Question for all WoT fans:

[TristanWebb]

But on a fundamental level all you are doing is changing the position of x atoms y years into the future. Anything you do in the past is doing the exact same thing, it is only the assumption that life is somehow a sacred and divine force in the universe that makes it seem different.

[Byzantine279]

But on a fundamental level all you are doing is changing the position of x atoms y years into the future. Anything you do in the past is doing the exact same thing, it is only the assumption that life is somehow a sacred and divine force in the universe that makes it seem different.

 

It is the difference between changing random x atoms y in the future and changing ones vital to your existence. Life is important in this equation because you can't exist if your parents don't, and if you don't exist you can't possibly go back in time and stop them from existing, which is a problem. It is entirely possible that something no one would think of would have the same effect, but we can't be sure of that, we just know that logically if you do something that precludes your own existence there are... problems.

[Knivy]

You CAN exist if your parents didnt. There is more than one way for any arrangement of particles to come into existence. All your father did was donate a few molecules to get you started, it is POSSIBLE but NOT PROBABLE that those same molecules could wind up in the right place at the right time in thousands of different ways.

[shortkut]

in thousands of different ways.

haha, thousands. Try an immeasurable number if ways

[Knivy]

I was being nice.

[TNine]

The grandfather paradox is ridiculous. You would cause just as much disruption simply moving through an atmosphere as killing yourself. The universe doesn't care about life or motivation, it only cares about position, momentum and energy. If you went back in time and moved 100kg of matter you would cause just as much pollution to the time stream as pushing your dad off a cliff.

It's just an easy equivalence. It is hard to explain the net effects that the change in the movement of atoms will have, but if you don't have your grandfather there is an obvious conundrum.

[TristanWebb]

You are still assuming that life has some kind of special property that matter that isn't a part of life doesn't have, which hasn't been shown. Existence of life isn't mandatory, existence of a single life isn't mandatory either. The universe isn't deterministic, there is enough give in quantum uncertainty to cover up any infinitely-unlikely-but-possible scenario. The physical difference between your body alive and your body dead is a matter of a small amount of energy (and maybe some displacement of brain matter to the wall behind you) which is far less change than introducing 70kg of matter from outside the time-stream into it. You go to the bathroom once in your time traveling adventure and you have altered the universe by adding more mass an energy to it that initial conditions allow. Pysicists would hate you

[Barid Bel Medar]

Although it is a very interesting discussion, could you please continue the physics debate on the General Discussion board. It has moved very much off topic, some people may want to get back on topic and discuss balefire.

[TNine]

You are still assuming that life has some kind of special property that matter that isn't a part of life doesn't have, which hasn't been shown.

If you are talking to me...no i am not.

 

Edit: Whoops, didn't actually finish this post. It's not more important, just more understandable. Explaining the widespread effect of displaced atoms in the atmosphere is a hell of a lot harder to explain then the direct effect of not having a grandfather.

[kght22]

it has not been established that one can open a gateway right behind and in front of them. but if that is possible the result of even the most minimal balefire on yourself (if it can pass through a gateway) would result in the destruction of yourself, no loop. you would be destroyed even if it was before you opened the gateway. it has to do with the fact that people retain a memory of what has happened after a balefire event even if that event has been undone.

 

edit: a person killed, or an object destroyed by balefire does not come back if someone balefires the cause. a burned thread is a burned thread.

[SylvanFox]

This same question was basically on some program I watched the other day. Only, they were talking about what would happen if someone found a way to create a wormhole, and shot himself through the wormhole a few minutes before he opened it. This is basically the same as the "Grandfather Paradox".

 

Apparently, stuff like this has led some scientists to believe that time travel will always be impossible, which must mean they thought about it a lot. There are multiple theories on just how this could work.

 

So... maybe it's not that lame to think about balefiring yourself through a gateway.

 

Well, there is also the theory that the universe already accounts for the effects of time-traveling, meaning that in "changing" the past you only cause what already happened to happen anyway.

 

There is also the possibility of the universe splitting into two different universes, where the person who changed their past was from the universe that didn't happen in (so rather than a paradox, its simply that your past has no relation to the one you alter).

 

That's interesting but my point was that if scientists and philosophers spend time talking about shooting themselves through wormholes, maybe we shouldn't feel like 100% losers for discussing self-balefire.

 

And Testy, I think you are right about it working like that.

 

I had a thought on why people would remember balefire events, but I realized it was wrong even while I was typing it. It was about memories being stored in the brain, but I suppose if time reversed a little, the memories would never have been stored? Balefire is crazy.

[kght22]

And Testy, I think you are right about it working like that.

 

I had a thought on why people would remember balefire events, but I realized it was wrong even while I was typing it. It was about memories being stored in the brain, but I suppose if time reversed a little, the memories would never have been stored? Balefire is crazy.

that is why even the shadow fears it.

[Danjaman]

You are balefired away until before you open the portal, so your thread is burned back until before you opened the portal, and you will have never balefired yourself, but you are still balefired. The fact that, according to the Pattern, it never happened, does not change the fact that your thread has been burned beyond reach.

Exactly right, nothing can re-weave a balefire'd thread. If B balefires C, then A balefires B, C will not be revived.

"But if B never existed, how could C have died?"

The pattern wouldn't read "C died at that moment", instead C would be entirely absent from the pattern; he's not dead - he never existed.

That's not true at all. Balefire does not stop you ever having existed, it only kills you in the past. C died before he had balefire thrown at him, but he still lived up until that point.

False; when Mat is revived in tFoH after Rahvin's death he distinctly remembers dieing, and yet knows that we he remembers didn't happen.

I care nothing for the subject of this thread, but will point out that this particular idea is incorrect.

 

The Threads Burn[/i]']He did not want to put her down, but he did. So he could hug Mat. Or try to.

 

Mat fended him off. "What's the matter with you? You'd think you thought we were dead. Not that we weren't, almost. Being a general has to be safer than this!"

My apologizes, I should've added the necessary preamble (To the best of my knowledge...) to my post.

Concerning Mat's remembering death, I could have sworn that there was a scene (maybe a mat PoV) where he thinks back and recalls being struck by lightning... My only counterargument is he might be lying, as we know that Mat keeps his secrets to himself. I tried to search for such a scene, but I can't find it so alas, I admit I was wrong. Also, Asmodean doesn't remember either"

Glowing Embers[/i]'] He was not sure what had happened that morning, and not sure he wanted to be sure. Too many Aiel had expressed surprise at seeing him, had claimed they had seen him dead; he did not want details. There was a long gash down the wall in front of him. He knew what made that sharp edge, that surface as slick as ice, smoother than any hand could have polished in a hundred years.

Idly—but with a shiver, too—he wondered whether being reborn in this fashion made him a new man. He did not think so. Immortality was gone.

Concerning death by balefire, sorry, that was badly worded. What I meant was the thread is blasted out of existance forever. But yes, you and your actions remain in history.

 

Again, didn't mean to sound like a know-it-all.

[Tensai0211]

What happens when some one opens a portal to the location a few feet behind them (so the portal shows themselves in front of the portal) and shoots balefire through it at themselves? :wink:ANSWER IT !

 

Time stops and a door opens in front of you allowing a short man in a white suit and bowler hat to pass you a Paradox ticket, kind of like a parking ticket but for stupidity with the OP and time. Yes the Creator does accept credit cards....

[Byzantine279]

What happens when some one opens a portal to the location a few feet behind them (so the portal shows themselves in front of the portal) and shoots balefire through it at themselves? :wink:ANSWER IT !

 

Time stops and a door opens in front of you allowing a short man in a white suit and bowler hat to pass you a Paradox ticket, kind of like a parking ticket but for stupidity with the OP and time. Yes the Creator does accept credit cards....

 

I suppose that is as good an idea as any.

 

Given have the WoT works, I suspect it would be impossible to actually test this scenario, because every time you tried something would disrupt what you were doing. Kinda like how Verin was incapable of traveling or getting to the WT no matter what she tried.