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ok, so this has been bothering me throughout the entire book and it's strange that none mentioned this before: Mat dies from Rahvin's channeling... with the medallion on... there is no place in the series where we have a confirmation that his medallion protects him from saidin...

Suddenly it is treated as a known fact and plays a big role in the book.

This might be the biggest plot hole so far

 

I can't quote it, but I'm fairly certain there is a point that we get confirmation the foxhead protects him from saidin, as well. I'm see to recall Mat thinking it to himself at one point, although I can't quite remember where it happened.

 

As MrBlack said, Mat died indirectly due to Rahvin's channeling (i.e. getting hit by horse dung when Elayne & co threw it at him on the way to Ebou Dar)

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ok, so this has been bothering me throughout the entire book and it's strange that none mentioned this before: Mat dies from Rahvin's channeling... with the medallion on... there is no place in the series where we have a confirmation that his medallion protects him from saidin... Suddenly it is treated as a known fact and plays a big role in the book. This might be the biggest plot hole so far

 

Yes there is.

Halima(Aran'gar) tries to hit him with a weave in Salidar during the dance. There are also 2 quotes from RJ and a confirmation from BS.

 

LoC-44

It should have been nothing, but before he had gone ten paces the foxhead went icy cold on his chest. He spun around, looking furiously for anything at all. What he saw was Halima staring at him in the firelight. Only for an instant before she seized a tall Warder's arm and whirled back into the dance, but he was sure he had seen shock on that beautiful face.

 

 

 

 

Apr 5th, 1996

 

 

Robert Jordan

Mat's Foxy Medallion: As we surmised, it works by blocking direct channeling of both saidin and saidar, and its weakness is that it doesn't protect against indirect effects, like lightning.

 

 

 

 

 

Apr 5th, 1996

 

 

Robert Jordan

Mat's amulet blocks both saidin and saidar. Jordan answered this one straight-out when asked. He pointed out that the amulet only blocks actual weavings of the One Power, not the physical effects that could be caused by a weaving. For example, Elayne was able to use the One Power to hurl a rock at Mat. Rahvin was able to create a bolt of lightning which struck Mat. (Jordan noted that Mat's death by lightning and subsequent undoing of his death when Rand balefired Rahvin, fulfills a prophecy about living, dying, and then living again.)

 

 

 

 

 

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is what he said specifically, but you know, Aes Sedai were both male and female once, and so we don't know yet, and I will have to RAFO that.

Another person from audience

But that was in book six.

Brandon Sanderson

Was it in book six?

Audience

Yeah, that's where Aran'gar gets him with a weave.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, that's right; it did happen. You see, I know a lot of stuff....but I get in trouble if I say too much, because at one of the early signings....no, it wasn't even one of the signings; it was JordanCon. I was talking about....someone asked me a question, and I started answering, talking about, 'Do you remember that scene, where this happened, and this happened, and this happened....' and everyone started staring at me blankly. And I'm like, 'What? No...' and I argued with them that this scene existed. I promised them. No one remembered it! And about a month later, I realized as I was looking through it, 'Oh, it was a deleted scene from book seven.' Which now, in my head, is in book seven! And so I'm very careful not saying things I know, but you're right; that was proven in the books.
Edited by Finnssss

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Chapter 17

p.335 (TOR)

"...but he could just be a beggar or other fool looking for excitement."

Is this proper English? Should that word be "another"?

 

EDIT:

Chapter 17

p.342(TOR)

"I would have the all of the women..."

I 99% sure that that is not proper English.

 

EDIT 2:

Chapter 18

p.345(TOR)

"The thing turned, too slow,..."

too slowly?

Edited by Olver_is_a_Forsaken

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I feel much better now. But then again, at what point does Mat discover who Halima is? None but him would know that she tried to channel at him and I doubt even he would remember it. Last time I remember he was still wondering if it would protect him from saidin or not. The reader may know but there is no reason the characters would have so much confidence in it.

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He doesn't. It was a plot device honestly. A lot of characters know a lot of things which they should not. How does Avi know about TP for example?

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Some random ones:

 

Egwene is unable to shield Taim with Vora's wand. Taim is said to resist the shield by "strength of will". This is an obvious error, both for the shield not locking into place very fast (or at least showing us Taim was leading a circle), and because you can't resist shields by strength of will.

 

Not necessarily.If Egwene plus Vora's wand is not strong enough for a shield on Taim.We know Taim is multitudes stronger than Egwene individually almost upto to Rand/Moridin level.Egwene on her own is not strong enough to put a shield on any of the top channelers and we never know how the san'angreal increases basic strength.(multiplies or adds a factor)

Edited by XXX47

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Some random ones:

 

Egwene is unable to shield Taim with Vora's wand. Taim is said to resist the shield by "strength of will". This is an obvious error, both for the shield not locking into place very fast (or at least showing us Taim was leading a circle), and because you can't resist shields by strength of will.

 

Not necessarily.If Egwene plus Vora's wand is not strong enough for a shield on Taim.We know Taim is multitudes stronger than Egwene individually almost upto to Rand/Moridin level.Egwene on her own is not strong enough to put a shield on any of the top channelers and we never know how the san'angreal increases basic strength.(multiplies or adds a factor)

She's not orders of magnitude weaker. She's just somewhat weaker but still immensely powerful. And sa'angreal increase your strength immensely. By all evidence, she with Vora's wand matches Taim with Sakarnen exactly, later on (Egwene only overdraws to overwhelm Taim). Since Sakarnen is no weak sa'angreal, Vora's wand is almost certainly even more powerful. Either way, unless Vora's wand is a pathetically weak sa'angreal (which we know it is not) Egwene was about a hundred times stronger than Taim in that battle, at the very least. 

 

Remember the amber brooch angreal. Just with that, Elayne says she becomes twice as strong as Nynaeve (who's in the Foresaken range of Power). And Elayne calls that a weak angreal. Vora's wand is the Tower's most powerful. By all evidence, it seems to be in the range of Callandor.

Edited by fionwe1987

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Some random ones:

 

Egwene is unable to shield Taim with Vora's wand. Taim is said to resist the shield by "strength of will". This is an obvious error, both for the shield not locking into place very fast (or at least showing us Taim was leading a circle), and because you can't resist shields by strength of will.

 

Not necessarily.If Egwene plus Vora's wand is not strong enough for a shield on Taim.We know Taim is multitudes stronger than Egwene individually almost upto to Rand/Moridin level.Egwene on her own is not strong enough to put a shield on any of the top channelers and we never know how the san'angreal increases basic strength.(multiplies or adds a factor)

She's not orders of magnitude weaker. She's just somewhat weaker but still immensely powerful. And sa'angreal increase your strength immensely. By all evidence, she with Vora's wand matches Taim with Sakarnen exactly, later on (Egwene only overdraws to overwhelm Taim). Since Sakarnen is no weak sa'angreal, Vora's wand is almost certainly even more powerful. Either way, unless Vora's wand is a pathetically weak sa'angreal (which we know it is not) Egwene was about a hundred times stronger than Taim in that battle, at the very least. 

 

Remember the amber brooch angreal. Just with that, Elayne says she becomes twice as strong as Nynaeve (who's in the Foresaken range of Power). And Elayne calls that a weak angreal. Vora's wand is the Tower's most powerful. By all evidence, it seems to be in the range of Callandor.

 

 

She is significantly weaker than Rand and Taim is nearly as strong as Rand so by logic,she is not only somewhat weaker than Taim,she is significantly weaker.

 

Egwene being a 100 times stronger than Taim is a huge assumption as we do not know how the Sa'angreal increases power,is it a fixed amount to your own power or is it a multiplication of your power.?

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She is significantly weaker than Rand and Taim is nearly as strong as Rand so by logic,she is not only somewhat weaker than Taim,she is significantly weaker.

She's not significantly weaker than Rand.

Egwene being a 100 times stronger than Taim is a huge assumption as we do not know how the Sa'angreal increases power,is it a fixed amount to your own power or is it a multiplication of your power.?

Doesn't matter either way.

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She is significantly weaker than Rand and Taim is nearly as strong as Rand so by logic,she is not only somewhat weaker than Taim,she is significantly weaker.

 

Egwene being a 100 times stronger than Taim is a huge assumption as we do not know how the Sa'angreal increases power,is it a fixed amount to your own power or is it a multiplication of your power.?

It's a fixed amount. We know that from interviews. Egwene being 100 times stronger is a very likely possibility. Well, 100 maybe a little too much. But that shield should have gone in very easily.

 

 

She is significantly weaker than Rand and Taim is nearly as strong as Rand so by logic,she is not only somewhat weaker than Taim,she is significantly weaker.

She's not significantly weaker than Rand.

She is probably significally weaker than Rand under normal circumstances but angreal nulls personal strength in the OP. Let's say Callandor safely gives its user 100 times Rand's strength. Does it matter whether Androl uses it or Logain?

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She is significantly weaker than Rand and Taim is nearly as strong as Rand so by logic,she is not only somewhat weaker than Taim,she is significantly weaker.

She's not significantly weaker than Rand.

>>Egwene being a 100 times stronger than Taim is a huge assumption as we do not know how the Sa'angreal increases power,is it a fixed amount to your own power or is it a multiplication of your power.?

Doesn't matter either way.

 

 

She is significantly weaker than Rand.She is significantly weaker than Ny or Aliva or Lanfear all of whom are no where close to where Rand is.

 

And it does matter how the Sa'angreal increases power to do a comparison.

Edited by XXX47

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She is significantly weaker than Rand and Taim is nearly as strong as Rand so by logic,she is not only somewhat weaker than Taim,she is significantly weaker.

 

Egwene being a 100 times stronger than Taim is a huge assumption as we do not know how the Sa'angreal increases power,is it a fixed amount to your own power or is it a multiplication of your power.?

It's a fixed amount. We know that from interviews. Egwene being 100 times stronger is a very likely possibility. Well, 100 maybe a little too much. But that shield should have gone in very easily.

 

>> 

She is significantly weaker than Rand and Taim is nearly as strong as Rand so by logic,she is not only somewhat weaker than Taim,she is significantly weaker.

She's not significantly weaker than Rand.

She is probably significally weaker than Rand under normal circumstances but angreal nulls personal strength in the OP. Let's say Callandor safely gives its user 100 times Rand's strength. Does it matter whether Androl uses it or Logain?

 

 

That is wht I am curious about.Does an angreal like Callandor give anyone 100 times Rand's strength or it multiples what strength is available to the channeler?

 

Can you point me to an interview where someone in Camp Jordan explains how an angreal works?

Edited by XXX47

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It is a fixed amount. I am 100% certain of it. It's in the interview database. I am not quoting but you should be able to find it easily under angreal tag. So how strong you are makes no difference when you are using angreal, provided of course it does not require certain amount of strength like Choedan Kal.

 

By the way, you should look for RJ interviews. IIRC, there is one Brandon interview that says it's a fixed amount but he adds he's not certain. RJ one is definitive.

Edited by Cem Önal

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Dont forget that after rand's epiphany in VoG BS limited his on screen use of the OP because he had become TOO powerful as he demonstrated at maradon.The comparison between rand and taim was pre VoG so you would expect rand to have increased his abilities over taim especially with his integration of his LTT "other self"

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We've gotten some conflicting information about angreal/sa'angreal. In ToM, Moiraine's angreal is described as nearly strong enough to be a sa'angreal, but Brandon said it would only bring her up to her pre-ToG strength.

 

Meanwhile, Elayne's angreal (which she doesn't call weak, just "not strong") allows her to handle twice as much as Nynaeve.

 

Vora's wand is the strongest sa'angreal the Tower has, but I doubt it's anywhere near as strong as Callandor.

 

From TDR:

 

Egwene had never seen the wand before, but she recognized it from a lecture Anaiya had given the novices. One of the few sa’angreal, and perhaps the most powerful, that the Tower possessed. Sa’angreal had no power of their own, of course—they were merely devices for focusing and magnifying what an Aes Sedai could channel—but with that wand, a strong Aes Sedai might be able to crumple the walls of Tar Valon.

 

"The Sword That Cannot Be Touched is a sa’angreal, girl. Only two more powerful were ever made, and thank the Light, neither of those was ever used. With Callandor in your hands, child, you could level a city at one blow. If you die keeping that out of the Black Ajah’s hands—you, and Egwene, and Elayne, all three—you’ll have done a service to the whole world, and cheap at the price."

[...]

“Is that what you think?” Be’lal said softly. “Truly, you know nothing.” Suddenly there was a sword in his hands, a sword with a blade carved from black fire. “Take it! Take Callandor! Three thousand years, while I lay imprisoned, it has waited there. For you. One of the most powerful sa’angreal we ever made. Take it, and defend yourself, if you can!”

 

It's also interesting that the quote about Vora's wand specifies "a strong Aes Sedai."

Edited by sleepinghour

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Yes i would agree that Vora's wand is not nearly as strong as Callandor. If im remembering correctly the forsaken expended quite a few of their own trying to get their hands on it in Tear.

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Honestly, I'm done believing what Aes Sedai believe to be true. They often turn out to be wrong. I also think Brandon was wrong there, it has happened as well. I agree Vora's sa'angreal is not as strong as Callandor and 100 times the Power is exaggeration but it does not matter. Make it fifty, or twenty. That shield should have worked no matter what.

Edited by Cem Önal

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I'm 99% sure that in the book Moiraine says that with her ivory bracelet angrial she is stronger then she was before. Rand doesn't get stronger after his epiphany, just more skilled. In Maradon he used his fat man angrial.

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This is a direct quote from a BS interview BRANDON SANDERSON

Umm...Both, though, one thing you have to keep in mind, is...Rand, as a result of power level...Robert Jordan was specifically not using him very often because his power had grown so powerful even by the end of Knife of Dreams. I mean, you look at Knife of Dreams—if you go reread the fight in Knife of Dreams he is laying waste to nearly as many Trollocs as he has when he does the battle at the temple—which is not actually called that in the books—that's the one with the Trollocs and things [referencing Rand's big single-handed fight in Towers of Midnight]. And so...yes, some of these things have changed, but he's really powerful now.

Now, the thing about in the White Tower is something different. [brandon smiles]

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I don't understand this quote very well but regardless, it doesn't change the fact that Rand's display of power at Maradon was due to him secretly using an angrial.

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I'm 99% sure that in the book Moiraine says that with her ivory bracelet angrial she is stronger then she was before.

 

She does say that. That's why many found Brandon's comments confusing. They sometimes contradict what the books say or imply.

 

"I don't think so, Moiraine," Thom said, kneeling down, taking her hands. "No, I won't rob you of anything."

"But with it I'll be very strong, stronger in the Power than before I was taken."

 

 

When we were discussing Moiraine’s various angreal, Brandon said he was of the impression that even with it, Moiraine’s was still very close, but just shy of her original strength. I checked that night and Moiraine does say in Towers of Midnight that with it she is 'very strong, stronger than I was before'. I checked with Brandon and he nodded and said that that was a scene that RJ wrote, and it went in almost without any changes. I started to ask whether he was still under the impression that Moiraine was close to her old strength, albeit on the upwards side (after all to an Aes Sedai Moiraine’s old strength was ‘very strong’, and therefore Moiraine might only be marginally stronger, and she might very well phrase it precisely as she did). A fan approached at that moment, and I’m not sure how much of the question Brandon heard, and we never got a chance to raise it again, so it might be worth clarifying.

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She is significantly weaker than Rand and Taim is nearly as strong as Rand so by logic,she is not only somewhat weaker than Taim,she is significantly weaker.

 

Egwene being a 100 times stronger than Taim is a huge assumption as we do not know how the Sa'angreal increases power,is it a fixed amount to your own power or is it a multiplication of your power.?

It's a fixed amount. We know that from interviews. Egwene being 100 times stronger is a very likely possibility. Well, 100 maybe a little too much. But that shield should have gone in very easily.

I think there's no doubt about the shield. I came up with 100 because there's a point in the book where Egwene says she burned with the light of a hundred bonfires. That's hardly conclusive, but it is indicative.

 

As for sa'angreal, I think the same, it takes you to a set strength. However, in this book, Leanne looks at Egwene and says she's channeling more than she had ever seen a woman channel. Which is weird, since she'd seen Siuan use the same sa'angreal. Could just be a mistake though.

 

 

 

She is significantly weaker than Rand and Taim is nearly as strong as Rand so by logic,she is not only somewhat weaker than Taim,she is significantly weaker.

She's not significantly weaker than Rand.

She is probably significally weaker than Rand under normal circumstances but angreal nulls personal strength in the OP. Let's say Callandor safely gives its user 100 times Rand's strength. Does it matter whether Androl uses it or Logain?

It doesn't as far as I know. But Andorl might not be able to use it. Like the Choedan Kal, all sa'angreal may have a lower strength limit for safe usage. And no, Egwene is not significantly weaker than Rand. She's about 70-80% of his strength. She's one step below Foresaken strength, per RJ.

 

She is significantly weaker than Rand.She is significantly weaker than Ny or Aliva or Lanfear all of whom are no where close to where Rand is.

Proof? BEcause Nynaeve wasn't able to shield Elayne, in aCoS. Hardly something that would happen if Elayne were significantly weaker.

And it does matter how the Sa'angreal increases power to do a comparison.

Not really. At the lowest end, Egwene is 50% of Rand's strength. Whether Vora's Wand multiplies that strength by 80-100, or simply boosts you to the strength of 80-100 strong women, it doesn't matter in this case. Egwene would be overwhelmingly stronger than Taim. Even taking into account that she is exhausted and may have been channeling less than her full strength, she would still be well over his strength. And I've never heard of anyone holding back a shield with strength of will, have you?

 

We've gotten some conflicting information about angreal/sa'angreal. In ToM, Moiraine's angreal is described as nearly strong enough to be a sa'angreal, but Brandon said it would only bring her up to her pre-ToG strength.

 

Meanwhile, Elayne's angreal (which she doesn't call weak, just "not strong") allows her to handle twice as much as Nynaeve.

 

Vora's wand is the strongest sa'angreal the Tower has, but I doubt it's anywhere near as strong as Callandor.

 

From TDR:

 

Egwene had never seen the wand before, but she recognized it from a lecture Anaiya had given the novices. One of the few sa’angreal, and perhaps the most powerful, that the Tower possessed. Sa’angreal had no power of their own, of course—they were merely devices for focusing and magnifying what an Aes Sedai could channel—but with that wand, a strong Aes Sedai might be able to crumple the walls of Tar Valon.

 

>

"The Sword That Cannot Be Touched is a sa’angreal, girl. Only two more powerful were ever made, and thank the Light, neither of those was ever used. With Callandor in your hands, child, you could level a city at one blow. If you die keeping that out of the Black Ajah’s hands—you, and Egwene, and Elayne, all three—you’ll have done a service to the whole world, and cheap at the price."

[...]

“Is that what you think?” Be’lal said softly. “Truly, you know nothing.” Suddenly there was a sword in his hands, a sword with a blade carved from black fire. “Take it! Take Callandor! Three thousand years, while I lay imprisoned, it has waited there. For you. One of the most powerful sa’angreal we ever made. Take it, and defend yourself, if you can!”

 

It's also interesting that the quote about Vora's wand specifies "a strong Aes Sedai."

First, you can hardly compare Egwene's statement as a Novice with Siuan's statement. The amount they know at that time is very different. As for the "strong Aes Sedai" comment, I think that indicates that weaker Aes Sedai just can't use it. They'll be burned away, just as women weaker than Siuan will be burned away by using the Choedan Kal.

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First, you can hardly compare Egwene's statement as a Novice with Siuan's statement. The amount they know at that time is very different. As for the "strong Aes Sedai" comment, I think that indicates that weaker Aes Sedai just can't use it. They'll be burned away, just as women weaker than Siuan will be burned away by using the Choedan Kal.

 

Egwene was reporting what Anaiya had said during a lecture, and I see no reason to doubt that Anaiya knew roughly how strong Vora's wand was. She was later part of the circle that Healed Mat and has probably seen it before. The BWB also claims Callandor was strong enough to level a city; there are many other similar statements from the Forsaken and Rand about its strength.

 

The Choedan Kal seem to be the only sa'angreal that only very strong channelers can use. Siuan herself used Vora's wand in TGS to open a gateway. If someone as weak as Siuan can use it, anyone can.

Edited by sleepinghour

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First, you can hardly compare Egwene's statement as a Novice with Siuan's statement. The amount they know at that time is very different. As for the "strong Aes Sedai" comment, I think that indicates that weaker Aes Sedai just can't use it. They'll be burned away, just as women weaker than Siuan will be burned away by using the Choedan Kal.

 

Egwene was reporting what Anaiya had said during a lecture, and I see no reason to doubt that Anaiya knew roughly how strong Vora's wand was. She was later part of the circle that Healed Mat and has probably seen it before. The BWB also claims Callandor was strong enough to level a city; there are many other similar statements from the Forsaken and Rand about its strength.

I'm sorry, but nothing in that sentence indicates that Egwene's assessment of the wand's ability is from Anaiya's lecture. And considering that in this book, Egwene is able to come up with earthquakes that kill hundreds of thousands of trollocs, she can use the same weave to flatten Tar Valon. And she won't even need Callandor to do it.

The Choedan Kal seem to be the only sa'angreal that only very strong channelers can use. Siuan herself used Vora's wand in TGS to open a gateway. If someone as weak as Siuan can use it, anyone can.

I know. Part of me believes that it could just be because Sanderson took over. But the "strong Aes Sedai" thing is also suspect, coming from a Novice, and could be an early-bookism to boot.

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