Prophecy; New and Fulfilled. (Full Spoilers)

[jwillis7]

 

 

 

I think you're reading too much into this. The three, Elayne, Avienda, and Min, get on a boat and hunt down Rand. The rest is about the whole Aiel becoming Guardians.

The boat doesn't have to be literal.

that is so cheap to me. This is a direct Arthurian reference. If it is not going to be literal then it needs to be explained. I just think the story was changed to where this is not in it any more.

 

you cant just answer it doesn't have to be literal without saying how it is figurative.

I did say how it was figurative.

GO back and read my post prior to that.

very sorry going to read now

[jwillis7]

read it and have to disagree.  everything else in that seems very strait foward. 

 

as per the story of Arthur:

 

When the Battle of Camlann is over, King Arthur and Mordred both have killed each other. Knowing this, Kind Arthur asks his knight, Bedivere to throw Excalibur into a lake when a hand reaches up and grabs it. Then he travels onto a magical boat toward the Isle of Avalon. No one knows where he went after that. Some people say that he is resting and recovering from his wounds and that when England needs him the most, he will return.

 

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=king+arthur+death&hl=en&tbo=d&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&rlz=1I7TSNP&biw=1920&bih=955&tbm=isch&tbnid=w52CRLHoDcz8_M:&imgrefurl=http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php%3Fauthor%3Dmacgregor%26book%3Darthur%26story%3Ddeath&docid=QcemQKkEOZd2FM&imgurl=http://www.mainlesson.com/books/macgregor/arthur/zpage102.gif&w=681&h=466&ei=JNH2UJyuBpP08ATYjoDgDw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=381&vpy=131&dur=381&hovh=186&hovw=271&tx=132&ty=141&sig=108302668867053574016&page=1&tbnh=144&tbnw=214&start=0&ndsp=56&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0,i:87

 

and a picture of that scene.

 

I think something like this was planned then changed

[Terez]

Uh, no.

 

Aes Sedai = servants of all

 

Asha'man = guardians

 

We've known these words since book 6

 

Incidentally the same book in which that Foretelling was given, and also the dream shared by Bair and Melaine backing it up. The Foretelling made the identity of the three women clear; the dream made Rand's identity clear; the Foretelling made it clear it was after Rand's death; and both implied that the future was dire. The last bit is probably the cheapest, IMO. And on that point...

 

 

I think you're reading too much into this. The three, Elayne, Avienda, and Min, get on a boat and hunt down Rand. The rest is about the whole Aiel becoming Guardians.

The boat doesn't have to be literal.

that is so cheap to me. This is a direct Arthurian reference. If it is not going to be literal then it needs to be explained.

 

I agree it's pretty cheap. It might not matter much if WoT were a different kind of story, but RJ wrote the books like mystery novels, and he was damn good at it, and this is a glaring exception.

 

I just think the story was changed to where this is not in it any more.

 

I doubt it was changed. As a storyteller, why would you do it? But RJ apparently didn't leave any notes on how this prophecy was fulfilled, and there was nothing in his notes about a boat.

[SinisterDeath]

read it and have to disagree.  everything else in that seems very strait foward. 

 

as per the story of Arthur:

 

When the Battle of Camlann is over, King Arthur and Mordred both have killed each other. Knowing this, Kind Arthur asks his knight, Bedivere to throw Excalibur into a lake when a hand reaches up and grabs it. Then he travels onto a magical boat toward the Isle of Avalon. No one knows where he went after that. Some people say that he is resting and recovering from his wounds and that when England needs him the most, he will return.

 

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=king+arthur+death&hl=en&tbo=d&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&rlz=1I7TSNP&biw=1920&bih=955&tbm=isch&tbnid=w52CRLHoDcz8_M:&imgrefurl=http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php%3Fauthor%3Dmacgregor%26book%3Darthur%26story%3Ddeath&docid=QcemQKkEOZd2FM&imgurl=http://www.mainlesson.com/books/macgregor/arthur/zpage102.gif&w=681&h=466&ei=JNH2UJyuBpP08ATYjoDgDw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=381&vpy=131&dur=381&hovh=186&hovw=271&tx=132&ty=141&sig=108302668867053574016&page=1&tbnh=144&tbnw=214&start=0&ndsp=56&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0,i:87

 

and a picture of that scene.

 

I think something like this was planned then changed

Just because theres Arthurnian Refrences,doesnt mean it has to follow it to a T.

There were just as many refrences to Norse Mythology, and others.

 

I believe, that the the boat was Figurtive.

They were all on the same boat (Nation) (Or in the same boat as in, being in love with a dead man. Or  perhaps pregnant.)

It doesn't say rand is in the boat. Just that the 3 are in the boat.

 

And since the propehy goes...

"Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle"

The first part of that being up in the air as to what the boat is. He who is dead yet lives, has been fullfilled. The great battle is done.  Is fullfilled, and the world not done with battle, is fullfilled. Thusly, I take the boat to be figuritive in order to fullfill it.

 

Prohpecies don't have to be literal in there interpertation.

 

Hell. Heres an other figurtive possibility for you.

At the burning of rands body.

There was a sea of people.

And the Big 3 were apart from the rest, staring back towards rand.

They were in a figurative boat in the figurative sea of people.

 

[jwillis7]

i am not disagreeing that is cannot be figurative, just that it seems like a stretch when everything else in that prophecy were so strait foward. The land divided by the return (seanchan), and the guardians(ash'man) balance the servants(aes sedai)

 

it is fine if some prophecies are figurative.  But this one ispart of one that is so strait foward i dont know how clearer it can be.

[SinisterDeath]

i am not disagreeing that is cannot be figurative, just that it seems like a stretch when everything else in that prophecy were so strait foward. The land divided by the return (seanchan), and the guardians(ash'man) balance the servants(aes sedai)

 

it is fine if some prophecies are figurative.  But this one ispart of one that is so strait foward i dont know how clearer it can be.

Theres also the boat that they were on board with this sham of a funeral.

Cause if you remember your Arthurnian legends.  Arthur wasn't truelly dead, but laid to rest until he was needed again. Those on the boat, (in arthurnian legends) knew he was still alive.

[jwillis7]

yes but in arthur there was an actual boat that floated on water. haha i think we are just spliting hairs now, agree to disagree?

[Agitel]

As someone who's generally find with more ambiguous interpretations, I'm not liking this one about the boat. At least not in the way people are stating it. Nothing people have said is a figurative boat. A boat of nations? What? The boat as a secret? No. That is in no way even close to being clear from anything that was written. It's too much of a jump for me. If it was some extended metaphor about a patched together ship that may sink or not, then I could begin to see it, but "Three woman on a boat . . ."

 

No. Something's missing here. Either it hasn't happened yet, was forgotten about and not included as it should have been, or nobody's picked up the correct metaphor yet.

[kronikD_hedgehog]

i might be wrong but 'he who is dead, yet lives' could be lews therin, meaning the chronology is fine

[kronikD_hedgehog]

 

 

 

If sealing him away to where he has no influence on the world whatsoever doesn't force people to be good, then how can killing him force people to be good? The logic is dumb. But then, that applies to a lot of real world religions too...

I'm assuming that he's symbolic of the "bad" that exists in people as well. Like when discussing the 13x13 process, one of the Ashaman mentions that it essentially "flips" the good and the bad inside of you, turning you into a mirror image of yourself. The Dark One needs to exist (even if locked up where he can't rule), otherwise there would be no "darkness" inside of people, and everyone would be good by default. At least that's how I interpreted it. 

 

And very true regarding your last point. At least the WoT series has the excuse of being a work of fiction, whereas religions claim to be "truth". 

He also represents chaos. Death. Destruction. Creator represents Order, Life, and Creation.

 

Ever hear the tale of the sun and jack frost?

 

 

>So what's your take on "Three on a Boat". I'm not sure that was fulfilled.

lockquote>

This is obvious to me.

The boat is the nations of the land.

Min with the Seanchan (helping toun lead)

Elayne with Andor

Aviendah as a leader of the Aiel.

They are all on a boat that is there nations.

 

 

>"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade"

 So yea as I said. Seems pretty obvious to me.

 

I think you're reading too much into this. The three, Elayne, Avienda, and Min, get on a boat and hunt down Rand. The rest is about the whole Aiel becoming Guardians.

 

seems to me just elayne, aviendha and min. the boat could be metaphorical as in a journey, he who is dead yet lives is lews therin not rand, the battle at merrilor done but last battle not, land devided by seanchan, ashaman balance aes sedai. future teeters on edge of callandor while rand fights DO. chronology works fine. boat can be open to interpretation tho

[Jkx]

 

Does anyone have the exact quote from RJ on the fulfillment of prophecy? The wording could be important. IE- if he said all prophecies must be fulfilled unless the Dark wins, perhaps that only applies to Light prophecies... and the reverse might be true for Dark prophecies, which should then be expected to fail because the Light won. Just a thought.

 

RJ said all prophecies would be fulfilled unless the Wheel was broken. There are two exceptions: Dreams, which are only possibilities, and prophecies that were given after the Pattern began falling apart. Brandon slipped one of those in because RJ apparently didn't: Min's viewing of two dead men, one of which turned out not to be dead after all. Brandon verified that dark prophecies are just as legitimate as Light prophecies.

Yes, all prophecies of the Light have to be fulfilled for the Dragon to prevent the DO from breaking the Wheel. And for the Shadow to win all Dark prophecies need to be fullfilled. Obviously this doesn't mean BOTH prophecies have to be fullfilled since Shadow and Light can't win at the same time. This doesn't contradict Brandon's statement at all. As long as the outcome of the battle is still uncertain the Dark prophecies are just as legit as the Light ones.

[wRAR]

https://twitter.com/BrandSanderson/status/290306967061270528

 

Both are a reference to Beowulf, and I meant the Wyld to mean "predator" or, in more common tongue, he who will kill the dragon.

 

So Demandred is indeed the Broken Wolf?

[mbuehner]

https://twitter.com/BrandSanderson/status/290306967061270528

 

Both are a reference to Beowulf, and I meant the Wyld to mean "predator" or, in more common tongue, he who will kill the dragon.

 

So the Demandred is indeed the Broken Wolf?

 

It makes sense, the Sharans lost their nerve after he fell. You could argue that Moghedien 'consumed' him by taking over his identity.

[Jkx]

Why exactly? Because -wulf resembles the word wolf?

 

I think what BS meant is:

Beowulf (as a slayer of dragons) -> Bao

The Wyld -> The Wild (predator)

 

I don't see anything connecting him with a wolf, other than -wulf resembling the word wolf. While Beowulf himself had nothing to do with wolves, but was a man who killed a dragon (as far as I know, which is little).

[wRAR]

Why exactly? Because -wulf resembles the word wolf?

Translates, not just resembles.

[Julian Cook]

He shall heal the wounds of madness and cutting of hope.^[56]

^{No he never healed madness, just removed the cause with the person who did remove the wounds of madness}

 

He shall bind the nine moons to serve him.^[56] The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south. ^[72]

Apart from the Sharans

 

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow. ^[14]

^{well no, he will save the shadow and keep him in a jail}

[Jkx]

 

Why exactly? Because -wulf resembles the word wolf?

Translates, not just resembles.

Translates? I take it you have linguistic knowledge of Anglo-Saxon then, since there seems to be quite some debate about the etymology of the name Beowulf. Translations ranging from bee-hunter to woodpecker.

 

Other than that, how on earth are people in Randland supposed to make the connection between their Bao and our Beowulf, in order to understand the Broken Wolf prophecy?

[wRAR]

What about the Eg's dream of Rand, 23 stars and a cracked sphere?

[SinisterDeath]

He shall heal the wounds of madness and cutting of hope.^[56]

^{No he never healed madness, just removed the cause with the person who did remove the wounds of madness}

 

He shall bind the nine moons to serve him.^[56] The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south. ^[72]

Apart from the Sharans

 

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow. ^[14]

^{well no, he will save the shadow and keep him in a jail}

1. If you take it literally. then yes you are correct. Clensing of Sadian, however, figuratively, metaphorically, or whatever else, fullfills it. The wounds of madness, isn't maddness its self, but the wounds hte madness did to society. he helped repair those wounds. (Aka, see Logian, and people looking up to him, instead of wanting to spit on him.)

2. Can't argue with that.

3. Sure it did. He locked the DO up again, thusly freeing people from the DO' trying to destroy the world. the shadow of the DO over the world has been lifted, as his blood spilled on the rocks.

 

Its all in how you interpert it!

[Julian Cook]

 

He shall heal the wounds of madness and cutting of hope.^[56]

^{No he never healed madness, just removed the cause with the person who did remove the wounds of madness}

 

He shall bind the nine moons to serve him.^[56] The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south. ^[72]

Apart from the Sharans

 

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow. ^[14]

^{well no, he will save the shadow and keep him in a jail}

1. If you take it literally. then yes you are correct. Clensing of Sadian, however, figuratively, metaphorically, or whatever else, fullfills it. The wounds of madness, isn't maddness its self, but the wounds hte madness did to society. he helped repair those wounds. (Aka, see Logian, and people looking up to him, instead of wanting to spit on him.)

2. Can't argue with that.

3. Sure it did. He locked the DO up again, thusly freeing people from the DO' trying to destroy the world. the shadow of the DO over the world has been lifted, as his blood spilled on the rocks.

 

Its all in how you interpert it!

 

3, well no he didn't thats the point by locking him up there he did not free man from the shadow, as he still has an impact on the world, how else would that world differ from the world that rand made if the shadow did not have some sort of hold

[SinisterDeath]

3, well no he didn't thats the point by locking him up there he did not free man from the shadow, as he still has an impact on the world, how else would that world differ from the world that rand made if the shadow did not have some sort of hold

To literal of an interpertation.

He freed them, in the sense that if he didn't do anything.They'd be shackled and enslaved by the shadow.

They are no longer enslaved by it.

ITs still there. But they can't be enslaved anylonger.

[platinum_bow]

Whew guys! Lots of pages to read through . I dont think the blind beggar vision has been mentioned. Was that supposed to be a future thing? Rand wanders the land with nothing instead of having all the weight in the world to worry about? Why give up his sight tho? Id think he would be done with physical loss ( even feigned loss).

 

Then we have the new vision/omens Min gave Tuon:

 

"A bloody death lily"...."three ships, sailing. An insect in the darkness. Red lights, spread across a field that should be lush and ripe. A man with the teeth of a wolf"

 

Did those for sure come from brandon? I like to think RJ chose to leave us with some to guess at.

 

Edit to say sorry for the format issues. My tablet doesn't believe in using paragraphs apparently

 

Re-edit....nevermind. sheeesh

[Hyronimus]

Hi there

I'm content to consider the three in the boat to be the relationship Rand and his three 'wives' are in. As the saying goes, in the same boat. This is clarified in the books. After some dancing around the issue Avi and Rand define the relationship and Rand accepts rather than beat himself up over it.

 

I like the idea of 'wyld' being the broken wolf, just 'cause it seems kind of need, and we return to the older idea of the midnight towers representing the seanchan.

 

First post, post reading

[avernite]

 

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade"

 

How about... an alternative explanation! Merrilor is the great battle. The world is not done, as Rand is still fighting. The boat is the way to Shayol Ghul, which was a lush island in the age of legends. The three are Mat, Perrin, and Lanfear. Not that they fit the first sentence (though they could have if only the word sword were missing - Perrin fought like a lion?, Mat has the Ashandarei, and Lanfear sort of looks further ahead than most. She sees beyond this battle to her plan to save herself.), but that feels a bit disconnected anyway (the next sentence doesn't say 'these three' but just 'three').

 

Alternatively, someone misheard, and it was really HE who sees beyond. Making the three Rand (Andoran/lion swordsman), Mat (spear/Ashandarei) and Perrin (beyond being T'a'R). He who is dead yet lives is Ishy/Moridin/Elan Morin Tedronai. The land is divided by the Dark One's return. Etcetera, because I don't believe mishearing. ;)

[LeeM.Erickson]

So Bao is a reference to Beowulf?  God, I hope that doesn't mean it's correctly pronounced "Bay-oh."  It's bad enough I can't talk about Fain without thinking "Shazam!"  No need for me to associate Demandred with Charles in Charge.  I read Bao as "bow" (the verb, not what you tie on a Christmas present).