Mat's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[bimber]

Ok maybe i missed something or just dont get it...but Mat was told he was considered to be part of the team to be one of the heroes of the Horn but got turned down...
why was he turned down? ok i know he said i he was happy not to be one of them but still some reason as to why would be nice

[flinn]

Ok maybe i missed something or just dont get it...but Mat was told he was considered to be part of the team to be one of the heroes of the Horn but got turned down...

why was he turned down? ok i know he said i he was happy not to be one of them but still some reason as to why would be nice

 Where did you read that?

 

 I remember Mat asking if he was tied to them and they said he had done enough to be a Hero of the Horn and they were not sure why he was not. He said because I dont want to be.

[Edynol]

I think it has to do with him being more than that.  Like with the Dragon, the Dragon is a Hero, just not one that can be summoned by the Horn.

[bimber]

ok had to dig it up to make sure of the wording if i might have gotten it wrong...

Hend said: be at ease. Though you have done more than enough to earn a place, you have not been chosen. I do not know why...

Maybe because i dont like the idea of having to hop whenever anyone blows on that bloody instrument..

Maybe! Hend grinned and galloped...

kind of implies to me that he was considered to join them, never thought of it before but could it be that free will is also considered if someone is to be joined to them? like Mat not really wanting to be? or maybe its more connected to who Mat really is?

[Sabio]

I have to say, I appreciated the use of Hinderstrap as a tactic. It had a point! Bloody brilliant.

 

I thought this was the most hilarious part of the book! The sheer shock and horror for the DF's as they see the SAME crazy villagers running toward them again...

I agree, I loved that also the plus that anyone killed there would keep adding to their numbers.

[flinn]

 

I have to say, I appreciated the use of Hinderstrap as a tactic. It had a point! Bloody brilliant.

 

I thought this was the most hilarious part of the book! The sheer shock and horror for the DF's as they see the SAME crazy villagers running toward them again...

I agree, I loved that also the plus that anyone killed there would keep adding to their numbers.

 I am really glad there was a point to it. I hated Hinderstrap originally. Of course mostly because Mat was so far off his normal character, but either way I couldnt get past it fast enough. 

[ezaine]

The whole Tuon - Mat relationship was horrible, and this is clearly RJ's fault.

 

Tuon is a person deeply into psycopathy. An authoritarian dictator who cares only for her one glorification. Can go on a long tangent trying to justify this, but she is what she is, and Egwene was right to put her in her place. She actually reminds me a lot of Joffrey from Song Fire and Ice, the only differenct is perspective and George Martin's writing is more grim. But the same idea is there, someone raised to by a psycopathic dictator, and who acts with cruelty for no reason except own glorifiation.

 

What are some of Tuon's actions:

1) ordering a random person put to death based on very little (yes, it was reversed, but it shows her personality)

2) slavery, not just Damene, Min apparently also (what difference does it make if she is to be an honored slave, and this just shows her attitidue torwards everyone)

3) randomly changing people's names - What type of person does that

4) willingness to abandon the Last Battle (anything good Tuon does, is only b/c she is convinced it's good for her to do it)

 

Everyone knows Tuon is insane, including Mat, as he even says.

 

So RJ's basic idea is that the gambler/joker archtype is going to fall in love with a psycopathic toltolertarian dictator.

 

This never made any sense, and the whole plotline was a mess long before Sanderson took over. The basic way this was written is that anytime there is a conflict between who Mat is, and what he would do, and the plot, then all of a sudden Mat will just get all stupid because the plot says so.

 

For example, the marriage. Why does Mat honor this?

You can't just walk up to someone and say "according to my culture, we're marriage, so we are marriage." I mean, why would Mat agree to this. What would anyone agree to this, but Mat certainly won't.

 

What could Mat possibly find attractive in Tuon? Well, nothing, but then when this problem comes up, there is some lines about how he finds something attractive.

 

RJ had this problem with other relationships, where to people just fall in love, and we're supposed to buy it because he says so. We don't see them fall in love, we don't see their personalities fit, we don't see a relationshp develop. Oh, no, they are just in love b/c RJ says they are. But when it happens to Siuan, it's not a big deal, because the idiocy isn't in our face, we don't see so much of that, or or Moraine and Thom, or even Nyneave and Lan, we can accept it's off screen, but with Mat it's all on screen and so stupid.

 

It's very much like Anakin and Pademe in Star Wars Prequal, the worst, most awful, unrealistic couple in history of cineme. Anakin tells Pademe that he killed a bunch of people, supports dictatorship, and only bitches about himself, but she loves him b/c the plot says so. Tuon is crazy psycho bitch, but even though Mat wants nothing to do with people like her, he loves he b/c the plot says so.

 

Oddly, the whole Mat/Tuon thing wasn't needed, the entire plot played very little into the story. Mat was supposedly the Prince of Ravens, but most of Last Battle he was general and no Seachan there. Tuon only entered war for her own advantage, and it had nothing to do with Mat. Mat had no real motive to abonden all his friends, the Band, and participating in the Last Battle, to warn Tuon. (as if she didn't know certain people would try to kill her). But b/c the plot says so Mat becomes all stupid.

 

And then later on, b/c the plot says so Min becomes all stupid.

 

I loved rest of book, but this plotline was bad, and pointless. I think RJ had a bad idea, and then just forced it into books.

[XXX]

Sanderson does not know how to write Mat.Made him a complete cartoon by the end of the book.

 

Why would Mat go south in the beginning of the book to escape the last battle when he made a deal with Elayne saying that he will have to be free to fight for Rand.Also he wants the horn in ToM but then he wants to avoid the fighting in AMOL?

[Sabio]

What are some of Tuon's actions:

1) ordering a random person put to death based on very little (yes, it was reversed, but it shows her personality)

You are a ruler of a nation where assassination is common place.  If you had an idea of who might challenge your rule in the future, wouldn't you put an end to it now rather then risk you being overthrown later?  Too be honest I laughed my butt of when that happened.

 

2) slavery, not just Damene, Min apparently also (what difference does it make if she is to be an honored slave, and this just shows her attitidue torwards everyone)

Mat commented how she is safer with Tuon, then running messages back and forth.  I am sure had she been in danger Mat would of saved her.  Mat also wanted her to look afetr Tuon. 

 

3) randomly changing people's names - What type of person does that

Its their custom, if you are raised to the blood and get important posts, you take a new name.

 

4) willingness to abandon the Last Battle (anything good Tuon does, is only b/c she is convinced it's good for her to do it)

Arrogance, I am sure most seachen truely believe in that whole ever victorous army mumbo jumbo.  So it isn't far fetched that she might of been considering letting the other nations weaken themselves and then they come in and mop up the weakened shadow army and then all the land would be theirs.  How was Elayne different, last battle is nar and she was worried about grabbing Cairthien, and why to strengthen her rule for after the last battle.  Rand made everyone sign the treaty becuase he knew they would al lbe looking to carve out larger empires afterword.

 

In some ways Tuon is still a child, her whole life has been dedicated to the empire.  She is basically a dictator who's word is law and everyone even your own family is trying to kill you.  She was never raised to care for anyone, anyone might be a seeker or a possible assassin.  You basically put a child in charge of a whole nation and who answers to nobody, of course she will do whatever she wants and not care for anybody.

[ezaine]

Yes, we can look at Tuon from her point of view, or anyone else's point of view.

 

Ok, we can understand it's their custom to give people new names, but why does Min just go along with it based on very little.

 

There is a big difference between how Sanderson wrote Mat, and the plot give by RJ.

 

Mat's trip to Ebou Dar made no sense. It was already several books ago that he realized to accept his fate, and so what has to be done. Then before last battle he's going to abandon everything, and just leave Rand (like it's book 5). But somehow, he just wants to risk his life and go to Tuon. RJ's plot outline with Mat made very little sense. I think it was supposed to be humorous, Mat falling in love with a crazy authoritarian dictorator, but the only way to make it work was for Mat to suddenly act all stupid and out of character in order to advance the plot.

 

The whole Mat - Tuon thing was for what? to get the Seachan into the war? and to get Mat to lead them as their general?

But then it wasn't Mat who got them to fight the last battle. It was Rand who stopped their advance in Path of Daggers, and Rand who made the deal in Memory of Light. At what point does Tuon consider Mat to be part of any decisions?

 

Also, after all this Mat's role during Last Battle is primarily not Prince of Ravens.

 

It would have made a lot more sense for Mat to go back to leading Band of Red Hand. They perform so brilliantly, that he is elevated to General after the fall of the 4 great Captains.

 

But the whole Tuon - Mat thing never made any sense to me. I don't see what's different here than in previous books with Tuon, and Sanderson didn't write those.

[ezaine]

Ultimatly, this is the big problem.

 

If we are to accept that Mat is somehow in love with Tuon, there has to be some reason. What part of Mat's personality would lead to this? What events have Mat and Tuon gone through that cement this relationship?

 

well, none. Seriously, can anyone list 1 single thing that Mat could possibly find attractive in Tuon (besides physical)? He's not even the type to be attracted to her position.

 

But anyone can list a dozen reasons why Mat would want nothing to do with her.

 

I also don't like this being explained with Ta'veren. Ta'veren wasn't a bad idea to include in wheel of time, but I don't like being used as get out of jail free card for bad writing. the sort of thing where a charater just acts all stupid and out of character because of Ta'veren.

[morkhon]

Sanderson does not know how to write Mat.Made him a complete cartoon by the end of the book.

 

Why would Mat go south in the beginning of the book to escape the last battle when he made a deal with Elayne saying that he will have to be free to fight for Rand.Also he wants the horn in ToM but then he wants to avoid the fighting in AMOL?

I think he did a better job in this book than in the ToM and TGS. The horribly written letter he spelled was just stupid. His humor took on that of a child. He was always...cocky and a bit on the immature side, but I felt like RJ always respected the character. Brandon, I felt, treated him like a clown. Mat always had a strange sense of humor, extreme cockiness, and had a unique view of authority. But when RJ was writing him I just always felt he was a solid character. Quirky and eccentric, yes...but there was still an edge and a seriousness. Reading the last three books, he become more of a slapstick comedy. 

 

But that's just how I see it.

[hime]

What could Mat possibly find attractive in Tuon? Well, nothing, but then when this problem comes up, there is some lines about how he finds something attractive.

I believe that Mat loves Tuon simply because she is his wife. I know that to some people the idea of arranged marriage is strange or even wrong, but it is more common than you think. and when a man finds himself in a similar situation(a forced marriage without the possibility of divorce) , he has two options, he can either ignore the whole thing, run away and forget that he has a wife somewhere, or he can stay and try to make his marriage work despite his lack of feelings. Mat chose to do the responsible thing by trying to make Tuon love him so their marriage can work out,he sidestepped some of her flaws and started gradually convincing himself that she looks beautiful and such, Mat is simply attached to the women he will spend his life with, and that makes sense to me.

I'm not sure RJ thought it out like that, But for me Toun & Mat, while far from perfect, are the most intriguing couple in the series, because next to Rand being in love with three women at the same time, Mat loving Toun seam very normal. Besides, judging from the way selucia and karade feel about Toun, she could be what passes for popular among her people, I personally like her but mostly because unlike other women in the series, she has her strange upbringing as an excuse for her selfish behavior.

[papertiger]

Sometimes I think I'm the only person who's read WOT who actually doesn't mind Tuon. I think most of the people who don't like Tuon despise her for her culture or perhaps the dopey name. Also, it's hard to fall on her side after Mat's relationship with Tylin.

 

-Compared to Faile or Elayne, Tuon's a keeper. Never questions her actions, is a decisive leader.

 

-She held out against one of the Forsaken, albeit unwittingly. (When Semirhage remarks upon her strength of will, you know the girl's got mettle).

 

-She ruthless but that's life in the Seanchan Imperial Family. In many ways, she's no different than Caesar.

 

-Slavery and damane are justified by a millenium of cultural context and influence by Ishamael.

 

-She apparently can read omens in nature (most of her musings seem to play out).

[hime]

You are not the only one, I like Toun a lot, and went through many arguments with my sisters who think it means I aprove of slavery because I like her! which is not true btw.

 

I just think she is hard to understand, mostly you have to look past the judgment of other characters to understand her more, for me the best look at her character was when  she refused healing for burns which are mighty painfull because she is not sure it's approprite,then she ordered people she trust to kill themselves ,so it's a give and take issue with her, she not just a heartless tyrant, but rather a woman who was conditioned to act in a certain way and doesn't know any other.

[XXX]

I like Tuon because she humilates the Aes Sedai who I detest.

[mokaloka99]

Matt Cauthon - Favorite character in the whole series. I could read 10 more books about him if someone was allowed to continue his story. I did notice a little difference in the character between the authors but not enough to make it stand out. Maybe i should have done a re-read between Book 11 and 12. I haven't done a re-read since book 8. I know, wtf?....

 

I just wanted to point some things out that have been brought up in this thread.

 

1) Matt the Gambler - From all evidence shown, is separate and not something attached to him being Tavren. Not to mention it is just common sense if you look at Perrin. Perrin has the wolf and TAR abilities that aren't attached to his Tavren nature. Matt has Luck. He earned those battle memories from visiting the Aelf/Eelf and wasnt born with them. Although he seems to be a past hero spit back out of the wheel. So to the people saying his luck is over, i ask you to show the proof or passage that backs that up.

 

2) Matt the Seanchan - I did not warm up to this at all when this first was introduced but after learning all we know about the Seanchan through all these books i have changed my mind. I love that he is going to end up married to Tuon and go back to the Seanchan lands. Are you kidding me, how can you not like this?! This symbolizes Matt's entire personality. He was the kid always in trouble and playing pranks, he was the kid that released the badger at the green during a dance off. Never follows rules or does what he is supposed to do and always ends up where he isnt supposed to be. Don't you see? He is the BADGER. The joke is on the Seanchan that Matt is coming back to live in their empire. It will never be the same and Matt will help usher in the change needed. Matt and his Luck will wreak havoc with their entire system. I smile now thinking of all the trouble he will get into and all the trouble he will cause everyone else.

 

3) Matt the Warrior - With AMOL Completed i think it is quiet obvious and if it wasnt already with the Wheel of Time Deathmatches :) , that Matt is clearly the most deadly warrior in all of WoT. The way he handled Gawyn and Galad in book 3 before he really came into his own, his ability to fight a gholam, etc. 

 

I think we were a little mislead in the last 2-3 books with Gawyn fighting those Deathtroops from Seanchan. I was actually thinking before AMOL that Gawyn was clearly the best swordsman and warrior in all the lands. Wow was i wrong and glad to be wrong.

 

 

4) Matt the General - Multiple people have stated, "Why didnt Matt out General Demandred?" or "Why didn't Matt Win the Last Battle?". I dont believe you guys were really reading in between the lines here. From multiple descriptions throughout AMOL, they were heavily outnumbered on both fighters and channelers. Matt basically nullified that with his strategy and tactics. I ask you this, if the situations were reversed and Matt was the one with Shadow's numbers heavily outnumbering the opposition, how easily would he have won? I think the problem with how some of you view Matt's performance is based on the writing. We are constantly fed other characters POV of how badly the battle is going and "WTF is matt doing" attitude. We also are not given any one's thoughts on the battle after it is complete. No congratulatory statements, no pat on the back, no reflections, just that it was over. In my mind if Demandred wasn't killed by Lan the battle was going to end up coming down to the wire with the Seanchan and the Canons coming back and Matt probably ending up fighting Demandred himself and winning the duel because of being better and having the foxhead.

 

 

5) Matt the Resistor - Someone else mentioned Matt not having the Foxhead medallion or giving it to Galad. Negative. There are 3 of them, the original which Matt got back from Elayne and has had the entire time. The 1st Copy which Perrin had and gave to Galad for him to give back to whoever that was but he ended up keeping it and fighting Demandred and the 2nd Copy which that Mellan character had. It was stated multiple times, although not really backed up by any proof, that the reason matt was invulnerable to being tampered with through dreams was because he carried the medallion on him.

[Julian Cook]

 

 

I have to say, I appreciated the use of Hinderstrap as a tactic. It had a point! Bloody brilliant.

 

I thought this was the most hilarious part of the book! The sheer shock and horror for the DF's as they see the SAME crazy villagers running toward them again...

I agree, I loved that also the plus that anyone killed there would keep adding to their numbers.

 I am really glad there was a point to it. I hated Hinderstrap originally. Of course mostly because Mat was so far off his normal character, but either way I couldnt get past it fast enough. 

 

Hinderstrap can only be seen a padding, that there was a few lines in MOL does not forgive the wasted time reading about Hinderstrap

[flinn]

I have been re-reading the Mat chapters.

I have to say all the 

 

 "Here now" "Hey now" "and all" is really jarring. A simple editing removing phrases of that types will make Mat more the Mat he was in the last two RJ books.

[hime]

5) Matt the Resistor - Someone else mentioned Matt not having the Foxhead medallion or giving it to Galad. Negative. There are 3 of them, the original which Matt got back from Elayne and has had the entire time. The 1st Copy which Perrin had and gave to Galad for him to give back to whoever that was but he ended up keeping it and fighting Demandred and the 2nd Copy which that Mellan character had. It was stated multiple times, although not really backed up by any proof, that the reason matt was invulnerable to being tampered with through dreams was because he carried the medallion on him.

 

Actually there is one origional medallion and three fakes, meller took one, Mat had the origional and two fakes last we heard in TOM, he apearantly gave one back to Elayne which she in turn gave to Birgitte, the third is the one he gave to Galad. but he kept the origonal one at all times, except when Tuon stole it that is.

 

On a different note, was I the only one who absolutly loved how Mat figured out that Bryne is Dark friend?( or so he hought) , It was one of my favorite Mat moments in the book especially how he offhandedly said it with no cursing or exclimations, it was so cool.

[Agitel]

I have been re-reading the Mat chapters.

I have to say all the 

 

 "Here now" "Hey now" "and all" is really jarring. A simple editing removing phrases of that types will make Mat more the Mat he was in the last two RJ books.

 

That is something that commonly annoyed me. I'm sure it was present in AMOL, though it was more toned down than in TOM. I had just finished a reread of TOM before starting AMOL, and it was chock full of sentences starting with "Well," and "Anyway," and things of the sort. A lot of dialogue, but even outside of dialogue. While I'm not against ever using those terms, the frequency was distracting and did not bring any benefits. The sentences could have been crisper and to the point. That's not to say all writing or sentences should be parsed down to the bare minimum, mind, but there should be justification. A particular character's speech patterns or slang or dialect is a good one. 

 

And I'd think he'd have known not to use "here now," and the like with any frequency. In Brandon's Mistborn trilogy, one character uses it a lot, and he gets chewed out for it and how it makes him sound indecisive.

[Agitel]

 

 

 

I have to say, I appreciated the use of Hinderstrap as a tactic. It had a point! Bloody brilliant.

 

I thought this was the most hilarious part of the book! The sheer shock and horror for the DF's as they see the SAME crazy villagers running toward them again...

I agree, I loved that also the plus that anyone killed there would keep adding to their numbers.

 I am really glad there was a point to it. I hated Hinderstrap originally. Of course mostly because Mat was so far off his normal character, but either way I couldnt get past it fast enough. 

 

Hinderstrap can only be seen a padding, that there was a few lines in MOL does not forgive the wasted time reading about Hinderstrap

 

As executed, I agree. The original reasoning for such a scene seems sound enough. It should have been better integrated. Why not have Verin and her letter connected there somehow, instead of having that be separate? Or at least trim down the scene a little. I do think it does a nice job of showing how wacky things are getting with a fraying Pattern, though.

[tokkk]

With respect to Hinderstrap.

 

Did Mat send those 100 redarms on a suicide mission to recruit the hinderstrap undead?  The book mentions that Delarm volunteered but what of the other 100 (or 99)?

[Agitel]

With respect to Hinderstrap.

 

Did Mat send those 100 redarms on a suicide mission to recruit the hinderstrap undead?  The book mentions that Delarm volunteered but what of the other 100 (or 99)?

 

I did not check this, but the impression I got from reading was that those Redarms were the ones who died Mat's first night in Hinderstrap. Anyone who dies there gets caught up in that cyclic loop.

[tokkk]

 

With respect to Hinderstrap.

 

Did Mat send those 100 redarms on a suicide mission to recruit the hinderstrap undead?  The book mentions that Delarm volunteered but what of the other 100 (or 99)?

 

I did not check this, but the impression I got from reading was that those Redarms were the ones who died Mat's first night in Hinderstrap. Anyone who dies there gets caught up in that cyclic loop.

 

That was my first thought but I remember (I did not check either) that he only went with a few redarms (along with Joline and Teslyn and their warders).   Im certain he didnt go in with 100 redarms.