How does Verin know about those things?

[Orderofolde]

good question. The most difficult one to understand is how she knew about the plans of the attack on Caemlyn so far in advance. By various timelines I've seen, Verin spent at least 28 days (some timelines make it much longer) in Trustair waiting for Mat. She was stuck there so she must have found out about those plans before she left Rand after the attack on Algarin's manor. That's 100 days before the actual attack on Caemlyn started according to team Jordan. Verin seems to have been off about the timing of the Caemlyn attack by about a month but that still means she knew about it a very long time in advance. The other things are less problematic as there was at least 10 days from her meeting with Mat to her death and who knows where she's been in that time.

Don't forget that she was probably pretty high-ranking and that a Forsaken probably visited her or at least kept tabs on her. Verin was also well informed as she was a Brown and probably had her own personal network of eyes and ears to rival that of the blue Ajah.

[TootThatHorn]

I honestly question how high up Verin could have been in the black ajah. I would assume that to gain rank you would have to be open to doing some pretty nasty things and not do things like back Perrin up at the Two Rivers, or help Mat out either. Another black would have gladly killed either one to move up in rank. I really think Verin was quite a low ranking BA and simply ferreted out some decent tidbits.

[Viperswhip]

Well, we mentioned that. The orders regarding the boys were always very fluid and often confusing as shit. Rand they definitely wanted alive, and as for the other two, well, unless Verin got specific instructions to take them out, why would she take the initiative. Look where initiative got Jarna.

 

Sheriam was very surprised that Verin was a traitor, that's the only indicator we have as to her status, we never get any other information. Sheriam was surprised, that to me means, Verin was...well, mean, but probably mostly only to darkfriends. We have no real information.

 

Oh, and Slayer was not exactly following the plan, he was supposed to kill Fain, that was his purpose there, Ishmael didn't give two shits about the Two Rivers after Rand left.

[Sharaman]

@Sharaman actually, some of these are debatable. namely, we don't precisely know when Verin died ref VoG. It's commonly assumed that VoG happened 1-2 days after the Tower unification but it can actually be a few days more. It can be as much as 7-8 days in principle. We also don't know exactly when Mat left for the TG. People often forget that time can flow with different speed in the Finn world. That's what happened to Mat on his second trip there in TSR. He only spent about an hour there by his own time but it was 6 days in Rhuidean. The assumption that Perrin arrived at FOM just one day before the meeting doesn't have to be true either.

 

We know when Mat left for ToG -- Perrin sees a vision of Rand with the Borderlanders as Mat leaves so it's Far Madding coincident. We also have Mat's vision after he exited ToG, with ref to Rand & Min in a tent.

Assuming Mat's timeline hasn't pushed far ahead of everybody in the entire narrative, this must be either in Far Madding or at FoM. Hence, he didn't spend more than 1 night and the following day till evening in ToG.

Perrin leaves for FoM after he sees the vision of Rand at Far Madding. So we know pretty accurately when he gets there assuming Rand keeps his schedule of going to FoM the day after he meets the Borderlanders.

We also know Mat spent weeks in Camelyn before meeting Elayne, then he started the dragon making and then he killed the gholam before Perrin arrives and they hook up.

We know when Perrin arrives with reference to VoG.

[bobarose]

Verin may have had a talent that was never revealed to us.she was one of my favorites.was sad to see her as a black.sigh!

[herid]

@Sharaman actually, some of these are debatable. namely, we don't precisely know when Verin died ref VoG. It's commonly assumed that VoG happened 1-2 days after the Tower unification but it can actually be a few days more. It can be as much as 7-8 days in principle. We also don't know exactly when Mat left for the TG. People often forget that time can flow with different speed in the Finn world. That's what happened to Mat on his second trip there in TSR. He only spent about an hour there by his own time but it was 6 days in Rhuidean. The assumption that Perrin arrived at FOM just one day before the meeting doesn't have to be true either.

 

We know when Mat left for ToG -- Perrin sees a vision of Rand with the Borderlanders as Mat leaves so it's Far Madding coincident. We also have Mat's vision after he exited ToG, with ref to Rand & Min in a tent.

Assuming Mat's timeline hasn't pushed far ahead of everybody in the entire narrative, this must be either in Far Madding or at FoM. Hence, he didn't spend more than 1 night and the following day till evening in ToG.

Perrin leaves for FoM after he sees the vision of Rand at Far Madding. So we know pretty accurately when he gets there assuming Rand keeps his schedule of going to FoM the day after he meets the Borderlanders.

The problem is that if Mat's trip to the TG takes place just one day before FOM then it's completely impossible to make him waiting to do so to be any less than 38 days as he spent quite some time in Caemlyn before VoG (at the very least 9 days by my count, and likely longer) and the FOM meeting is 28 days after Rand showed up at the Tower which at a minimum 1 day after VoG . This contradicts his firm intentions to go to the TG as soon as his oath to Verin allows, i.e. after 30 days. BS confirmed that he did just that in an interview.

So I'm thinking of possible alternate explanations, given that BS never acknowledged that there are any errors in Mat's timeline.

 

I know about the visions you mention but they might be explained away with some effort. There could be something like the "prophetic rumors" about the Tower uniting and the Seanchan attacking the White Tower that are mentioned in ToM, ch 8.

If we allow for such things then the vision that Perrin has of Rand and Borderlanders at the time when Mat leaves for the TG could be a red herring and could show some other meeting and not the one at Far Madding. Rand has been off screen a lot in ToM and could have visited the Borderlands any number of times.

As for the vision Mat has of Rand and Min in a tent that's after Mat gets out of the TG. As I mentioned earlier we know that time can flow differently in the Finn world. On Mat's second trip there in TSR he only spent an hour or two there by his personal time while 6 full days passed in Rhuidean. The same could have happened on his trip there in TOM.

 

The only vision that I find impossible to move is the vision Rand has in Bandar Eban of Mat riding through Caemlyn with Thom.

The colors changed to Mat, riding through the streets of a familiar city. Caemlyn? Thom was there, with him.

--tGS, ch 31

Even if we assume that Rand might be mistaken about which city it is, Mat has not been to any cities that can possibly be confused with Caemlyn in a very long time. He got to Hinderstap about 10 days after the perpetual cloud cover started which pegs it to roughly the same day Nyn is studying 100 weaves for the testing in tGS chapter 7. This is well before Rand gets to Bandar Eban. And Hinderstap is a village anyway. It can hardly be confused with Caemlyn. Hindertap's mayor tells Mat that that Trustair (which he describes as a small town) is 20 leagues away and doesn't mention any other towns, certainly nothing that can be confused with Caemlyn which is supposed to be one of the greatest cities in all of Randlands. Mat thinks on that too in tGS, ch 34. And there is nothing on the map in those parts which would compare to Caemlyn anyway.

We also know Mat spent weeks in Camelyn before meeting Elayne, then he started the dragon making and then he killed the gholam before Perrin arrives and they hook up.

Not sure how you got that. Can you explain please?

We know when Perrin arrives with reference to VoG.

I don't understand that one either. Could you elaborate?

[Whizbang]

Re: Timing

 

How long is a week in Randland? I seem to remember that it is 10 days, rather than 7. So, if people are counting weeks as 7, this may account for the discrepancies.

[herid]

yes, a week is 10 days in Randlands but none of us are counting it as 7.

[Sharaman]

@Sharaman actually, some of these are debatable. namely, we don't precisely know when Verin died ref VoG. It's commonly assumed that VoG happened 1-2 days after the Tower unification but it can actually be a few days more. It can be as much as 7-8 days in principle. We also don't know exactly when Mat left for the TG. People often forget that time can flow with different speed in the Finn world. That's what happened to Mat on his second trip there in TSR. He only spent about an hour there by his own time but it was 6 days in Rhuidean. The assumption that Perrin arrived at FOM just one day before the meeting doesn't have to be true either.

 

We know when Mat left for ToG -- Perrin sees a vision of Rand with the Borderlanders as Mat leaves so it's Far Madding coincident. We also have Mat's vision after he exited ToG, with ref to Rand & Min in a tent.

Assuming Mat's timeline hasn't pushed far ahead of everybody in the entire narrative, this must be either in Far Madding or at FoM. Hence, he didn't spend more than 1 night and the following day till evening in ToG.

Perrin leaves for FoM after he sees the vision of Rand at Far Madding. So we know pretty accurately when he gets there assuming Rand keeps his schedule of going to FoM the day after he meets the Borderlanders.

The problem is that if Mat's trip to the TG takes place just one day before FOM then it's completely impossible to make him waiting to do so to be any less than 38 days as he spent quite some time in Caemlyn before VoG (at the very least 9 days by my count, and likely longer) and the FOM meeting is 28 days after Rand showed up at the Tower which at a minimum 1 day after VoG . This contradicts his firm intentions to go to the TG as soon as his oath to Verin allows, i.e. after 30 days. BS confirmed that he did just that in an interview.

So I'm thinking of possible alternate explanations, given that BS never acknowledged that there are any errors in Mat's timeline.

 

I know about the visions you mention but they might be explained away with some effort. There could be something like the "prophetic rumors" about the Tower uniting and the Seanchan attacking the White Tower that are mentioned in ToM, ch 8.

If we allow for such things then the vision that Perrin has of Rand and Borderlanders at the time when Mat leaves for the TG could be a red herring and could show some other meeting and not the one at Far Madding. Rand has been off screen a lot in ToM and could have visited the Borderlands any number of times.

As for the vision Mat has of Rand and Min in a tent that's after Mat gets out of the TG. As I mentioned earlier we know that time can flow differently in the Finn world. On Mat's second trip there in TSR he only spent an hour or two there by his personal time while 6 full days passed in Rhuidean. The same could have happened on his trip there in TOM.

 

The only vision that I find impossible to move is the vision Rand has in Bandar Eban of Mat riding through Caemlyn with Thom.

The colors changed to Mat, riding through the streets of a familiar city. Caemlyn? Thom was there, with him.

--tGS, ch 31

Even if we assume that Rand might be mistaken about which city it is, Mat has not been to any cities that can possibly be confused with Caemlyn in a very long time. He got to Hinderstap about 10 days after the perpetual cloud cover started which pegs it to roughly the same day Nyn is studying 100 weaves for the testing in tGS chapter 7. This is well before Rand gets to Bandar Eban. And Hinderstap is a village anyway. It can hardly be confused with Caemlyn. Hindertap's mayor tells Mat that that Trustair (which he describes as a small town) is 20 leagues away and doesn't mention any other towns, certainly nothing that can be confused with Caemlyn which is supposed to be one of the greatest cities in all of Randlands. Mat thinks on that too in tGS, ch 34. And there is nothing on the map in those parts which would compare to Caemlyn anyway.

We also know Mat spent weeks in Camelyn before meeting Elayne, then he started the dragon making and then he killed the gholam before Perrin arrives and they hook up.

Not sure how you got that. Can you explain please?

We know when Perrin arrives with reference to VoG.

I don't understand that one either. Could you elaborate?

Mat's time in Caemlyn.

Mat's POV. He thinks he's spent a lot of time hanging around in Caemlyn hanging around trying to see Elayne before he loses patience and writes the letter.

IIRC Mat is well past the Verin 10 day deadline before he meets Elayne - he just stubbornly refuses to open the letter.

 

About Perrin's timeline.

Perrin participated in VoG / saw it happening.

After that we have his timeline reasonable clearly mapped out if we reference both his own actions and the fight at the WT

He has the trial.

We don't know if there's a long gap in-between VoG and the trial but it's unlikely.

Tam leaves Perrin's camp at a point when the trial is set for two days after but Perrin asks for a postponement because of the bubble of evil.

VoG happens the third night after Rand beats up Tam in Tear.

There is the gap between VoG and the actual trial (cannot recall if the exact time of postponement is mentoned)

Immediately after the trial, Perrin grabs the dreamspike and gets dragged into the WT battle.

Then he jumps immediately out to Whitebridge and back again to Jehanna to fight that night

Then he jumps back to Andor the next day after signing on Galad

There he meets Mat etc.

So we have VoG +2 days+ whatever postponement Perrin asked for the trial + 2 nights before Perrin is in Andor

If we assume the Borderlander meeting vision is coincident then he had Grady drop Mat off at ToG approx a month later.

 

I know about the Mat problem if the Perrin vision of Rand+Borderlanders is the Far Madding meeting.

That's why I said there's a problem with his timeline.

You have a very difficult retcon if you assume that the Borderlander scene is a prophetic vision - Perrin is awake and highly aware when he sees Rand+borderlanders unlike in his earlier dream visions. Everyone of the other colour visions seems to have been time-coincident.

I agree that Mat's timeline could have run ahead while in ToG but in that case, he's now ahead of the rest of the timelines in the narrative.

[herid]

AFAIK, there is nothing in Mat's POVs saying that he's waited more than 10 days before meeting Elayne. The closest time frame reference is when Thom mentioned in ch 8 that somebody tried to mug Mat a 3 days ago. That's one day before he met Elayne.

It's not reasonable to assume that Mat would wait 10+ days before sending Elayne a second letter. He was in serious hurry.

 

about Perrin's timeline. First, VoG, happens the very next day after Rand and Tam confrontation. Not sure where you got 3 days. But that is a minor thing. The other things are harder to pin down because time references are often vague. One that is not vague is when Morgase and Galad meet Elayne. That happens the next day after Elayne talks to Gawyn in the gardens which is one week (10 days) after VoG. But from there on it gets vague again. I don't know how to pin down the meeting between Elayne and Perrin. Also, about the scene where Perrin drops off Mat at the TG and goes to FOM. My point was that if the vision Perrin has there of Rand with the borderlanders is that of Rand in Far Madding then you are right and it's just one day before FOM. But this screws up Mat's timeline completely. so what I was saying that perhaps that vision shows Rand with some other borderlanders somewhere else, say in the borderlands. then it could have happened much earlier. This still doesn't fix all the problems with Mat's timeline but it makes them less severe.