Moiraine's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Edynol]

I think Moiraine definitely should have come back from the Finns with the conclusive knowledge that Callandor could magnify the TP and that they could use it to trap a man in a circle.

 

That would have justified her absence from these books for so long.

Actually, I think she did know.  I don't know if I missed it, but I didn't see any information on how Rand found out it could do that.  He just suddenly knew it magnified the True Power, and I didn't see anyone tell him or how he discovered that.  So maybe Mo told him off screen?

[Grr Aaargh]

@orient True enough; I guess I'm just so dissatisfied with the lack of Moiraine in this book that I'm just grumpily trying to poke holes in everything, sorry! It's probably time for me to get over this book and get back to my life.

 

@papertiger Yes, absolutely. AND we should have seen what Moiraine and Nynaeve were up to before Shayol Ghul, while Elayne and Lan and Egwene were busy chopping lots of Trollocs into little pieces. One well-written scene with my two favorite female characters would have gone a long way to make up for all the bad writing elsewhere, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who feels that way.

[papertiger]

@Grr Aaargh

@Edynol

 

Exactly!

 

I know they were pressed for time, but with a series that was so devoted to its characters, they could have included one powerful scene where Moiraine and Nynaeve and Rand have a huddle before striking out for Shayol Ghul. All the character foundations are there; we just needed a well-written scene that served to remind us all why we loved these people and how they were going to go about taking on the DO.

 

I don't think it's asking too much. 

[clu7ch]

Lets look at it this way:

Mo is, even with her Angreal, an at best, above average channeler in the ring. Sure, against your run of the mill dreadlords she'd probably be just fine a match, but that's not what we deserve. We didn't wait all that time for our favorite Aes Sedai to blow up a few dreadlords. It's not proper, and it's not her style. She doesn't have the weight to throw around the ring like the other supergirls do. Moiraine played one of the most important roles in the series. She helped seal the bore. 

How is that not an important Arc. 

 

I'd still give Mat's other eye to know what she asked of the snakes and foxes, unless i just missed it in the book. 

[Edynol]

Lets look at it this way:

Mo is, even with her Angreal, an at best, above average channeler in the ring. Sure, against your run of the mill dreadlords she'd probably be just fine a match, but that's not what we deserve. We didn't wait all that time for our favorite Aes Sedai to blow up a few dreadlords. It's not proper, and it's not her style. She doesn't have the weight to throw around the ring like the other supergirls do. Moiraine played one of the most important roles in the series. She helped seal the bore. 

 

How is that not an important Arc. 

 

I'd still give Mat's other eye to know what she asked of the snakes and foxes, unless i just missed it in the book. 

I think I know.  We all know one was the angreal.  And in response to the bold, the angreal is almost powerful enough to be a sa'angreal and with it, she is much more powerful than she was before unaided. This is the angreal.

 

The next two are just educated guesses, but I think one was a full understanding of the prophecies, which she demonstrated at the Meeting at FOM.  The other was information about callandor, I think.  Which she passed along to Rand off-screen and is how he knew it could amplify the True Power and force Moridin into a link.

[clu7ch]

lol everything seems to go back to Callandor, which is my one super annoyance right now. (it's been posted elsewhere by yours truly, but it just doesn't make sense how a TP sa'angeral could have been made by goodguys) 

[Edynol]

Well, I don't think it was done on purpose.  The way I understand it is that without the buffer, which is its first flaw, it not only allows someone to draw an unsafe amount of the power, but also magnifies the taint.  So if it magnifies the taint, it makes since it would magnifie the source of the taint, the TP.  The second flaw is the forced linking.

 

This also raises a question, Eggy's sa'angreal, which suddenly has no buffer either, could it also magnify the TP?  Heheheh.  I wonder what would happen if Mogie got a hold of it.  XD

[clu7ch]

Good catch. kudos. 

[balefireruinssteaks]

I know this may sound weird but I thought it was strange that in all the other scenes where a channeler had a sa'angreal or angreal, it was mentioned.  Nyneave's collection of angreal, Cadsuane's angreal (it even gets mentioned by Aviendha in the later chapters of AMOL), Graendal's ring angreal, Egwene's sa'angreal, etc.  So Moiraine gets this bracelet powerful angrael which allows her to overcome her handicap of having been drained by making her even more powerful than she was before...and it's not even mentioned.  No "Moiraine was dressed in blue silks, a crystal hanging on her forehead and a white bracelet around her wrist" or something.  I just thought it was a writing oversight/inconsistency.  Did no one else notice that she was channeling more of the Power than she could normally?

[sleepinghour]

Moiraine gets this bracelet powerful angrael which allows her to overcome her handicap of having been drained by making her even more powerful than she was before...and it's not even mentioned.  No "Moiraine was dressed in blue silks, a crystal hanging on her forehead and a white bracelet around her wrist" or something.  I just thought it was a writing oversight/inconsistency.

 

It was mentioned, though Moiraine wasn't wearing it at the time.

 

“I tried,” Flinn said desperately, looking at Rand. “Nynaeve did, too. Together, we tried, with Moiraine Sedai’s angreal. Nothing worked. Nobody knows how to save him.”

 

[Edynol]

She was wearing it.  Check my last post on the previous page.  The powerful angreal is an ivory bracelet.  Ivory is white.

[papertiger]

As far as Vora and Moghedien, that wretch would have found some way to mess it up, I'm sure.

 

Moggy holds up the most powerful female sa'angreal in existence triumphantly, then either gets burned out because there's no buffer or else gets drawn into an involuntary circle by Nynaeve and Elayne, who just happen to be walking by at the time.

 

It would just be another version of the same recurring gag throughout the series. That woman can do NOTHING right!

[papertiger]

Yeah, I didn't even notice the bracelet. Little details like that just slide on by during a marathon reading session.

[BFG]

 

 

@orient I don't have the book on me right now, but was Moiraine even able to use that convenient angreal of hers at Shayol Ghul? I remember Cadsuane made Nynaeve take hers off at the Cleansing because she couldn't use it and the Choedan Kal simultaneously.

 

Hmm I don't recall them saying one way or another in aMoL, but surely Nynaeve at the Cleansing was a different case. In that one Nynaeve would have to use 2 items at the same time; here Moiraine would simply have to use an angreal and join in a circle with someone using a sa'angreal (Moridin using Callandor).

 

It's not explicitly stated of course, so I could be just making up my own explanation.

I think the cleansing was more to do with the fact that Nyn through using the Choedan Kal was already wielding imense amounts of Power, her own angreal wouldn't have added much or made much difference, whereas lending the angreal out to 1 of the defenders would make a huge difference (and did). I don't think it's that you can't wield more than 1 at a time, more that in that situation it was pointless.

[sleepinghour]

She was wearing it.  Check my last post on the previous page.  The powerful angreal is an ivory bracelet.  Ivory is white.

 

"Moiraine was dressed in blue silks, a crystal hanging on her forehead and a white bracelet around her wrist" wasn't an actual quote from the book; balefireruinssteaks made that up.

.

[Celebel]

 

The next two are just educated guesses, but I think one was a full understanding of the prophecies, which she demonstrated at the Meeting at FOM. The other was information about callandor, I think. Which she passed along to Rand off-screen and is how he knew it could amplify the True Power and force Moridin into a link.

Alas, Rand's plan was already complete before Moiraine's reappearance and it was mentioned that _Min_ was the one that somehow figured it out about Callandor and the TP. So, no.

If understanding of the prophecies was her boon, it just makes her look dumb compared to Min/Cadsuane.

 

It is also false that Moiraine was the only other woman whom Rand could trust in a link, because :

 

a. as long as Nynaeve was in control of the link trust in the second woman wouldn't have particularly mattered and

b. since Rand could now detect DFs, why wouldn't he trust somebody like Amys, for example? Since the emotional aspects of the link didn't play any role in his struggles anway.

 

I also hated how she ran away from the cave, leaving Rand behind and, despite being an expert at reading people didn't notice that something wasn't right with reactions of his 3 women to his death.

 

So, yeah, IMHO Moiraine's return was terribly, terribly botched. Both in terms of plot importance and of emotional pay-off. She is my favorite WoT character and now I wish that she had remained dead, her memory providing inspiration to the characters, rather than becoming a travesty of herself.

 

BTW, wasn't "letting go" Moiraine's arc in TFoH? Wouldn't it have made vastly more sense if she was the one to teach this lesson to Rand and if her presence in the link helped him to go through with it?

[Edynol]

Sorry, but hardly any of what you said is accurate.  Min may have discovered the part about the forced linking, but not about the TP.  We don't know how Rand learned about the TP because it happened off screen.  I believe it equally possible he came to the conclusion on his own that if it magnified the taint it would do so with the TP, like I did over at Theoryland and got burned for because, quote "there is no angreal for the TP".

 

Also, of course emotional links didn't come into play with the linking, it has nothing to do with that.  He needed someone he could trust not to get in his way and let him do what he needed to do without trying to distract him by saying, "You can't do that" or something.  Moiraine and Nynaeve were the two he trusted the most that were not leading battles.  And they trusted him right back.  Yes, they called him out when he was being stupid, but they still trusted him and he them.  Also, out of everyone else aside from his girls, they never went against him or treated him like he was crazy or some ignorant child like the Wise Ones and others did.

 

As for her not noticing Rand's girl acting strange, how do you know she didn't?  We didn't get a POV from her after that.  She very well may have.  Hell I wouldn't put it past her helping them set the whole thing up.

 

And about her being the first telling him to let go, that was a long time ago and Rand hardly listened to her back then.  The way Tam did it was a lot more meaningful because if you think about it, he started that lesson long before Moiraine, it was part of the Flame and the Void.  Him teaching that to Rand during their sparing was him continuing that lesson.  It makes perfect sense.  The Flame and the Void is a thing of men, and a man can identify with it more.  And who else would Rand Identify with more than his father?

[Celebel]

We don't know how Rand learned about the TP because it happened off screen.

 

 

 

 Also, of course emotional links didn't come into play with the linking, it has nothing to do with that. 

 

Ii thought that it is mentioned somewhere that after having channeled TP Rand could recognize Callandor as a TP sa'angreal, like channelers are able to recognise OP angreals? In any case, Moiraine had nothing to do with it - Rand's plans were already made. As to emotional sharing in the link - it might have provided an explanation why having Moiraine in there was so much preferrable to having another trustworthy channeler, if her unwavering determination had helped Rand at some point where he might have otherwise faltered, but that was not the case. In fact this aspect was completely forgotten.

 

As for her not noticing Rand's girl acting strange, how do you know she didn't?  We didn't get a POV from her after that.  She very well may have.  Hell I wouldn't put it past her helping them set the whole thing up.

 

Then Moiraine should have been shown waving him on rather than Cadsuane.

 

And about her being the first telling him to le The way Tam did it was a lot more meaningful because if you think about it, he started that lesson long before Moiraine, it was part of the Flame and the Void.  Him teaching that to Rand during their sparing was him continuing that lesson. ?

 

then why was it Moiraine who was supposed to be so crucial to Rand's success that her rescue was equated with saving the world, that it was worth risking Mat? The way it turned out, Tam was far, far more important. Not to mention that Moiraine's having to "let go" in TFoH and to trust in her protegees was very, very similar to what Rand had to do in the end. It would have fit beautifully. Yes, it wouldn't have come in the form of a sparring lesson - but when you think about it, there was no need for it to be.

 

Sword duel with Moridin was ridiculous nonsense - Moridin was never shown as somebody who cared about sword-fighting in the least in the previous books. In AMoL, every male Forsaken is suddenly a swordsman, when it used to be that only Sammael and Bel'al were. Asmodean, in fact, was shown to be completely inept. Etc.

 

This is the thing - one has to contrive and invent stuff to somehow glean a shred of Moiraine's importance or presence as a character. After all the waiting, after all the build-up it shouldn't have been so. Getting her back should have felt satisfying rather than a competely pefrunctiary crossing off of yet another bullet-point.

[Edynol]

Ii thought that it is mentioned somewhere that after having channeled TP Rand could recognize Callandor as a TP sa'angreal, like channelers are able to recognise OP angreals? In any case, Moiraine had nothing to do with it - Rand's plans were already made. As to emotional sharing in the link - it might have provided an explanation why having Moiraine in there was so much preferrable to having another trustworthy channeler, if her unwavering determination had helped Rand at some point where he might have otherwise faltered, but that was not the case. In fact this aspect was completely forgotten.

 

She had to be rescued mainly because of what she did at FOM.  If it weren't for her, either Rand would have broken the seals at the wrong time or Eggy wouldn't have broken them at all.  Also, her reciting the prophecies was pivatol to everyone agreeing to the Dragon's Peace.  Believe it or not, she kept Rand and Eggy both from doing some pretty stupid stuff.  If not for her, it is very likely the meeting at FOM would have fell apart.  And it almost did.  Rand pretty much said to hell with everyone and was leaving, then Moiraine showed up and put everything back together.  So with out her, all the forces of the light would have been divided and not had stood a chance.  That is pretty darn major if you ask me.

Then Moiraine should have been shown waving him on rather than Cadsuane.

 

That's just silly grasping at straws.

then why was it Moiraine who was supposed to be so crucial to Rand's success that her rescue was equated with saving the world, that it was worth risking Mat? The way it turned out, Tam was far, far more important. Not to mention that Moiraine's having to "let go" in TFoH and to trust in her protegees was very, very similar to what Rand had to do in the end. It would have fit beautifully. Yes, it wouldn't have come in the form of a sparring lesson - but when you think about it, there was no need for it to be.

 

Same as previously stated.

 

Sword duel with Moridin was ridiculous nonsense - Moridin was never shown as somebody who cared about sword-fighting in the least in the previous books. In AMoL, every male Forsaken is suddenly a swordsman, when it used to be that only Sammael and Bel'al were. Asmodean, in fact, was shown to be completely inept. Etc.

 

There first two duels were with swords.  There 3rd was mixed sword fighting and channeling.  Then Ishy became Moridin.  So if you're saying he never cared about sword fighting, you must not have read the first three books.

 

This is the thing - one has to contrive and invent stuff to somehow glean a shred of Moiraine's importance or presence as a character. After all the waiting, after all the build-up it shouldn't have been so. Getting her back should have felt satisfying rather than a competely pefrunctiary crossing off of yet another bullet-point.

 

I contrive and invent nothing.  I admitted the part about callandor and TP stuff being only a possibility because no one knows for sure.  As for her being in the link at the end, everyone else Rand fully trusted was needed else where, but with Moiraine back, he had the 2nd person he needed.  He always counted on Nyn being there, but he wasn't sure who he wanted to be the second person.  I think he was pulling towards Avi, but then when Mo showed up, he could leave Avi to work with the other Wise Ones.  And if Mo hadn't been there, and he decided to take Avi, Greandal would have made a huge mess of things.  If it were somebody other than Avi there at the end, they wouldn't have thought of the gateway trick and been compulsed.  So yeah, her just being made a huge difference in how things turned out.

[Tsukibana]

General Consensus: Moiraine got the short-end of the pen.

 

Mat's answer: Give up half the light of the world to save the world; NOT ... to defeat the Shadow.

I think the world would have indeed ended had the armies failed to unite. Still, I want to smack Sandrol's hand and

say "Bad!!"

[Tsukibana]

@Edynol:

Ishy was the Mat of the shadow-side, remember?

(A farmboy with a stick!) Ishy should've had a staff.

[Grr Aaargh]

Edynol, you are correct about the battles in Falme and Tear, but on pretty much all the other points, I think Celebel is quite right.

 

I've written about this before, but I think the FOM debacle was not a particularly plausible scene. Although the setup of the conflict was clear in ToM, the dialogue between Rand and Egwene at Merrilor was childish, it ignored about 10 volumes' worth of character development, the characters' voices were not distinctively their own. Moiraine did not speak in her own voice in that scene either - she mainly stuck to quoting from the Prophecies. There were no revelations; she did not have very much to say that we did not all know already.

 

Besides, how were Rand or Egwene supposed to break the seals at the right time or the wrong time? They didn't have the seals at all, as it turned out :)

 

Let me put it another way: this is fiction. The reason we are debating this is because you find the fiction that Moiraine kept Egwene and Rand from acting like idiots at Merrilor plausible; I do not. I think it is a poorly written bit of narrative that is inconsistent with what we know of all three characters concerned.

[Grr Aaargh]

@Celebel I love your argument about Moiraine's "letting go" in TFoH mirroring Rand's development here. Very convincing. I wish it had gone that way. Unlike most people, it seems, I didn't particularly like that scene with Tam. Last Battle or no Last Battle, the book did not need to be only and exclusively about people waving swords. 

[RelentlessAttack]

Like everything else, Merrilor was executed in an extremely sloppy way.  However, I imagine that in Jordan's notes that was indeed the essence of Moiraine's role - to help convince Rand to completely embrace his true destiny in a way that even post VoG he still didn't understand (leave the battle, face the DO immediately, trust in the strength of those who follow you), and to help unite the nations (and Egwene) behind the dragon.  It was written horribly, but had it been written well, I don't see that as a small role.

[Grr Aaargh]

@Relentless Now that is pure speculation on your part, of course. We all had different expectations. For instance, I had been hoping that Moiraine would actually be the one to lead the circle at Shayol Ghul and re-imprison the DO. Using special knowledge from the Finns, of course.   But if the book had provided me with a convincing alternative, I guess I could have settled for something less. Now, I'm just grumpy.