Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[sleepinghour]

Brandon posted this on Reddit last week:

 

Ah, and what a marvelous 2,000 page book it would have been. I was really shooting for this. Turns out, however, that I don't have the influence that RJ did, and couldn't persuade the publisher that printing a 2,000+ page book was viable. You'll have to be satisfied with three 800 pagers instead.

 

I do kind of hope we'll be able to do a cut of the volume in ebook where I weave the three books back into one, which would fix some of the timeline confusion in TofM, which was the big casualty of the split.

 

(I knew that, in all likelihood, a split would be mandated, and so I prepared for it by deciding on the three book split instead of a two book split, as I feel it fit the narrative flow better. However, I was working on Perrin when the first split happened, and didn't realize until afterward that by jumping back to the beginning of his story after finishing TGS, I was going to create the issues it did with Tam.)

 

Later, he elaborated on that reply and added:

 

I wouldn't consider it a phantom edit, as I wouldn't be removing sections. I'd be moving them around, adding in a few deleted scenes. More like an extended edition mixed with pacing tweak.

 

I don't know how my decisions might have changed if I hadn't felt that pressure. I might have chosen to do Rand/Perrin in the first book and Egwene/Mat in the second book. Perrin/Mat have great stories in TofM--but they're not as focused as the ones for Rand/Egwene. I don't know. The timeline might have been even worse.

 

This is something I'd have to play with, if I were actually to attempt it, to even see if the narrative flow would work that direction now that I've made writing decisions with three books--instead of one--being the reality.

 

I wonder what the deleted scenes were about.

[The Fisher King]

Sutt said a lot of it very well. For me, it was mostly a ''feel'' thing. It just ''felt'' like a ... mess. Whereas TGS ''felt'' - though far from perfect - tight, focused, like a concerted effort really went into it.

 

If you are asking for specifics, I have given many, time and again, earlier in this thread, but I don't mind repeating that much of Mat (outside of the duel with the Gholam and the TOG Sequence - which was written by RJ) made me wince. Mat's interactions with Perrin made me wince. Mat's interactions with Elayne made me wince. ALL of Elayne and her even higher levels of moronicness irritated me. Don't get me started on ''The Letter'' ... I was appaled by the regressing that Egwene did in this novel after I enjoyed her for the first time in a LONG time in The Gathering Storm ... The atrocity of what was done to the Padan Fain POV in the prologue made me want to weep for what was once a pretty cool character. Morgase bugged the heck out of me. The fight sequences felt like cheesy matrix-style ripoffs. The prose is clunky and awkward and the dialogue was inane, pedantic, juvenile and grating. The number of typos that a company the stature of TOR let slide appalled me. And I won't even go into the timeline issues...

 

Need more, because I have em lol ;)

 

My gut is telling me that AMOL - as a finished product - is going to fall somewhere between TGS and TOM in quality and for that we'll have to take what we can get.

 

 

Fish

[The Fisher King]

You know - some quotes over the years from Brandon really help explain the difference between TGS and TOM.....Well, to me at least.

 

These are paraphrases, but:

 

On TGS, Sanderson, ''We worked so hard on that book because we knew the first (post-rj WOT) book had to hit a homerun.

 

On TOM, ''It was definitely rushed - we knew we had to have a year where we got a Wheel of Time novel out.''

 

 

Fish

[yoniy0]

Maybe someone could help me with this question. It's about time lines.

 

So, Egwene was captured long before Elayne won her crown, but it took her quite some time to gain the Tower. So much time that she only managed it after the Seanchan attack, a couple of days after Elayne interrogated the BA members she was holding herself (which is logical, since there was no Tower to give them over to at the time).

 

So far, so good. Enter Mat, whose medallion enabled Elayne's plan with the BA. We know that Mat spent about a month near Caemlyn, but at least half that time before he got to meet Elayne. So, being generous, Mat left for 'finnland no more than a week after Elayne's adventure in the dungeon. Here's where it gets dicey. The attack on Caemlyn took place the evening of the FoM meeting, roughly 30+ days after Egwene's victory at the Tower. On the other hand, it took place the evening Mat emerged back from the ToG (I remember one of the ta'veren viewings implied that, but I can't recall which or where).

 

So, did Mat and Thom's incursion into 'finnland take some 25 day in Randland time? Did Grady open a Gateway each and every one of those days? What was Perrin doing for all of that time in Caemlyn, and were Talmanes and Olver sitting on Verin's warning for all of that time? Most importantly, what was the Shadow waiting for, when the BA seemed to think an attack was imminent?

[Cybertrolloc]

What about the placement of the scene would give you that idea, especially considering other stuff Perrin did before getting to Caemlyn? Is this a newer version than the PB?

 

Viperswhip:

On rereads, of all the books, I skip large portions, but then I've read most of them 10 or 11 times, so I can do that without actually missing any of the story.

 

What if you don't actually like the story much but read WoT for other reasons? I think this is the main sticking point.

[yoniy0]

Cybertrolloc, which scene are you referring to, exactly? I think the timeline I've described is fairly well established.

[The Fisher King]

A little off topic but I never understood why - as he has talked about - Brandon felt such a need to have Perrin and Mat in TGS for the fans.

 

RJ had no problem leaving major characters out of entire books. He did it to Perrin in FOH, did it to Mat in POD and sorta did it to Rand in the third book.

 

 

Fish

[Cybertrolloc]

yoniy0, read ToM 53 and Rand + BL in Far Madding then we can talk about how wrong you or BS or whomever is. At least I'm unaware of anything else that would time that scene differently.

[snooze1128]

While I concede that some of the Point of Views written by Sanderson can be awkward at times (especially Mat's POVs), I feel that Sanderson largely does not get the credit he deserves.  While nobody could possible write the WOT with the same finesse as Jordan, Sanderson, in many ways, rescued the series for me.  The books preceding The Gathering Storm read a lot slower for me than the TGS and TOM.  Albeit lacking in many aspects, the writing style imposed by Sanderson absolutely rekindled my passion for the series.  Too frequently, fans critique Sanderson's manipulation of the series; but I, for one, consider the last two books superior to some of Jordan's later novels such as Winter's Heart.

All in all, I think the activity on this forum speaks for itself: the fans can't wait for Jan. 8th, and neither can I.

[Suttree]

Snooze, KoD has an equal pace to either of Sanderson's books. It's where we are in the story arc that sped things up as much as anything. We have no idea how Sanderson will be judged ultimately on pace until we see him in a comparative spot to CoT in his own Stormlight Archive series. Further Brandon upon the release of TGS was praised widely and got a huge amount of credit(in retrospect an unrealistic amount as fans were handling him with kid gloves on).

[skalors3]

@Suttree While I happen to agree with you, something like that, like so many other things on this board, is personal opinion.

[The Fisher King]

Those aren't opinions. Those are facts. At least the matter of ''pace'' in the books and the matter of how much credit and kudos Brandon got early for TGS are both facts.

 

''Pace'' in a iterary work is something objectively measured. KOD had a super quick pace. That can not be argued.

 

And, as for how much credit Brandon was getting early...well, just google it. It is all there.

 

I apologize if I misunderstood what you were referring to concerning ''fact'' and ''opinion.''

 

 

Fish

[ArveduiEreinion]

While I concede that some of the Point of Views written by Sanderson can be awkward at times (especially Mat's POVs), I feel that Sanderson largely does not get the credit he deserves.  While nobody could possible write the WOT with the same finesse as Jordan, Sanderson, in many ways, rescued the series for me.  The books preceding The Gathering Storm read a lot slower for me than the TGS and TOM.  Albeit lacking in many aspects, the writing style imposed by Sanderson absolutely rekindled my passion for the series.  Too frequently, fans critique Sanderson's manipulation of the series; but I, for one, consider the last two books superior to some of Jordan's later novels such as Winter's Heart.

All in all, I think the activity on this forum speaks for itself: the fans can't wait for Jan. 8th, and neither can I.

 

Well, yes, because TGS, ToM, and AMoL were meant to be one book. Given the number of plotlines that were meant to be resolved how could they not seem faster in pace? I, however, would refer you to Suttree's (dead-on, I think) critique that TGS and (especially) ToM are actually bloated with unnecessary plot-work. My own opinion is that these books could have been done in 2 books written over 4 years.

[ArveduiEreinion]

Snooze, KoD has an equal pace to either o Sanderson's books. It's where we are in the story arc that sped things up as much as anything. We have no idea how Sanderson will be judged ultimately on pace until we see him in a comparative to CoT in his own Stormlight Archive series. Further Brandon upon the release of TGS was praised widely and got a huge amount of credit(in retrospect an I realistic amount as the fans were handling him with kid gloves on).

 

This.

[skalors3]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="The Fisher King" data-cid="2711469" data-time="1355971565"><p>

Those aren't opinions. Those are facts. At least the matter of ''pace'' in the books and the matter of how much credit and kudos Brandon got early for TGS are both facts.<br />

<br />

''Pace'' in a iterary work is something objectively measured. KOD had a super quick pace. That can not be argued.<br />

<br />

And, as for how much credit Brandon was getting early...well, just google it. It is all there.<br />

<br />

I apologize if I misunderstood what you were referring to concerning ''fact'' and ''opinion.''<br />

<br />

<br />

Fish</p></blockquote>

 

I am having a hard time replying to this.

 

A persons interpretation of a book is just that. Theirs. There is nothing objective to this process unless the person themselves view their opinion as objective (which happens all the time) .

 

If I think CoT is the best paced book in the series, then it is. To me. I may have difficulty convincing others to follow my view, but why should that matter to me anyways?

[The Fisher King]

Someone's ''interpretation'' of a book is certainly subjective and a matter of opinion. ''Pace'' of a book is not.

 

Pace is a literal, measurable thing. How ''good'' or ''bad'' a book is, is not.

 

There is nothing subjective about pace.

 

Now, you or suttree or me anyone may have liked - or disliked - the pace in COT, but your preferences do not change what the pace was.

 

 

Fish

[skalors3]

@Fisher How does one measure the pace of a book?

[The Fisher King]

Compare the pace of say, COT, to the pace of KOD.

 

 

Fish

[skalors3]

I make this point because an author can move the story along a timeline at a quick pace and actually move the story forward little. The reverse can happen as well.

[skalors3]

I happen to agree Fisher, CoT is much slower than KoD. That is however my opinion and in no way something that could be stated as fact.

[The Fisher King]

Of course it is a fact.

 

Anyone that says that COT was not slow is either wrong or lying.

 

Now, one may enjoy a slow book. One may enjoy a slow pace. One pay enjoy how well-crafted a slower book is and enjoy the chance to get more description and subtley. But slow is still slow.

 

As I have said before, I love COT. I love KOD. One is slow. One is quickly-paced. My affection doesn't alter either pace.

 

 

Fish

[skalors3]

That is where we'll have to disagree. Pace can be measured, but opinion, like most things in literay criticism, plays an important role.

[Suttree]

skalors in literature pace is not subjective.

 

Edit: saw Yoniy0's comment below and yes that feeling is dependent on what I'm talking about.

[The Fisher King]

That is where we'll have to disagree. Pace can be measured, but opinion, like most things in literay criticism, plays an important role.

I don't think we are disagreeing - unless you are saying that ''opinion'' and ''pace'' are the same thing. Pace is not subjective. What someone's opinion OF a pace is is certainly subjective - as are all opinions. That is what makes them opinions, lol.

 

 

Fish

[yoniy0]

Fish, Sutt, I think what skalors is saying, to which I can relate, is that it doesn't matter if the term 'pace' is used to describe an objective quality in literature studies. When he says 'pace', and when I say it, we're not using the literary term. We're describing a feeling that we get when we read a book. Now, that feeling could--and probably is--dependant on the term you referencing, but they're not one and the same.

 

yoniy0, read ToM 53 and Rand + BL in Far Madding then we can talk about how wrong you or BS or whomever is. At least I'm unaware of anything else that would time that scene differently.

Cyber, I'm not sure what 'BL' is, but I've read ToM53 again (well, I skipped Pevara's PoV) per your request. It seems Mat only spent that night in 'finnland, as he was sent there the day that Perrin Traveled to the FoM.

 

Now, would you tell me which scene it is you're referring to, and 'how wrong' you find my timeline (and why)?

 

Let me reiterate. Mat Travelled to the ToG precisely 30 days after his deal with Verin. On the other hand, Elayne's interrogation of the BA took place before Egwene won the Tower, which is slightly more than 30 days before tFoM meeting. By that token, Mat met with Verin after Elayne used his medallion, and that doesn't even account for the couple of weeks Mat waited to get an audience with Elayne.

 

What gives?