Not In The Book Discussion (Full Spoilers)

[mbuehner]

We see an agreement between Egwene and Fortuona whereby Seanchan people will be allowed to set up shop in Tar Valon to encourage people to want to be collared. This is only agreed to if Aes Sedai are allowed to do the same to any women who wear the collar.

 

Is this really what the agreement says? I need to go back and reread, but my initial impression was there were gaps big enough to drive a steam wagon through. IE- 'Our Sul'dam just spent a month viciously breaking in the damane and then asked if they wanted their collars removed'. Surprise, none said yes. Or if they did maybe they beat them for another month and asked again until they got the correct answer.

 

Regardless, unless something with the Aiel drastically changed circumstances, we know that the damane still existed in the future and the Seanchan were still willing to forcibly collar women (as they ended up doing in Andor much to their benefit).

[athrian]

 

ToM

She shook off the worrying; she had work to do. Was she following the wrong thread? Was she interpreting in the wrong way? She read the line again. Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

 

Doesn't that refer more to the fact that Rand can (and does) grab the "entirety" of the DO and holds him at his mercy?

[wRAR]

 

 

ToM

She shook off the worrying; she had work to do. Was she following the wrong thread? Was she interpreting in the wrong way? She read the line again. Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

 

Doesn't that refer more to the fact that Rand can (and does) grab the "entirety" of the DO and holds him at his mercy?

I thought so. But it can also refer to "Light" (Rand) seized by the DO, and to a Callandor user whoever he is seized by other channellers (whatever are they able to do to the user).

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

I think we should consider the possibility that the reason so much went unanswered is because the author died before filling in all the holes and Sanderson eschewed inventing his own explanations.

 

 

I agree. I wonder if "Aviendha meets woman who influences her on way to Rhuidean" was in the notes and Brandon just ran with it. We all assume he knew everything. Many times, writers don't know what they're about until they get there. I'm sure RJ didn't have every little detail spelled out for him.

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

Did I miss something?  I understand that the channeling red-veiled Aiel were male Aiel channlers that went to fight the shadow and they were turned.  Did we ever get an explanation as to where all the non-channeling red-veiled Aiel came from?  I was surprised how many there were.  Were there any red-veil maidens? 

 

 

They mention that the RV Aiel with filed teeth were turned and the RV aiel channelers without filed teeth were brought up in the town. I'm guessing that the others were born from the turned ones having sex captured women. So, the unfiled teeth RV Aiel and their non-channeler brethren probably come from the turned aiel.

[Suttree]

 

I think we should consider the possibility that the reason so much went unanswered is because the author died before filling in all the holes and Sanderson eschewed inventing his own explanations.

 

 

I agree. I wonder if "Aviendha meets woman who influences her on way to Rhuidean" was in the notes and Brandon just ran with it. We all assume he knew everything. Many times, writers don't know what they're about until they get there. I'm sure RJ didn't have every little detail spelled out for him.

The concept for Nakomi came from something Brandon found "deep in the notes". The character and her place in the story was 100% Brandon.

[Guest Steven Warner]

Uh... OK, I get it, different author and probably a ferocious timeline to get the book done... But...

 

What the heck happened at the dam? The people were sent there, they died while defending it, then they came back. Explanation please?

 

Next, when/how did Rand do the body swap? Did he drag the Forsaken out with him and then swapped, or did he swap before and the people outside saw a forsaken drag the Dragon out with him? It incongruous.

 

What is so different about one of the children Elayne is carrying? My theory was that she was going to be Bridget's new mommy, but now not so much. It was hinted at several times in the past books and now the only implied explanation is out.

 

Don't get me wrong. I have been following this series for 23 years and I am glad that it is finished. I am just sorely disappointed at how many loose ends were ignored and how rushed the entire thing was. Sorry folks, but this series finished weak.

[Faluzure]

Uh... OK, I get it, different author and probably a ferocious timeline to get the book done... But...

 

What the heck happened at the dam?1) The people were sent there, they died while defending it, then they came back. Explanation please?

 

2) Next, when/how did Rand do the body swap? Did he drag the Forsaken out with him and then swapped, or did he swap before and the people outside saw a forsaken drag the Dragon out with him? It incongruous.

 

What is so different about one of the children Elayne is carrying? My theory was that she was going to be Bridget's new mommy, but now not so much. It was hinted at several times in the past books and now the only implied explanation is out.

 

Don't get me wrong. I have been following this series for 23 years and I am glad that it is finished. I am just sorely disappointed at how many loose ends were ignored and how rushed the entire thing was. Sorry folks, but this series finished weak.

 

1) They were from Hinderstrap, the town where the people killed each other (and anyone in the town after sundown) at night only to find that at dawn they woke back up in their beds. I would REALLY like to know if their town reverted back to normal once the Bore was sealed, I like to hope the pattern fixes itself in that regard.

 

2) The transfer happened in the tent, There is a line (from memory) that said that one body was dying and it was such a shame that it was the dragon and not the forsaken. Moridin was likely destroyed when so much of the TP was channelled through him and Callandor leaving him as an empty vessel. As an empty vessel, I don't think he would have been capable of motor function.

[matt123]

The biggest thing missing from the book was a single sentence.     If Brandon would have added this single sentence, then the book's ending would have been much more satisfying.

 

and the missing sentence from the final chapter is:   "Rand thought that he would visit the Tinkers first to teach them the song"

 

without this missing sentence, we really don't know if he ever teaches the song to any one!

 

The Tinkers split from the Aiel in violation of their duty to find the song. Even after the Aiel eventually leave the way of the leaf and face reality (with the wise one's having to be reminded of their past) the Tinkers still think they are doing the right thing by sticking to the way of the leaf. In AMOL the Tinkers way seems pathetic in the exchange between some tinker man and his wife, where his wife (seemingly indicative of typical tinker thinking) would rather live under the shadow then change their ways. Kind of like how the gaishan, think they are being honorable by not fighting when they should be. In a way the Aiel and their cousins the Tinkers share this extreme system of honor that without being tempered by a duty that is stronger then their honor will cause them to act wrongly. In any case the Tinkers were never supposed to be looking for the song in the first place and it would be strange if the pattern would cause that they should gain the ability to sing in the end.

 

In a way the Tinkers truly follow the way of the leaf they are blown this way and that, yet the pattern needs people who will try to make the world different. Back in the age of legends when war was unknown the way of the leaf was a way to live and made sense for people who would sing the growing songs, but in this age it is just out of place. Even the Ogier's go to war and fight furiously. The Ogier's do discover growing songs in the process, by none other than Loial who is 'hasty' and leads the Ogier to battle.

 

Giving the song to people who choose wrong and did not offer to fight when needed would just be wrong.

 

I think part of the problem many of us have with these books is that by having a different author finishing, perhaps some of the subtleties that RJ wanted to bring out and worked so hard for were not brought out well. I think also AMOL should have been expanded perhaps, but it was necessary for BS to wrap things up so several things were not brought out so well.

 

For example, the part with Shara coming into the battle should have been preceded with a chapter or two of Demandred musing over how he converted Shara to his cause. It should have spoken about his Sa'angrael that he has and it should have given a stronger background to his battleground madness with yelling for Rand. It is just too big of a thing to add in the last battle without giving something more. Also BS did not do well with conveying the amount of people involved with the last battle. At some point I feel as if I have no clue how many people are alive or dead and am just getting confused where all these groups still have warriors left. It is like a giant mulching machine where you see the wood getting mulched but you have no clue what size the pile of wood is. Also the Seanchean, seem relatively unscathed through this whole battle, which just does not make that much sense. Tuon had to have understood that the fight with Mat was a ploy yet she needs Min to force her into going back, it is so contradictory and does not add up. Then the thing with the glory of Logain is mostly a bust. He does not perform any great power feats. All he does is make a choice that the other Asha'men should have just made without him. They should not have supported him looking for his sa'angrael when they knew people needed saving. Yes they have some loyalty to Logain, but when did they become mindless followers of his? Logain needed a fight with a forsaken at the end (could have been Moghedien) where he shouts "you shall not pass" while defending the refugees. Seeing this and the terrible battle he undergoes (without the aid of the sa'angrael which he stopped looking for to defend the refugees) the people are awed by him and see the goodness of the asah'man. In the end his giving up power to do what is right is his true glory (kind of like the Rand theme with him destroying the choedan kaal as he realizes that just great power is not the way to win) and people revere him as a result. One more thing kind of shoved in is Min becoming truthspeaker. It is just too sudden and next thing you know she is dressed up in Seanchan clothing. RJ would have been more subtle I think if given the chance.

 

Oh, of course there is that whole thing with the voice in his head, which must be the creator as it is not the dark one and per the voice in the Eye of the World it is the creator. And then there is that Nakomi woman who shows up again at the time Rand leaves the cave saying something to Rand about how he is doing it right. Kind of confuses the heck out of any prior theories given for Nakomi before. Nothing I can think of or read actually makes any sense in explaining her. She is probably not Verin as her response to Aviendha on which sept she is from makes no sense. She is not Aviendha from the future as her interaction with Rand makes no sense then. She is not the creator as the creator speaks in Rand's head, so to have a second way of contacting Rand at the end is just not consistent.

 

Just one thought I do have is that the dark one is locked up outside the pattern but does exist to give people the ability to have free will to choose what is right. The creator is not locked up and presumably could directly affect the world but does not to allow the people free choice. The dragon is the one who has to decide if he kills the dark one or allows the dark one to remake the world, which in both cases removes free choice, or when he realizes that the dark one is an essential part of the world he chooses to reforge the barrier which allows people free choice yet removes the taint that their destructive bad choice caused. What I am getting at is that although the creator does not directly interfere with the world perhaps he does cause there to be 'bubbles' that can cause effects on the world. I think without seeing RJ's or BS's notes on this the speculation can be endless. Perhaps this should have been more fleshed out as it just leads to confusion in the end (Tom Bombadil in Tolkein is partly explained as being some ancient entity that is different, which is enough to accept that it is just part of Tolkein's world without having to fully understand him). By not giving any explanation for Nakomi or giving Nakomi any defining attributes, other then she knows more than she should and is present at two unique occasions, it is just very confusing and too open for interpretation.

 

What I am confused further about is that the book does not seem to need her to move the plot. Aviendha could have mused on these things herself without Nakomi's prompting. It is like she is stuck in there and does not give misdirection and yet really adds nothing to the story. Why would BS or RJ add a figure who is so strange to the story if it has no place in the rest of the story and does not add anything? Hence, I must conclude that possibly BS was intending to write Nakomi a bigger piece in AMOL but then due to time and space had to leave her out, but managed to stick her in at the end for one sentence to give some more meaning to her.

 

I guess throughout the series there are a number of people and plots that just fizzle out and turn out to be not important to the final story and would probably have been better having been left out. Possibly in such a big series this is inevitable as different ideas that in one book seem important suddenly become problematic later on and as such have to be written out and wrapped up in a way that takes away from the main plot (i.e. had the whole series been outlined better from start to finish it would have been easier to drop unimportant or confusing plots). In a way all these myriad plots kind of get you expecting at times something more, despite that something more being unrealistic to achieve. Perhaps BS was a little blunt in wrapping up various plots and RJ would have done a better job. Possibly RJ would have made the final 3 books into a piece of work 10 times as long due to his constantly expanding world building. Yes, he said he would finish it in one book, but you have to recall that this was initially conceived of as a trilogy and ended up being 14 books. I hardly think RJ could be taken seriously, although he probably meant it seriously.

 

I think also that BS said he left the end as much as possible the way RJ wrote it. I understand him wanting to leave the author's conclusion intact, it could be though that the end RJ wrote was never meant as RJ's final draft and RJ would have expanded on it to bring out in finer details various points. Yes, the ending is good and is right, but at the same time it is rough and not as refined as I would have liked. It just cries for stronger resolution of so many things and they are just not given. I personally liked the end of Tolkien's work the Lord of the Rings as he does make the effort to wrap things up. He at least leaves you with a strong glimpse of how each major character goes on to live and he does not rush and end things off anti-climatic  (a la Moghedien). I think Mat and Tuon needed a better ending. Maybe a sentence after their comments about her killing him and he asking her if she likes to dice, with a fond thought from Mat about how playing dice with jack o shadows was never going to be as fun as living with Tuon. Also, the epilogue could have mentioned the births of Rand's babies in the subsequent months, showing that life is going back to normal and bringing out their unusual abilities, which would allow for a conclusion to the pregnancy visions (by them having babies) and setting up a stable future with many interesting things to come. I don't know maybe these long epics just get to me at the end when the endings although great just leave too many things unanswered.

[matt123]

We see an agreement between Egwene and Fortuona whereby Seanchan people will be allowed to set up shop in Tar Valon to encourage people to want to be collared. This is only agreed to if Aes Sedai are allowed to do the same to any women who wear the collar. 

 

When Mog is collared the Sul'dam says "This one is not one of the Aes Sedai, so she's fair game" and sure enough, she gets collared. What happens when the Aes Sedai go visit the Seanchan in Ebou Dar or wherever and ask the damane there if they want to be freed?

 

We know the Mog is a very patient forsaken, and as she was spying on the command tent in the guise of a servant, then she's aware of the bargain and knows she only has to wait a while for freedom, something she is capable of doing (as seen before when she was held prisoner by Nyn).

 

So can we safely assume that Mog will become free in the near future? Will she trigger the war between the Seanchan and the Mainlanders?

 

I doubt it, but it is possible. The training she is about to go through will change her and probably remove any thoughts of being great from her mind. Further her sul'daam may force her to reveal all her secrets and teach them to all the others, which eventually will make her powers no better than anyone else. I also think that without the dark one and the true power available her ability to be powerful will be greatly diminished. She won't be able to find as many dark friends to join her as there is no great lord promising reward, only Mogheidin a member of the forsaken who as a group were defeated is just not that tempting anymore. If anything the finale here with her thinking about how she was going to be so grand with her plans simply ending by having an adam snapped around her neck just shows how weak she really is in this new age.

[matt123]

 

Just my personal opinion here:

 

Nakomi is the renamed child that Avi will bear.

from the future? She met nakomi before knowing about her children

Also Rand seems to meet Nakomi after leaving the cave, which does not tie well into this theory as why would she have been there or known what Rand needed to do.

[matt123]

 

Uh... OK, I get it, different author and probably a ferocious timeline to get the book done... But...

 

What the heck happened at the dam?1) The people were sent there, they died while defending it, then they came back. Explanation please?

 

2) Next, when/how did Rand do the body swap? Did he drag the Forsaken out with him and then swapped, or did he swap before and the people outside saw a forsaken drag the Dragon out with him? It incongruous.

 

What is so different about one of the children Elayne is carrying? My theory was that she was going to be Bridget's new mommy, but now not so much. It was hinted at several times in the past books and now the only implied explanation is out.

 

Don't get me wrong. I have been following this series for 23 years and I am glad that it is finished. I am just sorely disappointed at how many loose ends were ignored and how rushed the entire thing was. Sorry folks, but this series finished weak.

 

1) They were from Hinderstrap, the town where the people killed each other (and anyone in the town after sundown) at night only to find that at dawn they woke back up in their beds. I would REALLY like to know if their town reverted back to normal once the Bore was sealed, I like to hope the pattern fixes itself in that regard.

 

2) The transfer happened in the tent, There is a line (from memory) that said that one body was dying and it was such a shame that it was the dragon and not the forsaken. Moridin was likely destroyed when so much of the TP was channelled through him and Callandor leaving him as an empty vessel. As an empty vessel, I don't think he would have been capable of motor function.

 

Regarding 2 it is just unsatisfactory. Everyone else who channels too much is either burnt out or killed. If Moridin's soul was burnt but his body survived it should have been more explicitly pointed out. I actually think it is possible that Rand healed his body and actually transferred his wounds to Moridin through the link, and at the same time was able to physically change the appearances, through his power to will the world as he wants (lighting the impossible pipe). As a result of the taint of the wounds Moridin now slowly died and Rand slowly got better. Possibly the complete healing from the wounds that Rand transferred to Moridin was not able to be done via one power (there is precedent that the one power cannot heal the wounds from the dark one and from Fain). I think those wounds were enough that even with the removal of the dark one and the killing of fain the body was too past the point of ever being healed by regular one power use. The one clue to this is the saa in Rand is dragon fang shaped and in one eye and Cadsuane has a strange thought how looking at the eyes made her suspect that the dead body was not Rand. Now if the dead body had lots of saa like Moridin this makes sense that Cadsuane saw this and realized the body was not Rand's, which was confirmed when she saw Rand leaving (it was dark so she could not have seen Rand's eye then so most likely it was the corpse's eye she saw). Now the 'proof' to my thought that Rand transferred wounds is that if they had switched souls I don't think the dead body would have had saa, hence Cadsuane's thought would not make sense, by elimination the other choice is he did something impossible and willed the body as he wanted them. Perhaps this is the point with showing the impossible pipe to show that Rand has powers to physically change things according to his will.

[Faluzure]

 

The biggest thing missing from the book was a single sentence.     If Brandon would have added this single sentence, then the book's ending would have been much more satisfying.

 

and the missing sentence from the final chapter is:   "Rand thought that he would visit the Tinkers first to teach them the song"

 

without this missing sentence, we really don't know if he ever teaches the song to any one!

 

 

 

I think part of the problem many of us have with these books is that by having a different author finishing, perhaps some of the subtleties that RJ wanted to bring out and worked so hard for were not brought out well. I think also AMOL should have been expanded perhaps, but it was necessary for BS to wrap things up so several things were not brought out so well.

 

Robert Jordan himself has been quoted saying that the Tinkers have lost and never will find the song. So I don't think you can blame Brandon on this. Unless we get our hands on the notes themselves, we will never be able to make a determination as to who wrote what. Speculation on this is pointless and only leads to grief, my opinion. I am simply thankful that we got the main story completed. There's a thread here about Androl and people's opinion of him, being that he is Brandon's character.

 

I do not think anyone else could have done as good a job, and we must remember that _nobody_ would have done it as RJ did. And TBH, I don't think I would have liked RJ's version so much, if it kept going at the pace it did. Brandon's other works are so well noted for their great pacing and innovative use of magic, and it's immediatly apparent when you read his works that the only way you finish the WOT in 3 books (or at all) is to cut out all the braid tugging and descriptions of the whorles in the marble used to decorate the lintel of a house they happen to be passing by on horseback as they make their way out of a city.

 

Brandon leaves a lot to our imagination, which is GOOD writing. He was given an impossible task and rose to the occasion. Part of me wants to see him do outriggers and spin offs, but another part wants to read more of his original content (God damn but I want more of The Way of Kings, I really hope that doesn't fall by the wayside because of the side-tracking caused by making the Volume of Light).

 

It would be good for all the notes to be scanned (if on paper) or simply handed over to Dragonmount or the 13th repository so we could simply know it all, now that the books are done. Hopefully EVERYTHING ever written is included in the encyclopaedia. Probably not. Seems we won't have another Christopher Tolkien to sort all this out for us. (Ironic how many people criticise C. Tolkien, yet, he's given us things we otherwise wouldn't have at all).

 

What would be good is to license it out like Star Wars to authors who want to make an Expanded Universe, and make it all official, even BS could supply a book or two. We'll have to wait and see what Team Jordan have in mind. There's much opportunity to make money so one hopes that the quality will continue if that's a route they go down.

[XXX]

 

 

Uh... OK, I get it, different author and probably a ferocious timeline to get the book done... But...

 

What the heck happened at the dam?1) The people were sent there, they died while defending it, then they came back. Explanation please?

 

2) Next, when/how did Rand do the body swap? Did he drag the Forsaken out with him and then swapped, or did he swap before and the people outside saw a forsaken drag the Dragon out with him? It incongruous.

 

What is so different about one of the children Elayne is carrying? My theory was that she was going to be Bridget's new mommy, but now not so much. It was hinted at several times in the past books and now the only implied explanation is out.

 

Don't get me wrong. I have been following this series for 23 years and I am glad that it is finished. I am just sorely disappointed at how many loose ends were ignored and how rushed the entire thing was. Sorry folks, but this series finished weak.

 

1) They were from Hinderstrap, the town where the people killed each other (and anyone in the town after sundown) at night only to find that at dawn they woke back up in their beds. I would REALLY like to know if their town reverted back to normal once the Bore was sealed, I like to hope the pattern fixes itself in that regard.

 

2) The transfer happened in the tent, There is a line (from memory) that said that one body was dying and it was such a shame that it was the dragon and not the forsaken. Moridin was likely destroyed when so much of the TP was channelled through him and Callandor leaving him as an empty vessel. As an empty vessel, I don't think he would have been capable of motor function.

 

Regarding 2 it is just unsatisfactory. Everyone else who channels too much is either burnt out or killed. If Moridin's soul was burnt but his body survived it should have been more explicitly pointed out. I actually think it is possible that Rand healed his body and actually transferred his wounds to Moridin through the link, and at the same time was able to physically change the appearances, through his power to will the world as he wants (lighting the impossible pipe). As a result of the taint of the wounds Moridin now slowly died and Rand slowly got better. Possibly the complete healing from the wounds that Rand transferred to Moridin was not able to be done via one power (there is precedent that the one power cannot heal the wounds from the dark one and from Fain). I think those wounds were enough that even with the removal of the dark one and the killing of fain the body was too past the point of ever being healed by regular one power use. The one clue to this is the saa in Rand is dragon fang shaped and in one eye and Cadsuane has a strange thought how looking at the eyes made her suspect that the dead body was not Rand. Now if the dead body had lots of saa like Moridin this makes sense that Cadsuane saw this and realized the body was not Rand's, which was confirmed when she saw Rand leaving (it was dark so she could not have seen Rand's eye then so most likely it was the corpse's eye she saw). Now the 'proof' to my thought that Rand transferred wounds is that if they had switched souls I don't think the dead body would have had saa, hence Cadsuane's thought would not make sense, by elimination the other choice is he did something impossible and willed the body as he wanted them. Perhaps this is the point with showing the impossible pipe to show that Rand has powers to physically change things according to his will.

 

Doubtful that Cads know what a saa is.She only learned what the True Power is very late into the last book.

[wRAR]

2) The transfer happened in the tent, There is a line (from memory) that said that one body was dying and it was such a shame that it was the dragon and not the forsaken. 

Here is that line: "We don’t know why the Lord Dragon would save one of the Forsaken, but it doesn’t matter. We can’t Heal him either. They’re dying. Both of them."

 

[matt123]

 

 

 

Uh... OK, I get it, different author and probably a ferocious timeline to get the book done... But...

 

What the heck happened at the dam?1) The people were sent there, they died while defending it, then they came back. Explanation please?

 

2) Next, when/how did Rand do the body swap? Did he drag the Forsaken out with him and then swapped, or did he swap before and the people outside saw a forsaken drag the Dragon out with him? It incongruous.

 

What is so different about one of the children Elayne is carrying? My theory was that she was going to be Bridget's new mommy, but now not so much. It was hinted at several times in the past books and now the only implied explanation is out.

 

Don't get me wrong. I have been following this series for 23 years and I am glad that it is finished. I am just sorely disappointed at how many loose ends were ignored and how rushed the entire thing was. Sorry folks, but this series finished weak.

 

1) They were from Hinderstrap, the town where the people killed each other (and anyone in the town after sundown) at night only to find that at dawn they woke back up in their beds. I would REALLY like to know if their town reverted back to normal once the Bore was sealed, I like to hope the pattern fixes itself in that regard.

 

2) The transfer happened in the tent, There is a line (from memory) that said that one body was dying and it was such a shame that it was the dragon and not the forsaken. Moridin was likely destroyed when so much of the TP was channelled through him and Callandor leaving him as an empty vessel. As an empty vessel, I don't think he would have been capable of motor function.

 

Regarding 2 it is just unsatisfactory. Everyone else who channels too much is either burnt out or killed. If Moridin's soul was burnt but his body survived it should have been more explicitly pointed out. I actually think it is possible that Rand healed his body and actually transferred his wounds to Moridin through the link, and at the same time was able to physically change the appearances, through his power to will the world as he wants (lighting the impossible pipe). As a result of the taint of the wounds Moridin now slowly died and Rand slowly got better. Possibly the complete healing from the wounds that Rand transferred to Moridin was not able to be done via one power (there is precedent that the one power cannot heal the wounds from the dark one and from Fain). I think those wounds were enough that even with the removal of the dark one and the killing of fain the body was too past the point of ever being healed by regular one power use. The one clue to this is the saa in Rand is dragon fang shaped and in one eye and Cadsuane has a strange thought how looking at the eyes made her suspect that the dead body was not Rand. Now if the dead body had lots of saa like Moridin this makes sense that Cadsuane saw this and realized the body was not Rand's, which was confirmed when she saw Rand leaving (it was dark so she could not have seen Rand's eye then so most likely it was the corpse's eye she saw). Now the 'proof' to my thought that Rand transferred wounds is that if they had switched souls I don't think the dead body would have had saa, hence Cadsuane's thought would not make sense, by elimination the other choice is he did something impossible and willed the body as he wanted them. Perhaps this is the point with showing the impossible pipe to show that Rand has powers to physically change things according to his will.

 

Doubtful that Cads know what a saa is.She only learned what the True Power is very late into the last book.

 

I did think of that and was not sure how she would know. Although if she did see the body and saw the saa she might have quickly surmised it was something alien and suspected it was not Rand's body

[Suttree]

 

What would be good is to license it out like Star Wars to authors who want to make an Expanded Universe, and make it all official, even BS could supply a book or two. We'll have to wait and see what Team Jordan have in mind. There's much opportunity to make money so one hopes that the quality will continue if that's a route they go down.

A good idea to make it like the Star Wars Univere!? *shudder* Team Jordan has already said it won't happen and that they will not risk his legacy. RJ was very much against any type of shared world scenario. It wasn't until the very end that he even allowed AMoL to be finished. They are respecting his wishes in this and that is certainly the correct thing to do.

[Faluzure]

 

 

What would be good is to license it out like Star Wars to authors who want to make an Expanded Universe, and make it all official, even BS could supply a book or two. We'll have to wait and see what Team Jordan have in mind. There's much opportunity to make money so one hopes that the quality will continue if that's a route they go down.

A good idea to make it like the Star Wars Univere!? *shudder* Team Jordan has already said it won't happen and that they will not risk his legacy. RJ was very much against any type of shared world scenario. It wasn't until the very end that he even allowed AMoL to be finished. They are respecting his wishes in this and that is certainly the correct thing to do.

Don't want to open a whole new line of discussion, as if those were his wishes, then so be it (who am I to ask otherwise). But opening out the Star Wars universe is a very good thing for Star Wars fans. There are a few books that make you question the value of this, but by and large, the majority of books have been good. Timothy Zahn is a great example of the good ones.

[mbuehner]

 

2) The transfer happened in the tent, There is a line (from memory) that said that one body was dying and it was such a shame that it was the dragon and not the forsaken. 

Here is that line: "We don’t know why the Lord Dragon would save one of the Forsaken, but it doesn’t matter. We can’t Heal him either. They’re dying. Both of them."

 

 

Right. So although we don't have a definitive answer, we know a few facts.

- Rand went out of his way to bring Moridin's body out. There was really no reason for him to do that other than some sort of knowledge of a body switch.

- Rand's soul was stuffed in Moridins body. We know as a fact of only one way that can happen, transmigration.

- Transmigration, along with a few other practices like mind trapping, can only be performed in the pit of doom.

- The prophecies indicated Rand would die.

 

Conclusion- Rand died. Through some mechanism, perhaps his own initiative, his soul was transmigrated into Moridin's body.

[mbuehner]

We see an agreement between Egwene and Fortuona whereby Seanchan people will be allowed to set up shop in Tar Valon to encourage people to want to be collared. This is only agreed to if Aes Sedai are allowed to do the same to any women who wear the collar. 

 

When Mog is collared the Sul'dam says "This one is not one of the Aes Sedai, so she's fair game" and sure enough, she gets collared. What happens when the Aes Sedai go visit the Seanchan in Ebou Dar or wherever and ask the damane there if they want to be freed?

 

We know the Mog is a very patient forsaken, and as she was spying on the command tent in the guise of a servant, then she's aware of the bargain and knows she only has to wait a while for freedom, something she is capable of doing (as seen before when she was held prisoner by Nyn).

 

So can we safely assume that Mog will become free in the near future? Will she trigger the war between the Seanchan and the Mainlanders?

 

Checked on this- and actually no agreement was ever made aside from Fortuna aiding in the LB. When Egwene brought up giving damane the option (which, btw, Fortuna immediately corrected as 'properly trained damane') they started squabbling and Egwene tried to checkmate her by challenging her to put on an adam, which Fortuna deftly avoided. So there was actually no deal struck. And Fortuna is gonna have a hell of a time with Cadsuane.

[wRAR]

Right. So although we don't have a definitive answer, we know a few facts.

- Rand went out of his way to bring Moridin's body out. There was really no reason for him to do that other than some sort of knowledge of a body switch.

- Rand's soul was stuffed in Moridins body. We know as a fact of only one way that can happen, transmigration.

- Transmigration, along with a few other practices like mind trapping, can only be performed in the pit of doom.

- The prophecies indicated Rand would die.

 

Conclusion- Rand died. Through some mechanism, perhaps his own initiative, his soul was transmigrated into Moridin's body.

Yet both bodies were alive after that.

[BFG]

 

 

2) The transfer happened in the tent, There is a line (from memory) that said that one body was dying and it was such a shame that it was the dragon and not the forsaken. 

Here is that line: "We don’t know why the Lord Dragon would save one of the Forsaken, but it doesn’t matter. We can’t Heal him either. They’re dying. Both of them."

 

 

Right. So although we don't have a definitive answer, we know a few facts.

- Rand went out of his way to bring Moridin's body out. There was really no reason for him to do that other than some sort of knowledge of a body switch.

- Rand's soul was stuffed in Moridins body. We know as a fact of only one way that can happen, transmigration.

- Transmigration, along with a few other practices like mind trapping, can only be performed in the pit of doom.

- The prophecies indicated Rand would die.

 

Conclusion- Rand died. Through some mechanism, perhaps his own initiative, his soul was transmigrated into Moridin's body.

 

Do we know that transmigration can only occur at the Pit of Doom? 

 

Most of the Forsaken were killed elsewhere, or do you mean they're brought back at the Pit of Doom? 

[Sabio]

I am not sure why so many wanted a hint what Dem was about to do, the whole point was the Sharans suddenly showing up wass suppose to be a shock.  I think knowing where e wa at and what he was going to do would of ruined it for me.

[Sabio]

 

 

 

Except for the fact we have a POV saying how she made sure she could imitate other forsaken and no other POV from any other forsaken suggeting the imitate others.  I thin kthat was BS way of answering the who orded the trolloc raid without coming right out and saying it.

 

If it is, then it's because he didn't actually know the answer and wanted to make something up. This scene is not evidence of anything, and I don't think Brandon was trying to make it that way.

 

 

<

blockquote>

>Sort of like how it was never said straight out Grendel kill Asmo but the hint was placed i

n TOM.

 

 

It was said straight out, and the hints in TOM were strong ones, unlike the scene you're talking about which only says that Moghedien, like any of the other Forsaken, knows how to imitate other Forsaken. It's hardly a special skill.

Well if you want to be technical about it we have no idea if the other forsaken can imitate each other since it is never said.

 

We know it's not a difficult weave, and we've never seen anyone having a problem with it, so it doesn't have to be said.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

 

See that is where the issue is, imitating someone is more then using the mask of mirrors weave.  Thats why Messana chose a Aes Sedai with few friends and a loner to imitate. 

 

"and replaced her form with an image of Demandred's.  She always made certian she could imitate the other Chosen.  Demandred would be difficult, as he had changed so much recently, but she paid close attention.  No one touching her would be fooled, she had to becareful." 

 

So its also knowing their mannerisms   It is also why she had to make an excuse for blasting the sharan monk.  "she remembered off-handedly, from her eyes-and-ears that Demandred had shown that old man fondness."  So if it was as simple as just looking like them therre wouuld of been no need to explain blasting him.  It's why they didn't just kill Elaida and look like her or the borderland rulers, since it would of been clear to people who knew them that something wasn't right. Its why the when the forsaken tried to take over a nation it always seemed to be a stranger that no one really knew that came from nowhere that suddenly gained power.

[mbuehner]

Do we know that transmigration can only occur at the Pit of Doom? 

 

Most of the Forsaken were killed elsewhere, or do you mean they're brought back at the Pit of Doom? 

 

Hmm, actually have to check on that but I thought that was canon. I meant the receiving body had to be at the PoD.

 

 

Yet both bodies were alive after that.

 

Good point. Another example of DO magic is Slayer (I'm pretty sure he said Isam and Luc were brought to the PoD) being stuffed into one body or whatever it was. So I think you could make an argument that with the TP you can do a lot of weird things with souls, and perhaps a straight up body switch with two living bodies is just another flavor of transmigration.