Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[jack of shadows]

@shortkut, @master ablar,

i completely agree.elayne and min were part of rand's dream.

lanfear had nothing to do with it,she was an intruder,and so was aviendha.

in hindsight,knowing how out of control lanfear was in the cairhienin docks

when she did find out that rand had slept with aviendha(the term out of control

is probably an understatement of the century-lanfear skinned hadnan kadere alive,

blew his wagon,and went to confront rand all frothing at the mouth) i am surprised

that she opted to join rand's x-rated movie instead of killing him outright!!!

[Terez]

Aviendha wasn't spying on Rand in his dreams; that was the Dreamwalkers' job. They had her watch him in the waking world while they watched him in his dreams. They were somehow able to bring her into Tel'aran'rhiod (though I've always thought that was a bit of a continuity error) but she was not able to go to the place where the dreams are, which we at Theoryland call the Gap of Infinity (GOI). The Wise Ones didn't know how to teach that to anyone without the Talent, and besides, she was certainly awake while he was having that dream. Aviendha watching from the bank was probably symbolic of the fact that Rand hadn't yet admitted to himself that he was attracted to her.

[jedman67]

I dont have a quote in front of me, but i"ll try to do a reread later on the subway.

What I remember is that Rand was very confused about Min and Elayne skinny dipping in his dream, it felt wrong even in his dreams.

Indication #1 that he's being manipulated.

Avihenda is not known to be a dreamwalker. Perhaps she has a minuscule Dreaming talent, but I doubt it. I don't recall any mention of her being in TAR; but the WO do have the ability to drag a person from a dream to their dream, or to TAR if they want. It's possible that despite it being "evil" they (with Avi's permission) brought her in.

The WO's were indeed watching his dreams, but even the WO's knew that its dangerous to enter someone elses dream - "you can look, but don't touch."

Avi being in his dream is probably legit, he can't tell what she thinks other than she "hates" him, his confusion about her makes sense.

 

Lanfear manipulating his dreams makes sense - she conjures Min and Elayne from his subconcious to confuse him, or takes an existing aspect of his dream (min and elayne simply being there) and twists them to suit her own purpose. She's trying to goad a reaction out of him.

[Suttree]

Here is the quote:

 

TSR Ch. 50

   Eyes closed, Rand stroked through the water. Nicely cool. And so wet. It seemed that he had never before realized how good wet felt. Lifting his head, he looked around at the willows lining one end of the pond, the big oak at the other, stretching thick, shading limbs over the water. The Waterwood. It was good to be home. He had the feeling he had been away; where was not exactly clear, but not important, either. Up to Watch Hill. Yes. He had never been farther than that. Cool and wet. And alone.
   Suddenly two bodies hurtled through the air, knees clutched to chest, landing with great splashes that blinded him. Shaking the water out of his eyes, he found Elayne and Min smiling at him from either side, just their heads showing above the pale green surface. Two strokes would take him to either woman. Away from the other. He could not love both of them. Love? Why had that popped into his head?
   "You do not know who you love."
   He spun about in a swirl of water. Aviendha stood on the bank, in cadin'sor rather than skirt and blouse. Not glaring, though, just looking. "Come into the water," he said. "I'll teach you how to swim."
 

 

No mention of the dream "beginning to feel odd" until Lanfear shows up.

[jedman67]

Here is the quote:

 

TSR Ch. 50

   Eyes closed, Rand stroked through the water. Nicely cool. And so wet. It seemed that he had never before realized how good wet felt. Lifting his head, he looked around at the willows lining one end of the pond, the big oak at the other, stretching thick, shading limbs over the water. The Waterwood. It was good to be home. He had the feeling he had been away; where was not exactly clear, but not important, either. Up to Watch Hill. Yes. He had never been farther than that. Cool and wet. And alone.

   Suddenly two bodies hurtled through the air, knees clutched to chest, landing with great splashes that blinded him. Shaking the water out of his eyes, he found Elayne and Min smiling at him from either side, just their heads showing above the pale green surface. Two strokes would take him to either woman. Away from the other. He could not love both of them. Love? Why had that popped into his head?

   "You do not know who you love."

   He spun about in a swirl of water. Aviendha stood on the bank, in cadin'sor rather than skirt and blouse. Not glaring, though, just looking. "Come into the water," he said. "I'll teach you how to swim."

 

 

No mention of the dream "beginning to feel odd" until Lanfear shows up.

just read through that chapter. i could have sworn that min and elayne were naked in the dream; but i stand corrected.

[Terez]

He had a dream earlier in the book (ch2) with Min and Elayne where Egwene shows up; in that one Min and Elayne got naked.

[jedman67]

He had a dream earlier in the book (ch2) with Min and Elayne where Egwene shows up; in that one Min and Elayne got naked.

i suspect that was a bit of foreshadowing - maybe it was a Dream? (the Amyrlin with the rope is very likely Elaida, IMO)

[jack of shadows]

@terez,

you are correct.

aviendha did appear on the bank of the pool because rand subconsciously wished her to be there.

later,when rand did wake up,he found aviendha sitting in his room,so i wrongly assumed that the

dreamwalkers used proximity as a way/method to push aviendha inside rand's dream.not so.

it was all rand's doing.

poor lanfear,she did enter rand's dream to be alone with him,only to find a pool full of women,

and when she did remove them from the scene,asmodean arrived to spoil her fun.

small wonder she went all berserk in cairhien.

[jack of shadows]

last week in her theory blog the "wot if.....a cour'souvra survives" mashiara sedai wrote

a sequence of events that i find intriguing and want to share them with you.

from the prologue of a memory of light "moghedien had not failed to notice that moridin

still wore cyndane's mind trap."

"so,if it was still around moridin neck,that means moridin likely had it with him in shayol ghul.

which means it was there when rand and moridin switched bodies.which means it was around

rand's neck when he woke up and rode off.which means rand has access to lanfear's soul!"

what do you think about mashiara's sequence of events??

according to her,rand rode off with his ex-lover's soul around his neck-the creator is probably

laughing his head off right now!!!

[shortkut]

Lanfear died while in TAR in the flesh. If rand has her cour'sourva then it is useless now

[jack of shadows]

@shortkut,

yes,lanfear did die in tel'aran'rhiod,but her soul was trapped elsewhere,so this is clearly

a unique situation.

the meeting between rand and lanfear in his dreamshard,did provide him a kind of a closure,

rand is not going to resurrect lanfear a few days after the last battle(if the cour'souvra is indeed

with him),he is probably not going to do anything with it.

all lanfear ever wanted was to be with rand,forget about her motives,e.g. power,glory,ruling the

world,vanity or bruised ego,they are all immaterial,and ironically,in the end,she got her wish

and ended as a pendant around rand's neck.

it's a joke of a cosmic proportions.

[Mats Spare Hat]

That's a whacky train of thought, for lack of better words...

You can't so blithely dismiss Lanfear's motivations, because they're literally the driving force for her wanting to be with Rand/LTT - Her lust for power, and her use of Rand/LTT to obtain the power and prestige granted via said relationship.

The relationship itself isn't what drove her wanting of Rand/LTT at all. If he'd been a bumpkin, with only the power to wipe his own rear end, she wouldn't have given a crap - regardless of if he happened to be as attractive as say Galad, for instance. Forgetting about Lanfear's motivations is precisely what would have led Rand to his death.

Shorkut's correct, though. That Wot If... theory, in particular, is based on a concept that isn't grounded on clear evidence, or plain fact - That a mind-trap traps a soul beyond death.

There's nothing in the books to suggest a mind-trap is capable of doing so, at all.

[Rhienne]

Shorkut's correct, though. That Wot If... theory, in particular, is based on a concept that isn't grounded on clear evidence, or plain fact - That a mind-trap traps a soul beyond death.

 

There's nothing in the books to suggest a mind-trap is capable of doing so, at all.

Is there anything in the books that says that it isn't capable of doing so?  I can't recall it being mentioned either way.

[Mats Spare Hat]

In which case, I am a Nigerian prince, in need of your assistance...

[jack of shadows]

@mat's spare hat,

rhienne is right you know,we don't have sufficient evidence to support either claim.

regarding the cour'souvra,lanfear's soul could be dead or alive-your guess is as good

as mine.

my biggest problem lies elsewhere,in my opinion,the cour'souvra is not around rand's neck at all.

when rand dragged moridin out of the pit of doom he was bleeding heavily,so moridin's clothes

got drenched from blood.

hours later,rand woke up,went to the mirror and got dressed.

he did not change his clothes,he got dressed,so my guess is while he was sleeping, someone removed

his clothes,(probably)cleaned him and healed his right arm(moridin did stab his own hand inside the pit).

which means that rand was naked,or at least partly naked in front of the mirror and he didn't notice a

strange pendant around his neck.

the cour'souvra is probably still in the tent along with a discarded pile of dirty clothes.

[jack of shadows]

@suttree,

"rand as the col."

what is exactly a col.?

[MasterAblar]

Champion of the Light

[jack of shadows]

@master ablar,

thank you.

i meant to ask this a while ago, the col. did seem to elude me like a grey man.lol.

[jedman67]

I think Moridin gave Bela Lanfears courseva. 

[Damodred Tomas]

 

 

 

 

 

So basically you might make little choices like what to wear each day, but the Pattern won't allow you to choose when important decisions come up. It will force you in the right direction.

 

Are you claiming that Lanfear was "forced" to drill into the Bore and that this was the "right direction"?

Yes, according to that Herid Fel and RJ quotes provided by Suttree that is exactly what happened:

 

I couldn't find anything in either quote that suggested that the Pattern forced Lanfear to drill into the DO's bore.

 

That decision was her choice...which flies directly into the quoted claim that the Pattern doesn't allow people to make "important decisions".

I doubt Lanfear or anyone else was forced to drill into the DO's bore. I think the drilling of that bore is the end of the age of legends, which could happen at any time. I just think at the end of the age of legends when they get too advanced it is inevitable that someone will look for a new source of power and will drill the bore. To compare it to our world, it was kind of inevitable that the atom bomb would be discovered once scientific knowledge advanced enough. If WWII would not have happened the bomb would have been discovered a few years later at most, it is just inevitable.

I don't think the pattern made her do it, I think it was inevitible it was going to happen but I wouldn't say the pattern picked her. Unless you are ta'vern you still have free will. The one main think about the DOs prision being drilled into is enough time must pass that people forget about the DO even exsiting. Sooner or later it will happen again but I don't think the pattern will say "ok Bob Smith" is going to do it. Lanfear was free to say "this seems to dangerous, I don't want to do it". Lanfear just wanted the glory that would come from the attention of her being the one along with that other guy to tap into this new power source.

[jack of shadows]

@damodred tomas,

it's entirely possible that the pattern did not "force" lanfear to do anything,

drilling the bore was of her own free volition,i.e. ambition,lack of recognition,

bruised ego etc,but ask yourself a different question,how much leeway did

the pattern allow rand?how many times did the pattern push,coerce or manipulate

rand into doing its own bidding? e.g. the only reason i can think of why the pattern

did broadcast the battle of falme live in the sky was to destroy rand's anonymity.

so does free will and the freedom to choose exist?maybe to some(small)extent,

less so for someone like the dragon reborn who had been specifically chosen by

the pattern to lead the forces of light.

in my opinion,the mechanization for creating the third age dragon was in place a

thousand years before rand was born,the pattern did invest too much time and effort

just to give rand  free hand.

[jack of shadows]

@barid bel medar,

"thus for those plot-lines that have not been credited to rj (such as the tog,the final sealing of the do

and the fate of rand)".

let me get this straight,robert jordan did not write notes regarding rand's fate?it was all brandon sanderson's doing?

from 1992 on-ward(my personal starting point),the most important questions(for me)were-will rand survive

shayol ghul?will he live a normal life?

and now you are telling me that robert jordan did leave rand's fate unresolved?

[Barid Bel Medar]

A grammatical mixup. The brackets are not supposed to read as a continuation of the sentence, but as an example of things credited to RJ. 

 

Those are meant as examples of plot-points that HAVE been credited to RJ. 

 

I've changed it to  "credited to RJ (unlike the ToG, the final Sealing of the DO and the fate of Rand, which have been confirmed as RJ)"

[jack of shadows]

@barid bel medar,

thank you for clarifying that point,for a moment,i had in mind to take callandor

and balefire a few cities just to convey my extreme dissatisfaction,lololol.

[jack of shadows]

ta'veren do not just bend probabilities,they infuence people in all sorts of ways.

when rand entered the white tower,he was surrounded by (at least) dozens of aes

sedai,so his ta'veren nature went into overdrive and gave him an aura of invincibility,

no one dared to touch him,and later,during rand's meeting with egwene,no one could

even speak.

it was a brutally effective display of ta'veren ability that allowed rand to breeze through

the white tower  unharmed.