Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.

[sfinbar]

@dfchang: weak, very weak, but thanks.

 

Also, as a long time lurker and WOT reader I really appreciate the work megafans have done over the years on dragonmount and elsewhere.

[sfinbar]

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[dfchang]

Okay, unrelated topic.

 

Would it have killed the forces of light to form a circle of 72 like Demandred, have Androl control it and then just make HUGE ASS gateway that leads either to outer space or the inside of Dragonmount to wipe away like EVERYBODY?

 

I mean for God's sake, Androl did that earlier to get rid of an entire Trolloc army in Cairhien with wiped out channelers, why not do it again?    His Talent is unique with incredibly deadly implications.

 

Or why  not just have him duel with Demandred and open a gateway to wrap balefire around and hit Demandred in the back?

 

Come to think of it why not do all of that and then also have the Dragons fire through gateways at Demandred as well like they did to get Moghedien?

[MattTaz]

 

All awesome stuff. Fain?

 

Sucks . . .  He appears in like 3 or 4 scenes and is promptly killed by Mat who is immune to the effects of Mashadar because he had already survived it (sort of like chicken pox I guess . . . )

 

I really thought he would have a greater role at the end but he doesn't.  Just the biggest f'ing red herring in the history of fantasy.

geezus, that is disapointing, i used to think he 'balanced' something, like the taint did shadar logoth - Mat sounds like he was pretty cool in this book.

Does Tuon end up showing him some respect? By that I mean not hitting him and saying she dislikes his superstitions?

[dfchang]

Oh yeah.  Tuon shows Mat lots of things. ;)

[MattTaz]

Oh yeah.  Tuon shows Mat lots of things. ;)

nice :)

[Lord Melkor]

Okay, unrelated topic.

 

Would it have killed the forces of light to form a circle of 72 like Demandred,

 

Wow, with whom Demandred formed that Circle? I quess that such kind of power can destroy entire armies quite easily.

[dfchang]

Demandred is the lord of Shara, an entire country with hundreds of channelers. It's easy bro . . .

[Lord Melkor]

Demandred is the lord of Shara, an entire country with hundreds of channelers. It's easy bro . . .

 

Hmm, and yet they have no problem with fighting on the same side as Trollocs, I wonder? 

[Heikoy]

My only hope for the book is that Nynaeve does something awesome. By far my favorite character and I feel that she's been underdeveloped in the last few novels. She's always been an awesome personality that I believe wasn't fully explored. 

[dfchang]

 

Demandred is the lord of Shara, an entire country with hundreds of channelers. It's easy bro . . .

 

Hmm, and yet they have no problem with fighting on the same side as Trollocs, I wonder? 

 

Another sticking point that is only very casually and circumferentially explained. 

 

Apparently the Sharans have their own prophecies surrounding Demandred.

 

Also the country may very well just be intrinsically evil with the leadership already committed to serving the Sharans.

 

The rank and file hate the Shadowspawn but that society isn't very big on individual thought and freedom of expression.

 

Think Iran and North Korea.  The PEOPLE might not want to go to war with large hulking animal headed things but no one is going to pipe up about it.

 

At least that's how I read it . . .

[nirthfurzahad_15279]

So, aMoL sounds like: pretty good battle scene, some over-philosophical bullshit targeted at young adult about good and evil and bunch of lose ends getting unsatisfying resolution :)?

[Ishy_Reborn]

Well

 

Bittersweet, glad I got an ending but not particularly thrilled with the product.

 

I thought there was too much going on for one book. perhaps one book made up of just the last battle and filled out a bit more would have made it less jarring. That followed by another book or at least more than a couple pages tying up loose ends with characters we have followed for 20 years would have been nice.

 

Fain?! Really like only 4pages ... He was seminal to the books in the beginning.

 

The fight btwn moridin and rand, disappointing

 

3 books of build up for the black tower conflict to have such an anticlimactic resolution.

 

The fight btwn rand and the do being resolved by insinuating removing the dark one removes mans freedom of choice seems silly to me.

 

I did like Perrin's killing of lanfear though

 

Oh well

[Lord Melkor]

Thanks for the answers, Dfchang!

 

One more question - do Ashaman reach some kind of understanding with White Tower as a whole, regarding their relations (also after Last Battle ends)?

[dfchang]

Rand seals the Dark One and then we are in the epilogue.

 

So understand that there are not going to be a lot of direct exposition on post-Last Battle events.

 

The LAST PAGE shows the hundreds of thousands of corpses that still have to be burnt, buried, etc.

 

You are meant to INFER that there will indeed be accommodation between White and Black Tower.  Between Randland and Seanchan.

 

Between the nations of the world etc.

 

You can infer that Perrin and Faile have kids and rule Saldeaa.  That Elayne rebuilds Andor and rules Cairhien.  That Moiraine and Thom retire to live out their lives in peace and love.

 

That Mat returns with Tuon perhaps with Min as Truthspeaker to Seanchan and rescue their country.  That Mat and Min together will soften Tuon and show another kinder way of doing things.

 

That Lan and Nynaeve restore Malkier and rebuild the 7 Towers.

 

You have to ASSUME all that because you sure as hell ain't going to READ any of it in that 17 page Epilogue . . .

 

 

Oh and I am 100% with Ishy_Reborn.   

[AesSedaiGuy]

deus ex machina

No, oh god, no! :(

[AesSedaiGuy]

 

An interesting one: 

 

Rand at the end can't channel saidin or the True Power (obviously) to light his pipe.

 

So he THINKS his pipe on fire and it happens.   Obviously I'm missing something but how the heck is he able to do that?  This is in the real world by the way as far as we can tell.

 

I thought this was fairly obvious. The real world is as open to manipulation as TAR. Just not as easily. We saw Rand and the DO weave threads of the Pattern into different possible realities, and they were called Dreams. While my theory of Reality being a fold of TAR has now undergone quite a few changes, the basic principles hold. That's why, closest to the Bore, in the end, Reality and TAR merge, allowing Lanfear to contemplate her plan.

 

Rand now knows a lot more about the fabric of Reality. He manipulated it, and created a tiny flame.

I LOVE this. This is where I thought/hoped the Books/Rand were heading! This kind of esoteric understanding of reality will hopefully make everything else worthwhile ... Kind of like the DM Epiphany at the end of TGS.

[AesSedaiGuy]

 

I also remain unconvinced with the philosophical argument behind not destroying the Dark One and just sealing him up again.

 

There are some serious logical flaws in both of Rand's visions, one without Light and one without Dark.

 

I'm not sure that a world WITHOUT the Dark One inherently means everyone is just a "puppet" and the world shown by the Dark One is not completely without some order, rules, structure, etc.

 

Wasn't Eden originally without Evil?  Isn't the Heaven of the Christian ethos ultimately going to be without Satan?   After you choose to believe Jesus Christ and/or God after Revelations and enter Heaven, can you change your mind and go to Hell?  Can you steal, murder, or commit adultery in heaven?   Doesn't "choice" get taken away from you there eventually? 

 

Again, the argument for keeping the Dark One around simply as a balance for the Light so mankind can "choose" between the two is not a particularly convincing one for me personally.   I would have gone for it in the end and taken my chances with a world changed into paradise without evil.   People seemed happy enough in that vision . . . 

 

I THINK the book argues that a person without the capacity for good is not much different than a person without the capacity for evil and that strikes me as a bit simplistic.

 

I think you're expecting this to be a match for Christian mythology. WoT has never been that. There's a strong Manichean component, strong influences from Zhoroastrian traditions, and Hindu and Jain myth. And we see that here. In the end, Rand realizes the DO was never the enemy. He's a force, a one sided thing, as the Creator is. The threads in the Pattern are the ones that have the choice, and Evil got greater access to the world due to man's actions, and was able to push itself into people's lives because of the choices of the many who turn to the Shadow.

 

The dream with no DO was correct. Remove everything that is evil forcibly from the world, and you're not left with "good". You're left with vapidity. What is great about not doing evil when you can't do it? Destroying the DO is a destruction of choice. A closing of a path. Then how is anyone good, anymore? Same's the case with forcibly turning people to the Shadow. There is no choice, once that is done. How is that alright in the other direction?

 

Terez: Remember that the DO's prison is imperfect. He never has zero access to the world. As is the case with the Creator, I suspect. The world is infinite possibility, or Tel'aran'rhiod, at its most basic level. The other two constants are the Creator and the DO. In between are the threads of Reality/the Pattern. They exist in a Reality that is neither for good nor for evil. They exist in a world of balance. I suspect if the Creator attempts to enter the world fully, the Pattern would come up with a Dark Champion to reject him too. 

 

There's also this:

 

That isn't the way it works, she thought. Two sides to every coin. Two halves of the Power. Hot and cold, light and dark, woman and man.

 

This quote captures the central metaphysical aspect of WoT. Its all about balance. If something exists, so must its opposite. What is choice, otherwise?

Well said, sir. Very well said! If this is the case, AMOL is looking to be incredibly satisfying on a metaphoric level.

[shandrick]

My favorite part of large works of fiction has always been the scenes after the "final battle." They give a resolution to the story, with a hint of where things might end up if the story kept going. Jordan used to say that even though all major story lines would be resolved, some minor story lines would not be. That's fine, and I believe it's great to leave readers wanting more and imagining what would happen in the next book if it were published. Major story lines that have been building up since the beginning do need to be resolved because you don't want to end up wasting readers' time.

[AesSedaiGuy]

Oh and I am 100% with Ishy_Reborn.   

It is what it is, I guess. I have a feeling I will as well. The wheel weaves and all, I guess ... But what stands out or me as negative are 3 things:

1- Deus ex Machina

2-Red Herring Fain

3-Lack of any *real* epilogue.

 

What looks interesting/promising:

1-Demandred

2-Mat

3-Philosophical resolution(s)

 

Can't wait 'til Jan 8!

[MattTaz]

are the people who are 13x13 turned to the shadow stuck like that, or are they healed in any way?

and is the black tower 'rent by blood and fire' or do the factions just go their seperate ways?

[dfchang]

You can argue that the Black Tower has already been rent by blood and fire before this book.

 

The people who are 13x13'ed are not cured.  However that is not to say that a cure is impossible.  It has simply not been done by the end of this book.

[MattTaz]

So Demandred was in Shara which means:

Graendal, who had been there before, wasnt really that smart for not knowing where he was, and

Sammael who thought Demandred was up to something to the south was way off the mark.

I'm glad Roedran was just himself though

[AesSedaiGuy]

Do we get some Shara story/depictions as part of the build-up/story?

[dfchang]

Nothing newer than what we have from earlier books.   You do get to learn a bit about their culture in this book however.  It's pretty tangential though.