Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[MarkDiLillo]

Guys, it's not about Cads acting out of character or acting the way we wouldn't expect.  If the scene were written well then she could have done whatever in the hell Brandon/RJ had in mind for her and it would have felt natural.  The problem is that it was poorly written and an example of Brandon writing a scene that is event driven rather than character driven.  He knew suchandsuch had to happen so he stacked all the characters up, tossed them into the scene, had them spout their lines off, and put some icing on top.  Same thing happens with Rand meeting Egwene at the White Tower.

 

When RJ wrote a scene he puts himself in that characters shoes and we would get a viewpoint from their perspective .  When Brandon writes a scene he tells us what happens in that scene.  The result is that when something is a bit off the norm we don't drink it in as something happening to the character or the character taking a certain action, we instead judge it as being abnormal and having something wrong with the scene.

[skalors3]

(a) We actually do know Cadsuane's reasoning. In her own PoV, she acknowledged Sorelia's suggestion that letting Rand believe he didn't interest her was the only way to get him to use her (by the way, that's the exact same thing Moiraine did in TGH, so it's a surprise Rand never caught on to that fact; at least it is to me).(b) It doesn't matter how late it is in the game. A missing DR is better than a dying one, where stress is concerned. If he dies, that's it; game over (for all that Cadsuane knows, at least). I do agree that her feelings of responsibility for what's happened are very relevant, but whatever makes you think she didn't feel the same about not protecting him from Fain, when she took it upon herself to protect their band (and, in fact, instructed Rand not to use the Power)?Now, naturally, everyone has their breaking point, and not reaching it once is no guaranty against breaking on a different occasion. But people don't change who they are; even at your worst, you only act on your less positive qualities. For Cadsuane, that's her bossiness, perhaps her difficulty to trust people (such as, she might shot Nynaeve down just because, without considering the merits of her ideas). Becoming someone who would use the Power to keep from hearing the truth, and on a defenceless man, well, that's a whole other thing. Quite in line with Cads's reaction to letting Elza acquire the DB (oh, right, the FS; of course there's nothing you could've done to stop them. Wait, what's that? You knew all along that you're facing them? You had one in your custody for a month? Facing them is the only way to achieve what you've set out to do, all this time ago? Never mind that, keep merrily on), which again showed Brandon's bias.

I wasn't talking about Cads of the past. I knew her reason for treating Rand the way she did. That doesn't mean that Min knows. That is the only point I was making. We have unique knowledge that Min doesn't have access too.

 

Secondly, Cads isn't one to lose face. Do you expect her to try and slap a trained blademaster, who is in his void and obviously angry, while he talks down to her? I don't. I see her doing exactly as she did.

 

Also, I don't know how much true life altering stress you have seen, but I have been in some hairy situations and have seen people do exactly what you say they don't do. Completely change. It may only be for a few minutes, but it happens. I am not saying BS had this in mind. I am just saying that this scene is nowhere near the disaster that it's made out to be.

 

 

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

 

She has something like 9 total POVs, nowhere near enough to gage her every reaction.

Nah mate, you're losing me at this point. Between RJ's notes, her povs, and they way we see her test Rand's character and plan ahead is more than enough.

 

Further see Yoniy0's post above. +1

I disagree. I think we have enough to understand her personality, but not enough to understand her completely. Certainly not enough to interpret her every reaction. To say that we do is.....wishful.

You're already moving the goal posts a bit as we are talking about this specific reaction. As fr overall we have a very good idea from all the things I referenced, including the lesson we know to hold the greatest importance in her world view.

 

WH

And she(Nynaeve) had not been put through the lessons that what must be endured, could be endured.

That was apparently tossed out the window in this scene.

[skalors3]

Guys, it's not about Cads acting out of character or acting the way we wouldn't expect. If the scene were written well then she could have done whatever in the hell Brandon/RJ had in mind for her and it would have felt natural. The problem is that it was poorly written and an example of Brandon writing a scene that is event driven rather than character driven. He knew suchandsuch had to happen so he stacked all the characters up, tossed them into the scene, had them spout their lines off, and put some icing on top. Same thing happens with Rand meeting Egwene at the White Tower.

 

When RJ wrote a scene he puts himself in that characters shoes and we would get a viewpoint from their perspective . When Brandon writes a scene he tells us what happens in that scene. The result is that when something is a bit off the norm we don't drink it in as something happening to the character or the character taking a certain action, we instead judge it as being abnormal and having something wrong with the scene.

This is an argument I can understand. I believe RJ planned for this event. I do not think it was Brandon's creation. While it doesn't read shitty to me, I can see how others could take it that way. However, that is where subjectivity comes into play.

[skalors3]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

She has something like 9 total POVs, nowhere near enough to gage her every reaction.

Nah mate, you're losing me at this point. Between RJ's notes, her povs, and they way we see her test Rand's character and plan ahead is more than enough.

 

Further see Yoniy0's post above. +1

I disagree. I think we have enough to understand her personality, but not enough to understand her completely. Certainly not enough to interpret her every reaction. To say that we do is.....wishful.

You're already moving the goal posts a bit as we are talking about this specific reaction. As fr overall we have a very good idea from all the things I referenced, including the lesson we know to hold the greatest importance in her world view.

 

WH

And she(Nynaeve) had not been put through the lessons that what must be endured, could be endured.

That was apparently tossed out the window in this scene.

You cannot make that claim unless you read this scene from Cads POV.

[MarkDiLillo]

 

Guys, it's not about Cads acting out of character or acting the way we wouldn't expect. If the scene were written well then she could have done whatever in the hell Brandon/RJ had in mind for her and it would have felt natural. The problem is that it was poorly written and an example of Brandon writing a scene that is event driven rather than character driven. He knew suchandsuch had to happen so he stacked all the characters up, tossed them into the scene, had them spout their lines off, and put some icing on top. Same thing happens with Rand meeting Egwene at the White Tower.

 

When RJ wrote a scene he puts himself in that characters shoes and we would get a viewpoint from their perspective . When Brandon writes a scene he tells us what happens in that scene. The result is that when something is a bit off the norm we don't drink it in as something happening to the character or the character taking a certain action, we instead judge it as being abnormal and having something wrong with the scene.

This is an argument I can understand. I believe RJ planned for this event. I do not think it was Brandon's creation. While it doesn't read shitty to me, I can see how others could take it that way. However, that is where subjectivity comes into play.

 

 

I agree, but I feel like RJ didn't specify details.  He just left notes that said something along the lines of "Tam leaves room and confronts Cadsuane and manages to show her how her hard nosed tactics do not always work and she actually is a bully sometimes."

[skalors3]

@Mark I agree that some scenes were like that, while others were not. I may be more apt to crticize something if I had actual access to the materials left behind. However, we don't.

[Suttree]

Perhaps the most pertinent part...

 

But people don't change who they are; even at your worst, you only act on your less positive qualities. For Cadsuane, that's her bossiness, perhaps her difficulty to trust people (such as, she might shot Nynaeve down just because, without considering the merits of her ideas). Becoming someone who would use the Power to keep from hearing the truth, and on a defenceless man, well, that's a whole other thing.

Skalors at this point people keep providing evidence supporting our view. Perhaps you would be better served showing anything to support her character changing and reaction here.

[Suttree]

@BFG

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 29th, 1998

TPOD Signing Report - Kevin Bartlett (Paraphrased)

KEVIN BARTLETT

In The Dragon Reborn, when Rand encountered the lady merchant and her soldiers and slaughtered the whole bunch, did he have a good reason for doing so? Were they all really Darkfriends? Was that eleventh man really a Gray Man, or did Rand just count wrong?

ROBERT JORDAN

He said that it's not supposed to be clear to the reader exactly what is going on. What is supposed to be clear is that there was definitely a Gray Man in the party. But whether or not Rand knew that before he lopped off their heads, we're not supposed to know. It's supposed to be unclear whether Rand is just very observant, or whether he's on the brink of madness.

FOOTNOTE

Clearly Rand didn't notice the Gray Man until after everyone was dead: "He had been sure there were only ten men, but eleven men knelt in that line, one of them without armor of any sort but with a dagger still gripped in his hand." Rand didn't even appear to notice that it was a Gray Man.

RJ had subtly set the stage for Rands growing madness, megalomania and darkness. He just didn't get a chance to dive off the deep. The results woul have been spectacular.

[Manscher]

We do Suttree? With how a person react in real life. Remember my comment about seeing her above human emotions? You all seem to deny the fact that Cadsuane would have such a basic human reaction as to lash out aggressively.

[MarkDiLillo]

Ya I agree...I feel like the culmination of RJ's work would have been revealed if he had been able to write Dark Rand and his final step into madness.  It's a real shame that he didn't get to show us what he was envisioning because I feel like it would have been spectacular.

[Suttree]

We do Suttree? With how a person react in real life. Remember my comment about seeing her above human emotions? You all seem to deny the fact that Cadsuane would have such a basic human reaction as to lash out aggressively.

See YoniyO's comments and all those I made. If you want to make the argument that all the evidence of her reactions and values she thinks are most important get tossed out the window in that paragraph that's fine. It's jut not very convincing and you would be far better served finding any shred of evidence in world to support it. Well "anything can happen she snapped" is not compelling evidence, especially for someone who literally has already faced ending the world without blinking.

[Manscher]

 

 

 

We do Suttree? With how a person react in real life. Remember my comment about seeing her above human emotions? You all seem to deny the fact that Cadsuane would have such a basic human reaction as to lash out aggressively.

See YoniyO's comments and all those I made. If you want to make the argument that all the evidence and values she thinks are most important get tossed out the window in that paragraph that's fine. It's jut not very convincing and you would be far better served finding anywhere of evidence in world to support it. Well "anything can happen" she snapped is not compelling evidence for someone who literally has already faced ending the world without blinking.

Evidence? Fine. Some years ago I did my draft period in the army(semi mandatory thing in Denmark). During a field exercise, perhaps one of the calmest and most down to earth guys in our platoon, completely exploded and began pushing our Lieutenant while screaming and yelling over a rather menial thing. Why? Because we've had gone for nearly 3 days without sleep or food, in freaking winter rain.

 

So yes, people do lash out in ways that is not normal to them if they are pushed hard enough. Cadsuane is no exception, no matter how awesome she is.

 

And why she would reach for the Power? Instincts, it's in a Channelers instinct to reach out with the Source, and using the Power to punish somebody isn't beyond Cadsuane, she has used it as a whip on Rand to make him behave properly, doing something similar to Rands dad isn't that far fetched.

[skalors3]

 

 

 

We do Suttree? With how a person react in real life. Remember my comment about seeing her above human emotions? You all seem to deny the fact that Cadsuane would have such a basic human reaction as to lash out aggressively.

See YoniyO's comments and all those I made. If you want to make the argument that all the evidence and values she thinks are most important get tossed out the window in that paragraph that's fine. It's jut not very convincing and you would be far better served finding anywhere of evidence in world to support it. Well "anything can happen" she snapped is not compelling evidence for someone who literally has already faced ending the world without blinking.

She didn't face anything like she faced in this scene. She is a rejected failure at this point, then she fails again, and then has someone rubbing that failure in her face. I think the scene highlights how much stress she is really under. Just like that whole section (to include VOG) highlights how close they actually came to ruin. Everything was at a tipping point.

 

When Rand was injured she was in her element, and like any soldier with andrenaline rushing, she performed better. This is a far different matter, and her last ditch effort failed.

 

*Edit

 

I don't think people have provided any evidence. I think they have provided evidence about Cads character, but nothing to suggest that she is above this reaction.

[BFG]

Thanks Sutt - I'm going to have to try to dive in to the interviews to find the one I'm thinking of - explaining why their's so little of Rand in DR, will possibly re-raise if and when I do.

[Suttree]

As I said "evidence" in world. You've just presented an argument which would be considered an "anecdotal fallacy" in trying to support your view.

 

As for the rest it most certainly has never been Cads instinct to reach out with the source, quite the opposite and that is the point. In the instance of Rand her use was deliberate and only done after a count to three over a fair period of time. Yet another example of her being very methodical in her actions.

 

I'm enjoying the conversation but I really must insist you start pulling quotes to show this is something she would be likely to do.

[skalors3]

@Suttree Lol, if I cared enough, I would. We'll talk again when, or if, RJs notes are ever released.

[Ryan52]

 

 

 

  Rand post-VoG was almost a new character entirely given his integrated memories so a lot of people feel like he nailed it, but I feel like that's where he really messed up.  Rand wasn't supposed to feel like a new character post-VoG; he was supposed to be the good ol' Rand we knew and loved from the first couple books...just with an acceptance of LTT's memories.

 

 

 

I would say this statement here shows a pretty large bias in your thinking and approach to the books, assuming you know how x and y was supposed to unfold therefore you cannot enjoy what is actually written.  How is Rand integrating past lives and finally accepting and coming to peace with his role as the Messiah supposed to return him to the Rand of the first couple books?  

[skalors3]

Now, if you had asked for scenes where RJ himself wrote a character performing in an unexpected manner late in the series then I may be inclined to take a few minutes in the next few days to demonstrate that characters do not always follow a set path per the personalities established for them.

[Manscher]

See, I think that is the issue Suttree, it seems like you wont accept any sort of character behaviour unless the notes or texts that RJ wrote explicitly says so. While me and Skalors3 argue that, Cadsuane, as a human being, isn't above such actions. It isn't something that we can prove through the text, because we frankly don't have enough knowledge about her at all.

The closest thing we can come to it, is her thoughts about her being disabused of certain notions by that Wilder right after attaining her shawl, which proves that she wasn't always this flawless. As I've lend out my books to a friend, I can't really look up the correct quote regarding this.

[Suttree]

The issue is presenting logical fallacies doesnt help your argument and certainly isnt evidenece. Also I've already provided that quote about "what must be endured, can be endured" as it is central to her world view. Other people have shown how huge a change of character this would be, yet others have shown RJ's notes which back our view, you yourself provided an example of her being methodical and thoughtful before using the power as a last resort. The evidence is all there, it has been provided many times, some of it here and all of it in those old threads. You keep coming back to "well she's human and anything can happen no matter how out of character". I'm sorry but that isn't nearly good enough.

[skalors3]

The issue is presenting logical fallacies doesnt help your argument and certainly isnt evidenece. Also I've already provided that quote about "what must be endured, can be endured" as it is central to her world view. Other people have shown how huge a change of character this would be, yet others have shown RJ's notes which back our view, you yourself provided an example of her being methodical and thoughtful before using the power as a last resort. The evidence is all there, it has been provided many times, some of it here and all of it in those old threads. You keep coming back to "well she's human and anything can happen no matter how out of character". I'm sorry but that isn't nearly good enough.

What must she endure with Tam? You use this quote time and time again to defend a person who has lost usefulness to her. That quote itself shows her personality. She will tolerate what must be tolerated. She never says that everything must be tolerated.

[Manscher]

I fail to see how using human behaviours as a reasoning for actions is logical fallacies. In fact, for me it seems like a rather logical conclusion to the whole situation, that she would strike out as she did. Only difference is you base your logic upon what have happened earlier in the books, while I base my logic upon general human behaviours. Mine is just as valid as yours, regardless of how inconvenient said logic is for your arguments.

 

As for the "What must be endured, can be endured", we know this is a thing she learned from the Wilder, meaning she didn't believe so before she ran into her and was taught a lesson. In other words, there was a time where she didn't believe in this in the same way.

 

We also know that in hear 300 years, there hasn't been an impossible task(Can't remember the exact quote) and she wouldn't let this one be either. Now her very last attempt failed, meaning for the first time since the Wilder, she has failed. She is brought back to a state from before she adopted that ideology.

[fionwe1987]

I was going to reply point by point, but I see that the debate has moved into absurdity again.

 

 To whoever said that Min's PoV during this doesn't matter... of course it matters! It was written by Brandon, and how he writes it and what he writes in it affects the scene and the audience's response to Cadsuane's actions. That he chose to present Cadsuane's action as yet another act of bullying (which totally destroys the arguments of those saying this is believable because Cadsuane was under stress) is precisely the problem with the scene. I've seen no one who has explained that yet.

 

As for how RJ would write mad-Rand, I always thought that the way his described his time in Vietnam, and how he became the Iceman, etc. were excellent insights into how he would portray Rand's descent. We saw flashes of that in tGS, and I really can't find it in me to blame Brandon for not doing as well as RJ, here. RJ had a lot of personal experience with this sort of thing which Brandon just doesn't have. 

 

What I was expecting from tGS, especially after the prologue, was more Graendal involvement. I was hoping to see a kind of contest. Grandal totally destroying Arad Doman with her games, converting it into a true madhouse. And saving the day... is a madman in the making. I always hoped that Rand's descent into true darkness would be around Graendal. Back when KoD came out, I thought Semirhage's plan was cracked, and she was meant to be captured. I was kind of right, in that Moridin sent her to capture Rand. I think he expected her to fail. What is significant is that she casually mentioned Graendal, almost pointing Rand towards her. And then, in the prologue, Moridin asks the Shadow's psychiatrist to give Rand mental and emotional anguish. Bring him pain...

 

So I was quite expecting Graendal to actively be driving Rand towards madness and despair. Again, we saw flashes of that, and of course the spectacular finale where Rand basically descended to Graendal's levels of manipulation and in true psychopath fashion, killed thousands of innocents with Balefire to get to his goal... and failed.

 

Frankly, I think his descent to madness would have been so much better if the whole Balefire incident was a setup by Graendal, and so when she tells Moridin she has indeed given Rand pain of heart, she would have been right, not making up a story. 

 

But whether RJ or Brandon decided otherwise, done is done.

[skalors3]

@Fionwe How is Tam calling someone a bully who reacts under stress unbelievable? People can be a bully when it is outside of their normal character. I'll find plenty of situations where RJ himself had characters acting very unexpectantly and out of character just to demonstrate how ridiculous your claim is.