Prologue Through End of Chapter 40

[dfchang]

I really hope everyone will leave Hanlon unspoiled. Best to read it.

 

That didn't bring a tear to your eye?  Not even a little dusty around here?

[Terez]

Nope. But I did like it.

[fionwe1987]

 

An interesting question. Could Egwene have accomplished what she did without Gawyn's death providing the fury to drive her?

I dunno if she would have done it, but it would have been less thematically satisfying without her having her own mini version of Rand's epiphany. I really liked how she had a mirror LTT-suicide moment mixed with a sealing, mixed with a Rand epiphany, mixed with a Forsaken battle. You got bright lights to parallel the stream of sunlight, the bringing down of a hill to mirror the raising of as mountain, and a column of crystal to match the column of light. Very layered, very good.

[dfchang]

I liked it too.

 

By way, I'm not as bothered by the lack of explanation for how she figured out the weave.

 

There is precedence for this throughout the series of characters just "figuring it out" or based on instinct.

Nynaeve was just tinkering around and fiddling around and Healed Logain's stilling that way right?

 

Rand does it all the time.

 

Perrin learning how to go back the real world from the Wolf Dream.

 

We know Egwene's Talent is in the Earth and we did have a scene pre-dating this one where she healed the balefire cracks on a much smaller scale.

 

I was fine with the Flame of Tar Valon scene as it played out.

 

As an aside, isn't this basically balefire without all the negative baggage?  What's to prevent you from using this with impunity since it doesn't threaten the fabric of creation but shores it up instead?  Or is it so complicated and requires so much power that only a very, very few can manage it?

[AesSedaiGuy]

I liked it too.

 

By way, I'm not as bothered by the lack of explanation for how she figured out the weave.

 

There is precedence for this throughout the series of characters just "figuring it out" or based on instinct.

Nynaeve was just tinkering around and fiddling around and Healed Logain's stilling that way right?

 

Rand does it all the time.

 

Perrin learning how to go back the real world from the Wolf Dream.

 

We know Egwene's Talent is in the Earth and we did have a scene pre-dating this one where she healed the balefire cracks on a much smaller scale.

Interesting take on this and helps with the Deus ex Machina issue.

[bigdoug1971]

I've not seen any posts about Cadsuane. I know there are those people who do not like her, but she's always been my favorite Aes Sedai. I'm assuming she lives....I really hope she did something awesome too.

[Callandora]

I liked it too.

 

By way, I'm not as bothered by the lack of explanation for how she figured out the weave.

 

There is precedence for this throughout the series of characters just "figuring it out" or based on instinct.

 

Nynaeve was just tinkering around and fiddling around and Healed Logain's stilling that way right?

 

Rand does it all the time.

 

Perrin learning how to go back the real world from the Wolf Dream.

 

We know Egwene's Talent is in the Earth and we did have a scene pre-dating this one where she healed the balefire cracks on a much smaller scale.

 

I was fine with the Flame of Tar Valon scene as it played out.

 

As an aside, isn't this basically balefire without all the negative baggage?  What's to prevent you from using this with impunity since it doesn't threaten the fabric of creation but shores it up instead?  Or is it so complicated and requires so much power that only a very, very few can manage it?

It wasnt so much that she figured out the weave as much as it was a plot device used by BS to push the plot forward while at the same time putting Egwene in a semi hero status

[dfchang]

I've not seen any posts about Cadsuane. I know there are those people who do not like her, but she's always been my favorite Aes Sedai. I'm assuming she lives....I really hope she did something awesome too.

Do you have courage to venture into the dreaded FULL spoiler thread??? Mwahahhaha. ;)

[dfchang]

I'm not sure many of these are plot devices by BS vs RJ. I'd think the Last Battle would be pretty tightly plotted and controlled by Jordan.

[Luckers]

We don't know. All we've been told is that 50% of the plot of tGS, TofM and aMoL was not in the notes, and that the last scene (a thousand words or so) was written by RJ. Even if it was noted, it may have been a simply singular line citing the event, and all the specifics left to Brandon.

[Inkor]

May I ask, for what purpose Egwene sacrifices herself?

[dfchang]

We don't know. All we've been told is that 50% of the plot of tGS, TofM and aMoL was not in the notes, and that the last scene (a thousand words or so) was written by RJ. Even if it was noted, it may have been a simply singular line citing the event, and all the specifics left to Brandon.

 

Wow.  Really?  So half of the last three books was completely made up by Brandon with no guidance or input from Jordan at all???  Not even in outline form?

[dfchang]

May I ask, for what purpose Egwene sacrifices herself?

 

Kills Taim.  Also uses a new weave she invented called Flame of Tar Valon which is the antithesis of Balefire and healed the pattern of the damage done to it by the overuse of Balefire by the dreadlords and Forsaken.

[Terez]

I'm not so sure. Ishamael played that game back in TEOTW.

 

 

Egwene stood there, and Nynaeve, pale and frightened, with flowers in their hair. And another woman, little older than the Wisdom, gray-eyed and beautiful, clothed in a Two Rivers dress, bright blossoms embroidered round the neck.
  

"Mother?" he breathed, and she smiled, a hopeless smile. His mother's smile. "No! My mother is dead, and the other two are safe away from here. I deny you!" Egwene and Nynaeve blurred, became wafting mist, dissipated. Kari al'Thor still stood there, her eyes big with fear.
   

"She, at least," Ba'alzamon said, "is mine to do with as I will."
   

Rand shook his head. "I deny you." He had to force the words out. "She is dead, and safe from you in the Light."

 

 

He tried to make the vision more believable by taking away Egwene and Nynaeve, but it was still a sham, even to the whisper at the very end as Rand used the Power to destroy the Illusion.

 

Also, Rand's thought is a regret, not a promise to himself. Or rather, it was a promise to himself...a promise he could not keep:

 

 

"All things must grow where they are, according to the Pattern," he explained over his shoulder, as if apologizing, "and face the turning of the Wheel, but the Creator will not mind if I give just a little help."
   

Rand led Red around the shoot, careful not to let the bay's hooves crush it. It did not seem right to destroy what the Green Man had done just to avoid an extra step. Egwene smiled at him, one of her secret smiles, and touched his arm. She was so pretty, with her unbound hair full of flowers, that he smiled back at her until she blushed and lowered her eyes. I will protect you, he thought. Whatever else happens, I will see you safe, I swear it.

 

The bit in AMOL was a direct quote of that, along with many other direct quotes from the RJ books scattered throughout.

[fionwe1987]

I'm not so sure. Ishamael played that game back in TEOTW.

But this can hardly be the DO's game. Why have her come, give encouragement to Rand, then let her leave without some good old torment and pain to weaken Rand? Like I said, I don't think Egwene's soul came by because of the DO. But the drift of the conversation does suggest an actual presence, instead of an imaginary one. At least, that is how I interpreted it. 

 

Egwene stood there, and Nynaeve, pale and frightened, with flowers in their hair. And another woman, little older than the Wisdom, gray-eyed and beautiful, clothed in a Two Rivers dress, bright blossoms embroidered round the neck.

  

"Mother?" he breathed, and she smiled, a hopeless smile. His mother's smile. "No! My mother is dead, and the other two are safe away from here. I deny you!" Egwene and Nynaeve blurred, became wafting mist, dissipated. Kari al'Thor still stood there, her eyes big with fear.

   

"She, at least," Ba'alzamon said, "is mine to do with as I will."

   

Rand shook his head. "I deny you." He had to force the words out. "She is dead, and safe from you in the Light."

 

 

He tried to make the vision more believable by taking away Egwene and Nynaeve, but it was still a sham, even to the whisper at the very end as Rand used the Power to destroy the Illusion.

I think the whisper was Rand himself, actually. He was basically comforting himself with the thought that his actions here mattered, and he did right by his "mother". 

Also, Rand's thought is a regret, not a promise to himself. Or rather, it was a promise to himself...a promise he could not keep:

 

 

"All things must grow where they are, according to the Pattern," he explained over his shoulder, as if apologizing, "and face the turning of the Wheel, but the Creator will not mind if I give just a little help."

   

Rand led Red around the shoot, careful not to let the bay's hooves crush it. It did not seem right to destroy what the Green Man had done just to avoid an extra step. Egwene smiled at him, one of her secret smiles, and touched his arm. She was so pretty, with her unbound hair full of flowers, that he smiled back at her until she blushed and lowered her eyes. I will protect you, he thought. Whatever else happens, I will see you safe, I swear it.

 

The bit in AMOL was a direct quote of that, along with many other direct quotes from the RJ books scattered throughout.

I noticed. The words seemed very familiar. Yes, there was regret in it. And I think the use of the same words indicates a certain fatalism in Rand's promise, in that he knows he won't be able to keep it, if it came to that. But it still was a promise, and deciding to accept its impossibility is critical for Rand's final actions.

[Terez]

Okay.

[Zefram]

Who disfigured Galad? Was it just a chaotic major battle with enemy channelers flinging power around or did he fight off a major baddy?

[dfchang]

Who disfigured Galad? Was it just a chaotic major battle with enemy channelers flinging power around or did he fight off a major baddy?

 

Demandred.

[fionwe1987]

By the way... Was anyone else fooled into thinking Egwene would be the one to face Demandred, and that Taim would be finished off by Logain? They were very clever with that. Leaving all sorts of clues that Egwene was worried that facing Demandred was to walk into a trap, then have him kill Gawyn, etc. Meanwhile, Logain obviously wanted to deal with Taim. That was what I was expecting.

[dfchang]

Interesting thought.  Personally after Demandred dispatched Gawyn and Galad, I was expecting Lan to eventually come at him with the foxhead.  That progression seemed more natural to me.

 

It didn't seem possible anyone could challenge Demandred with a sa'angreal controlling a circle of 72 and his knowledge of the One Power from the Age of Legends.  Just didn't seem feasible to me.

[Rand the Plumber]

Without Egwene's sacrifice, reality disintegrates.

 

It's a great death . . . probably the best in the entire series.  Certainly worthy of debate

 

I thought it would happen.  Egwene had been set up as an archetype, and archetypes are much more effective when they're dead.  All future Amyrlins will be raised based on how closely they conform to Egwene.

 

Assuming there are any future Amyrlins; I haven't got that far yet.

[Cherubin]

@88 Let us just say Cadsuane got what she deserved and leave it at that.

[Xformo]

Surprised that I haven't seen this name on the lists of the fallen - the death that surprised me most.  The death scene that clearly says, "this is not the Lord of the Rings."

Bela. 

Turns out she wasn't a Darkfriend after all.

[Talitha]

I'm feeling dense here regarding a passage in chapter 39.

 

I got the impression the people this battle was about, mentioned on pages 811-812, were supposed to be specific characters. Without giving details I think they are:

 

1) Morgase (still fought)

2) Thom (still fought)

3) Moiraine (still fought)

4) Perrin (no mention of fighting)

5) Nynaeve (no mention of fighting)

6) Mat (no mention of fighting)

7) Eqwene (no mention of fighting)

 

But I have a few problems with this list.

 

First, why do the first three "still fight" but the last four don't? Is there any significance to that? When I first read it, without directly trying to draw names to the descriptions, it felt like 4-7 were perhaps dead. However, where I am at in Chpt 39 only Egwene is dead.

 

Second, it came to me as I was guessing who the descriptions referred to that perhaps it was supposed to represent the original Two Rivers crew excluding Rand (Moiraine, Lan, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Thom, Nynaeve). However a) I'm pretty sure that first one is Morgase, b) this list would have an extra woman (three woman in the Two Rivers crew, four women on the list), and c) it doesn't seem to include Lan, unless...

 

Unless Lan was omitted to make his reveal on page 813/814 stronger:

 

8) one who the DO had tried to kill, one who lost his kingdom, one from whom the DO took everything, that man still fights

 

However, this situation seems to amplify what I said before about how 4-7 have no mention of still fighting, in stark contrast to 1-3, 8. And doesn't solve the problem of the extra woman.

 

 

Perhaps, in the end, I am simply reading too much into this passage?

[dschneider333]

Ah, I just found the part referenced in my question, and it is NOT in the first 40 chapters.  I didn't come here to read spoilers, just to discuss and read others' thoughts from the parts I had actually read.  Can people please actually stick to the clearly marked topics without feeling the need to spoil the whole book in every thread?

 

Yeah I've been hoping through the various Prologue throuch chapter X topics as I read the book and having just finished 40 I can see there are a couple things in here that look like they happen after chapter 40.  Looks like Luckers clean up a bunch of other spoilers earlier, but missed a few. 

 

The deaths have been sad, but for some reason Olver's rescue by Noal just made me lose it which was embarassing as I read it during my lunch break at work and had to walk off to a storage room and compose myself.  His though about someone finally comming back for him just made me feel so bad for him.