The Androl Thread

[XXX]

Moghedien said that in the Age of Legends, stars were actually other places altogether, and that one could Travel to them (probably using Portal Stones).  It seems to me that the imaginative use of gateways in AMOL isn't far-fetched, it only lacks practicality of a sort.  I mean, gateways were used primarily for transportation in the Age of Legends.  When the Dark One tainted saidin and people started going crazy and the War of Power broke out...lots of different things emerged which were probably horrifying to the original uses of those weaves.  Gateways begot Deathgates.  Healing begot ways to stop a person's heart or kill them, etc. 

 

Egwene pondered that Skimming was somehow connected to Tel'aran'rhiod and I think that gateways depend a great deal on a person's imagination and ability to see things visually in their mind, just like in the World of Dreams.  For the channeler, the weave is important but their strength in the Power is not - it's more about the actual Talent itself.  Breaking a rock with Earth, for example, requires no Talent so Andrhol was very weak and hardly able to chip away part of the rock at all.  Making a gateway has to do with Talent and so he was much more proficient.  For someone who may have been a Farstrider cousin...traveling and seeing the world probably gave him a very vivid imagination, thereby fueling his Talent in making gateways when he should not have been able to.

 

Think of it as playing the piano.  Anyone can be trained how to play the piano.  One person has a weak musical talent, but is shown how to move their fingers across the keyboard and understand how written music works so they can sit down and play a piece by Mozart.  It's technically correct and played well.  Another person has a very strong Talent for playing the piano.  When they sit down to play the same piece of music, there is something different about it - it's alive, there is emotion in every note...it's efficient and well played, sure, but it's also much more captivating because of the strength of that Talent.

 

I think that example works right...hmmmmm.

 

MOggy said many things which IMO was just blowing smoke. She does not seem particularly skilled in OP as the other forsaken.

[Hupert]

Why Androl is awesome:

1) Talent vs. Strength in the power.
As discussed above this is a cool idea to explore, and I'm glad BS put his stamp down here. And the versatility of gateway use in this novel was vastly more entertaining than anytime someone flung a fireball or caused dirt to spray.

2) Male vs. Female.
The Androl-Pevara bond/discovery of telepathy was new and also interesting to see male and female reaching a common ground. Much better than seeing how the typical warder bond just causes warders and Aes Sedai to lose their minds so the Shadow kills 2 for 1 in battle. Gawyn, you are a douche.

3) Androl = Rand.
No, not time travel. Not, 2 bodies one soul or some crazy crap like that. The single most important role for Androl in the book is it gives us a window into Rand's future. The Epilogue is so, so bittersweet to read. Knowing that last chapter's is RJ's is a great way to finish this epic series. To see Rand finally have a chance to live life without the burden of the entire world riding on his shoulders is wonderful, but we are given no more than a tiny glimpse of a man riding off on a good horse (although no saddle and no towns to stop at for quite a while so not sure that coin is going to be all that helpful). Rand can't channel anymore, but he can light a pipe -- what are his new powers? Can he do anything he wants? or is lighting a pipe all he can muster with his mind control? If it's the latter than Rand is going off to live a life relatively weak in his powers, and supposedly he wants nothing to do with power or palaces.  

So what is Rand's future? It's this question that makes me happy for the Androl storyline. We get a picture of a man who just likes learning, exploring and seeing the world. Sort of like Jain Farstrider, but in a much more low key and humble way. And that is an awesome picture to have in place as we see Rand set off. Maybe Rand finds those cliffs to jump off of. Maybe Rand learns how to craft a saddle for that horse he's riding. Maybe he just chops wood for a place to sleep or goes back to playing the flute at an Inn or two. I don't know if BS did it intentionally, but the Androl storyline prepared me for Rand's departure. And for that, the Androl storyline deserves it's space in this book.    

[Empress Tuon]

I like Androl, and although I thought he did take up more than his fair share of the book, the humour in his character was worth it. He made me laugh and laugh. Without him, I would have been a total mess crying over a lot of the other characters. The Wheel of Time series has taught me that we all need balance. For me, some of the humour and the happy moments, particularly Androl and Pevara moments, helped to balance the darker side of the book.

 

At the moment, I think Androl is receiving a lot of hate. Yes, he took up space in the book! However, he helped clear up quite a few problems, eg. saving Logain, Andor, and getting rid of Taim's cronies. Robert Jordan gave the ideas and general sketch as to whar must happen. Sanderson gave him life, body, heart and soul.

 

I wish many more characters had had their say as well, especially Moraine, but if that was the case, I guess A Memory of Light would be split into four books, which would be ridiculous.

[Suttree]

I

At the moment, I think Androl is receiving a lot of hate. Yes, he took up space in the book! However, he helped clear up quite a few problems, eg. saving Logain, Andor, and getting rid of Taim's cronies. Robert Jordan gave the ideas and general sketch as to whar must happen. Sanderson gave him life, body, heart and soul.

RJ did not give the ideas and a general sketch for what this character was doing. Androl was Sanderson's "pet character"(it's why people call him Sandrolson) and he hugely expanded his role. Brandon knew where things were supposed to end up but had to create everything in between in this instance and ran with Androl doing the majority of what needed to be done.

[futurehermit]

Androl and the Black Tower resolution was one of the hugest disappointments in this series that I've been reading for 20 years.  During all those years of waiting in anticipation for the next book, etc., during many re-reads, I came to fall in love with many of the primary and secondary characters.  Logain's glory had been foreshadowed for many (real life) years now.  Once the Black Tower arc started to develop, I was sure that it had to end with Logain facing Taim in an epic, epic showdown, with Logain coming out on top.  

What happened instead?  Logain gets captured then rescued by some guy -- Androl -- who I have very, very little invested in by comparison.  Then, once Logain is free, it's again Androl who outshines Logain during the Last Battle.  Sure, in the end, we see Logain -- basically, against his own instincts to go after the sa'angreal -- luck into being in a situation where the commoners start to like the Ashaman and we see that Logain will get his glory by being the Amrylin equivalent in the Black Tower.

 

Great, but that will happen off-screen in books that will not get written and I will not have the pleasure to read.

 

Androl is a character who steals Logain's thunder and I am really disappointed in that, despite having nothing against Androl's actual character per se -- he's a likeable and heroic enough guy, just in the wrong place at the wrong time for this series imo.  He took up waaaaay too much screen time in this last, pivotal book compared to other primary and secondary characters, many of whom are reduced to cameos.  

 

Very disappointed in this character arc.

[Vambram]

I was one of those who also expected the Black Tower arc to have a final confrontation between Logain and Taim. However, I am glad that we got something different and unexpected. Not only was it unexpected and different than what most of us thought was going to happen, but also Androl's arc was well written and very entertaining to me.

[futurehermit]

Sure, but at the expense of more established characters in the series imo.  Where was Androl in the first 10 books and why am I reading so much about him in the last one, by comparison?

[Vambram]

Why were we reading so much about Androl as compared to other second and third tier characters?

 

Well, it is because Harriet allowed Brandon to put his own unique character into the series which gave us fans the opportunity to read someone who was different and unexpected from what we assumed was going to happen. 

[Rhienne]

Did I enjoy reading Androl's arc?  Yes.

 

Would I have glady swapped every single one of his scenes for a two page reunion between Moiraine and Siuan and/or Lan?  Yes.

 

The last 7% of a story is not the part to bring in a new character unless it is for a very specific plot related purpose.  I feel that if RJ had written the last books, all the things Androl did would have been dished out among the already existing Asha'man.

 

It jars with me that in a book which is 95% action, and lacks in the character relationships/insight department, the 5% of character and relationship development goes to a Red Sister and and Asha'man that we really have nothing invested in.  We don't get a single scene with Min and Rand, a brief paragraph of reunion for the Emond's Fielder's, a moment of reflection between Elayne and Nynaeve that Egwene is gone, but yet we get 5+ chapters devoted to Pevara and Androl flirting with each other!?  Exasperating to say the least.

[futurehermit]

Did I enjoy reading Androl's arc?  Yes.

 

Would I have glady swapped every single one of his scenes for a two page reunion between Moiraine and Siuan and/or Lan?  Yes.

 

The last 7% of a story is not the part to bring in a new character unless it is for a very specific plot related purpose.  I feel that if RJ had written the last books, all the things Androl did would have been dished out among the already existing Asha'man.

 

It jars with me that in a book which is 95% action, and lacks in the character relationships/insight department, the 5% of character and relationship development goes to a Red Sister and and Asha'man that we really have nothing invested in.  We don't get a single scene with Min and Rand, a brief paragraph of reunion for the Emond's Fielder's, a moment of reflection between Elayne and Nynaeve that Egwene is gone, but yet we get 5+ chapters devoted to Pevara and Androl flirting with each other!?  Exasperating to say the least.

 

Exactly

[Elan Tedronai]

Androl and the Black Tower resolution was one of the hugest disappointments in this series that I've been reading for 20 years.  During all those years of waiting in anticipation for the next book, etc., during many re-reads, I came to fall in love with many of the primary and secondary characters.  Logain's glory had been foreshadowed for many (real life) years now.  Once the Black Tower arc started to develop, I was sure that it had to end with Logain facing Taim in an epic, epic showdown, with Logain coming out on top.  

 

What happened instead?  Logain gets captured then rescued by some guy -- Androl -- who I have very, very little invested in by comparison.  Then, once Logain is free, it's again Androl who outshines Logain during the Last Battle.  Sure, in the end, we see Logain -- basically, against his own instincts to go after the sa'angreal -- luck into being in a situation where the commoners start to like the Ashaman and we see that Logain will get his glory by being the Amrylin equivalent in the Black Tower.

 

Great, but that will happen off-screen in books that will not get written and I will not have the pleasure to read.

 

Androl is a character who steals Logain's thunder and I am really disappointed in that, despite having nothing against Androl's actual character per se -- he's a likeable and heroic enough guy, just in the wrong place at the wrong time for this series imo.  He took up waaaaay too much screen time in this last, pivotal book compared to other primary and secondary characters, many of whom are reduced to cameos.  

 

Very disappointed in this character arc.

 

 

Androl not only stole logain's thunder, he made characters like flinn and narishma completly forgotton.

 

It was basically sanderson putting his mark on the series and getting rid of established jordan characters.

 

pathetic

[Vambram]

Flinn and Narishma were not completely forgotten characters in AMOL. Both of them were in the book and played roles which were very helpful for the Light-siders.

 

I do agree that I would have liked to have seen more from Narishma and Flinn, but I am not going to put that down as a major criticism of mine for this book.

[BFG]

 

Androl and the Black Tower resolution was one of the hugest disappointments in this series that I've been reading for 20 years.  During all those years of waiting in anticipation for the next book, etc., during many re-reads, I came to fall in love with many of the primary and secondary characters.  Logain's glory had been foreshadowed for many (real life) years now.  Once the Black Tower arc started to develop, I was sure that it had to end with Logain facing Taim in an epic, epic showdown, with Logain coming out on top.  

 

What happened instead?  Logain gets captured then rescued by some guy -- Androl -- who I have very, very little invested in by comparison.  Then, once Logain is free, it's again Androl who outshines Logain during the Last Battle.  Sure, in the end, we see Logain -- basically, against his own instincts to go after the sa'angreal -- luck into being in a situation where the commoners start to like the Ashaman and we see that Logain will get his glory by being the Amrylin equivalent in the Black Tower.

 

Great, but that will happen off-screen in books that will not get written and I will not have the pleasure to read.

 

Androl is a character who steals Logain's thunder and I am really disappointed in that, despite having nothing against Androl's actual character per se -- he's a likeable and heroic enough guy, just in the wrong place at the wrong time for this series imo.  He took up waaaaay too much screen time in this last, pivotal book compared to other primary and secondary characters, many of whom are reduced to cameos.  

 

Very disappointed in this character arc.

 

 

Androl not only stole logain's thunder, he made characters like flinn and narishma completly forgotton.

 

It was basically sanderson putting his mark on the series and getting rid of established jordan characters.

 

pathetic

 

 

Androl didn't steal Logain's thunder - Logain's 'thunder' was (and will be) in the rehabilitation of male channelers with the rest of the Randland population, started with rescuing those refugees. 

 

Based on Q & A sessions, the majority of things that Androl did were ear-marked by RJ for one Ashaman or another to do (I doubt that he 'stole' the jobs from Logain, or that Harriet would have let him if he'd tried), and none of the Ashaman we saw would have fit into the story as well as a BT Ashaman - the Ashaman at the BT needed to rescue themselves and not be rescued, otherwise they were setting themselves up for a lifetime of second placeness.  As such, none of the Ashaman we spent time  with would have worked as well in the story as a BT Ashaman, of which other than the bad guys we had a few named, Androl was one, and BS developed him.  Nor am I convinced that another Ashaman (Flinn, Narishma, Grady) would have worked as well stealing back the seals, they have no connection to Logain, why would they take the seals back to him instead of their AS colleagues?  It's possible that Androl took the jobs of 2 or more other Ashaman (that RJ may have written), but I feel that trying to use an 'established' Ashaman would be trying to force them into the story.

[Charred Knight]

 

 

Androl and the Black Tower resolution was one of the hugest disappointments in this series that I've been reading for 20 years.  During all those years of waiting in anticipation for the next book, etc., during many re-reads, I came to fall in love with many of the primary and secondary characters.  Logain's glory had been foreshadowed for many (real life) years now.  Once the Black Tower arc started to develop, I was sure that it had to end with Logain facing Taim in an epic, epic showdown, with Logain coming out on top.  

 

What happened instead?  Logain gets captured then rescued by some guy -- Androl -- who I have very, very little invested in by comparison.  Then, once Logain is free, it's again Androl who outshines Logain during the Last Battle.  Sure, in the end, we see Logain -- basically, against his own instincts to go after the sa'angreal -- luck into being in a situation where the commoners start to like the Ashaman and we see that Logain will get his glory by being the Amrylin equivalent in the Black Tower.

 

Great, but that will happen off-screen in books that will not get written and I will not have the pleasure to read.

 

Androl is a character who steals Logain's thunder and I am really disappointed in that, despite having nothing against Androl's actual character per se -- he's a likeable and heroic enough guy, just in the wrong place at the wrong time for this series imo.  He took up waaaaay too much screen time in this last, pivotal book compared to other primary and secondary characters, many of whom are reduced to cameos.  

 

Very disappointed in this character arc.

 

 

Androl not only stole logain's thunder, he made characters like flinn and narishma completly forgotton.

 

It was basically sanderson putting his mark on the series and getting rid of established jordan characters.

 

pathetic

 

 

Androl didn't steal Logain's thunder - Logain's 'thunder' was (and will be) in the rehabilitation of male channelers with the rest of the Randland population, started with rescuing those refugees. 

 

Based on Q & A sessions, the majority of things that Androl did were ear-marked by RJ for one Ashaman or another to do (I doubt that he 'stole' the jobs from Logain, or that Harriet would have let him if he'd tried), and none of the Ashaman we saw would have fit into the story as well as a BT Ashaman - the Ashaman at the BT needed to rescue themselves and not be rescued, otherwise they were setting themselves up for a lifetime of second placeness.  As such, none of the Ashaman we spent time  with would have worked as well in the story as a BT Ashaman, of which other than the bad guys we had a few named, Androl was one, and BS developed him.  Nor am I convinced that another Ashaman (Flinn, Narishma, Grady) would have worked as well stealing back the seals, they have no connection to Logain, why would they take the seals back to him instead of their AS colleagues?  It's possible that Androl took the jobs of 2 or more other Ashaman (that RJ may have written), but I feel that trying to use an 'established' Ashaman would be trying to force them into the story.

 

The problem is that your basically lowering Logain's faction to being the 5 people that Sanderson wrote about, Logain had dozens of followers.  The only justification was to give him a ridiculous backstory of being some well traveled guy who saw it all a combination of Jain Farstrider and Guaire Amalasan.  When Sanderson got through with Logain he was a pathetic wretch who was flat out handed glory.  Imagine if Sanderson wrote the White Tower arc like that with some previously minor Aes Sedai all of a sudden mounting a rescue, holding off the Seanchan by herself without any help from anyone and then telling the Tower Aes Sedai that the only person who can be Amyrlin is Egwene.  The Egwene fans would throw down the book and tell Harriet to fire Sanderson and yet thats what we got in this book.  Some previously barely mentioned character is all of a sudden revealed to be the greatest Asha'man of them all better than both Taim and Logain, not only does he single handily win back the Black Tower, but he defeated two forsaken at the same time causing them to run.  The only reason his not the leader is because for some reason he wants Logain to be the leader despite being a complete loser.

 

I wanted to read about Logain not the Sanderson Reborn.

 

You cant write about how some character is going to do some great thing and then 15 years later you end the series with the character not having done the great thing you spent 10 books talking about.  

 

I literally laughed out loud when the seal breaking scene happened because the fact that Sanderson tried to make it some big deal was hilarious.  You might as well of had Almen Bunt destroy them with a shovel.  

[Elan Tedronai]

 

 

 

Androl and the Black Tower resolution was one of the hugest disappointments in this series that I've been reading for 20 years.  During all those years of waiting in anticipation for the next book, etc., during many re-reads, I came to fall in love with many of the primary and secondary characters.  Logain's glory had been foreshadowed for many (real life) years now.  Once the Black Tower arc started to develop, I was sure that it had to end with Logain facing Taim in an epic, epic showdown, with Logain coming out on top.  

 

What happened instead?  Logain gets captured then rescued by some guy -- Androl -- who I have very, very little invested in by comparison.  Then, once Logain is free, it's again Androl who outshines Logain during the Last Battle.  Sure, in the end, we see Logain -- basically, against his own instincts to go after the sa'angreal -- luck into being in a situation where the commoners start to like the Ashaman and we see that Logain will get his glory by being the Amrylin equivalent in the Black Tower.

 

Great, but that will happen off-screen in books that will not get written and I will not have the pleasure to read.

 

Androl is a character who steals Logain's thunder and I am really disappointed in that, despite having nothing against Androl's actual character per se -- he's a likeable and heroic enough guy, just in the wrong place at the wrong time for this series imo.  He took up waaaaay too much screen time in this last, pivotal book compared to other primary and secondary characters, many of whom are reduced to cameos.  

 

Very disappointed in this character arc.

 

 

Androl not only stole logain's thunder, he made characters like flinn and narishma completly forgotton.

 

It was basically sanderson putting his mark on the series and getting rid of established jordan characters.

 

pathetic

 

 

Androl didn't steal Logain's thunder - Logain's 'thunder' was (and will be) in the rehabilitation of male channelers with the rest of the Randland population, started with rescuing those refugees. 

 

Based on Q & A sessions, the majority of things that Androl did were ear-marked by RJ for one Ashaman or another to do (I doubt that he 'stole' the jobs from Logain, or that Harriet would have let him if he'd tried), and none of the Ashaman we saw would have fit into the story as well as a BT Ashaman - the Ashaman at the BT needed to rescue themselves and not be rescued, otherwise they were setting themselves up for a lifetime of second placeness.  As such, none of the Ashaman we spent time  with would have worked as well in the story as a BT Ashaman, of which other than the bad guys we had a few named, Androl was one, and BS developed him.  Nor am I convinced that another Ashaman (Flinn, Narishma, Grady) would have worked as well stealing back the seals, they have no connection to Logain, why would they take the seals back to him instead of their AS colleagues?  It's possible that Androl took the jobs of 2 or more other Ashaman (that RJ may have written), but I feel that trying to use an 'established' Ashaman would be trying to force them into the story.

 

The problem is that your basically lowering Logain's faction to being the 5 people that Sanderson wrote about, Logain had dozens of followers.  The only justification was to give him a ridiculous backstory of being some well traveled guy who saw it all a combination of Jain Farstrider and Guaire Amalasan.  When Sanderson got through with Logain he was a pathetic wretch who was flat out handed glory.  Imagine if Sanderson wrote the White Tower arc like that with some previously minor Aes Sedai all of a sudden mounting a rescue, holding off the Seanchan by herself without any help from anyone and then telling the Tower Aes Sedai that the only person who can be Amyrlin is Egwene.  The Egwene fans would throw down the book and tell Harriet to fire Sanderson and yet thats what we got in this book.  Some previously barely mentioned character is all of a sudden revealed to be the greatest Asha'man of them all better than both Taim and Logain, not only does he single handily win back the Black Tower, but he defeated two forsaken at the same time causing them to run.  The only reason his not the leader is because for some reason he wants Logain to be the leader despite being a complete loser.

 

I wanted to read about Logain not the Sanderson Reborn.

 

You cant write about how some character is going to do some great thing and then 15 years later you end the series with the character not having done the great thing you spent 10 books talking about.  

 

I literally laughed out loud when the seal breaking scene happened because the fact that Sanderson tried to make it some big deal was hilarious.  You might as well of had Almen Bunt destroy them with a shovel.  

 

 

Brilliant absolutely brilliant!!

 

someone send this post to maria and sanderson

[futurehermit]

 

 

 

 

Androl and the Black Tower resolution was one of the hugest disappointments in this series that I've been reading for 20 years.  During all those years of waiting in anticipation for the next book, etc., during many re-reads, I came to fall in love with many of the primary and secondary characters.  Logain's glory had been foreshadowed for many (real life) years now.  Once the Black Tower arc started to develop, I was sure that it had to end with Logain facing Taim in an epic, epic showdown, with Logain coming out on top.  

 

What happened instead?  Logain gets captured then rescued by some guy -- Androl -- who I have very, very little invested in by comparison.  Then, once Logain is free, it's again Androl who outshines Logain during the Last Battle.  Sure, in the end, we see Logain -- basically, against his own instincts to go after the sa'angreal -- luck into being in a situation where the commoners start to like the Ashaman and we see that Logain will get his glory by being the Amrylin equivalent in the Black Tower.

 

Great, but that will happen off-screen in books that will not get written and I will not have the pleasure to read.

 

Androl is a character who steals Logain's thunder and I am really disappointed in that, despite having nothing against Androl's actual character per se -- he's a likeable and heroic enough guy, just in the wrong place at the wrong time for this series imo.  He took up waaaaay too much screen time in this last, pivotal book compared to other primary and secondary characters, many of whom are reduced to cameos.  

 

Very disappointed in this character arc.

 

 

Androl not only stole logain's thunder, he made characters like flinn and narishma completly forgotton.

 

It was basically sanderson putting his mark on the series and getting rid of established jordan characters.

 

pathetic

 

 

Androl didn't steal Logain's thunder - Logain's 'thunder' was (and will be) in the rehabilitation of male channelers with the rest of the Randland population, started with rescuing those refugees. 

 

Based on Q & A sessions, the majority of things that Androl did were ear-marked by RJ for one Ashaman or another to do (I doubt that he 'stole' the jobs from Logain, or that Harriet would have let him if he'd tried), and none of the Ashaman we saw would have fit into the story as well as a BT Ashaman - the Ashaman at the BT needed to rescue themselves and not be rescued, otherwise they were setting themselves up for a lifetime of second placeness.  As such, none of the Ashaman we spent time  with would have worked as well in the story as a BT Ashaman, of which other than the bad guys we had a few named, Androl was one, and BS developed him.  Nor am I convinced that another Ashaman (Flinn, Narishma, Grady) would have worked as well stealing back the seals, they have no connection to Logain, why would they take the seals back to him instead of their AS colleagues?  It's possible that Androl took the jobs of 2 or more other Ashaman (that RJ may have written), but I feel that trying to use an 'established' Ashaman would be trying to force them into the story.

 

The problem is that your basically lowering Logain's faction to being the 5 people that Sanderson wrote about, Logain had dozens of followers.  The only justification was to give him a ridiculous backstory of being some well traveled guy who saw it all a combination of Jain Farstrider and Guaire Amalasan.  When Sanderson got through with Logain he was a pathetic wretch who was flat out handed glory.  Imagine if Sanderson wrote the White Tower arc like that with some previously minor Aes Sedai all of a sudden mounting a rescue, holding off the Seanchan by herself without any help from anyone and then telling the Tower Aes Sedai that the only person who can be Amyrlin is Egwene.  The Egwene fans would throw down the book and tell Harriet to fire Sanderson and yet thats what we got in this book.  Some previously barely mentioned character is all of a sudden revealed to be the greatest Asha'man of them all better than both Taim and Logain, not only does he single handily win back the Black Tower, but he defeated two forsaken at the same time causing them to run.  The only reason his not the leader is because for some reason he wants Logain to be the leader despite being a complete loser.

 

I wanted to read about Logain not the Sanderson Reborn.

 

You cant write about how some character is going to do some great thing and then 15 years later you end the series with the character not having done the great thing you spent 10 books talking about.  

 

I literally laughed out loud when the seal breaking scene happened because the fact that Sanderson tried to make it some big deal was hilarious.  You might as well of had Almen Bunt destroy them with a shovel.  

 

 

Brilliant absolutely brilliant!!

 

someone send this post to maria and sanderson

+1

[Allenbird]

Androl is good, but if you want to talk about Asha'man who were underdeveloped, what about Dashiva?? I mean he was Aginor in another body. AGINOR!! the head biologist who helped create the darkspawn like a bloody Dr. Frankenstein. And no character development for him at all. What a waste.

[Ace Sedai]

 

 

 

 

 

Androl and the Black Tower resolution was one of the hugest disappointments in this series that I've been reading for 20 years.  During all those years of waiting in anticipation for the next book, etc., during many re-reads, I came to fall in love with many of the primary and secondary characters.  Logain's glory had been foreshadowed for many (real life) years now.  Once the Black Tower arc started to develop, I was sure that it had to end with Logain facing Taim in an epic, epic showdown, with Logain coming out on top.  

 

What happened instead?  Logain gets captured then rescued by some guy -- Androl -- who I have very, very little invested in by comparison.  Then, once Logain is free, it's again Androl who outshines Logain during the Last Battle.  Sure, in the end, we see Logain -- basically, against his own instincts to go after the sa'angreal -- luck into being in a situation where the commoners start to like the Ashaman and we see that Logain will get his glory by being the Amrylin equivalent in the Black Tower.

 

Great, but that will happen off-screen in books that will not get written and I will not have the pleasure to read.

 

Androl is a character who steals Logain's thunder and I am really disappointed in that, despite having nothing against Androl's actual character per se -- he's a likeable and heroic enough guy, just in the wrong place at the wrong time for this series imo.  He took up waaaaay too much screen time in this last, pivotal book compared to other primary and secondary characters, many of whom are reduced to cameos.  

 

Very disappointed in this character arc.

 

 

Androl not only stole logain's thunder, he made characters like flinn and narishma completly forgotton.

 

It was basically sanderson putting his mark on the series and getting rid of established jordan characters.

 

pathetic

 

 

Androl didn't steal Logain's thunder - Logain's 'thunder' was (and will be) in the rehabilitation of male channelers with the rest of the Randland population, started with rescuing those refugees. 

 

Based on Q & A sessions, the majority of things that Androl did were ear-marked by RJ for one Ashaman or another to do (I doubt that he 'stole' the jobs from Logain, or that Harriet would have let him if he'd tried), and none of the Ashaman we saw would have fit into the story as well as a BT Ashaman - the Ashaman at the BT needed to rescue themselves and not be rescued, otherwise they were setting themselves up for a lifetime of second placeness.  As such, none of the Ashaman we spent time  with would have worked as well in the story as a BT Ashaman, of which other than the bad guys we had a few named, Androl was one, and BS developed him.  Nor am I convinced that another Ashaman (Flinn, Narishma, Grady) would have worked as well stealing back the seals, they have no connection to Logain, why would they take the seals back to him instead of their AS colleagues?  It's possible that Androl took the jobs of 2 or more other Ashaman (that RJ may have written), but I feel that trying to use an 'established' Ashaman would be trying to force them into the story.

 

The problem is that your basically lowering Logain's faction to being the 5 people that Sanderson wrote about, Logain had dozens of followers.  The only justification was to give him a ridiculous backstory of being some well traveled guy who saw it all a combination of Jain Farstrider and Guaire Amalasan.  When Sanderson got through with Logain he was a pathetic wretch who was flat out handed glory.  Imagine if Sanderson wrote the White Tower arc like that with some previously minor Aes Sedai all of a sudden mounting a rescue, holding off the Seanchan by herself without any help from anyone and then telling the Tower Aes Sedai that the only person who can be Amyrlin is Egwene.  The Egwene fans would throw down the book and tell Harriet to fire Sanderson and yet thats what we got in this book.  Some previously barely mentioned character is all of a sudden revealed to be the greatest Asha'man of them all better than both Taim and Logain, not only does he single handily win back the Black Tower, but he defeated two forsaken at the same time causing them to run.  The only reason his not the leader is because for some reason he wants Logain to be the leader despite being a complete loser.

 

I wanted to read about Logain not the Sanderson Reborn.

 

You cant write about how some character is going to do some great thing and then 15 years later you end the series with the character not having done the great thing you spent 10 books talking about.  

 

I literally laughed out loud when the seal breaking scene happened because the fact that Sanderson tried to make it some big deal was hilarious.  You might as well of had Almen Bunt destroy them with a shovel.  

 

 

Brilliant absolutely brilliant!!

 

someone send this post to maria and sanderson

+1

+2

[Celebel]

Do you guys really think that Taim's demise by Egwene's hand wasn't mandated by RJ? Yes, everybody expected Logain to have the honors, but wouldn't it have been very predictable and boring?

 

And as has been mentioned, Flinn and Narishma don't fit because they are not _in _ the Black Tower and don't know any of the recruits who arrived after Dumai's Wells! Not to mention that they had very little characterization and their AS even less.

 

RJ sent a fairly established character like Pevara to the BT for a reason, IMHO. She was always supposed to be heavily involved in this storyline. And since none of "established" Asha'man could be her partner(s), there was always supposed to be somebody new involved.

 

Re: Logain's faction, everybody who bonded an AS was assigned to tasks outside of the BT as of KoD, while remaining people were whittled down by the Turning. The 5 guys we saw most of were just the hard core of the conspiracy, and they were in the end saved by the unnamed mass of Logain's men. It was the arrival of these men that caused Taim to flee in the end, not Androl's gateways. Logain could have done more in this fight, maybe, even though it was realistic that he couldn't. Ditto Androl's group other than himself. I was expecting Pevara to link with him and maybe Emarin to give him the boost to overcome the ter'angreal.

 

IMHO, the main problem of the BT storyline is that it was put on the back-burner by RJ in favor of far more boring and in the end much less relevant plots... And Sanderson followed suit by cramming all of it into AMoL - for shock value? Instead of distributing it over 3 last volumes, which would have allowed for more organic developement.

[BFG]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Androl and the Black Tower resolution was one of the hugest disappointments in this series that I've been reading for 20 years.  During all those years of waiting in anticipation for the next book, etc., during many re-reads, I came to fall in love with many of the primary and secondary characters.  Logain's glory had been foreshadowed for many (real life) years now.  Once the Black Tower arc started to develop, I was sure that it had to end with Logain facing Taim in an epic, epic showdown, with Logain coming out on top.  

 

What happened instead?  Logain gets captured then rescued by some guy -- Androl -- who I have very, very little invested in by comparison.  Then, once Logain is free, it's again Androl who outshines Logain during the Last Battle.  Sure, in the end, we see Logain -- basically, against his own instincts to go after the sa'angreal -- luck into being in a situation where the commoners start to like the Ashaman and we see that Logain will get his glory by being the Amrylin equivalent in the Black Tower.

 

Great, but that will happen off-screen in books that will not get written and I will not have the pleasure to read.

 

Androl is a character who steals Logain's thunder and I am really disappointed in that, despite having nothing against Androl's actual character per se -- he's a likeable and heroic enough guy, just in the wrong place at the wrong time for this series imo.  He took up waaaaay too much screen time in this last, pivotal book compared to other primary and secondary characters, many of whom are reduced to cameos.  

 

Very disappointed in this character arc.

 

 

Androl not only stole logain's thunder, he made characters like flinn and narishma completly forgotton.

 

It was basically sanderson putting his mark on the series and getting rid of established jordan characters.

 

pathetic

 

 

Androl didn't steal Logain's thunder - Logain's 'thunder' was (and will be) in the rehabilitation of male channelers with the rest of the Randland population, started with rescuing those refugees. 

 

Based on Q & A sessions, the majority of things that Androl did were ear-marked by RJ for one Ashaman or another to do (I doubt that he 'stole' the jobs from Logain, or that Harriet would have let him if he'd tried), and none of the Ashaman we saw would have fit into the story as well as a BT Ashaman - the Ashaman at the BT needed to rescue themselves and not be rescued, otherwise they were setting themselves up for a lifetime of second placeness.  As such, none of the Ashaman we spent time  with would have worked as well in the story as a BT Ashaman, of which other than the bad guys we had a few named, Androl was one, and BS developed him.  Nor am I convinced that another Ashaman (Flinn, Narishma, Grady) would have worked as well stealing back the seals, they have no connection to Logain, why would they take the seals back to him instead of their AS colleagues?  It's possible that Androl took the jobs of 2 or more other Ashaman (that RJ may have written), but I feel that trying to use an 'established' Ashaman would be trying to force them into the story.

 

The problem is that your basically lowering Logain's faction to being the 5 people that Sanderson wrote about, Logain had dozens of followers.  The only justification was to give him a ridiculous backstory of being some well traveled guy who saw it all a combination of Jain Farstrider and Guaire Amalasan.  When Sanderson got through with Logain he was a pathetic wretch who was flat out handed glory.  Imagine if Sanderson wrote the White Tower arc like that with some previously minor Aes Sedai all of a sudden mounting a rescue, holding off the Seanchan by herself without any help from anyone and then telling the Tower Aes Sedai that the only person who can be Amyrlin is Egwene.  The Egwene fans would throw down the book and tell Harriet to fire Sanderson and yet thats what we got in this book.  Some previously barely mentioned character is all of a sudden revealed to be the greatest Asha'man of them all better than both Taim and Logain, not only does he single handily win back the Black Tower, but he defeated two forsaken at the same time causing them to run.  The only reason his not the leader is because for some reason he wants Logain to be the leader despite being a complete loser.

 

I wanted to read about Logain not the Sanderson Reborn.

 

You cant write about how some character is going to do some great thing and then 15 years later you end the series with the character not having done the great thing you spent 10 books talking about.  

 

I literally laughed out loud when the seal breaking scene happened because the fact that Sanderson tried to make it some big deal was hilarious.  You might as well of had Almen Bunt destroy them with a shovel.  

 

 

Brilliant absolutely brilliant!!

 

someone send this post to maria and sanderson

+1

+2

 

Charred Knight - You misunderstood what I meant (or didn't and are blaming BS for a plot development that was initiated by RJ).

 

Logains glory had nothing to do with the Last Battle and I'm pretty sure that that's an RJ descision.  It's similar to Mins viewing of Sheriam bathed in silver and blue with a golden flash...  which referred to her exectution.  Logains viewing was set up to have us believe that he would be important in the Last Battle, but we (as readers) were wrong.  This was never intended to be the case.  Imo adding in Logain 'stuff' at the Last Battle would have confused the issue.  So the resolution of this arc is not BS 'fault', but the readers expectations being wrong (I also thought he'd take out Taim (at the least), I was pleasently surprised to be wrong).

 

Androl is then a seperate issue, since he did not steal anything from Logain.  There are hundreds of Ashaman at the BT, but none of them had been developed by RJ, we know that there are lads from the 2R (recently arrived), the Lord bloke (forget the name) that resisted 2 attempts at turning, a few others that were named by RJ including Androl - but none have developed characters, so whoever BS chose would have become a BS creation.  The resolution of the BT arc (or at least as far as Logains rescue) had to use BT Ashaman, since the BT timeline is so far behind all the 'developed' (character wise) Ashaman are elsewhere.  There is then a seperate plot to do with retrieving the seals, which technically any Ashaman could have done, but I feel would be 'forced' as none have a reason to take the seals to Logain, whereas Androl and co do.  It could have been another random Ashaman from the BT, but then we have either 2 new characters with important roles developed by BS for the last few books, or 2 random characters with no character thrown in by BS in the last 2 books, I don't see how either of these are an improvement.

 

I also think that comments like "The only reason his not the leader is because for some reason he wants Logain to be the leader despite being a complete loser" completely underestimate the strength of character that Logain shows at multiple times throughout the story.  The reason he's head of the BT is because instead of chasing his own power when healed, he goes to the BT and becomes the Champion of the non-Taim forces (voluntarily takes a place as number 3 male channeler, until he realises there are problems with Taim), because despite being captured (which happens to most of the main characters throughout the series, so hardly something you can blame him for) and attempts made to turn him, he still chooses to defend those weaker than himself instead.  Does he have issues with saidin insanity, PTS after being gentled, attempted to turn, well yes - but this is precisely what makes him a believable character.

 

 

Do you guys really think that Taim's demise by Egwene's hand wasn't mandated by RJ? Yes, everybody expected Logain to have the honors, but wouldn't it have been very predictable and boring?

 

And as has been mentioned, Flinn and Narishma don't fit because they are not _in _ the Black Tower and don't know any of the recruits who arrived after Dumai's Wells! Not to mention that they had very little characterization and their AS even less.

 

RJ sent a fairly established character like Pevara to the BT for a reason, IMHO. She was always supposed to be heavily involved in this storyline. And since none of "established" Asha'man could be her partner(s), there was always supposed to be somebody new involved.

 

Re: Logain's faction, everybody who bonded an AS was assigned to tasks outside of the BT as of KoD, while remaining people were whittled down by the Turning. The 5 guys we saw most of were just the hard core of the conspiracy, and they were in the end saved by the unnamed mass of Logain's men. It was the arrival of these men that caused Taim to flee in the end, not Androl's gateways. Logain could have done more in this fight, maybe, even though it was realistic that he couldn't. Ditto Androl's group other than himself. I was expecting Pevara to link with him and maybe Emarin to give him the boost to overcome the ter'angreal.

 

IMHO, the main problem of the BT storyline is that it was put on the back-burner by RJ in favor of far more boring and in the end much less relevant plots... And Sanderson followed suit by cramming all of it into AMoL - for shock value? Instead of distributing it over 3 last volumes, which would have allowed for more organic developement.

 

I agree with most of what you say, but my understanding is (rightly or wrongly) that the reason that the BT stuff was pushed out of ToM was because of a deadline problem.  I think that many of the problems I have with aMoL would have been dealt with if BS had been able to write the entire story, and then the 3 were edited together to form one long story (but probably shorter than the 3 books on their own), unfortunately TOR didn't feel able to do this and I think the story suffered for it.  Androl would certainly do better if his actions were split into 2 books, Logains rescue in ToM, seals in aMoL.

[sleepinghour]

IMHO, the main problem of the BT storyline is that it was put on the back-burner by RJ in favor of far more boring and in the end much less relevant plots... And Sanderson followed suit by cramming all of it into AMoL - for shock value? Instead of distributing it over 3 last volumes, which would have allowed for more organic developement.

 

The BT storyline was supposed to have gone into ToM, but didn't make the deadline.

 

 

Brandon: You're right on the Black Tower structural weakness. I actually plotted that sequence to go all in Towers of Midnight, but ran up against deadlines and only did a few chapters of it. It would work far better moved earlier.

[Elan Tedronai]

And whose fault was that?

 

 

we had plenty of morgase tea drinking. We had plenty of egwene out manoevering the hall yet again. We had plenty of galad and perrin useless stories.

 

 

But not enough for the black tower storyline. makes sense mr sanderson. wrong priorties.as per usual.

 

 

did anyone even think this guy did justice to the phrase 'the black tower will be rent in fire and blood and sisters walk its grounds'

[Suttree]

 

IMHO, the main problem of the BT storyline is that it was put on the back-burner by RJ in favor of far more boring and in the end much less relevant plots... And Sanderson followed suit by cramming all of it into AMoL - for shock value? Instead of distributing it over 3 last volumes, which would have allowed for more organic developement.

Actually it's worse than that. Sanderson wasn't far enough along with it so it got moved from ToM to AMoL due to deadlines. I still have trouble wrapping my head around deadlines taking precedent over what was best for the story. We all saw what rushing ToM did to the quality of that book.

[futurehermit]

I don't care whether it was RJ or BS, Logain's glory being foreshadowed for years and years and then happening off-screen while doing next to nothing during the freakin' LAST BATTLE is lame imo

[Charred Knight]

Androl is then a seperate issue, since he did not steal anything from Logain.  There are hundreds of Ashaman at the BT, but none of them had been developed by RJ, we know that there are lads from the 2R (recently arrived), the Lord bloke (forget the name) that resisted 2 attempts at turning, a few others that were named by RJ including Androl - but none have developed characters, so whoever BS chose would have become a BS creation.  The resolution of the BT arc (or at least as far as Logains rescue) had to use BT Ashaman, since the BT timeline is so far behind all the 'developed' (character wise) Ashaman are elsewhere.  There is then a seperate plot to do with retrieving the seals, which technically any Ashaman could have done, but I feel would be 'forced' as none have a reason to take the seals to Logain, whereas Androl and co do.  It could have been another random Ashaman from the BT, but then we have either 2 new characters with important roles developed by BS for the last few books, or 2 random characters with no character thrown in by BS in the last 2 books, I don't see how either of these are an improvement.

 

I also think that comments like "The only reason his not the leader is because for some reason he wants Logain to be the leader despite being a complete loser" completely underestimate the strength of character that Logain shows at multiple times throughout the story.  The reason he's head of the BT is because instead of chasing his own power when healed, he goes to the BT and becomes the Champion of the non-Taim forces (voluntarily takes a place as number 3 male channeler, until he realises there are problems with Taim), because despite being captured (which happens to most of the main characters throughout the series, so hardly something you can blame him for) and attempts made to turn him, he still chooses to defend those weaker than himself instead.  Does he have issues with saidin insanity, PTS after being gentled, attempted to turn, well yes - but this is precisely what makes him a believable character.

 

Except you dont have to choose anyone, you do the BT as a group.  When you have a cast of hundreds of people you dont have one guy do everything while the other hundreds of people wander off so the reader forgets they exist (this is a huge problem with the BT portion of the book were its hard to remember that there are still members of Logain's faction out there since they are never mentioned).  That was the problem I had with the end of the White Tower arc were the storyline simply came down to basically Egwene doing everything while the rest of the Aes Sedai came off like gawking morons.  Which came back to bite the series in its butt when they killed off Egwene leading to the next Amyrlin being revealed in a comedy segment because RJ and BS never made an adequate replacement.

 

Here's the thing if the plan all along was to make Logain this guy who gets glory by being the man destined to lead the Asha'man into the new era then the reader needs to feel like Logain is that leader.  Instead BS confuses leadership with being a nice guy and feels like adding "Sealbreaker" will have meaning when Logain didnt even do anything to get the seals back in the first place.  Yes Logain is a nice guy that was made clear in the previous books were he frequently comes off as a nice guy.  Sanderson added nothing that wasnt already there he just had Logain fall and then get back to were he was in Path of Daggers.

 

Logain needed to show leadership in this book but instead the guy whos shown leading the Asha'am is Androl, Logain is leader in name only, any scene were an Asha'man needs to rally the troops that person is always Androl.  Whenever someone defends Sanderson they always point to events that Jordan wrote like how Logain went to the Asha'man and rallied  a bunch of them to oppose Taim.  Sanderson on the other hand simply came off as a guy who was completely uninterested in Logain and the characters Jordan had created (outside of Pevara) so he wrote a replacement main character for the BT arc.

 

What the Black Tower portion of this book should have been was about Logain showing that his worthy of leading the Asha'man that, he was going to take control of the male channelers and forge them into a path for good.  The simple fact is that we dont get that, Androl is the one who shows his worthy of being the leader of the Asha'man, wereas Logain shows us that his not like Taim (which we knew already).  We didnt need Logain to have some huge battle were he defeats Taim and then throngs of people chant his name but we at least needed to see that Logain was capable of being the equal to Egwene.