Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[The_Underage_Asha'man]

In the scene with Rand, Tuon and Mat in the garden in Ebou Dar.  Mat asks Rand if he is singing.  Do you think this is the song that the Tinkers are looking for?

No. In the AoL, the Aiel often sang with the Voice, similar to the Ogier, but neither of which sang the "song".

[Agitel]

In the scene with Rand, Tuon and Mat in the garden in Ebou Dar.  Mat asks Rand if he is singing.  Do you think this is the song that the Tinkers are looking for?

 

Rand is singing a song of growing with a talent called the Voice. It is likely in these songs of growing that the Tinker's song has its roots. So, in a way, yes.

 

HOWEVER, it's important to note that the Song the Tinkers refer to is more myth than reality. Over the last three thousand years, their conception of this lost Talent has morphed into more than just a song of growing, but an entire philosophy and ideal. It's a religion. The Tinker's would not accept the song of growing as 'The Song.' I'm sure they'd think it was pretty damn cool, but it doesn't satisfy their expectations or religious needs.

 

So, in short, the talent of the Voice is likely the origin of the Tinker's Song, but it would not be accepted by them as the Song.

 

The Voice is a talent.

 

The Song is a religion.

[groovyjohal]

Hi. Firstly, i would just say that although the book no doubt had some issues, I really enjoyed it and it left me with a feeling of closure and a great measure of satisfaction (Thank you RJ and all the rest who contributed to the series for the best novels i have read in my life) and Rand's arc in the book was perhaps the best IMHO.

 

Secondly, I have been going through this thread but i could not find this (i may have missed it and apologize if its a repost)

 

It seems to me that Rand Al Thor is now the real "Bao the Wyld"

 

my reasons:

1) He can seemingly "channel" without any chaneller sensing him channel - Demandred fooled the sharans using the TP but Rand can actually do it without TP or OP

2) He can be said to be the "Dragonslayer" - i remember the Sharan woman calling Demandred by this.

3) Rand decides that he may go all the way to the coast and take a ship to the East.

4) The sharans are the only ones seemingly remaining without a proper hope or a guiding light if you will.

 

So it seems that Rand will get his R&R for some time and travel freely as he always wanted but his part is not yet done :)

Moreover, I have somehow, always assocciated the word Wyld with freedom and wind in my mind...Although it may be a fictional entity

[XXX]

 

 

 

i give up.

 

i have nothing further to add your honour except to say that when a man who is drawing so much of the power barely fends of a shield and runs away from the scene of the battlefield equals breaking the law of the thirteen then we need to call it quits

Elan, we have seen numerous examples of channelers shielding other channelers, even channelers more powerful than themselves, before they access the Power. Falion and Ispan shielding Nynaeve in aCoS-38 for example. They did so before Nynaeve embraced the source. I highly doubt they would have been capable of doing so if she was actually holding the Power already.

There are just far too many examples of this fact throughout the books.

 

I don't think the 13 rule comes into play until the shield is actually put in place. It explains both arguments no?

 

That does explain it but that is not the way Asmo and LTT explained it in the books. And it was proven when Rand was captured,he drawing in as much as he could but the shield just came in place.

 

Of course Rand pushing the shield back in AMOL could be a Sanderson invention,not the first one he has thought off that would contradict what we read for 11 books.

There have been many instances in previous books where it has been said that it is impossible to break through a shield, or even hold one off, if it is supported by thirteen channelers. I think it is safe to think that it could be a possiblity that Sanderson created from himself Rand's "fending off" of the shield.

 

Yes, that is the conclusion I have come too. Sanderson made a mistake with Rand fighting off a full circle shield.

[Hondo]

No man can stand against 13.

 

13 of the weakest AS in the Tower would wreck any man, according to Asmodean. "The thirteen weakest women in the Tower could overpower you OR ANY MAN, and barely breath hard". 

 

Rand broke the male a'dam by using the TP....something that he could never had done with saidin alone.  

Before the meeting with the borderlanders in Far Madden, Rand's discussion with Cadsuane left me with the impression that he could use the TP inspite of the ter'angreal that blocked access to the saidin/saidar.

 

Unless someone has something definitive, I would expect that the rules of shielding would not hold if the one being shielded also had access to the TP.

[Suttree]

 

 

 

No man can stand against 13.

 

13 of the weakest AS in the Tower would wreck any man, according to Asmodean. "The thirteen weakest women in the Tower could overpower you OR ANY MAN, and barely breath hard".

Rand broke the male a'dam by using the TP....something that he could never had done with saidin alone. Before the meeting with the borderlanders in Far Madden, Rand's discussion with Cadsuane left me with the impression that he could use the TP inspite of the ter'angreal that blocked access to the saidin/saidar.

Unless someone has something definitive, I would expect that the rules of shielding would not hold if the one being shielded also had access to the TP.

Interview: Jul 19th, 2005

TOR Questions of the Week Part III (Verbatim)

Week 8 Question

When a person that can channel is shielded, where is the shield placed? Is it placed around the whole body of the person or around the head of the channeler where they sense saidin/saidar? If you are shielded from the One Power, are you also shielded from the True Power? What happens if someone in a circle is shielded? Can a Warder feel that his Aes Sedai is shielded?

Robert Jordan

A shield exists both as a barrier around the entire person and as a single point along with everything in between. (In a way, this is like the Bore, which does not actually exist as Shayol Ghul. The Bore exists everywhere, but Shayol Ghul is the place where it can best be detected. Which is not to say that there is any connection between the Bore and a shield. Both simply exist in different states simultaneously.) Someone who is shielded and trying to get past the shield can "feel" their way along its inner "surface" hunting for weaknesses, such as the points that indicate where the shield is being maintained or has been tied off. Shielding against the One Power will indeed stop someone from reaching for the True Power. It isn't possible to shield one person out of a circle since, in effect, the circle has become a single person for the purpose of channeling. You would have to shield the entire circle, which would require either a circle of your own or a pretty hefty sa'angreal. A Warder cannot feel that his Aes Sedai has been shielded, though he would be aware of any agitation on her part. But this would tell him no more than that she was agitated.

[Hondo]

What that means is, yes the Pattern either 'allowed' the Bore to be drilled, or actively made it happen. Now why that occurred is the true mystery. The answer lies in the resolution of the "a world without choice=bad" vs

 

 

I don't think that it's much of a mystery and I think that you've answered it.    In most circumstances, the Wheel allows free-will.   Drilling the Bore was a really bad idea, but it was a choice made by Lanfear, et al.

 

The existence of the ta'veren is obviously an (maybe only) exception to free-will.   From TL's composite glossary  "...the effect seems to extend to influencing history itself, though often by means of the localized effects.   This, it is believed, is the real reason that ta'veren are born, in order to shift history and restore a balance to the turning of the Wheel."

 

To say that the Pattern caused the Bore to be drilled because the Age of Legends had somehow produced an "imbalance to the turning of the Wheel" is a step too far.   Since we know that the Oath Rods were produced to deal with criminals, you can not claim that the AoL had eliminated evil or somehow threatened the Pattern or the WOT.  

 

Eve was deceived into eating the wrong fruit.   A lone gunman killed JFK.   A couple of misguided researchers were deceived and drilled into the DO's prision.   $#@! happens.

[Hondo]

 

 

 

No man can stand against 13.

 

13 of the weakest AS in the Tower would wreck any man, according to Asmodean. "The thirteen weakest women in the Tower could overpower you OR ANY MAN, and barely breath hard".

Rand broke the male a'dam by using the TP....something that he could never had done with saidin alone. Before the meeting with the borderlanders in Far Madden, Rand's discussion with Cadsuane left me with the impression that he could use the TP inspite of the ter'angreal that blocked access to the saidin/saidar.

Unless someone has something definitive, I would expect that the rules of shielding would not hold if the one being shielded also had access to the TP.

 

. Shielding against the One Power will indeed stop someone from reaching for the True Power.

 

 

In my short time here, I've come to count on you for producing quotes from two decades of interviews.   This quote was obviously a surprise to me, but it still doesn't say whether or not 13 of the weakest AS could shield someone with access to the TP....just that it can be done.

 

It seems like Brandon and Team Jordan either made a monumental continuity error or it is actually harder to shield someone with access to both the Source and TP.  

[Guest stinschen]

I think the book was great, loved the quick pace and I think I felt more for the characters than I've done previously. The last chapter was a bit.... silly, though...

I have a couple of questions that I hope someone would like to explain to me (I have a little newborn baby keeping me awake during the night, so my brain is a bit slow a the moment).

 

On p158 king Roedran of Murandy enters the pavillion where the peace keeping treaty is signed and some ashamen surrounds him and Rand asks him: You are not him are you? The king asks: who?

Rand ignores him but says: where are you?

 

What was that about?

 

And my other question: where has Alivia been during the last battle? can't remember...

 

And oh, is Rand still bonded to his three girlfriends after changing body?

[Suttree]

On p158 king Roedran of Murandy enters the pavillion where the peace keeping treaty is signed and some ashamen surrounds him and Rand asks him: You are not him are you? The king asks: who?

Rand ignores him but says: where are you?

 

What was that about?

 

It was Brandon breaking the 4th wall in relation to all the "where is Demandred" theories that had been much debated around the fandom.

[wRAR]

And my other question: where has Alivia been during the last battle? can't remember...

 

And oh, is Rand still bonded to his three girlfriends after changing body?

Thakandar.

Yes.

[Asha'man Steve]

 

 

Same Angreal same full circle by Elaida AS and Rand could not prevent the shield in Carhien while he could hold off an arguably stronger shield in AMOL as it was led by Taim.

 

 

That's because rand grew more powerful since book 6.

 

Rand is fully knowldgeable about the power like his alter ego

 

He was expecting it

 

And he still barely fended it off.

 

A few moments later had he not travelled he would have been shielded

 

enteri,

 

look we can sit here all day and say the circle taim was leading could have been 13 or a 72 circle. no one knows for a fact.

 

What we do know is Lews therin telamon said you cant break a shield of 13.

 

We have the word of asmodean

 

You need to show me one instance in the book where rand broke through a circle of 13. You need to show me an instance where rand could not have been sheilded by a circle of 13

 

I am waiting.

 

 

You wait is over if you read AMOL: Rand fought off a circle of at least 13. 

Theres a big difference between fighting off a shield and breaking one once its in place

[Asha'man Steve]

In the scene with Rand, Tuon and Mat in the garden in Ebou Dar.  Mat asks Rand if he is singing.  Do you think this is the song that the Tinkers are looking for?

Sanderson stated in an interview that it is not the song they're looking for 

[jack of shadows]

can anyone help me to understand what has happened to lord and lady torkumen

in maradon?

lady torkumen committed suicide and lord torkumen gouged his eyes out,was it

rand's doing?

[thoro]

can anyone help me to understand what has happened to lord and lady torkumen

in maradon?

lady torkumen committed suicide and lord torkumen gouged his eyes out,was it

rand's doing?

 

Although this doesn´t have anything to do with AMoL: Them being Darkfriends they basically went mad or "hopless" when encountering the Dragon Reborn in his then-present state, which was already a very pure form of "light" or "goodness". So yes, it was Rand, although it was more his "being" than his "doing".

[Mitsobar]

I think he should of died.

 

The body transfer was a copout.

 

 

 

I also agree Rand's plan to outright destroy the DO and end cycle was the right course, and the reasoning given in the book against this was very flawed.

[jack of shadows]

@mitsobar.

the possibility of a body swap between rand and moridin was hinted many times

throughout the wheel of time series via foretelling,dreams and prophecies,so no,

i don't believe it was a cop out.

let me quote one of egwene's dreams from as far back as a crown of swords:

the dying man dream,

"a man lay dying in a narrow bed,and it was important he not die,yet outside a

funeral pyre was being built,and voices raised songs of joy and sadness"....

[Mitsobar]

@mitsobar.

the possibility of a body swap between rand and moridin was hinted many times

throughout the wheel of time series via foretelling,dreams and prophecies,so no,

i don't believe it was a cop out.

let me quote one of egwene's dreams as far back as a crown of swords:

the dying man dream,

"a man lay dying in a narrow bed,and it was important he not die,yet outside a

funeral pyre was being built,and voices raised songs of joy and sadness"....

 

Fair enough on that then.   I did not do a full re-read before picking up aMoL so there are countless small things I do not remember from before that may relate to now.

 

Personally I would of preferred if he had not survived.

[nikios2099]

I also agree Rand's plan to outright destroy the DO and end cycle was the right course, and the reasoning given in the book against this was very flawed.

 

in another serie yes but not in one called "the wheel of time" where we have been told so many times that there is no beginings and that the previous ages will come again in the future ...

[jack of shadows]

 

@mitsobar.

the possibility of a body swap between rand and moridin was hinted many times

throughout the wheel of time series via foretelling,dreams and prophecies,so no,

i don't believe it was a cop out.

let me quote one of egwene's dreams as far back as a crown of swords:

the dying man dream,

"a man lay dying in a narrow bed,and it was important he not die,yet outside a

funeral pyre was being built,and voices raised songs of joy and sadness"....

 

Fair enough on that then.   I did not do a full re-read before picking up aMoL so there are countless small things I do not remember from before that may relate to now.

 

Personally I would of preferred if he had not survived.

i am sure rand may disagree with you on this one hahahaha.

[1qq]

by the way,i laughed my head off when cadsuane asked rand if he is going to give her a gift,

and he basically told her to f**k off!!!! hahahaha.

You read that wrong, he said he would give gifts to those he cares about. It's possible he gave a gift to cads.

[TristanWebb]

You read it wrong, she asked if she was getting one and he said he was only giving them to people he cares about. It is a sick burn.

[Suttree]

You read it wrong, she asked if she was getting one and he said he was only giving them to people he cares about. It is a sick burn.

It was but in reality we know he does care about her and credits her with his epiphany during the VoG sequence. As mentioned earlier she has saved his life, rescued him from being sent back to Elaida and has had his back as hard as anyone in the series. He cares about Cads, much as you would that gruff aunt that expected you to be an adult at age 6 and didn't suffer fools.

[1qq]

You read it wrong, she asked if she was getting one and he said he was only giving them to people he cares about. It is a sick burn.

No, you didn't capture the tone right. The way you say it is 'yeah, I ONLY give it to people I care about' when he said 'I'll give gifts to those I care about' in a way that seems like he could give one to cads.

 

 

[jack of shadows]

poor grumpy granny,so unappreciated tsk tsk tsk.

don't just lose hope yet suttree,like c.s. lewis said:

"there are far far better things ahead than any we leave behind".

as the new amyrlin,grumpy granny will make life miserable to all

around her,and in return,the sitters will do the same to her(probably ten times worse).

and the beauty of it all??rand al thor is nowhere in sight,no more testing his mettle,

no more duty this or duty that,no more destiny this or that ad nauseam.

the new rand farstrider doesn't give a rat's arse about aes sedai,amyrlins,white tower or black one.

let's call it poetic justice.