Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.

[KakitaOCU]

I think the issue is less that these things happened (Evil all stems from the DO, Egwene made a new weave) and more that they happened in ways that ignore earlier parts of the series.

 

As others have pointed out, Egwene has never really just "Ephianied" a weave into existance, she's always thought about it, sorted it out and come to a conclusion of how to do something. The only time I ever remember being confused that she came up with something was Heartstone, and even that was somewhat foreshadowed.

 

Regarding the DO issue, there's one glaring aspect of the series that completely ruins the "All evil stems from the DO." And that's Fain/Shadar Logoth/Mashadar. It's been said again and again that this was a new, or at least different evil, it's separate from the DO, it's counter to the DO on some levels. Now personally, I don't have an issue with the idea that it comes from the DO as well, just indirectly, but that was never really established in the series, Fain was always something wierd and different. So to say evil is impossible without the DO sounds at least a little odd.

 

So yeah, don't have a problem with either action, just find it odd that they gloss over aspects of past books without really clarifying.

[Isabel]

Above was also my question, but I have been thinking about it and come up with below two different answers.

 

Firs answer:

1. When the DO isn't able to touch the pattern he exists primary as the existance of evil / opposite of the light. People can do evil things because they want to. (he doesn't influence them. evil exists, because he exists)

 

2. When the Dark One is able to touch the Pattern people are able to use his power directly to cause evil. They directly use evil power for evil purpose.

 

3. The Shadar Logoth evil was created by humans, who (quoste RJ)believed that they must do whatever was necessary, anything that was necessary to defeat the Shadow. And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction. Their evil is, or was, as great as that of the Dark One, but diametrically opposite. (end quote RJ) I think it was diametricaly opposide because it was created with the best intention and didn't start out as a result of power given by the DO who is able to touch the pattern.

I do think that if the DO didn't exist, that evil couldn't have happened.

 

Second Answer:

 I have been looking at some quotes. I notice that RJ mostly talks about the Taint from the DO and the Taint from Shadar Logoth being opposide. Perhaps that's the key? Jordan was good in giving Aes Sedai answers?

[jeffrey_ashaman]

It makes a lot of sense Isabel. Can you enlighten us as to what transpires with the Aiel, besides the compulsion

[fionwe1987]

Shadar Logoth:

 

Remember that Aginor called Mordeth's power "an old friend, an old enemy"? Then we see Fain here refer to the DO the same way. It seems to me that while his evil is different, and opposite to the DO's, it is not totally separate from the DO. 

[Alleluia_Cone]

I'm grateful to the readers who decided to share some spoilers on this forums. Now I better know what to expect and can avoid hoping for too much and being painfully disappointed. It seems reading through the last book will be an ordeal for me - almost everything I hoped for won't happen and things I feared are in fact happening and playing pivotal roles. I will still read it - to the bitter end

 

I expected some deep and interesting developments connected with Moridin and Lanfear. Apparently, I'm not getting any.

I expected some meaning for the whole Fain storyline. Tough luck.

I expected that people who were proven to be qualified in either One Power or serious fighting to shine in the Last Battle. Whereas apparently it's Egwene who shines the brightest.

From the things people say here, it seems it reads like a huge melee.

 

Get ready for some disappointment. The villains are as one dimensional as ever. That said, as I wrote before, I think we should come to expect that by now given all the prior evidence on the matter. I too was holding out hope that Lanfear, Moridin and Fain would prove much more interesting than initially seemed but I always recognized my desires on this front as somewhat fanciful. My most pointed criticism about this issue is not even the cardboard villainy itself, but that the books do the double act of always hinting at such great possibilities and deeper levels when it comes to the villains, only for all those hints to prove unfounded in the end. There is that and you will also probably be surprised when you find out who took out certain characters; it's all very random and often gives no consideration to pitting characters against their natural adversaries or those they have prior relationships with.  

 

As to Egwene, she doesn't by any means shine brighter than the other characters but her story is the best written (which, in great part, can be attributed to her dying; had she lived, I'm sure her end would have been as ridiculous as Rand's). I don't seem to be bothered as much as others when it comes to her new "I pulled it out of my ass" weave; it's not any siller than when she re-discovered Traveling or Nynaeve started healing every condition known to man. I am little puzzled that readers are complaining about such things now. 

[Isabel]

Can you enlighten us as to what transpires with the Aiel, besides the compulsion

 

Sorry, I try to give away as little spoilers as possible. So I try to discuss things without giving away any new information.

[dfchang]

um, not a demand. But can someone isolate what took place with my beloved Aiel? The remnant of a remnant line? AND how did Rand and Aviendha's bam-chicka-wow-wow moment come about?

Well . . . a lot of the Aiel went to Shayol Ghul to support Rand and that was the most dangerous theater. Near the end I think 1/10 of all the forces there survived. Of the Aiel at Merrilor, we know about 5 to 6 clan chiefs died.

 

So yeah the "remnant of a remnant" prophecy wasn't metaphorical, it was all too real. Then again, that same phrase can be applied to essentially the entire military armies of the light. 2/3 of all the Borderlanders were lost BEFORE they fought at Merrilor field. Basically this was a bloodbath.

 

The only army that was significantly protected was the Seanchan because Mat held them back as his last ditch reserve to be used when things became most dire and they came on the field with the Heroes of the Horn.

 

As for Aviendha and Rand? "You will bed me now."

[jeffrey_ashaman]

Thank you very much DFChang. That is all I wanted. I can now sit back and impatiently await getting my hands on this book.

[fionwe1987]

There is that and you will also probably be surprised when you find out who took out certain characters; it's all very random and often gives no consideration to pitting characters against their natural adversaries or those they have prior relationships with.  

I found myself happy about this, even though I had ideas about who would be whose natural adversary. It strikes me as entirely believable that in a chaotic battle, people are not going to die fighting duels with their opposite numbers from the other side. That would have cheapened the whole thing, I think.

[dfchang]

I was wondering if there some sort of further explanation or resulution regarding Aviendha's disturbing vision of future of Aiel and some deal between Seanchan and White/Black Tower and marath'damane? (Beyond what already been revealed in Prologue and first few chapters). I was so hoping there would be some sort of "ever after" epilogue not just Win, Funeral and The End that it looks like to be here. I really hope even if there are no more WoT sequels at least there will be some sort of very revealing WOT Encyclopedia with some sort of "history" notes about end of 3rd age and beginning of next age toward history of main characters, both towers, main countries and Seanchan with Aiel.

Well we can make up all that stuff as fans right? :)

 

Aviendha vision has probably been averted. Early on, they insisted they be part of the Dragon's Peace which already significantly changes things. Rhuarc dies which is different from her vision where he is alive. Every Wise One at least who walks through those columns sees the same potential future so it is very unlikely that future will now come to pass. Rand essentially creates a United Nations with the Aiel as a peacekeeping force to enforce the will of the "UN."

 

Rand makes a truce to bring the Seanchan over that is reasonable. They keep the nations they've conquered so far but no more expansion or aggression. Within those nations, they can continue to collar damane and they keep all the damane they've captured so far. But no more capturing from that point on in any nation outside their borders.

 

Later Egwene makes some modification when she speaks with Tuon. Tremalking is left out of Seanchan influence. Seanchan representatives can peacefully go to other nations to proselytize the advantages of leashing to women who can channel (kind of like Jehovah's witnesses). Any woman who is convinced can leave to go to Ebou Dar to be collared. In return, women who no longer wish to be collared in Seanchan should be allowed to also leave of their own free will.

 

The conversation between Egwene and Tuon were not sealed in paper but it's a hint of the direction that is going. One hopes that with Mat and Min to influence her, Tuon will begin to slowly change that aspect of Seanchan culture.

[Guest PiotrekS]

The problem with Egwene is that she wasn't set up as Rand's counterpart until late in the series, and therefore when that finally happened it seemed to me to be artificial and badly prepared. Still, after TGS there could be no doubt that she is as important to the author as the DR, which also fits in the general theme of the books. I wonder though if RJ planned for Egwene to play that role from book 1, of if he decided who the "female Dragon" will be, later.

 

This is an unquestionably false assertion.

6m6

 

It's probably a discussion for another thread, where I'll be happy to explain why I think what I think.

 

As to Fain, I agree with the questions posed. There is inconsistency there. Isabel's take is interesting, but it doesn't explain how Fain was able to succesfully fight DO, if his evil was made possible by DO's existence. There is also Brandon's quote that Mordeth "found something".

[jeffrey_ashaman]

Um, wait, one more question... Sorilea, DF???

[dfchang]

Um, wait, one more question... Sorilea, DF???

No.

[fionwe1987]

The conversation between Egwene and Tuon were not sealed in paper but it's a hint of the direction that is going. One hopes that with Mat and Min to influence her, Tuon will begin to slowly change that aspect of Seanchan culture.

We also don't know what Hawkwing told her. And I wonder how she reacted when she found out about the Aes Sedai's actions.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I'm grateful to the readers who decided to share some spoilers on this forums. Now I better know what to expect and can avoid hoping for too much and being painfully disappointed. It seems reading through the last book will be an ordeal for me - almost everything I hoped for won't happen and things I feared are in fact happening and playing pivotal roles. I will still read it - to the bitter end

 

I expected some deep and interesting developments connected with Moridin and Lanfear. Apparently, I'm not getting any.

I expected some meaning for the whole Fain storyline. Tough luck.

I expected that people who were proven to be qualified in either One Power or serious fighting to shine in the Last Battle. Whereas apparently it's Egwene who shines the brightest.

From the things people say here, it seems it reads like a huge melee.

 

Get ready for some disappointment. The villains are as one dimensional as ever. That said, as I wrote before, I think we should come to expect that by now given all the prior evidence on the matter. I too was holding out hope that Lanfear, Moridin and Fain would prove much more interesting than initially seemed but I always recognized my desires on this front as somewhat fanciful. My most pointed criticism about this issue is not even the cardboard villainy itself, but that the books do the double act of always hinting at such great possibilities and deeper levels when it comes to the villains, only for all those hints to prove unfounded in the end. There is that and you will also probably be surprised when you find out who took out certain characters; it's all very random and often gives no consideration to pitting characters against their natural adversaries or those they have prior relationships with.  

 

As to Egwene, she doesn't by any means shine brighter than the other characters but her story is the best written (which, in great part, can be attributed to her dying; had she lived, I'm sure her end would have been as ridiculous as Rand's). I don't seem to be bothered as much as others when it comes to her new "I pulled it out of my ass" weave; it's not any siller than when she re-discovered Traveling or Nynaeve started healing every condition known to man. I am little puzzled that readers are complaining about such things now. 

7

 

Thanks! I agree that my expectations too were fanciful. In WOT, villains have always promised more than they actually delivered.

 

Still, shame about Moridin and Lanfear. Lanfear killed by Perrin? Please...If I learn that he defeated her in TAR, I'll scream.

[KakitaOCU]

So I've had two questions I feel compelled to ask, obviously no worries if no one choose to.

 

I've seen Min mentioned with Tuon several times, does she just tag along with Mat or is she actually joining Seanchan society?

 

Also wanted to ask what happens with Shadar Haran, always seemed wierd to have an Avatar when the DO was pretty much working through Morridin the whole time.

 

Edit to respond to above: I'm pretty sure Perrin has to have defeated Lanfear in TAR. He wouldn't have anywhere close to the power or ability to face her in the real world. It's not like he has a Foxhead or such to keep her from just burning him to a crisp.

[fionwe1987]

 

 

I'm grateful to the readers who decided to share some spoilers on this forums. Now I better know what to expect and can avoid hoping for too much and being painfully disappointed. It seems reading through the last book will be an ordeal for me - almost everything I hoped for won't happen and things I feared are in fact happening and playing pivotal roles. I will still read it - to the bitter end

 

I expected some deep and interesting developments connected with Moridin and Lanfear. Apparently, I'm not getting any.

I expected some meaning for the whole Fain storyline. Tough luck.

I expected that people who were proven to be qualified in either One Power or serious fighting to shine in the Last Battle. Whereas apparently it's Egwene who shines the brightest.

From the things people say here, it seems it reads like a huge melee.

 

Get ready for some disappointment. The villains are as one dimensional as ever. That said, as I wrote before, I think we should come to expect that by now given all the prior evidence on the matter. I too was holding out hope that Lanfear, Moridin and Fain would prove much more interesting than initially seemed but I always recognized my desires on this front as somewhat fanciful. My most pointed criticism about this issue is not even the cardboard villainy itself, but that the books do the double act of always hinting at such great possibilities and deeper levels when it comes to the villains, only for all those hints to prove unfounded in the end. There is that and you will also probably be surprised when you find out who took out certain characters; it's all very random and often gives no consideration to pitting characters against their natural adversaries or those they have prior relationships with.  

 

As to Egwene, she doesn't by any means shine brighter than the other characters but her story is the best written (which, in great part, can be attributed to her dying; had she lived, I'm sure her end would have been as ridiculous as Rand's). I don't seem to be bothered as much as others when it comes to her new "I pulled it out of my ass" weave; it's not any siller than when she re-discovered Traveling or Nynaeve started healing every condition known to man. I am little puzzled that readers are complaining about such things now. 

 

7

 

Thanks! I agree that my expectations too were fanciful. In WOT, villains have always promised more than they actually delivered.

 

Still, shame about Moridin and Lanfear. Lanfear killed by Perrin? Please...If I learn that he defeated her in TAR, I'll scream.

WoT was never about the Foresaken. We do get some little depth to Demandred. And Moridin is not spectacular, but was he ever meant to be? Wasn't it always his philosophical reasons for joining the DO that made him interesting?

 

And Graendal does amazing stuff in this book. Her actions result in as much damage to the Light as Demandred's, or close enough. For once, there's actual coordination between the Foresaken, too.

 

Lanfear has an interesting strategy, but her failure could be seen coming from miles away.

[KakitaOCU]

Fionwe makes very good points about Moridin.

 

Looking back through all the notes, he was never impressive save for strength in the power. Wasn't he something of a nobody philosopher in the AoL?

 

I always took him as being the leader primarily because he knew what the DO was really after and agreed. Focus on Selfishness all you want, having at least ONE person on your side know your real plan and agree with you and want to see it fullfilled is worth a lot. You could almost call him the DO's Warder in a sense, a person deliberately playing second fiddle focused on seeing his master's will done and taking actions he knows the DO would take if the DO wasn't busy with other things.

[fionwe1987]

So I've had two questions I feel compelled to ask, obviously no worries if no one choose to.

 

I've seen Min mentioned with Tuon several times, does she just tag along with Mat or is she actually joining Seanchan society?

I don't know if she's joining. Let's just say she'll be a very important part of it.

 

 

 

Also wanted to ask what happens with Shadar Haran, always seemed wierd to have an Avatar when the DO was pretty much working through Morridin the whole time.

He's a nonentity. He's no longer needed with the increased freedom the DO has, so he's discarded.

 

 

Edit to respond to above: I'm pretty sure Perrin has to have defeated Lanfear in TAR. He wouldn't have anywhere close to the power or ability to face her in the real world. It's not like he has a Foxhead or such to keep her from just burning him to a crisp.

Its TAR, and not TAR.

[fionwe1987]

Fionwe makes very good points about Moridin. Looking back through all the notes, he was never impressive save for strength in the power. Wasn't he something of a nobody philosopher in the AoL? I always took him as being the leader primarily because he knew what the DO was really after and agreed. Focus on Selfishness all you want, having at least ONE person on your side know your real plan and agree with you and want to see it fullfilled is worth a lot. You could almost call him the DO's Warder in a sense, a person deliberately playing second fiddle focused on seeing his master's will done and taking actions he knows the DO would take if the DO wasn't busy with other things.

He was a famous philosopher, and Lews Therin's friend. And he seems to have been a skilled channeler too. But what I meant was... did anyone seriously expect to hings on some impressive OP duel between him and Rand? We got that already in tDR. This is a fight of a different kind, as Verin said. The Foresaken are like obstacles the DO placed to either turn Rand, or at least preventing him from coming to Shayol Ghul for the LB. They're not the great enemy. In the end, even the Dark One isn't.

[Zefram]

Somebody mentioned that Great Generals are "corrupted" from DO plan, are they "seduced" or compulsed? Does it mean that my favorite non-channeler secondary characters - like Bashere, Bryne, and Iterude are killed or become DF? This is so sad (this will make me cry even as heroic death of Egwene or any other main characters won't!!!)

 

Unlike main characters or channeler character those guys were always written extremely well - as honorable, great generals (unfortunately always always to be overshadowed and awed by our 3 ta'veren to show how "awesome" they are)

[Lord Melkor]

 

I was wondering if there some sort of further explanation or resulution regarding Aviendha's disturbing vision of future of Aiel and some deal between Seanchan and White/Black Tower and marath'damane? (Beyond what already been revealed in Prologue and first few chapters). I was so hoping there would be some sort of "ever after" epilogue not just Win, Funeral and The End that it looks like to be here. I really hope even if there are no more WoT sequels at least there will be some sort of very revealing WOT Encyclopedia with some sort of "history" notes about end of 3rd age and beginning of next age toward history of main characters, both towers, main countries and Seanchan with Aiel.

Well we can make up all that stuff as fans right? :)

 

Aviendha vision has probably been averted. Early on, they insisted they be part of the Dragon's Peace which already significantly changes things. Rhuarc dies which is different from her vision where he is alive. Every Wise One at least who walks through those columns sees the same potential future so it is very unlikely that future will now come to pass. Rand essentially creates a United Nations with the Aiel as a peacekeeping force to enforce the will of the "UN."

 

Rand makes a truce to bring the Seanchan over that is reasonable. They keep the nations they've conquered so far but no more expansion or aggression. Within those nations, they can continue to collar damane and they keep all the damane they've captured so far. But no more capturing from that point on in any nation outside their borders.

 

Later Egwene makes some modification when she speaks with Tuon. Tremalking is left out of Seanchan influence. Seanchan representatives can peacefully go to other nations to proselytize the advantages of leashing to women who can channel (kind of like Jehovah's witnesses). Any woman who is convinced can leave to go to Ebou Dar to be collared. In return, women who no longer wish to be collared in Seanchan should be allowed to also leave of their own free will.

 

The conversation between Egwene and Tuon were not sealed in paper but it's a hint of the direction that is going. One hopes that with Mat and Min to influence her, Tuon will begin to slowly change that aspect of Seanchan culture.

 

Oh, so we learn a little what the Randland may look like after the Last Battle?

 

So, are Ashaman and channeling men included in the Dragon Peace? Is Logain recognized as their leader?

[fionwe1987]

Somebody mentioned that Great Generals are "corrupted" from DO plan, are they "seduced" or compulsed? Does it mean that my favorite non-channeler secondary characters - like Bashere, Bryne, and Iterude are killed or become DF? This is so sad (this will make me cry even as heroic death of Egwene or any other main characters won't!!!) Unlike main characters or channeler character those guys were always written extremely well - as honorable, great generals (unfortunately always always to be overshadowed and awed by our 3 ta'veren to show how "awesome" they are)

Its compulsion, unfortunately. Very subtle, very effective compulsion, placed via their Dreams. It is detected too late in almost all theaters, causing much death and nearly collapsing the Light's efforts.

[fionwe1987]

Oh, so we learn a little what the Randland may look like after the Last Battle?

A lot. Not in direct detail. Its all hints and signs. Like Cadsuane's being named Amyrlin is a strong hint the Oaths are going away. Hawkwing's offscreen meeting with Tuon likely hints at a further mellowing of her stance. Pevara and Androl, as well as Gabrelle and Logain, hint at things to come for the two Towers. Things like that, mostly.

So, are Ashaman and channeling men included in Rand's in the Dragon Peace? Is Logain recognized as their leader?

I don't think they are. But I also don't think they needed to be. Logain is recognized their leader, and is shown to be on the path to making the Asha'man something more than mere weapons. We're given a clue that attitudes towards male channelers will change drastically after their acts in the final battle. Likely towards Aes Sedai too, though this is less of a change, given their previous status. 

 

Again, Cadsuane's speculation about having Aviendha in the Tower, and the reason Sitters give for choosing her as Amyrlin hint at a closeness between these two groups. Egwene sticking up for the Sea Folk and freeing Tremlaking from the Seanchan is also another hint of future good relations between the female channelers.

 

And Egwene more or less made it certain that any damane who wishes to be free will be allowed to come to the Tower. And in exchange, the Seanchan can come to Tar Valon or any other city, and preach the greatness of the a'dam. A ludicrous deal that only went through because Tuon actually believes she's right about the a'dam being something channelers would want. Right there, the doom of the damane system was guaranteed.

[Zefram]

Does that include everyone - like Mat, Perrin (I heard on this post), Rhuarc and Debraine too? Its like the Waygates - so obvious that they needed to be sealed ASAP and still left open to lose Caemlin to Trollocs, they really should have protected their non-channeler generals dreams!

 

Any of them survive (other than Mat and Perrin)?