Taimandred -- the Switcheroo

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

Re-reading LoC, every scene with Taim makes me SO ANGRY. Angry at RJ. Taimandred was a beautiful theory. Graceful, ironic, well-supported, and logical in all respects. Every thing Taim says, thinks, does is perfect reasonable from Demandred in disguise (his disgust over the pool of wannabe channelers waiting at the farm, indeed his disgust over the role Rand assigned him, things he knows that he shouldn't reasonably have been expected to learn on his own, referring to 'Traveling' which he should now have known, his general antipathy to Rand and scorn for AS). LTT's reactions anytime Taim is near (always wanting to kill him, saying how he would FINALLY kill him, and not to trust him, occasional blatherings about the Forsaken in general and Demandred in particular)... well, I don't need to go on. We all know the evidence supporting that particular theory.

 

*observes moment of silence*

 

Reason I'm posting is to inquire if anyone else thinks that RJ did intentionally write Taim to be Demandred and then for some unknown reason changed his mind. I'm trying not to be biased, but when I reread this book, everything was set up exactly unfold as Taim being Demandred, EVERY clue was there. And then in WH, finally there was some conclusive contrary evidence thrown in (and RJ's finally confirming it) and Dashiva shows up making two masquerading Foresaken in the BT redundant.

 

Some people say Taim was supposed to be a red herring, but I don't buy that. A good mystery gives you the surface, obvious clues (not too obvious!) clues that, in this case, Taim is Demandred, but then when it's revealed to be a false trail, a reader should be able to go back from the beginning and see how they were mislead. But that's not the case here. We were only ever fed evidence of Taimandred. Until WH, and the sudden revearsal.

 

This presupposes that RJ is making the story out as he goes along to some extent (not the final outcome presumably), which I have no trouble believing--the story has seemed to snowball out of his control these last few books.

 

RJ also said (per the FAQ) that Demandred's alias is someone we have not met in the story yet, which is convenient if RJ had intended Taimandred and then changed his mind and was suddenly needing a nook to shove Demandred into.

 

So, I guess this is my Taimandred theory. It WAS correct, but RJ randomly decided to switch him out on us.

 

Or maybe I just can't admit to being wrong? 8) Thoughts?

[Cybertrolloc]

Most annoying is that Taim's physical description and character traits match Dem so well. We haven't gotten too much more description on either since LoC, and I don't think there's much new in the way of their personalities either.

 

I think it would be a conscious choice too, how could an editor have missed those similarities (they're introduced within a handful of pages of each other)? Especially since nearly the same words are used in describing each.

 

The thing that will save things for me would be to have Dem doing something cool since LoC (outside of planning/preparing the military side of the Shadow's strategy for TG).

[Gaul]

Maybe a blood relation somehow?

 

With some speculation of Taim being a DF or a Forsaken (new one)He coulda lived for 3k years and awaited his bros return.Lol.Highly doubt it.Or Dem can be Taims great great great.... and so on Grandfather or uncle or something?

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

Yeah, it's one thing for RJ to set us on a false trail, but this was too thorough.

 

If you look at TSR, with Keille (sp?) and Jasin Natael and Kadere and Isendre. RJ clearly meant for us all to think Kadere and Isendre were the dangerous ones, Forsaken in disguise. But when you go back, you can see how that was just a cover-up.

 

Maybe it's just going back and re-reading again since we know so much more about Demandred now than we knew when LoC first came out, but I wonder if it seemed so blatantly set up for Taimandred as it does now. I mean, we know more from the Guide and from subsequent sequels, that to us Taim seems remarkably similar to Taim. Did it seem so obvious when we all first read LoC?

 

The good mystery writer should give you clues and false clues to lead you awry. If all the Taimandred clues were the false clues, then where is the evidence to tell us that they were false. We should be able to go back through LoC and find quotes and POVs where we think "Oh, see, that there would mean that he wouldn't be Demandred." I don't know of any such passages.

 

I think RJ just randomly changed his mind here.

 

Still irritated about it obviously. :P

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

Maybe a blood relation somehow?

 

With some speculation of Taim being a DF or a Forsaken (new one)He coulda lived for 3k years and awaited his bros return.Lol.Highly doubt it.Or Dem can be Taims great great great.... and so on Grandfather or uncle or something?

 

Hehe' date=' may be more plausbile than Taim having nothing to do with Demandred!

 

Oh, oops, according to RJ they have nothing to do with each other. Except possibly being Darkfriends.

 

Which makes another point. Demandred and Taim are, essentially, the same exact character. Their appearances are the same (as far as we know), and their attitudes to Rand are identical, and their positions relative to Rand--him having put them in a supporting role--are/were the same, and if Taim is a Darkfriend then they both are the same in that respect. Why would RJ write the same character twice, unless he originally intended them to be the same (Graendal, Sammael, Be'lal, and Asmodean all did not wear Masks to hide their true appearance, and Dem seems arrogant enough to be himself to Rand and expect him to not catch on)? Demandred would not be reborn when he's still alive, not like, theoretically, Ilyena. It just doesn't make sense I tell you!! Argh! :evil: [/color']

[chuckievi]

See its so clever because if RJ charged $100 for the last book, in which you would get all your Dem answers.... you'd totally pay it just to know. Hes leading us by the nose!

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

See its so clever because if RJ charged $100 for the last book' date=' in which you would get all your Dem answers.... you'd totally pay it just to know. Hes leading us by the nose![/quote']

 

Well, yes. Except I doubt there will be sufficient answers. I don't see how he can possibly wrap up all threads in a satisfying resolution and answer all our questions in one volume. I fervently hope I'm wrong!

 

I don't care so much about Demandred. He's hiding somewhere as someone that we apparently haven't met yet. I want to know Taim's story though. And if he turns out to be nothing more than what he is... I'll... I'll... eat the entire series of books in protest!

[SBoydW]

Well, yes. Except I doubt there will be sufficient answers. I don't see how he can possibly wrap up all threads in a satisfying resolution and answer all our questions in one volume. I fervently hope I'm wrong!

 

He will.. You'll just have to hire a crane to carry the ting around for you.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Or maybe I just can't admit to being wrong?

 

Yes. Thats it. :D

 

Mean ain't I?

 

Actually, I really do think it was deliberate misdirection from the start. Decently close physical descriptions, Demandred being the key Forsaken in the book that has Taim showing up (LoC), strength in the Power close enough that its plausible, etc. I love being tricked by an author, and I did believe Taimandred until I read reliably that Jordan denied it. So, I kind of like the fact that Taim is just what he appears to be: a modern Darkfriend, possibly modern Chosen.

 

Also, regarding this:

 

Well, yes. Except I doubt there will be sufficient answers. I don't see how he can possibly wrap up all threads in a satisfying resolution and answer all our questions in one volume. I fervently hope I'm wrong!

 

I doubt he'll be able to wrap up ALL the loose ends, but he'll get the major ones, and be more willing to clear up the smaller ones in interviews, etc. After all, he won't be as able to use the infamous RAFO on us anymore. Also, we should get more in that companion Encyclopaedia CD I've heard bandied about.

 

And if anyone brings up the "Mat and Tuon 10 years after" outrigger books ... I'll just scream.

[Meliane]

A few things no one mentioned that really made me think Taim was Demandred... Things that really bug me now!

 

One is the way Bashere seems not to recognize him immediately when Taim first appears in Caemlyn, but then Taim says, "I shaved." (When Superman takes off the glasses, we can still tell he's Clark Kent)

 

Secondly is the fact that I read Taim calling either the Aes Sedai or the Aiel "so-called." I can't remember which ones he said that about. But whenever someone called the Aes Sedai or Aiel "so-called" it was because they were from the Age of Legends. Both Aes Sedai and Aiel were completely different in the Age of Legends.

 

Thirdly, and this is really small.. Rand notices Taim's coat somewhere, and Rand starts to think that he knows about thread-of-gold, but how does the blue part shine so? This struck me as a clue that Taim had access to some special cloth/fabric much like the lady Forsaken with their streith gowns.

 

Not to mention all the things you've said. "Let the Lord of Chaos rule." The way their physical descriptions are so similar. The way Taim wanted to be Rand's co-leader when he first appeared in Caemlyn (as opposed to being his subordinate). The way he scowls and gets all upset whenever Rand gave him the sword and Dragon pins. I mean this could all be coincidence. It seems obvious that Taim is an arrogant Darkfriend.

 

But Taimandred was a beautiful theory. Grrr.

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

Secondly is the fact that I read Taim calling either the Aes Sedai or the Aiel "so-called." I can't remember which ones he said that about. But whenever someone called the Aes Sedai or Aiel "so-called" it was because they were from the Age of Legends. Both Aes Sedai and Aiel were completely different in the Age of Legends.

 

Thirdly' date=' and this is really small.. Rand notices Taim's coat somewhere, and Rand starts to think that he knows about thread-of-gold, but how does the blue part shine so? This struck me as a clue that Taim had access to some special cloth/fabric much like the lady Forsaken with their streith gowns.

 

...

 

But Taimandred [i']was[/i] a beautiful theory. Grrr.

 

I read the "so-called Aiel" section a few days ago, and the "thread-of-blue" scene earlier today and it fueled my anger.

 

SO-CALLED AIEL. Why would Taim refer to them in such a manner? No plausible reason at all other than he had first-hand experience with AoL Aiel. Grr, that bugs me. That's not a red-herring that's just... unaccountable slips.

 

*headdesk*

[RobertAlexWillis]

SO-CALLED AIEL. Why would Taim refer to them in such a manner? No plausible reason at all other than he had first-hand experience with AoL Aiel. Grr, that bugs me. That's not a red-herring that's just... unaccountable slips.

 

Actually, I think its the result of being trained by Ishamael to use the Power (before all this started), and getting Ishy's prejudices rubbed off.

[Meliane]

I completely agree Wynne. I'm with you 100%, headbangs and all.

 

I wonder why RJ would even answer a question about Taim being Demandred. Why didn't he use his ever-witty RAFO?

 

And why make it so blatant that Taim is so Demandredy?

 

DOUBLE GRRRRRR.

[Jellybelly]

It is as Robert said: Deliberate deception on the part of the author. There is really no point getting hung up on this, as your reading of LoC is obviously erroneous, and not the only one possible.

 

RJ made it blatant that Taim is "Demandredy" for a very good reason, namely to mirror between Rand and Taim the relationship Lews Therin had with Demandred. All the references to Demandred in Rand's dealings with Taim in LoC points this out. The series is heavily concerned with the theme of repetion, as I am sure most of you will have noticed, so the fact that one of the Dragon's most trusted supporters turn against him should not indicate that these are one and the same. As I see it, the references to Demandred made by Lews Therin is made to draw attention to how Rand is making the same mistakes with Taim that Lews Therin made with Demandred. A mirror situation is created.

 

Also, the "so-called Aiel" statement is easily explained. Most people who have a modicum of education in the world of the Wheel know some of the Old Tongue. In Taim's case, he probably knew that "aiel" means "dedicated", and found reason to think this ironic. It does not indicate that he is from the Age of Legends, but it works brilliantly as narratorial subterfuge.

[Thor]

I always just thought that RJ used Taim to illustrate how Demandred and some others may have turned to the shadows.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I read the series through Crossroads of Twilight I think it was before I really paid any attention to the theories people posted. Most of the books had been read 2, 3, 4, some 5 times by then. When I first saw people talking about Taimandred, I couldn't believe what I was reading. Never having believed the theory, I never had any problems accempting RJ's statements against it.

 

I'm too skeptical of virtually every theory that readers post to buy into any of them. I usually find the poster is trying to do a dot-to-dot without looking at the numbers.

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

It is as Robert said: Deliberate deception on the part of the author. There is really no point getting hung up on this' date=' as your reading of LoC is obviously erroneous, and not the only one possible.

 

...

 

Also, the "so-called Aiel" statement is easily explained. Most people who have a modicum of education in the world of the Wheel know some of the Old Tongue. In Taim's case, he probably knew that "aiel" means "dedicated", and found reason to think this ironic. It does not indicate that he is from the Age of Legends, but it works brilliantly as narratorial subterfuge.[/quote']

 

You say that my reading is erroneous, but also a possibility, albeit not the only one. Your words.

 

I have been discussing the alleged "deliberate deception" numerous times in this post. Either RJ is lying to cover his change of mind, or he's simply not very good at it.

 

Has there been another situation in the series that has exactly mirrored a situation from the AoL, specifically pertaining to LTT? Anything even close? This is not the type of repition you claim.

 

Your explanation of so-called Aiel is not strong... Yes, anyone (and no doubt many people) know the translation of "aiel" as "dedicated". But "dedicated" to what? War? The spear? The Three-Fold Land? It's been made very clear that no one else knew the history of the Aiel by this point. Not even most of the Aiel themselves, and the clan chiefs/WOs were certainly not going to spread their shame for any outsider to write about. The only books we know of that were written about the Aiel seemed wildly off-base. How would this seem ironic to Taim without knowing of the original purpose of the Aiel?

 

Also, why would RJ be both trying to impishly mislead us and also be innocuously trying to stir up some ironic 'history repeats itself' moments?

 

I'm not buying it.

 

Next, RJ will say that Olver is Asmodean reborn and he has been deliberately misleading us about that too.

 

(P.S. - no mean tone implied... I like a good, multi-faceted debate... except that we will enver know for sure who is right. If RJ did just change his mind and is trying to cover his tracks it's not like he would admit it. *shrug*

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

I read the series through Crossroads of Twilight I think it was before I really paid any attention to the theories people posted. Most of the books had been read 2' date=' 3, 4, some 5 times by then. When I first saw people talking about Taimandred, I couldn't believe what I was reading. Never having believed the theory, I never had any problems accempting RJ's statements against it.

 

I'm too skeptical of virtually every theory that readers post to buy into any of them. I usually find the poster is trying to do a dot-to-dot without looking at the numbers.[/quote']

 

Like I said, after WH, RJ made it plain that he no longer wanted us thinking Taim was Demandred, so maybe your perception was colored by that. Who knows. People jump into the series at different points and so have different feelings about the characters, etc.

 

A lot of theories I dismiss too. But we knew then that the Forsaken are all out there hiding in plain sight, so we were in a hide-and-seek trying to locate them all in their disguises.

[stoneface]

I understand Wynne's frustration; my first post was on Taim and Demandred. The attitudes, figures of speech, strategies, physical description (including Davram's confusion), etc., made the two look identical. Since Taim's "escape" could have been his obliteration (all sisters not in the plot killed?), it seemed very plausible. Then several other contributors who I will not list (Robert, I see you have changed your tag line) pointed out some of RJ's answers provided outside of the books. First, MT is not D. Second, MT is not posing as D. I checked the references; short of an outright lie or major misquote, I don't see any wiggle room.

 

Some of the Forsaken were handed to us on a silver platter (Rahvin is Gaebril, Sammael is whats-his-face in Illian, Beleal's a High Lord in Tear, not to mention the two iced in tEotW), some are still hidden. Probably RJ had the Taim/Demandred thing all planned out; a mid-course correction of that magnitude would be a disappointment.

 

In my rereading, I am about to start LOC, and I will check all the context around the Taim/Demandred clues to see if I can pick up any hints that the whole thing is a red herring.

 

Regarding the length of the final book, think about what happened in the last 100-odd pages of tEotW and tGH. Constant action, anyone? Still, RJ's descriptions are a huge part of the magic on the series. I enjoy the creak of the harness leather, the feel of the breeze (not the chapter one wind) over the grass, all those little extra touches of an artist painting a picture that go into the books.

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

In my rereading' date=' I am about to start LOC, and I will check all the context around the Taim/Demandred clues to see if I can pick up any hints that the whole thing is a red herring.[/quote']

 

Good luck. I certainly couldn't find anything. But I guess we are all victims or our biases, so... 8)

[RobertAlexWillis]

I have been discussing the alleged "deliberate deception" numerous times in this post. Either RJ is lying to cover his change of mind, or he's simply not very good at it.

 

I have to say, in all honesty, I don't think the "planned deception" option has been disproven, even though you casually dismiss it there. There is nothing that Taim has done that has to have been done by Demandred. The situation just means that Jordan thought way ahead.

 

And frankly, since there are prophecies from all the way back in The Eye of the World that are only now coming to fruition, specific things that were basically unrecognizable until we saw them, I think its not a stretch to say that Jordan had thought way ahead.

 

There are reasonable explanations for similar appearance (some people just look similar). There are even reasonable explanations for similar actions/attitudes (bad people with lots of Power often act in a similar fashion). While Taim is not Demandred, I imagine he's had contact with both Demandred and Ishamael/Moridin. I think Taim is a Forsaken-educated Darkfriend, and has been for years. Before the taint was cleansed, the Shadow had a unique bargaining position with him. Whether he chose to join the Shadow, or is a victim of the 13/13 turning mechanism, being taught by one of the Forsaken would account for much of his attitude and general bearing (as well as his specific knowledge of many weaves, and Aiel history).

 

Given the unequivocal way Jordan has said "No, Taim is not Demandred," and the level of advance planning we've seen in the series, it seems unlikely to me that this is the result of wishi-washiness or a coverup for a flip-flop.

 

Having thought that Taim was Demandred myself for a time, and then having to look at it again when RJ said he's not, I didn't see anything that I could point to and say "This is the proof that I was right and you're the one who changed". They're just similar fellas.

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

I have to say' date=' in all honesty, I don't think the "planned deception" option hasn't been [i']disproven[/i], even though you casually dismiss it there. There is nothing that Taim has done that has to have been done by Demandred.

 

...

 

While Taim is not Demandred, I imagine he's had contact with both Demandred and Ishamael/Moridin. I think Taim is a Forsaken-educated Darkfriend, and has been for years.

 

...

 

Given the unequivocal way Jordan has said "No, Taim is not Demandred," and the level of advance planning we've seen in the series, it seems unlikely to me that this is the result of wishi-washiness or a coverup for a flip-flop.

 

No, obviously it can't be proven one way or the other (as I just said above). Whether anything Taim did (pre-WH) HAD to have been done by Dem is a matter of (considerably controversial) opinion obviously.

 

A meeting between Taim and Demandred would be super awkward, as I imagine it! :shock: Like one day you meet your mirror-image doppleganger at a job interview and you eye each other in disbelief and hostility. Or like when Lan and Rhuarc had their little "showdown" in TSR, but without the humor. But who can say? Hopefully we will find out in the end if Taim is in fact a DF and thus almost certainly under the thumb of one of the Forsaken.

 

If RJ did change his mind, he couldn't and wouldn't and shouldn't say that in an interview! "Um, yes Taim was supposed to be Dem, but... you know I think I changed my mind there and I'll make him someone else."

 

As for advance planning... I think to some extent He knows the fates of the important characters and where he wants everyone to "end up". But aside from that I think that the story has gotten a little out of control. He's dug himself a hole with so many characters and little unnecessary sub-plots that he HAS to move along that the last few books have, of necessity, crawled along, barely advancing the main plot at all. So, no, I don't think he has/had the last few books carefully mapped out, and I think there is room in there for moving characters around as long as the final outcome is preserved.

[Jellybelly]

First of all I have to say that I disagree that the books have spiraled out of authorial control, and that nothing has happened in the later books to forward the plot. My experience is totally different. Certainly, it may have seemed that way after waiting years for a new instalment, but on reading the books back to back, it is my opinion that all the books are well-paced. I found Crossroads of Twilight nearly impossible to lay down on my latest read-through. I do not think the marginal characters are excess-characters, the same way I do not think you are an unnecessary human being because you have not solved the HIV riddle. They give vibrancy to the story.

 

There are some points you make, though, that are valid, and addressed by Jordan. You are right that he does not have everything mapped out in advance. He has said several times that he has had the major events plotted out ever since he started, but that he fills in the blanks as he goes in order to make the characters reach the points he has set for them. Thus, details that are minor in terms of plot are somewhat fluid, ie. the Bowl of the Winds could have been in another town, etc. I am quite certain that he would not change a major plot item, such as Demandred posing as Mazrim Taim on a whim, especially seen in the light of the substantial level of advance planning seen in the series. Jordan has said on several occasions that he has never changed something in the series because a fan had "found him out". As I see it, the Taimandred theory does not give any reason to doubt the validity of this claim.

 

To me, the only way you can not accept this is if you have convinced yourself that there is no logical way Mazrim Taim cannot be Demandred.

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

To me' date=' the only way you can not accept this is if you have convinced yourself that there is no logical way Mazrim Taim cannot be Demandred.[/quote']

 

RJ says he is not. Thus he's not. RJ could say that Bashere is Demandred and we would have to accept it as such.

 

The evidence prior to WH did not conclusively say one way or the other, which is why the debate on both sides of the Taimandred fence was so heated.

 

As of WH, it was clear that Taimandred no longer exists.

 

I'm not disputing that, obviously. There IS no disputing it.

 

My little suspicion is that the author changed his mind. And it's not something we will ever know for sure. RJ would certainly never admit it, if it were true, for which I can't blame him. And it's not something that can probably ever be proved or disproved satisfactorily from what's in the book.

 

It's just my opinion/suspicion/accusation/what-have-you. Probably those who were big Taimandred proponents are more likely to agree, and those who never were are likely to disagree or ignore. C'est la vie...

[SBoydW]

As of WH, it was clear that Taimandred no longer exists

 

I'm only on my first read of the books, (well I sarted about 5-6 years ago and read like the first 2 and half of the third)but, and maybe I'm just simple and unoriginal, but I never saw Taim as anyone else but Taim.