures merely encourages further flaws and failures, so I'm not going to give him a pass despite the difficulty of finishing up WoT. He can do better, but if people keep making excuses for him he will never do better.

 

You need to relax and stop shooting down people for having a differing opinion. I enjoyed the books and am grateful that the series was finished at all. 

People simply saying that they liked or disliked something doesn't tend to lead to interesting conversations. Examining what people liked and why can lead to a reassessment of ones own views and grant a deeper appreciation. Pointing out the flaws in a different opinion can lead to a defence of that opinion, which can lead the way to a more interesting dicsussion. So to stop shooting people down when they have a different opinion is the last thing that should be done - the shooting down of opinions should be encouraged, to encourage better opinions and better conversations.

[A Duke]

 

So yes, it would be great if we all lived in Randland and were able to channel or lead nations or whatever it is that we wish we could do in this fantasy series, but at some point you have to just accept that this was a REALLY good series to read and the authors did the best with the characters that they could with what they were working with.  Brandon only had the notes and the people who worked with RJ to go on, and then he had to just be creative and try to work within the realms of his own talent.  RJ provided a really good foundation and awesome story with awesome characters for him to work with.  If we are left a little disappointed because of one or two things...well...not everything is perfect.

 

I enjoyed this series immensely, even with the little flaws.

 

Brandon was not in an easy position, no-one's going to deny that. I've always felt that to be overly tolerant of flaws and failures merely encourages further flaws and failures, so I'm not going to give him a pass despite the difficulty of finishing up WoT. He can do better, but if people keep making excuses for him he will never do better.

 

The problem is that Brandon's personal position encourages flaws. Let me clarify, I am not talking about the generic position he had to occupy as the writer to finish WoT, but his position in his own career. The lower prose, the raw plots that cut to the chase and the illogical tactics/strategies (usually not such a big issue unless considering the theme of the last book), all those could have been improved given more time. However, and I am assuming here, for a young writer it goes against his nature to spend a long time polishing an ending for someone else in a foreign intricate world struggling to understand someone else's characters. All this while you could be writing your own fantasy world, with characters and plots you feel more comfortable with, to be free developing a world as you please and not by some strict guidelines. While I guess it's true for every writer it is more so for a young one who has never had the opportunity to do so on a large scope. A young writer might want to save good plot ideas for his own novels not "wasting" them on something he could never bring to perfection nor get full credit for.

 

Though I can't be sure any of this applies in this case I think it does. That helps me to understand to some extent how could those books be published, and why were they published so quickly while their many flaws are obvious. I doubt that Brandon didn't notice those as well.

This is not to say that I forgive the flaws, just that I am shifting the blame a bit to the editors and team Jordan's side, I guess. they should have kept him in check and perhaps used some fans to help with editing, or even coming up with ideas. I surely enjoyed reading some great theories, utilizing the minds behind them could have been good, and considering the original author is no more in my mind it would have been justified.

Imagine a topic pops up on the forums a year ago asking for people to evaluate tactics and strategies with the use of massive amounts of channelers (of course without giving out any notion it would affect anything or be read at all). No need to use exact ideas, however a discussion among many educated people can lead to a broad idea of what can be done and what can't be done in such a situation.

personally for AMoL I would have gone farther and tried to find someone who has some real world experience in the matter and is a WoT fan (maybe it was done?).

 

At first when I saw the book release deadlines I was excited. Getting a book in a year? Awesome! Then I realized it's going to come at a price, and I would have rather not pay it, and wait longer instead.

[Suttree]

 

 

So yes, it would be great if we all lived in Randland and were able to channel or lead nations or whatever it is that we wish we could do in this fantasy series, but at some point you have to just accept that this was a REALLY good series to read and the authors did the best with the characters that they could with what they were working with.  Brandon only had the notes and the people who worked with RJ to go on, and then he had to just be creative and try to work within the realms of his own talent.  RJ provided a really good foundation and awesome story with awesome characters for him to work with.  If we are left a little disappointed because of one or two things...well...not everything is perfect.

 

I enjoyed this series immensely, even with the little flaws.

 

Brandon was not in an easy position, no-one's going to deny that. I've always felt that to be overly tolerant of flaws and failures merely encourages further flaws and failures, so I'm not going to give him a pass despite the difficulty of finishing up WoT. He can do better, but if people keep making excuses for him he will never do better.

 

The problem is that Brandon's personal position encourages flaws. Let me clarify, I am not talking about the generic position he had to occupy as the writer to finish WoT, but his position in his own career. The lower prose, the raw plots that cut to the chase and the illogical tactics/strategies (usually not such a big issue unless considering the theme of the last book), all those could have been improved given more time. However, and I am assuming here, for a young writer it goes against his nature to spend a long time polishing an ending for someone else in a foreign intricate world struggling to understand someone else's characters. All this while you could be writing your own fantasy world, with characters and plots you feel more comfortable with, to be free developing a world as you please and not by some strict guidelines. While I guess it's true for every writer it is more so for a young one who has never had the opportunity to do so on a large scope. A young writer might want to save good plot ideas for his own novels not "wasting" them on something he could never bring to perfection nor get full credit for.

 

Though I can't be sure any of this applies in this case I think it does. That helps me to understand to some extent how could those books be published, and why were they published so quickly while their many flaws are obvious. I doubt that Brandon didn't notice those as well.

This is not to say that I forgive the flaws, just that I am shifting the blame a bit to the editors and team Jordan's side, I guess. they should have kept him in check and perhaps used some fans to help with editing, or even coming up with ideas. I surely enjoyed reading some great theories, utilizing the minds behind them could have been good, and considering the original author is no more in my mind it would have been justified.

Imagine a topic pops up on the forums a year ago asking for people to evaluate tactics and strategies with the use of massive amounts of channelers (of course without giving out any notion it would affect anything or be read at all). No need to use exact ideas, however a discussion among many educated people can lead to a broad idea of what can be done and what can't be done in such a situation.

personally for AMoL I would have gone farther and tried to find someone who has some real world experience in the matter and is a WoT fan (maybe it was done?).

 

At first when I saw the book release deadlines I was excited. Getting a book in a year? Awesome! Then I realized it's going to come at a price, and I would have rather not pay it, and wait longer instead.

 The books were far too rushed and yes many of the problems apply to Team Jordan as well as Brandon. The crazy thing is during that rushed process Brandon was also writing his own first book in the Stormlight Archive, Alloy of Law etc. It has been said by people who have a inside look on the process that Brandon loves "slapping words down on the page"(his own words) and creating...drafting and polishing however not so much. It is something he will have to improve upon if he wishes to grow as an author, I don't think he will view his time on the WoT as having helped him with that growth.

[A Duke]

I agree, though I can empathize lacking motivation to do the hard work in someone else's universe. In my mind I imagine Brandon forcing himself to work on WoT, instead of moving his own Stormlight series, while writing the two later books. Though I lack evidence, that's the feeling I get in some story lines. That can't be too good for a book

[avernite]

 

I apologize if I sounded negative towards him, I'm just stating that his style of writing isn't similar at all with Robert Jordan's, and thus, the wheel of time. I love Asoiaf for what it is, it's way more of a political series, and doesn't incorporate as much nitty gritty as WoT does, in my opinion. I feel that GRRM's style would have clashed with RJ's established style more than Brandon's. 

I think in many ways, GRRM would have benefited this series to a greater extent than Brandon did. Consider this: he's a better prose writer, a better character writer, and has more experience managing a large cast than Brandon. He has also shown a greater willingness to undergo extensive rewrites to get the book to the standard he wants, rather than rushing things out. He has experience of writing large scale battles, and his experience with political conflict would likely have benefited story arcs like the WT power struggle and the FoM, and other conflicts which were political in nature. In other words, in key areas he is bringing to bear certain skills that Brandon lacks and that RJ possessed.

 

Maybe so, but he's also fairly well known for being unable to finish his own books. Imagine if he had to add more!

[Suttree]

 

 

I apologize if I sounded negative towards him, I'm just stating that his style of writing isn't similar at all with Robert Jordan's, and thus, the wheel of time. I love Asoiaf for what it is, it's way more of a political series, and doesn't incorporate as much nitty gritty as WoT does, in my opinion. I feel that GRRM's style would have clashed with RJ's established style more than Brandon's. 

I think in many ways, GRRM would have benefited this series to a greater extent than Brandon did. Consider this: he's a better prose writer, a better character writer, and has more experience managing a large cast than Brandon. He has also shown a greater willingness to undergo extensive rewrites to get the book to the standard he wants, rather than rushing things out. He has experience of writing large scale battles, and his experience with political conflict would likely have benefited story arcs like the WT power struggle and the FoM, and other conflicts which were political in nature. In other words, in key areas he is bringing to bear certain skills that Brandon lacks and that RJ possessed.

 

Maybe so, but he's also fairly well known for being unable to finish his own books. Imagine if he had to add more!

 Don't think it was a serious suggestion. They are just working in hypotheticals based off writing skills.

[Mr Ares]

 

 

So yes, it would be great if we all lived in Randland and were able to channel or lead nations or whatever it is that we wish we could do in this fantasy series, but at some point you have to just accept that this was a REALLY good series to read and the authors did the best with the characters that they could with what they were working with.  Brandon only had the notes and the people who worked with RJ to go on, and then he had to just be creative and try to work within the realms of his own talent.  RJ provided a really good foundation and awesome story with awesome characters for him to work with.  If we are left a little disappointed because of one or two things...well...not everything is perfect.

 

I enjoyed this series immensely, even with the little flaws.

 

Brandon was not in an easy position, no-one's going to deny that. I've always felt that to be overly tolerant of flaws and failures merely encourages further flaws and failures, so I'm not going to give him a pass despite the difficulty of finishing up WoT. He can do better, but if people keep making excuses for him he will never do better.

 

The problem is that Brandon's personal position encourages flaws. Let me clarify, I am not talking about the generic position he had to occupy as the writer to finish WoT, but his position in his own career. The lower prose, the raw plots that cut to the chase and the illogical tactics/strategies (usually not such a big issue unless considering the theme of the last book), all those could have been improved given more time. However, and I am assuming here, for a young writer it goes against his nature to spend a long time polishing an ending for someone else in a foreign intricate world struggling to understand someone else's characters. All this while you could be writing your own fantasy world, with characters and plots you feel more comfortable with, to be free developing a world as you please and not by some strict guidelines. While I guess it's true for every writer it is more so for a young one who has never had the opportunity to do so on a large scope. A young writer might want to save good plot ideas for his own novels not "wasting" them on something he could never bring to perfection nor get full credit for.

 

Though I can't be sure any of this applies in this case I think it does. That helps me to understand to some extent how could those books be published, and why were they published so quickly while their many flaws are obvious. I doubt that Brandon didn't notice those as well.

This is not to say that I forgive the flaws, just that I am shifting the blame a bit to the editors and team Jordan's side, I guess. they should have kept him in check and perhaps used some fans to help with editing, or even coming up with ideas. I surely enjoyed reading some great theories, utilizing the minds behind them could have been good, and considering the original author is no more in my mind it would have been justified.

Imagine a topic pops up on the forums a year ago asking for people to evaluate tactics and strategies with the use of massive amounts of channelers (of course without giving out any notion it would affect anything or be read at all). No need to use exact ideas, however a discussion among many educated people can lead to a broad idea of what can be done and what can't be done in such a situation.

personally for AMoL I would have gone farther and tried to find someone who has some real world experience in the matter and is a WoT fan (maybe it was done?).

 

At first when I saw the book release deadlines I was excited. Getting a book in a year? Awesome! Then I realized it's going to come at a price, and I would have rather not pay it, and wait longer instead.

Brandon's nearly forty - he should have learnt some degree of patience by now. Trying to make excuses on him being a young man doesn't hold a lot of water - bear in mind that RJ was only five years older when WoT first hit, and Sanderson has written a number of novels comparable to the number RJ had done when working on the early parts of the series. So RJ has had time to learn patience and how to rewrite, but BS hasn't? Again, forgiveness of failure encourages further failure - by now, Brandon is old enough to know better, and experienced enough to do better. When writers need to know about battles, tactics, strategy, they do the same thing they do when they have to find out about anything - they research. They look in books, they ask knowledgeable people for advice, that sort of thing. Bear in mind, knowledge of strategy will be useful for Brandon going forward - one of the big storylines thus far in WoK has revolved around a war. So either they didn't do enough research, or they didn't listen to the advice. Now, I imagine Brandon did want to get on with his own works, but if he wasn't willing to make the necessary commitment, then he shouldn't have taken the job. And yes, Team Jordan was at fault as well, but their failures do not excuse Brandon's. I'm not going to be an enabler for his mediocrity.

 

 

 

I apologize if I sounded negative towards him, I'm just stating that his style of writing isn't similar at all with Robert Jordan's, and thus, the wheel of time. I love Asoiaf for what it is, it's way more of a political series, and doesn't incorporate as much nitty gritty as WoT does, in my opinion. I feel that GRRM's style would have clashed with RJ's established style more than Brandon's. 

I think in many ways, GRRM would have benefited this series to a greater extent than Brandon did. Consider this: he's a better prose writer, a better character writer, and has more experience managing a large cast than Brandon. He has also shown a greater willingness to undergo extensive rewrites to get the book to the standard he wants, rather than rushing things out. He has experience of writing large scale battles, and his experience with political conflict would likely have benefited story arcs like the WT power struggle and the FoM, and other conflicts which were political in nature. In other words, in key areas he is bringing to bear certain skills that Brandon lacks and that RJ possessed.

 

Maybe so, but he's also fairly well known for being unable to finish his own books. Imagine if he had to add more!

True, but I was more pointing out that he had the required skills, not the required time.

[A Duke]

Brandon's nearly forty - he should have learnt some degree of patience by now. Trying to make excuses on him being a young man doesn't hold a lot of water - bear in mind that RJ was only five years older when WoT first hit, and Sanderson has written a number of novels comparable to the number RJ had done when working on the early parts of the series. So RJ has had time to learn patience and how to rewrite, but BS hasn't? Again, forgiveness of failure encourages further failure - by now, Brandon is old enough to know better, and experienced enough to do better.

 

I think we are not on the same page here. Instead of making excuses I am critisizing, instead of focusing on Brandon I am focusing on team Jordan. I wasn't refering to BS actual age but his stage in his career as a writer. Though it's no excuse for the Brandon himself team Jordan should have forseen that a writer in the dawn of his epic fantasy career would be enxious to get on with it. they should have considered the possibility that the time needed would be greater then what Brandon could devulge at this point, more so after it was decided to split the books to 2 then 3. None of this goes to excuse any critisizm on BS work, just looking at it from a different angle. Perhaps it would have been better to allow Brandon to have more time between WoT books to write his own, I doubt that this could have been his own decision.

 

but if he wasn't willing to make the necessary commitment, then he shouldn't have taken the job.

 

It's partially true. No one knew how much effort the job required. I believe that when he signed up for this it was only about 1 book, not 3 (could be wrong here though).

Have you seen the contract? How can you be sure he didn't deliver, for all we know he wanted and could have done better, alas the contract was for three years and he ran out of time. It is a bit unfair to judge him for not doing more than the contract demanded and postponing his own career farther than originally agreed or planned, it is poor work ethic though.

 

Team Jordan was at fault as well, but their failures do not excuse Brandon's.

 

When the workers are consistently in the wrong that usually means that the management did some mistakes too. That is not to excuse the workers. The mistakes of both parties should be considered separately. But neither group excuses the failings of the other.

That's the way I see the matter, anyway.

[Mr Ares]

 

Brandon's nearly forty - he should have learnt some degree of patience by now. Trying to make excuses on him being a young man doesn't hold a lot of water - bear in mind that RJ was only five years older when WoT first hit, and Sanderson has written a number of novels comparable to the number RJ had done when working on the early parts of the series. So RJ has had time to learn patience and how to rewrite, but BS hasn't? Again, forgiveness of failure encourages further failure - by now, Brandon is old enough to know better, and experienced enough to do better.

 

I think we are not on the same page here. Instead of making excuses I am critisizing, instead of focusing on Brandon I am focusing on team Jordan. I wasn't refering to BS actual age but his stage in his career as a writer. Though it's no excuse for the Brandon himself team Jordan should have forseen that a writer in the dawn of his epic fantasy career would be enxious to get on with it. they should have considered the possibility that the time needed would be greater then what Brandon could devulge at this point, more so after it was decided to split the books to 2 then 3. None of this goes to excuse any critisizm on BS work, just looking at it from a different angle. Perhaps it would have been better to allow Brandon to have more time between WoT books to write his own, I doubt that this could have been his own decision.

But as I pointed out, he's not that early in his career - at the time of TGS coming out, he had eight novels. It's now 14. Compare with a lot of other writers, and they don't have as many books out - China Mieville is at ten, Scott Lynch at two, Patrick Rothfuss at two, and so on. George R.R. Martin has eleven novels. Think about it: Brandon is producing novels at a faster rate than many other authors around at the moment. He's working at a breakneck speed. And the problems of his works are evident in those works outside of WoT, so Team Jordan cannot take all the blame. A big problem is his unwillingness to spend the necessary time on rewrites - Alloy of Law and Way of Kings both show signs of needing further work done to bring them up to par. It should have been evident to anyone at the time the job was taken on that there was a significant amount of material to cover, and it would take a lot of time to do justice to this book. Anyone who took it on would likely have to put their own projects on hold for years. Brandon seems to have rushed in without fully grasping the extent of the commitment needed. Yes, Team Jordan did fail to put out a book of the required standard, but Brandon was the writer.

 

but if he wasn't willing to make the necessary commitment, then he shouldn't have taken the job.

 

It's partially true. No one knew how much effort the job required. I believe that when he signed up for this it was only about 1 book, not 3 (could be wrong here though).

Have you seen the contract? How can you be sure he didn't deliver, for all we know he wanted and could have done better, alas the contract was for three years and he ran out of time. It is a bit unfair to judge him for not doing more than the contract demanded and postponing his own career farther than originally agreed or planned, it is poor work ethic though.

Writers do miss deadlines. There are plenty of instances of it out there. He could renegotiate, say he can't get it done in time (ultimately, if a writer doesn't have a manuscript ready, what can you do? You can punish the writer, but you can only publish if there is something to publish). We already saw the release date pushed back by a couple of months to January, which misses the lucrative Christmas period - if you're willing to do that for an author, you'll probably be willing to give him more time as well, especially given the circumstances. WoT is Tor's biggest series, and Brandon is the guy they are grooming to be their next big star, the new Robert Jordan. Again, if he asks for more time, he'll probably get it, within reason. And it is entirely fair to blame people for a poor work ethic.