"Your pain sings in my heart, Rand Al'Thor...We could not come in time."

[Orderofolde]

In TEoTW, when Rand first meets Loial in Master Gill's Inn The Queen's Blessing, Rand reveals that he is not Aiel as Loial seems to think, but from the Two Rivers, a place which was once called Manatheren. Loial laments of the loss of the Ogier Grove there, then tells Rand, "Your pain sings in my heart, Rand Al'Thor. We could not come in time." This indicates that at the time the Ogier had long-handles on their axes and were engaged in fighting in the Trolloc Wars.

 

It is just me or did just about everyone fail Manatheren except for Aemon and his own army? The army marched the incredible distance it did and with such speed to arrive even though everyone thought hope was lost. Tar Valon's Sisters apart from the Queen of Manatheren failed to give aid, Aridhol was rife with suspicion and thus promised aid yet did not send armies which was a betrayal and the other nations did not come. However, Loial reports to Rand that the Ogier could not come in time, which indicates that they either thought it was a lost cause and didn't attempt it, or which I am leaning towards, that they arrived but it was after Aemon's defeat and the death of the Queen.

 

If so, perhaps the Ogier had a hand in helping the folk of the Two Rivers to sweep out the last of the Trolloc armies and to rebuild, those few that remained. I'm thinking that the "Quarry Road" and that old foundation that is beside the Winespring Inn and that old oak tree growing up in the middle of it are pretty significant and hint at Ogier doing, both the foundation of a much larger, older Inn and the massive oak tree people take shade under in the summer enjoying ale and their game of 9 pins or whatever was mentioned of it. Stonework and trees, another precursor of what is yet to come? Ogier built Manatheren after all, and some maintained the grove even after they had finished building the city and had begun finding their Steddings again through use of the Ways. RJ knew the story from start to finish before he began writing it, we see hints of that all through the books, even if healing and some power-related things grew over time. What do you think? Me, I'm still pondering how we have a Waygate at Manatheren and no one from Aridhol, Tar Valon, or anywhere else used it to get home quick to reinforce the city and the Two Rivers. Had Machin Shin come about by then and the Ways went dark?

[Durinax]

the use of the ways fell off rather quickly I believe, not to mention it wasn't a thing that humans knew too much about to begin with (nonchannellers).

 

The ogier probably where putting too much time into debate and couldn't arrive in time. In fact if Loials emotions are indication, this could be one of the points that he uses to convince the Ogier to stay and fight.

 

Also when the Queen died was when the shadowspawn armies broke and where destroyed

[Whizbang]

I think I remember that the Ways only went dark in the past few hundred years. The WOT Wiki says it was during the War of a Hundred Years, after Artur Hawkwing's death (I realize this is not the most reliable source). The only reason for TV/Ogier/Aemon not using the Ways that I can think of is that the Ways are not practical to send armies through. You not only have thousands of people, but also usually a baggage train and war machines and all that. I always got the impression that the Way's bridges were no wider than, say, a single lane on a street, maybe a little wider. And the doors may not be wide or tall enough to handle lots of wagons and supplies. I dunno. Maybe the bottleneck was the requirement of an Ogier guide. TV didn't have an Ogier handy at the time to guide sisters through the ways. Maybe the Ogier were late, not because of the time to travel, but because the news of Manetheren reached them too late (they are a pretty isolated group, after all).

[Suttree]

It is just me or did just about everyone fail Manatheren except for Aemon and his own army? The army marched the incredible distance it did and with such speed to arrive even though everyone thought hope was lost. Tar Valon's Sisters apart from the Queen of Manatheren failed to give aid, Aridhol was rife with suspicion and thus promised aid yet did not send armies which was a betrayal and the other nations did not come. However, Loial reports to Rand that the Ogier could not come in time, which indicates that they either thought it was a lost cause and didn't attempt it, or which I am leaning towards, that they arrived but it was after Aemon's defeat and the death of the Queen.

 

I've always wondered how much of a difference an AS presence would have made. Help was ordered but Tetsuan due to whatever issue she had with the Queen secretly averted it. when found out she was stripped of staff and stole and stilled. Certainly a few other nations and possibly the Ogier would have made it in time had AS been present. Wonder if Tetsuan was a DF.

[herid]

I think I remember that the Ways only went dark in the past few hundred years. The WOT Wiki says it was during the War of a Hundred Years, after Artur Hawkwing's death (I realize this is not the most reliable source). The only reason for TV/Ogier/Aemon not using the Ways that I can think of is that the Ways are not practical to send armies through. You not only have thousands of people, but also usually a baggage train and war machines and all that. I always got the impression that the Way's bridges were no wider than, say, a single lane on a street, maybe a little wider. And the doors may not be wide or tall enough to handle lots of wagons and supplies. I dunno. Maybe the bottleneck was the requirement of an Ogier guide. TV didn't have an Ogier handy at the time to guide sisters through the ways. Maybe the Ogier were late, not because of the time to travel, but because the news of Manetheren reached them too late (they are a pretty isolated group, after all).

You are right about the time the Ways went dark. Loial said in tEoTW, ch 43 that it happened about a thousand years ago, during the War of a Hundred Years. So The Ways were fully functional during the Trolloc wars. About the width of the Ways, I don't think the Ogier have any war machines (none have ever been mentioned) so I doubt that would have been a problem. And the Trollocs who are similar in size to Ogier are currently getting through the Ways in huge numbers to attack Caemlyn. The same thing happened in KoD during the attack o the Algarin's manor. The last thing you mention is likely the correct one. We don't know when the Ogier got the news that they were needed. The could have gotten it late, especially if they got it via the Aes Sedai which is quite possible.

[kght22]

i'll read the rest later, but i would have people keep in mind that within 3 generations of loial among the ogier the ways were passable, in inside 4 used regularly by the ogier, during the time of the trolloc wars they would have been passable if not regularly used.

remember in tdr when they meet the last of the ogier to attempt the ways (other than loial) and he was 2 generations before loial, likely born not long after the if not during the war of 100 years.

[Orderofolde]

the use of the ways fell off rather quickly I believe, not to mention it wasn't a thing that humans knew too much about to begin with (nonchannellers).

 

The ogier probably where putting too much time into debate and couldn't arrive in time. In fact if Loials emotions are indication, this could be one of the points that he uses to convince the Ogier to stay and fight.

 

Also when the Queen died was when the shadowspawn armies broke and where destroyed

This is true, all the guidings are in Ogier script. Or, as we commonly see with oral history and RJ has a fondness for, the armies far in the north, likely the Blight, had to march south to a Waygate, and walked days inside the ways before emerging in time to face the shadow, could be how they made it when they shouldn't have. It gives us much to think on, but true, the Ways were all done in Ogier script so Ogier chiefly used them to maintain the stonework and the groves until Machin Shin.

[Orderofolde]

I think I remember that the Ways only went dark in the past few hundred years. The WOT Wiki says it was during the War of a Hundred Years, after Artur Hawkwing's death (I realize this is not the most reliable source). The only reason for TV/Ogier/Aemon not using the Ways that I can think of is that the Ways are not practical to send armies through. You not only have thousands of people, but also usually a baggage train and war machines and all that. I always got the impression that the Way's bridges were no wider than, say, a single lane on a street, maybe a little wider. And the doors may not be wide or tall enough to handle lots of wagons and supplies. I dunno. Maybe the bottleneck was the requirement of an Ogier guide. TV didn't have an Ogier handy at the time to guide sisters through the ways. Maybe the Ogier were late, not because of the time to travel, but because the news of Manetheren reached them too late (they are a pretty isolated group, after all).

You raise some good points. An army marches on its stomach and I didn't get the impression that the bridges and guidings were very wide. Aside from the dark there is the general fear of falling over the edge into nothingness.

[Orderofolde]

It is just me or did just about everyone fail Manatheren except for Aemon and his own army? The army marched the incredible distance it did and with such speed to arrive even though everyone thought hope was lost. Tar Valon's Sisters apart from the Queen of Manatheren failed to give aid, Aridhol was rife with suspicion and thus promised aid yet did not send armies which was a betrayal and the other nations did not come. However, Loial reports to Rand that the Ogier could not come in time, which indicates that they either thought it was a lost cause and didn't attempt it, or which I am leaning towards, that they arrived but it was after Aemon's defeat and the death of the Queen.

 

I've always wondered how much of a difference an AS presence would have made. Help was ordered but Tetsuan due to whatever issue she had with the Queen secretly averted it. when found out she was stripped of staff and stole and stilled. Certainly a few other nations and possibly the Ogier would have made it in time had AS been present. Wonder if Tetsuan was a DF.

Quite possible, knowing the penchant the Black Ajah and the Shadow has for trying to control entire groups, or in the least heavily influence them.

[Orderofolde]

i'll read the rest later, but i would have people keep in mind that within 3 generations of loial among the ogier the ways were passable, in inside 4 used regularly by the ogier, during the time of the trolloc wars they would have been passable if not regularly used.

remember in tdr when they meet the last of the ogier to attempt the ways (other than loial) and he was 2 generations before loial, likely born not long after the if not during the war of 100 years.

Very good observation. We do see Black Ajah little miss multi-braid navigate them with the girls leaving Tar Valon with a piece of paper as a guide. I'm thinking that maybe this was an oops on RJ's part. If I was the queen I'd have sent fifty men to follow the guidings wherever they led to ask for help. The waygates are all outside great cities of the time and outside of Stedding. Men were bound to find their way to places that could have offered aid, however little it might have been it would have helped, even with the Shadow in the works. A few Ogier, a few sisters, a company of cavalry could have reinforced the line allowing them to hold longer. in the grand scope of RJ's trolloc attacks and endless reinforcements I suppose Manatheren was doomed to fall, but the land had to have more than just a single crown city. Perhaps what was lost in translation over the years was that the trolloc army burned and destroyed other cities in their march for the Crown City in the mountains where Aemon made his last stand. Sorry if I look too much into details, but History is my Forte as well as me being a Battlefield Historian.

[wotfan4472]

It is interesting to note that Tsutama was the first Amrylin raised from the Red Ajah, as Bonwhin was the second. Judging from Elaida's 'turn', Tsutama was most likely influenced by a Black Keeper, in a far more detrimental way; in the first two cases, Ishamael was roaming at this time, making it even more certain that both Manetheren and Hawkwing's Empire would fall, purley to keep the world weak for the Last Battle. This could also be the motive behind Malkier's destruction as well; influencing the Dragon's birth. Even more shocking, IN EACH CASE, Ishamael was acting on the DO's DIRECT ORDERS no matter what he said on screen; meaning that the Seals were imperfect from the beginning, as has been proven. In any case a very sad story, Manetheren's fall, as bad as Malkier's.

[AquilaInfernus]

Perhaps it was a simple as the Waygates not being strategically located to defend Manetheren? They also don't appear to be designed to move large numbers of troops, being perhaps a couple of metres wide at their narrowest. They might work as a secure supply line, but not for large scale troop movement. Don't forget the details would blur as we see with all the rumours mentioned at the end of many of the books

[Luckers]

It is just me or did just about everyone fail Manatheren except for Aemon and his own army? The army marched the incredible distance it did and with such speed to arrive even though everyone thought hope was lost. Tar Valon's Sisters apart from the Queen of Manatheren failed to give aid, Aridhol was rife with suspicion and thus promised aid yet did not send armies which was a betrayal and the other nations did not come. However, Loial reports to Rand that the Ogier could not come in time, which indicates that they either thought it was a lost cause and didn't attempt it, or which I am leaning towards, that they arrived but it was after Aemon's defeat and the death of the Queen.

 

I've always wondered how much of a difference an AS presence would have made. Help was ordered but Tetsuan due to whatever issue she had with the Queen secretly averted it. when found out she was stripped of staff and stole and stilled. Certainly a few other nations and possibly the Ogier would have made it in time had AS been present. Wonder if Tetsuan was a DF.

 

Tetsuan blocked aid for Manetheren out of jealousy of Eldrene's strength in the Power, according to Moiraine in tGH.

[madman]

Also i would like to point out that a lot of things happened because the prophecies of the dragon needed to be fulfilled. They say he shall be of the ancient blood (aiel) and raised of the old Blood (remnant of Manetheren blood). His mother is Tigraine Mantear and remember all she had to go through to birth rand on the slopes of dragonmount. Her Aes sedai advisor had a foretelling she had to go to the tree fold land. Where she survived then became a maiden so she would marry no man. Then Laman cut down Avendoraldera so the aiel came after him even a pregnant Tigraine. to finally give birth to Rand on Dragonmount. I did not even mention everything that happened to get Rand born but i believe Manetheren had to fall because the the pattern need it to.

[Whizbang]

Very good observation. We do see Black Ajah little miss multi-braid navigate them with the girls leaving Tar Valon with a piece of paper as a guide. I'm thinking that maybe this was an oops on RJ's part.

 

The stones in the Ways, at this point, also had trolloc script on them. Liandrin is Black Ajah. She had a sheet of paper that she used to translate the stones, which she didn't let the girls see. It might have been an Ogier translation document of some sort, but my guess is that the paper was a list of trolloc script messages she was supposed to follow. The equivelant of a Google Maps directions prinout (Make a slight left and continue on descriptionless path for three guide postings, then hard right... and so on).

[Viperswhip]

It is of course very possible that a White may know the Ogier language, but more probably a Brown Black wrote it down for her. I don't remember who in her party was Brown, or if they knew of each other before they fled the Tower.

[Byzantine279]

It is also possible someone had already scouted the path and simply informed her of which posts to turn at. She didn't need to know what the posts said as well.

[Orderofolde]

It is of course very possible that a White may know the Ogier language, but more probably a Brown Black wrote it down for her. I don't remember who in her party was Brown, or if they knew of each other before they fled the Tower.

I thought it interesting that in TEoTW it is stated that without an Ogier guide no man could find his way through the Ways. We've seen some magic at work in the form of the Trollocs getting melted into the stone and some other gruesome traps. It would be nice to know more about the laws of the ways. Loial guides them to Shinar and then guides Faile and PErrin to the Two Rivers. It has been said that there are Ogier Darkfriends. Perhaps the paper was from one of them! Wouldn't that beat all and hold to RJ's cleverness.

[Viperswhip]

Well, that's probably just the Ogier underestimating the Brown Ajah, or Moiraine throwing some self-esteem Loial's way. It's pretty clear to me that at least some Aes Sedai probably picked up the language over time and obviously amongst the Forsaken Mesaana and probably Ishy definitely knew it.

[Durinax]

Well, that's probably just the Ogier underestimating the Brown Ajah, or Moiraine throwing some self-esteem Loial's way. It's pretty clear to me that at least some Aes Sedai probably picked up the language over time and obviously amongst the Forsaken Mesaana and probably Ishy definitely knew it.

how do we know Mesaana knew?

[Viperswhip]

We don't know for sure, but she was a scholar and wanna be researcher. The Ogier were well involved with the general Aes Sedai society. She seems to be fairly scholarly. It's just a presumption on my part really, but it's a decent guess.

[Durinax]

We don't know for sure, but she was a scholar and wanna be researcher. The Ogier were well involved with the general Aes Sedai society. She seems to be fairly scholarly. It's just a presumption on my part really, but it's a decent guess.

well we haven't seen any ogier talk get used so it may be they kind of hide it from humans

[Viperswhip]

Well, someone evil knows it, Liandrian wasn't wandering around the ways discovered by trial and error.

[Durinax]

Well, someone evil knows it, Liandrian wasn't wandering around the ways discovered by trial and error.

well earlier a valid theory was that she was reading trolloc runes, which would make a little more sense to me

[Viperswhip]

Well, she had a crib sheet. I guess it could have been a Trolloc Rune to English cheat sheet.