Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Axon]

I used to think that as well (granted we are told that), but the ending doesn't add up if that's the case.    RJ may have just chucked the concept for the happy ending or w/e

[XXX]

I used to think that as well (granted we are told that), but the ending doesn't add up if that's the case.    RJ may have just chucked the concept for the happy ending or w/e

 

Not necessarily, the concept of the hero for a particular age comes from Eastern religions.And once that age is finished, the hero/savior does not necessarily die,many time he carries on living for years into the next age but he is no more what is was in the preceding age where he was born for a particular purpose.It does not mean that he is an ordinary person who can be pushed around in the new age.it is just that he is no more "the hero".I am sure anyone trying to push Rand/Mordin around will have a nice surprise for them.

 

IIRC Rand became a Tavern just before Moriane landed in 2 rivers so it makes sense that he is no more tavern now that the need for the tavern is finished.

[Axon]

 

I used to think that as well (granted we are told that), but the ending doesn't add up if that's the case.    RJ may have just chucked the concept for the happy ending or w/e

 

 

 

IIRC Rand became a Tavern just before Moriane landed in 2 rivers so it makes sense that he is no more tavern now that the need for the tavern is finished.

When he became ta'veren is unclear, but you may be right.  However, what you said here is exactly what I'm saying - the pattern is done with his heroics - save that LTT is gone now.  It's certainly left ambiguous  and it's certainly in contradiction to what we were told earlier about Rand and LTT being the same "soul" but not the same "life" (a cool concept, but one which doesn't really hold up under any kind of scrutiny.  At least I've always felt that way). 

 

Unfortunately, we will never know for sure.  

[Guest Barkinator]

I have been lurking here for a full turning of the wheel and have decided to post some thoughts regarding the infamous pipe lighting scene. Most of the posts on the subject conclude that Rand has a new source of power due to his experience confronting the shadow outside of time (from the perspective of the pattern) and from manipulating the fabric of the pattern. I believe that the power he displayed may only be temporary due to the changes in the multi-verse.

 

When Perrin was fighting Slayer there were scenes showing that all of the alternate realities were merging with TR as the climactic moment with the DO drew near. The "impossibilities" with the frozen lightning etc. And the time dilation suggest that the bore was acting like a singularity or "black hole". When Rand re-sealed the DOs prison, all of the alternate mirror worlds merged with TR. I fforgot the quote, but I believe it went something like " if the DO is loose in one world, he is loose in all worlds, and if he is imprisoned in one world he would be imprisoned in all worlds"

 

When Rand re-forged the bore, there was at that instant only ONE reality. From that moment going forward, new mirror worlds are created as all of the possibilities of free choice are realized. The residual effect was that Rand could create reality itself with his thoughts due to the closeness of the true reality, TR. Itay be possible that Rand has been changed through his experiences and will always have this ability, or it may fade as TR moves further away as more mirror worlds are created.

[XXX]

 

 

I used to think that as well (granted we are told that), but the ending doesn't add up if that's the case.    RJ may have just chucked the concept for the happy ending or w/e

 

 

 

IIRC Rand became a Tavern just before Moriane landed in 2 rivers so it makes sense that he is no more tavern now that the need for the tavern is finished.

When he became ta'veren is unclear, but you may be right.  However, what you said here is exactly what I'm saying - the pattern is done with his heroics - save that LTT is gone now.  It's certainly left ambiguous  and it's certainly in contradiction to what we were told earlier about Rand and LTT being the same "soul" but not the same "life" (a cool concept, but one which doesn't really hold up under any kind of scrutiny.  At least I've always felt that way). 

 

Unfortunately, we will never know for sure.  

 

I believe LTT is still there.Rand is still Rand except for that fact that he is not tavern anymore.But the tavern ability was not unique to him and I believe it showed up in the 3 boys to correct the pattern before the end of the age.

[Hondo]

IIRC Rand became a Tavern just before Moriane landed in 2 rivers so it makes sense that he is no more tavern now that the need for the tavern is finished.

 

 

I would argue that he was ta'vern from birth.   He was found by Tam in the few minutes after his birth but before he would have died from exposure.   Tam took him to the Two Rivers where he could grow up away from all Aes Sedai, including the Black Ajah.   Sounds to me like the pattern was arranging what Rand needed....and that doesn't even include the story of how Rand came to be born on Dragonmount.

 

Whether or not Rand, Mat, or Perrin are still ta'vern can not be answered from semi-logic based on assumptions.   For instance, how do you know that the pattern's need for ta'vern is finished?      Remember the line "the future teeters on the edge of a blade"?   It sounds to me like the pattern might still need them.  

 

The concept of ta'vern has been discussed throughout the series.   I don't remember a single instance of someone that is ta'vern losing that ability.   So I don't really see a reason to assume that it has happened here.

[Suttree]

 

IIRC Rand became a Tavern just before Moriane landed in 2 rivers so it makes sense that he is no more tavern now that the need for the tavern is finished.

 

 

I would argue that he was ta'vern from birth.

You can argue it but we know per RJ that isn't true.

 

 

Interview: Jul, 2002

COT: 'Glimmers' Ebook Q&A (Verbatim)

Question

Does ta’veren-ness ebb and flow as needed? If Rand, Mat, and Perrin were all ta’veren growing up, it seems that the Two Rivers would have had a lot of odd events occurring, but no mention is made of it.

Robert Jordan

You might say that ta’veren-ness ebbs and flows. For one thing, remember that even for someone like Rand, the effects are really occasional, not continuous. Even when he is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally. For another thing, no one is born ta’veren. Rand, Mat, and Perrin only became ta’veren just before Moiraine appeared. You become ta’veren according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the Heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes ta’veren because the Wheel has “decided” to use them as an influence on the Pattern. And, no, the Wheel isn’t sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way.

[Jordorac]

I have been lurking here for a full turning of the wheel and have decided to post some thoughts regarding the infamous pipe lighting scene. Most of the posts on the subject conclude that Rand has a new source of power due to his experience confronting the shadow outside of time (from the perspective of the pattern) and from manipulating the fabric of the pattern. I believe that the power he displayed may only be temporary due to the changes in the multi-verse.

 

When Perrin was fighting Slayer there were scenes showing that all of the alternate realities were merging with TR as the climactic moment with the DO drew near. The "impossibilities" with the frozen lightning etc. And the time dilation suggest that the bore was acting like a singularity or "black hole". When Rand re-sealed the DOs prison, all of the alternate mirror worlds merged with TR. I fforgot the quote, but I believe it went something like " if the DO is loose in one world, he is loose in all worlds, and if he is imprisoned in one world he would be imprisoned in all worlds"

 

When Rand re-forged the bore, there was at that instant only ONE reality. From that moment going forward, new mirror worlds are created as all of the possibilities of free choice are realized. The residual effect was that Rand could create reality itself with his thoughts due to the closeness of the true reality, TR. Itay be possible that Rand has been changed through his experiences and will always have this ability, or it may fade as TR moves further away as more mirror worlds are created.

 

I like how you link the "singularity issue" of Shayol Ghul with the start of a new age. Like a Big Bang. It resets the whole scene. This is actually evident in the fact that TAR did dissolve before Rand closed the bore. TAR is supposed to be the mirror image of all possible worlds. With it dissolving into nothingness we know that all reality in all worlds came to a screeching halt and was reshaped.

 

But this does not really explain Rand's new ability to light his pipe by just wishing it.

 

Do you mean that for the moment shortly after the big bang, TAR and the "only" new real world are still the same and not seperated from eachother so that Rand could use the abilities from TAR and just "willing" something into existance?

 

That might make sense.

 

The longer the new world exists, the more "choices" will have been made and thus TAR differentiates itself again from the normal world in order to caputre all those possible choices. The further they drift apart the less likely it will be to use the "willing" ability in the real world.

[wotfan4472]

Much like Aslan's creation song in the Magician's Nephew, but more adult like ;D

[longwa]

In reading through this thread last night I'm struck by the number of people that separate the ability for people to have free will and the destruction of the DO. In my reading of the final chapters, it seems clear that the Dark One represents one side of choices and the Light represents the other side. You can't kill the DO and keep the ability to choose any more than you could remove one side from a coin and still have it choose heads or tails.

 

The pattern should be neutral and the choice between Light and Dark evenly woven around the pattern. This is the state into which Rand returned the world. The Bore simply creates an imbalance and allows the DO to exert more influence over the world. The pattern responds by balancing that equation and spitting out the Dragon. The more out of balance the equation gets (as the DO gets closer to the world), the more powerful the response. This is similar, in some ways, to Neo and the Matrix.

 

As an aside, It seems that they could Bore not into the Dark and True Power but into the Light and the True Source. That would have the opposite effect in that, for awhile, the world would be overly weighted toward "good". The pattern would respond by putting out a Shadow Dragon equivalent who would eventually seal that Bore and return things to balance. 

[Agitel]

In reading through this thread last night I'm struck by the number of people that separate the ability for people to have free will and the destruction of the DO. In my reading of the final chapters, it seems clear that the Dark One represents one side of choices and the Light represents the other side. You can't kill the DO and keep the ability to choose any more than you could remove one side from a coin and still have it choose heads or tails.

 

The pattern should be neutral and the choice between Light and Dark evenly woven around the pattern. This is the state into which Rand returned the world. The Bore simply creates an imbalance and allows the DO to exert more influence over the world. The pattern responds by balancing that equation and spitting out the Dragon. The more out of balance the equation gets (as the DO gets closer to the world), the more powerful the response. This is similar, in some ways, to Neo and the Matrix.

 

As an aside, It seems that they could Bore not into the Dark and True Power but into the Light and the True Source. That would have the opposite effect in that, for awhile, the world would be overly weighted toward "good". The pattern would respond by putting out a Shadow Dragon equivalent who would eventually seal that Bore and return things to balance. 

 

The True Source is already available to the touch. I think what you're trying to say is that they could tap into the essence of the Creator himself. As the opposite of the Dark One, though, the Creator has no desire to touch or influence the world in any way. He would not try to eradicate the DO or the Shadow. I don't think the Creator would be around for anybody to sense or tap into. I think he exists in the same "realm" as the DO, anyway.

[Nae'blis]

Is it just me, or does it seem like the Pattern conceded to the Dark One in the Age of Legends. I find that a little bizarre. After all, we hear nothing of ta'veren in the 2nd age and they are supposed to be by-and-large the Pattern's correcting mechanism. I would've suspected in the days of the War the Pattern would be spewing them out like crazy.

[Suttree]

Nothing of ta'veren? What about LTT? I would be shocked if LPD didn't become one during the breaking as well.

[Nae'blis]

I just would've expected that we'd have heard of more, though I guess in retrospect maybe there were but we just haven't been told. LPD would've been a good one. 

 

But it was my understanding that ta'veren themselves are spun tighter than any other thread. Perhaps I'm wrong but if that is true, why did it allow LTT to seal the bore improperly? 

 

Also, more importantly, doesn't the concept of ta'veren fly in the face of this idea of choice we hear of from Rand? 

[Thad¸ the Stallyn]

What if Rand's pipe was just a ter'angreal?

[Cirin]

Clearly the pipe did not actually light itself.  The book clearly says that would be impossible.  An impossible pipe.  The only logical conclusion is that since the Dark One couldn't taint saidar or saidin this time, he tainted everything else.  Now channelers will be fine, but everyone who can't channel will go nuts.  But since no one cares about people who can't channel anyway, all will be well again.

 

 

Or maybe since Moridin was already, uh... unhinged... now that Rand has his body Rand is crazier than a fruit bat.  The rest of Rand's continuing story will read like Don Quixote.

[Suttree]

 Perhaps I'm wrong but if that is true, why did it allow LTT to seal the bore improperly? 

It's simply the pattern of that age. Both RJ and Herid Fel told us this:

 

LoC Ch. 18

 "Yes, you do. You’d make a good student." Snatching his pipe out, Herid drew a circle in the air with the stem. "The Wheel of Time. Ages come and go and come again as the Wheel turns. All the catechism." Suddenly he stabbed a point on that imaginary wheel. "Here the Dark One’s prison is whole. Here, they drilled a hole in it, and sealed it up again." He moved the bit of the pipe along the arc he had drawn. "Here we are. The seal’s weakening. But that doesn’t matter, of course." The pipestem completed the circle. "When the Wheel turns back to here, back to where they drilled the hole in the first place, the Dark One’s prison has to be whole again."

 

 

Interview: Nov 11th, 1997

Barnes and Noble Chat (Verbatim)

Brandon from Mission Viejo

Mr. Jordan, It's fairly common knowledge that the Dark One was bound by the Creator outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation. Would it then be safe to assume, after concepts brought to light in the new release, that the world before the opening of the prison never knew true evil? If so, then was each age before the opening of the Age of Legends different facets of some utopia? As well, without major conflict between good and evil, what caused ages to pass? Thanks.

Robert Jordan

Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a make-shift manner. But following this line the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless of course, the Dark One breaks free in which case all bets are off, kick over the table and run for the window.

This is why it was always pretty ridiculous when people claimed that this was actually the "last battle".

[Curtis]

I am curious about what everyon thinks about this theory:

 

Shai'tan is the manifestation of consciousness in the True Power derived from Elan/Moridin.

 

The True Power is just the power existing in the void outside the pattern. The One Power is the power existing within the pattern. Each is the antithesis of the other and both must exist separate, but in balance with the other for the pattern to exist.

 

When Elan made the bore, he was the first to touch the True Power, went instantly insane from the effect of the power, and his evil consciousness was imprinted on the True Power in the form of Shai'tan. Both exist together and separate simultaneously, not even fully understanding their interconnectedness.

 

The bore allowed the True Power to touch the pattern. It created an imbalance that would have destroyed the pattern if allowed to spread. When Lews Therin sealed the bore, he slowed the effect of the True Power on the pattern, but his seal created by the One Power alone could not permanently hold the True Power since the powers are each other’s antithesis. The pattern created the Dragon Reborn to cure the imbalance. But Rand could not cure it alone since he represented only the One Power. Moridin was also required as the representation of the True Power within the pattern. Thus, Rand and Moridin were linked by the pattern and were both necessary to restore balance.

 

Shai'tan/Moridin wanted to use the True Power to reform the pattern in his image. Rand wanted to bring peace to the pattern by destroying the True Power. Both were wrong, the pattern cannot exist without the proper balance, that is why Rand had to destroy the bore, not the True Power.

 

That is why Moridin believed he was Shai'tan---he was to certain extent.

That is why Rand and Moridin affected each other like they did in Shadar Logoth---they represented each other’s antithesis.

That is why Moridin was named Nae'blis by Shai'tan---he consciously or unconsciously favored himself.

That is why Moridin was the only one at the bore when Rand arrived---it was their final battle.

That is why Rand and Moridin were both frozen while Rand was touching the bore---they were having a battle of consciousness within the bore.

That is why Rand was affected when Moridin stabbed himself---the proximity to the bore affected their connected much like it did with the Real World and Dream World.

 

Thus, Rand could not destroy the True Power because what he clawed out of the bore was not the True Power, rather Shai'tan (Moridin's consciousness within the True Power). Rand had to use both powers to destroy the bore, but by leaving Shai'tan on the other side, he removed Moridin from his own consciousness. That is why Moridin slowly died, the body cannot survive very long without the mind. However, as Androl and Pevara showed us, consciousness can be transferred between certain people when linked. The same happened with Rand and Moridin. Rand was already in Moridin's body as he stumbled out of the bore, and Moridin was in Rand's body. That is why it was Rand's body that was slowly dying, it was Moridin.

 

Also, while Rand can't channel anymore, it appears that he can still use the new Pure Power that he created by combining Saidin and Saidar by means of thought alone. Does this mean that anyone can now learn to use the Pure Power?

 

[Cirin]

When Elan made the bore, he was the first to touch the True Power, went instantly insane from the effect of the power, and his evil consciousness was imprinted on the True Power in the form of Shai'tan. Both exist together and separate simultaneously, not even fully understanding their interconnectedness.

 

I was just going to mention that Elan Morin didn't make the Bore... Lanfear (Meirin) and Beidomon (or something - someone else will remember his name) did.

[Suttree]

 

When Elan made the bore, he was the first to touch the True Power, went instantly insane from the effect of the power, and his evil consciousness was imprinted on the True Power in the form of Shai'tan. Both exist together and separate simultaneously, not even fully understanding their interconnectedness.

 

I was just going to mention that Elan Morin didn't make the Bore... Lanfear (Meirin) and Beidomon (or something - someone else will remember his name) did.

Indeed Beidomon is correct. We have already been told by RJ that a number of things in Curtis' theory are incorrect.

[clu7ch]

Here's how it went down. RJ wrote the Eye of the World, it went over good. People started speculating rampantly. He decided then that it was time to kill the speculations, make them go insane and eventually snap under the pressure of speculation. Instead of ending the series in 6 books, he decided to stretch it out and have it all boil down to one eternally unanswered question that will be the subject of debate for literally hundreds of years. WTF with the pipe? 

[Cirin]

 

 

When Elan made the bore, he was the first to touch the True Power, went instantly insane from the effect of the power, and his evil consciousness was imprinted on the True Power in the form of Shai'tan. Both exist together and separate simultaneously, not even fully understanding their interconnectedness.

 

I was just going to mention that Elan Morin didn't make the Bore... Lanfear (Meirin) and Beidomon (or something - someone else will remember his name) did.

Indeed Beidomon is correct. We have already been told by RJ that a number of things in Curtis' theory are incorrect.

 

Further proof that Bayle Domon needs to be watched like a hawk.  The second Boring may be closer at hand than humanity thinks.  Never trust an Illianer, that's what my pappy always said.  Especially one who gives up smuggling to marry a Seanchan officer.

[Ruth]

I haven't come across this in the comments but I haven't read all of them either so if already said, sorry. The Dragon's Peace wasn't just about forcing the nations to peacefully deal with each other but it also forced each nation to set up a great school in each capital, fully funded and with doors open to those who wish to learn. This will have a much bigger impact on the world over time than the forced peace. It will allow the common person to learn history, reading, math and foster creative analysis. It will likely reduce the power of the WT over time as it will not be the only repository of knowledge. These schools will foster the development of wonders like those of the Age of Legends and the story of Rand and why he demanded these schools will become common knowledge so that maybe this new age will not make the same mistakes as the Aol. One can hope. I found it interesting that no one in the tent even batted an eye about the great schools instead focused on the locking of the borders and who would enforce it.

[AshaShan]

I haven't come across this in the comments but I haven't read all of them either so if already said, sorry. The Dragon's Peace wasn't just about forcing the nations to peacefully deal with each other but it also forced each nation to set up a great school in each capital, fully funded and with doors open to those who wish to learn. This will have a much bigger impact on the world over time than the forced peace. It will allow the common person to learn history, reading, math and foster creative analysis. It will likely reduce the power of the WT over time as it will not be the only repository of knowledge. These schools will foster the development of wonders like those of the Age of Legends and the story of Rand and why he demanded these schools will become common knowledge so that maybe this new age will not make the same mistakes as the Aol. One can hope. I found it interesting that no one in the tent even batted an eye about the great schools instead focused on the locking of the borders and who would enforce it.

 

True that. I'm hoping Rand will make some incognito appearances at those schools to share some of his AOL knowledge with them. Be a shame to waste it wandering around.

[BaLefireP]

I know I am a bit late in the game here, so my apologies.

 

We know that Robert Jordan wrote the whole series off of opposites equaling the other out to create balance in their world: 

 

1. Creator and DO
2. Men and Women
3. Saidin and Saidar 

 

Rand goes and reseals the DO back to where he came from using saidar, saidin, and the TP. The TP is from the DO, and saidar and saidin from the Creator. Thus the only reason the bore closed up on itself and became non existent is because Rand used an equal amounts of saidar, saidin, wrapped in the TP, where as LTT only uses saidin?

 

The Aes Sedai from the AoL only wanted the TP in the first place because their Initial research showed it could be used by both genders without the known limitations that the OP had. So if both genders could use the TP just the same, would there not be some power source that was of the Creator that both genders could use? Excluding the OP since it was separated into saidin and saidar, one for each gender.