I see dead people

[cloglord]

I noticed something, and wondered if I am mistaken or it is actually the case, and if it is the cse, does it have any ramifications?

 

If, and this is a big if, the ashamen seen walking up the stairs in far madding were the first, in book, manifestation of dead people walking. They would seem to be shadows of the recently dead. It seems like every instance since, puts the ghosts further and further back in time. Recognizable people in So Harbor, and in Rand's hideout. Then an aes sedai seen at the beggining of KoD dead for 100 years or more. Then other instances of ancient ghosts by Valan Luca's troop, and then more ancient ghosts in the white tower during Egwene's chapter. Are the ghosts coming from further and further back? If so, how long until ghosts from the AoL start showing up? How do you think LTT would react to dead people he knew? Or the Forsaken for that matter? Is it possible that when the time comes, if this is the case, that the parting veil could pull the "ghost" of LTT out of Rand's conciousness?

 

I'm not saying this is true, or even pertinent, just thought, it would make for a neat discussion.

[rd2000]

Those were illusions. Padan Fain created them.

[Gentled Ben]

Still, it's kind of an interesting thought. Are we certain that that's the pattern though? For example, the ones in the White Tower- are they following a pattern or are they random? One ghost is mentioned as having a breast bared (can't imagine why that random fact stuck in my memory), and we can assume that that was the style during whatever period in which she lived, but can we tell whether she showed up in some sort of reverse chronological order, or if she popped out ( :P ) somewhere in between sightings of ghosts from other times, both before and after hers?

[cloglord]

Those were illusions. Padan Fain created them.

 

Says who?

[Kadere]

The man Robert Jordan.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Only the two Asha'man in Far Madding were Fain's illusions. They were part of a specific trap to catch Rand.

 

The people in So Habor, the village (from Shiota) that swallowed the man in northern Altara, the dead people at Lord Algarin's manor, and the dead people that are being seen in the Tower, Caemlyn, and everywhere else in the world, are not Fain's illusions. They are an effect on the Pattern caused by the Dark One, much like the shifting halls also observed in the Tower and Royal Palace of Caemlyn, and the ripples in the world observed in As If The World Were Fog (chapter 26 of Knife of Dreams). The dead returning is referred to by Verin, among others, as a sign that the Dark One is about to break free.

 

Everything we've seen so far has seemed to be from the time between the Breaking and the "present". Certainly everyone who has been recognized is from recent history. So it is unlikely, unless the problem worsens dramatically, that Lews Therin will see anyone he recognizes.

[cloglord]

Kadere, I don't claim to be an expert on every sentence ever uttered by RJ, so I went to the wotmania site where they catalouge every pertinent word by RJ on the books. Not once there did RJ mention Fain making an illusion on that occasion or any other. I would love to see a quote from the RJ if you've got it.

 

Robert, I don't think you are right. Not every instance of dead sightings is of recent times. The village in shiota chapter in KoD is a manifestation of a shiotan village from between the time of the trolloc wars, and the war of 100 years. Another example would be the ghosts of women seen in the white tower, with dresses that left bare breasts, certainly not a fashion seen in recent times within the tower.

 

I am specifically asking if there is a pattern. I posed a question, so now I'm gonna try and answer it.

 

First possible sighting of dead people.

 

WH Chapter 33.

Gedwyn and Torval appear shortly after their deaths.

 

(I know that other's believe that this was an illusion by Fain, by why would fain use an innocuos illusion of two obviously dead people to distract Rand from him, when Fain is right in front of him, muttering in a crazy way?)

 

The next dead person sighting come during the CoT proulouge, when the Carhienien maid comes running to tell about DObraine being nearly dead, she claims to have seen the ghost of Maringil, one of Colvalere's vistims from LoC.

 

The next sightings are of some Andoran Lord's dead grandmother, and of the Lord of So Harbor's dead wife, in CoT CH.'s . 10 & 26 respectively. These are obviously recently dead, but not likely to be much more, (if any,) recently dead than Maringil.

 

Chapter 29 of CoT Mat sees a group of dead people, walking purposefully somewhere, neither Selucia nor Tuon see them. First time we se a group of ghosts. First time we know that two people can be in the same place and not see the same ghosts.

 

The next sighting comes from KoD's in the proplouge. Itralde seems to see a group of people get run down by the seanchan charge, yet the seanchan don't waver at all, and there are no bodies afterwards. Again a group of ghosts, and an instance where two different perspectives do not share the visions.

 

KoD Ch. 2 shows a Beonin POV where she sees the ghost of an aes sedai who had been dead for 40 years.

 

KoD Ch. 10 the dissapearing Shiotan Village from at least 1000 years ago.

 

KoD Ch. 19

Loial muses that the humans had been seeing ghosts.

 

KoD. Ch. 24

Egwene sees ghosts of bare breasted aes sedai, and thinks that it has been a long time since that sort of fashion was seen in the Tower.

 

 

It seems here that every specific mention of a ghost sighting is from the less and less recently dead.

 

Torval and Gedwin, Maringil, Dead lord's grandma and dead lord's wife( ambiguous time of death), Aes Sedai who's been dead for 40 years, 1000 year old village, ancient aes sedai ghost of undetermined age.

[rd2000]

No. In KOD the sister that leaves the rebel camp and returns to Elaida sees a ghost of her old AS teacher. That's not very far back.

[cloglord]

I just read that section, two minutes ago. It clearly says that she died 40 years ago.

[rd2000]

and 40 years is a long time? compared to when the Shiotans were alive?

 

We have been seeing dead walking since WH. That was several months back in Randland time. It doesn't seem likely the "scale" that you are using would remain stable for a few months, then run rapidly backwards in a few weeks.

[Gentled Ben]

Yeah, because something really weird and supernatural like this, in a fantasy epic to boot, would follow some kind of rigid, predictable linear pattern, like the food spoilage problem does...

[RobertAlexWillis]

Robert, I don't think you are right. Not every instance of dead sightings is of recent times.

 

Allow me to quote myself, in the post you were responding to.

 

Everything we've seen so far has seemed to be from the time between the Breaking and the "present". Certainly everyone who has been recognized is from recent history.

 

Between the Breaking and the "present" covers 3000 years. (That includes the village from Shiota, which I also mentioned specifically). The statement that everyone who has been recognized is from recent history is a different, but also correct, statement. Everyone Lews Therin would recognize is from before the Breaking, over 3000 years ago, and we have no verifiable sightings of anything that old.

[cloglord]

It has not been several months in the books between the end of WH and KoD. It's been something like three weeks.

 

http://www.users.bigpond.com/steven_cooper/tl1000.htm#book9

 

4 days later Egwene mentions the bare-breasted ghost.

 

It is a full week after Beonin sees her ghost, that Mat sees the village in shiota.

 

It is the day after that that Loial thinks to himself that he would like to go walk around in one of these disappearing ghost cities he's been hearing about.

 

So R2D000

 

These dead sightings have been going on for about 3 weeks in randland time. The first two weeks were going slow, but getting progressively faster. I think that the backwards effect could be exponential, and it's just starting to move really fast. Or alternately, it could have something to do with either the sulfur wind or the three pulses of destruction. In either case, it seems that these things are getting bigger and further back.

 

What if Rand is at SG during TG just in time to witness the ghostly manifestation of the hundred companions strike @ SG?

[Thor]

What purpose does this serve for the DO to have ghostly manifestations? That's worrying.

[RobertAlexWillis]

What purpose does this serve for the DO to have ghostly manifestations? That's worrying.

 

I don't think they're so much a problem in themselves, as a symptom of the loosening of the Pattern. So, the Dark One isn't out there trying to raise ghosts, he's working the Pattern apart, and the ghosts are a side effect. Thats pure opinion though.

[HoppyQ]

Ok, so way leftfield, what happens if Rand sees the ghost of LTT with the old nutjob himself running around in his brain? Does LTT somehow jump into his ghost and come back to life to help Rand fight the last battle and then get killed to save Rand so he can live? Sounds a little far fetched but then again...

[cloglord]

Idon't think that is what would happen. Since this is a very hypothetical scenario, If it were to play out, I see it playing out like this.....

 

 

At come point Rand and LTT are going to be integrated, they share memories, control of the OP and of their shared body. Semhirage seemes to have indicated that this is the type of thing that Rand can expect, and that even Graendal usually failed to seperate the combined personalities of someone thus afflicted. Rand thinks that he is alive with a crazy person in his head, and LTT thinks that he is alive with a crazy person in hiss. Suddenly Rand/LTT sees the ghost of himself or someone else known to LTT, perhapss Eleyna, and realizes that he is in fact the crazy person living in another body, and accomplishes the near imposible task of seperating the personalities by virtue of giving up.

 

I see this as a possible scenario, if, and I mean if, the ghosts are in fact moving backwards towards the time of the AoL.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Semhirage seemes to have indicated that this is the type of thing that Rand can expect, and that even Graendal usually failed to seperate the combined personalities of someone thus afflicted.

 

Um, no. What Semirhage said was that even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration. According to Semirhage, what Rand can expect is an abrupt descent into terminal madness. (Knife of Dreams, chapter 27, A Plain Wooden Box)

 

Besides, Lews Therin remembers dying. He even remembers how he did it. (Knife of Dreams, chapter 19 Vows) He doesn't really think of himself as a live person with a madman in his head anymore (yes I know he used to), and he doesn't want to separate, he just wants to die again. If he could separate by "giving up", he would have by now. Lews Therin is not real in the sense of being separate from Rand. He is like ... a facet ... of Rand's soul. The cure is re-integration, not separation.

 

Also, we have no confirmed sightings older than the village from Shiota (a nation formed after the Trolloc Wars that lasted until Hawkwing) Thats at least a thousand after the end of the Breaking, meaning it was from 1300 to 2300 years after Lews Therin's death. And given the number of people that have been recognized (meaning they're from less than a generation ago), the phenomenon seems much more focused on the recent past. It seems very unlikely to me that Lews Therin will see anyone from the Age of Legends.

[cloglord]

I'm glad you quoted from that chapter in KoD, because it is the same place that holds the bits about LTT wondering why he can't raise HIS hands. LTT is clearly still confused about what is going on.

 

In that same part of KoD Loial thinks about how a good size village had been reported to have disapearesd. Since Tear has taxes on buildings that prevent any cities from becoming "good sized", we have to figure that that particular apparition dates from before the war of a hundred years, from the time that Tear was a part of moriena

[Gentled Ben]

Tear itself is a "good-sized" city, and LTT can't raise his "hands" before he remembers how to die, and certainly before Rand meets Semirhage, as she's the one who solves the "hands" problem for him by removing one. It is after the Deathgates, Blossoms and Arrows of Fire (the weave for which he needed his hands) that LTT remembers how he died, that is, by overdrawing on the source, and instead of releasing saidin, he keeps drawing more and more in lttle increments, while Logain, Cadsuane, Rand and Min all freak out over it. Rand promises him that they can die at Tarmon Gaidon, remember? THAT'S the very part of the book where LTT remembers both that he died and how he died, and it's after he can't raise his hands.

[RobertAlexWillis]

LTT is clearly still confused about what is going on.

 

Thank you for making my point. If he can remember his own death, and still not really know whats going on, then seeing a ghost that he recognizes isn't going to fix him up.

 

And the cure is not further separation. It is seamless reintegration, the recombining of the soul into one facet personality, instead of a splintered soul. So, what you are describing would just make the problem worse.

 

In that same part of KoD Loial thinks about how a good size village had been reported to have disapearesd. Since Tear has taxes on buildings that prevent any cities from becoming "good sized", we have to figure that that particular apparition dates from before the war of a hundred years, from the time that Tear was a part of moriena

 

First of all, there are "good sized villages" that are much smaller than small cities. The taxes in Tear would not prevent villages from forming. So, your contention is false to start with, and even if it were correct, it would mean nothing, since Moreina was a contemporary nation with Shiota, it wouldn't be anything any older than we've already seen. In other words, still at least 1300 years after Lews Therin's death. We haven't seen anything within even a thousand years of his lifetime.

[Gentled Ben]

First of all, there are "good sized villages" that are much smaller than small cities

Bah, you know me...post first, read later. :oops:

[RobertAlexWillis]

LOL .... Ben, my comments weren't directed at you, they were aimed at cloglord.

[Iceman]

Those were illusions. Padan Fain created them.

 

Says who?

 

Reread the text in WH of Rand in Far Madding. I would quote if I had the book here at work, but to paraphrase:

Fain waved his hand and the Illusion of the two Ashaman that Rand and Lan just killed appeared coming up the steps. Rand sliced his sword through the Illusion and Fain used the opportunity of Rand's distraction to run off down the steps.

[cloglord]

Iceman, I did reread it, and the context is confusing. It says that Fain lifted his hand, and the next thing after that is the two ashamen walking up the stairs. Nothing contextualizes the two except that one happens and then the other. HOw about we try thinking of it this way.

 

Fain is standing next to the stairs, arguing with his crazy self, he looks down the stairs and sees the ghosts of the two dudes he just killed, walking towards him. I'd put up my hands and run away too.

 

Robert,

 

First, cool avatar, better that ur old one. Second, Its pretty clear from the books that Goederan, is the ONLY good sized settlement in Tear besides Tear itself. That's from TSR Pg. 327. IT mentions the building tax, the fact that NO settlments at all between Tear and the ocean, and that Goderan is only allowed to get as big as it is because its supposed to be keeping Mayene under its thumb.

 

As far as LTT being confused, my point wasn't that he's completly lucid and fighting Rand for control, my point is that LTT is clearly nuts. So who the hell knows what he would do if he saw someone from the past? He is constantly moaning about Elenya, i suspect he woulld go completely nutso if he saw her ghost. I'm not saying it will happen, I'm not saying that it will reintegrate rand/LTT if it does. I'm saying that I think it could be a plausible method for the reintegration of LTT and Rand.

 

As for us not seeing anything before the Shiotan period. So? From what we have seen it is likely that these manifestations are getting bigger and further back in time. I suspect that the closer to TG the closer to the AoL the viewing will get. Its like standing up in the middle of a movie, walking out, and complaining that you don't like the end. We aren't at the end yet. TG isn't likely to happen in the books, until Mat can get some tower of genji stuff done, till the horn is found, till tavreen do some reuniting, till the whitecloaks make it to tar valon, till the white tower is reunified, till the black tower is rent in fire and blood, till the boderlanders figure out what the hell they are doing, AND before Lan makes it from one end of the borderlands to the other, with a massive army. I guess that it will be as much as a month in in-book time before the trollocs show up. Plenty of time for the ghosts to meander their way back in time another 1500 years.

 

Once again, this is pretty hypothetical, I think it is possible, but don't know that I am willing to bet that it will happen this way. Just thought it was interesting.