Lord D's Fates worse than death for bad girls thread (full spoilers)

[Lord D]

The main problem I have with Tylin's rape of Mat is that Mat didn't seem to mind that much, and mourned Tylin when she was killed.  Now, if he'd been thinking "that horrible so-and-so raped me" I'd have been far more convinced.

[SylvanFox]

Maybe Mat had a little bit of Stockholm syndrome.

 

As for why the female baddies had worse fates than the males, I think it was partially because all the male evil people that died either weren't that developed as characters or had to be killed off quickly for the sake of safety. Graendal, Moghedien, Lanfear, and Liandrin all played major roles, complete with a decent amount of screen time. Graendal's fate was the same thing the she did to numerous people, so that makes sense. Moghedien had been collared before and could survive it again, especially if the Seanchan ever get around to releasing the damane. Although Rahvin had a lot of impact, he had to get balefired for Mat to come back to life. Asmodean was killed off quickly to keep his killer's identity a mystery. Sammael... I don't know, that was just weird. Demandred and M'Hael were killed in battle, where nobody is likely to take extra time to torture someone. Moridin says that the DO punished him by bringing him back to life. So I think it's maybe got more to do with then and why the characters met their end than with some kind of gender bias.

[Matthew79]

The main problem I have with Tylin's rape of Mat is that Mat didn't seem to mind that much, and mourned Tylin when she was killed. Now, if he'd been thinking "that horrible so-and-so raped me" I'd have been far more convinced.

I have a very hard time believing he was raped as well. Maybe it's the PG 13 nature of WOT, but even that scene with the knife didn't strike me as rape. I really can't see a man physically capable of performing if he felt violated.

[shortkut]

 

 

The main problem I have with Tylin's rape of Mat is that Mat didn't seem to mind that much, and mourned Tylin when she was killed. Now, if he'd been thinking "that horrible so-and-so raped me" I'd have been far more convinced.

I have a very hard time believing he was raped as well. Maybe it's the PG 13 nature of WOT, but even that scene with the knife didn't strike me as rape. I really can't see a man physically capable of performing if he felt violated.

Certain physiological responses are involuntary

[Suttree]

 

 

 

The main problem I have with Tylin's rape of Mat is that Mat didn't seem to mind that much, and mourned Tylin when she was killed. Now, if he'd been thinking "that horrible so-and-so raped me" I'd have been far more convinced.

I have a very hard time believing he was raped as well. Maybe it's the PG 13 nature of WOT, but even that scene with the knife didn't strike me as rape. I really can't see a man physically capable of performing if he felt violated.

That is one of the biggest myths surrounding male rape. Do some research, studies have shown that can be one of the most shaming aspects of the whole thing for men.

[Swigaro]

Maybe Mat had a little bit of Stockholm syndrome.

 

As for why the female baddies had worse fates than the males, I think it was partially because all the male evil people that died either weren't that developed as characters or had to be killed off quickly for the sake of safety. Graendal, Moghedien, Lanfear, and Liandrin all played major roles, complete with a decent amount of screen time. Graendal's fate was the same thing the she did to numerous people, so that makes sense. Moghedien had been collared before and could survive it again, especially if the Seanchan ever get around to releasing the damane. Although Rahvin had a lot of impact, he had to get balefired for Mat to come back to life. Asmodean was killed off quickly to keep his killer's identity a mystery. Sammael... I don't know, that was just weird. Demandred and M'Hael were killed in battle, where nobody is likely to take extra time to torture someone. Moridin says that the DO punished him by bringing him back to life. So I think it's maybe got more to do with then and why the characters met their end than with some kind of gender bias.

Regarding Moghedien, at least, I don't think she has much of a future, though I suppose techically she'd survive.  She was wearing her cor'suvra when she was captured.  Egwene tells Min, in TGH that the Suldam made her burn all of her clothes, and said "Damane have no posessions."  Though it would have happened off screen, I think, Moghedien was about to be forced to destroy her own soul trap. 

[BFG]

Maybe Mat had a little bit of Stockholm syndrome.

 

As for why the female baddies had worse fates than the males, I think it was partially because all the male evil people that died either weren't that developed as characters or had to be killed off quickly for the sake of safety. Graendal, Moghedien, Lanfear, and Liandrin all played major roles, complete with a decent amount of screen time. Graendal's fate was the same thing the she did to numerous people, so that makes sense. Moghedien had been collared before and could survive it again, especially if the Seanchan ever get around to releasing the damane. Although Rahvin had a lot of impact, he had to get balefired for Mat to come back to life. Asmodean was killed off quickly to keep his killer's identity a mystery. Sammael... I don't know, that was just weird. Demandred and M'Hael were killed in battle, where nobody is likely to take extra time to torture someone. Moridin says that the DO punished him by bringing him back to life. So I think it's maybe got more to do with then and why the characters met their end than with some kind of gender bias.

 

Sammael dying 'offscreen' was a deliberate choice of RJs, a sort of nothing death for an underwhelming Forsaken (I can't get the filters to work on Terezs database, but I'm sure their's a quote somewhere).

 

You may have a good point about the deaths reflecting the nature of the Forsaken, I think it's exacerbated by the fact that the main Forsaken killing person has difficulty hurting women, meaning they were more likely to survive the initial books, and also the fact that most of the female Forsaken were better hidden than the male Forsaken.

[Lord D]

Damane are non-evil women who definitely have fates worse than death; spending your entire 500-year lifetime like that would be hell on earth.  Even the Shadow kills its victims eventually.

[Aleator77]

Well that's no big deal now that the Seanchan have the male collars as well.  Equality all around!

[Suttree]

Well that's no big deal now that the Seanchan have the male collars as well. 

We don't know that they do.

[Lord D]

Well that's no big deal now that the Seanchan have the male collars as well.  Equality all around!

There's lots of discussion of this on the Seanchan thread.  Remember that the male collars have a flaw that allows the man to eventually control the woman.  I can imagine the men getting revenge on the sul'dam after being flogged, etc.  The sul'dam would need to break the men quickly, or else kill them.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Alright, since the Mat/Tylin debate has some bearing on this thread, I'll let it go. However, I ask you to keep it a sub-topic and not hijack the thread completely. 

 

If you wish to start a topic dedicated to the matter, do so in the General Discussion Forum. 

[Aleator77]

 

Well that's no big deal now that the Seanchan have the male collars as well.  Equality all around!

There's lots of discussion of this on the Seanchan thread.  Remember that the male collars have a flaw that allows the man to eventually control the woman.  I can imagine the men getting revenge on the sul'dam after being flogged, etc.  The sul'dam would need to break the men quickly, or else kill them.

Well it was stated that effect could be mitigated by passing control around.  I doubt the empire would have a problem instituting a policy that kept certain sul'dam from working with the same man for extended periods of time.

[Lord D]

 

 

Well that's no big deal now that the Seanchan have the male collars as well.  Equality all around!

There's lots of discussion of this on the Seanchan thread.  Remember that the male collars have a flaw that allows the man to eventually control the woman.  I can imagine the men getting revenge on the sul'dam after being flogged, etc.  The sul'dam would need to break the men quickly, or else kill them.

Well it was stated that effect could be mitigated by passing control around.  I doubt the empire would have a problem instituting a policy that kept certain sul'dam from working with the same man for extended periods of time.

I may write a story at some stage in which the male damane get revenge on the sul'dam, and start dominating the sul'dam.  In that case, the sul'dam would suffer a Fate worse than Death.