Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[MarkDiLillo]

Honestly, I find that part you just quoted to be annoyingly poetic. Sure, it takes a certain type of talent to write like that but I feel like that is an intentional style difference and not indicative of quality of writing by any stretch.

[thisguy]

I like RJ's prose. It's part of what makes the books what they are. I did notice a change in voice as the story went on. I found it got tighter for the most part.

 

I agree, Satanic Verses has great prose. But, if you read the Bachman Books by Stephen King (Written under his Richard Bachman pen name), the prose isn't great. But, the roughness of it sets a tone that I love.

 

Using RJ's work as an example, I think of it as the difference between High Chant, common and whatever the other one was (I think there were three). Some stories sound better in one and some in the other.

[TootThatHorn]

Honestly, the only flaw I find in Jordans writing is a tendancy to be too descriptive. Otherwise, I would call him a master author in every sense of the word. I'm sure some others disagree, but if you compare his writing to 99% of author fiction writers it really is very good. There are other writing styles that are more direct and have a faster pace, but its important to remember pacing and other aspects are a part of the individual authors writing style and that is subjective.

What he did not have is anything above serviceable prose. There are few moments of really good writing in WoT, and they only highlight the utter lack of them elsewhere. Many places, the writing is clunky. Not what is being written, but the how of it. It wasn't ever quite as bad as Sanderson as consistently, but it was there.

 

The rest, the kind of characterization, the gentle pace (even very early in the series, WoT could never be accused of being fast paced) are more stylistic choices. I prefer how Jordan handled these compared to Sanderson, but that's a personal choice.

 

Please go into detail. I'm not trying to be a smartass either. I'd love to see examples and explanations why his prose is just average.

 

Or a link to some places where I can learn how to distinguish good/bad prose with some conrete examples.

I'll be perfectly honest here. This is one of the things I can sense, but don't really have the tools to critique. I may be able to pick out random paragraphs and point to flaws and clunky sections in it, but its not going to be close to what you'll get from someone who actually does this for a living.

 

So, I'm going to leave it with saying that based on my personal reading experience, Jordan doesn't really come close to matching the prose of any number of authors. And since I can't prove it, I'm okay with that being called my opinion, and not a fact.

 

ETA: That said, just compare any of Jordan's writing with this piece. Its the start of Satanic Verses. I've always felt that it was the reason I got so into this book:

 

‘To be born again,’ sang Gibreel Farishta tumbling from the heavens, ‘first you have to die. Ho ji! Ho ji! To land upon the bosomy earth, first one needs to fly. Tat-taa! Taka-thun! How to ever smile again, if first you won’t cry? How to win the darling’s love, mister, without a sigh? Baba, if you want to get born again …’ Just before dawn one winter’s morning, New Year’s Day or thereabouts, two real, full-grown, living men fell from a great height, twenty-nine thousand and two feet, towards the English Channel, without benefit of parachutes or wings, out of a clear sky.

 

‘I tell you, you must die, I tell you, I tell you,’ and thusly and so beneath a moon of alabaster until a loud cry crossed the night, ‘To the devil with your tunes,’ the words hanging crystalline in the iced white night, ‘in the movies you only mimed to playback singers, so spare me these infernal noises now.’

 

Gibreel, the tuneless soloist, had been cavorting in moonlight as he sang his impromptu gazal, swimming in air, butterfly-stroke, breast-stroke, bunching himself into a ball, spreadeagling himself against the almost-infinity of the almost-dawn, adopting heraldic postures, rampant, couchant, pitting levity against gravity. Now he rolled happily towards the sardonic voice.

 

Jordan never wrote like that. Not everyone can, of course. And nor does everyone have to. But in my head, there's this perfect version of WoT, where Jordan's ability at storytelling is matched to the lyrical beauty of Rushdie's prose, or even Dickens's.

 

Kudos if that is the style that you enjoy, that didn't do it for me though. Far too many adjectives, way too many commas, it kept it from flowing well. Seemed like words were crammed in unnecessarily. Those things made it difficult to read it through without feeling like I was hitting speed bumps. The bolded part got my head going on the Door's Alabama Song too lol.

 

Edit: My biggest thing is that I didn't expect BS to do it as good as RJ, but I would have expected him to do it LIKE RJ. Some of it is just jarring, and doesn't seem to fit in to the series, there are literary devices and what not pointed out by others that are missing; even seeing Elayne address Egwene the way she did in private didn't seem right, but I don't know, maybe its just a way to show the shift in roles, but I think about Moiraine and Siuan together. It wasn't bad but it wasn't great.

[The Fisher King]

I'm sorry Fionwe, but Jordan wrote stunningly beautiful prose and his structural mechanics of lliterary wring and grammatical turn of phrase were masterful - this can not be argued. It would be like arguing that Michael Jordan was not a good basketball player. I'm afraid we all have to agree to say Case CLOSED on THAT one, lol.

 

 

Fish

[fionwe1987]

Honestly, I find that part you just quoted to be annoyingly poetic. Sure, it takes a certain type of talent to write like that but I feel like that is an intentional style difference and not indicative of quality of writing by any stretch.

Oh the poetry isn't what I'm talking about. That is definitely a stylistic choice. But notice how vivid the description is, and how well it sets the atmosphere of whimsy. And that's what you usually miss with Jordan. There's no real atmosphere, most of the time. He does do it well at points, but mostly, its entirely absent. In WoT, we have to be told how a character feels, told what the mood is. Great prose can overcome that. Simply by word choice for descriptions, by the "patter" of the sentences, the reader gets a sense of what is going on.

 

And Fisher, can you provide any instance of this stunningly beautiful prose, this masterful execution of grammer? Not being whimsical here. Really curious as to what you think are instances of these in the series.

 

PS: I'm finding it weird to be at this end of the conversation, frankly. I'm usually at the end of saying Jordan isn't that terrible. His sentences don't make my head hurt. Nor are they memorable, or readable just for their beauty and not their content. But feel free to prove me wrong with examples Fisher King.

[fionwe1987]

I like RJ's prose. It's part of what makes the books what they are. I did notice a change in voice as the story went on. I found it got tighter for the most part.

 

I agree, Satanic Verses has great prose. But, if you read the Bachman Books by Stephen King (Written under his Richard Bachman pen name), the prose isn't great. But, the roughness of it sets a tone that I love.

 

Using RJ's work as an example, I think of it as the difference between High Chant, common and whatever the other one was (I think there were three). Some stories sound better in one and some in the other.

I can agree with that. Its just that there are certain points in the story where "High Chant" is indeed called for, but never really put in. I would have loved it, say, if we got a good turn of prose describing the first time someone channels saidin cleansed. Something that evokes the true sense of awe and disbelief that must go with a change in reality itself. This is an evil of 3000 years, removed, cleansed, banished. It is a huge, life altering event for a thousand men, something that changes the course of civilization. And it came unlooked for. Yet Jordan didn't do it. He didn't communicate the wonder of it. There's rich material here that would be enhanced by lovely prose.

[fionwe1987]

Kudos if that is the style that you enjoy, that didn't do it for me though. Far too many adjectives, way too many commas, it kept it from flowing well. Seemed like words were crammed in unnecessarily. Those things made it difficult to read it through without feeling like I was hitting speed bumps. The bolded part got my head going on the Door's Alabama Song too lol.

Its primarily descriptive, so obviously it will be full of adjectives. Any number of RJ's descriptive paragraphs are filled with adjectives. Only, those adjectives tend to be used repeatedly, and there's never much flow to them.

 

Edit: My biggest thing is that I didn't expect BS to do it as good as RJ, but I would have expected him to do it LIKE RJ. Some of it is just jarring, and doesn't seem to fit in to the series, there are literary devices and what not pointed out by others that are missing; even seeing Elayne address Egwene the way she did in private didn't seem right, but I don't know, maybe its just a way to show the shift in roles, but I think about Moiraine and Siuan together. It wasn't bad but it wasn't great.

Yup. That thing seemed really off, especially since Egwene made a point of making a distinction between the Amyrlin meeting the Queen and a secret meeting with none of the attendant formalities. Yet, the moment she enters, she thinks of her as "the Queen"?

 

And didn't Egwene specifically request that in private, they don't call her Mother (except for Nynaeve)? And why would Elayne start kissing her ring in private now, when she hasn't ever done it for books and books. What, becoming the Queen of two nations made her suddenly more humble in front of her friend?

[TootThatHorn]

Kudos if that is the style that you enjoy, that didn't do it for me though. Far too many adjectives, way too many commas, it kept it from flowing well. Seemed like words were crammed in unnecessarily. Those things made it difficult to read it through without feeling like I was hitting speed bumps. The bolded part got my head going on the Door's Alabama Song too lol.

Its primarily descriptive, so obviously it will be full of adjectives. Any number of RJ's descriptive paragraphs are filled with adjectives. Only, those adjectives tend to be used repeatedly, and there's never much flow to them.

 

Edit: My biggest thing is that I didn't expect BS to do it as good as RJ, but I would have expected him to do it LIKE RJ. Some of it is just jarring, and doesn't seem to fit in to the series, there are literary devices and what not pointed out by others that are missing; even seeing Elayne address Egwene the way she did in private didn't seem right, but I don't know, maybe its just a way to show the shift in roles, but I think about Moiraine and Siuan together. It wasn't bad but it wasn't great.

Yup. That thing seemed really off, especially since Egwene made a point of making a distinction between the Amyrlin meeting the Queen and a secret meeting with none of the attendant formalities. Yet, the moment she enters, she thinks of her as "the Queen"?

 

And didn't Egwene specifically request that in private, they don't call her Mother (except for Nynaeve)? And why would Elayne start kissing her ring in private now, when she hasn't ever done it for books and books. What, becoming the Queen of two nations made her suddenly more humble in front of her friend?

 

Yes her calling her mother in private and then casually disagreeing with her regarding Rand's plans for the fate of the world seemed odd.

[MarkDiLillo]

Honestly, I find that part you just quoted to be annoyingly poetic. Sure, it takes a certain type of talent to write like that but I feel like that is an intentional style difference and not indicative of quality of writing by any stretch.

Oh the poetry isn't what I'm talking about. That is definitely a stylistic choice. But notice how vivid the description is, and how well it sets the atmosphere of whimsy. And that's what you usually miss with Jordan. There's no real atmosphere, most of the time. He does do it well at points, but mostly, its entirely absent. In WoT, we have to be told how a character feels, told what the mood is. Great prose can overcome that. Simply by word choice for descriptions, by the "patter" of the sentences, the reader gets a sense of what is going on.

 

And Fisher, can you provide any instance of this stunningly beautiful prose, this masterful execution of grammer? Not being whimsical here. Really curious as to what you think are instances of these in the series.

 

PS: I'm finding it weird to be at this end of the conversation, frankly. I'm usually at the end of saying Jordan isn't that terrible. His sentences don't make my head hurt. Nor are they memorable, or readable just for their beauty and not their content. But feel free to prove me wrong with examples Fisher King.

 

For the record, I am not arguing against you at this point. I am just honestly trying to figure out why RJ is thought to have average prose when I personally find it to be great. I am not a literary master though nor do I retend to be so I'm trying to actually learn here.

 

I do find your example to be a poor one from my perspective though. Maybe in context it works better...idk. If you have more I'd love to read them.

[Suttree]

I'm sorry Fionwe, but Jordan wrote stunningly beautiful prose and his structural mechanics of lliterary wring and grammatical turn of phrase were masterful - this can not be argued. It would be like arguing that Michael Jordan was not a good basketball player. I'm afraid we all have to agree to say Case CLOSED on THAT one, lol.

 

 

Fosh

 

Fish just to be clear you are talking in genre correct? RJ was a great fantasy author but he doesn't hold up once you start talking about some of the greats. I love RJ but once you start getting into authors such as McCarthy, DeLillo and Pynchon its just a whole nother level. Just being realistic here.

[MarkDiLillo]

Explain please in detail. Educate us on why some of those other authors are so much better in their writing style if it is not just personal and public opinion.

[fionwe1987]

For the record, I am not arguing against you at this point. I am just honestly trying to figure out why RJ is thought to have average prose when I personally find it to be great. I am not a literary master though nor do I retend to be so I'm trying to actually learn here.

That's fine. Nor am I. But can you, say, quote a memorable paragraph from RJ's work that you feel is a good representative of his great prose?

I do find your example to be a poor one from my perspective though. Maybe in context it works better...idk. If you have more I'd love to read them.

You think it is poorer prose than RJ's? And there's not much context to give in the start of a book.

 

Here's the start of "Under Heaven" by Guy Gavriel Kay. Its a fantasy novel, so closer to home.

 

Amid the ten thousand noises and the jade-and-gold and the whirling dust of Xinan, he had often stayed awake all night, among friends, drinking siced wine in the North District with the courtesans.

 

They would listen to flute or pipa music and declaim poetry, test each other with jibes and quotes, sometimes find a private room with a scented, silken woman, before weaving unsteadily home after the dawn drums sounded curfew's end, to sleep away the day instead of studying.

 

Here in the mountains, alone in hard, clear air by the waters of Kuala Nor, far to the west of the imperial city, beyond the borders of the empire, even, Tai was in a narrow bed by darkfall, under the first brilliant stars, and awake at sunrise.

 

In spring and summer the birds woke him. This was a place where thousands upon thousands nested noisily: fishhawks and cormorants, wild geese and cranes. The geese made him think of friends far away. Wild geese were a symbol of absence: in poetry, in life. Cranes were fidelity, another matter.

 

Notice how the transition from description to personal thoughts is smoother here than it usually is in Jordan's writing. What is described is not just the physical reality of Tai's current life, it serves as a contrast to the past he's remembering, and also a gateway to his thoughts.

 

I'm not saying this is the most beautiful piece of writing or anything. But its does its job far more elegantly than RJ's prose usually does, though there's more room for doubt in this example, I guess.

[The Fisher King]

I was being a bit tongue oooooooooh so firmly in cheek, yes. Especially with the "Case Closed" remark. But, in all seriousness, I have always felt like the technical aspects of Jordan's writing were unfairly underrated and were in fact very, very good. It was someone here recently who pointed out one of his greatest narrative strengths - skillfully interweaving dialogue with excellent internal prose. Jordan was good at many aspects of "writing" yet seems to only get credit for being a good "story teller."

 

 

Fish

[fionwe1987]

I'm sorry Fionwe, but Jordan wrote stunningly beautiful prose and his structural mechanics of lliterary wring and grammatical turn of phrase were masterful - this can not be argued. It would be like arguing that Michael Jordan was not a good basketball player. I'm afraid we all have to agree to say Case CLOSED on THAT one, lol.

 

 

Fosh

 

Fish just to be clear you are talking in genre correct? RJ was a great fantasy author but he doesn't hold up once you start talking about some of the greats. I love RJ but once you start getting into authors such as McCarthy, DeLillo and Pynchon its just a whole nother level. Just being realistic here.

Funny, I was just about to put in the opening paragraphs from Gravity's Rainbow. Then I decided to go to someone genre who I consider a better prose stylist than RJ.

 

And Mark: when you read WoT, have there been many (any) instances where you've said to yourself: what a beautiful/unusual way this is to describe such and such a thing? Something that sticks, and really evokes what is being described in your mind?

 

Here's Pynchon, in Gravity's Rainbow, describing a train ride during the bombing of London in World War 2:

 

Inside the carriage, which is built on several levels, he sits in velvetten darkness, with nothing to smoke, feeling metal nearer and farther rub and connect, steam escaping in puffs, a vibration in the carriage's frame, a poising, an uneasiness, all the others pressed in around, feeble ones, second sheep, all out of luck and time: drunks, old veterans still in shock from ordinance 20 years obsolete, hustlers in city clothes, derelicts, exhausted women with more children than it seems could belong to anyone, stacked about among the rest of the things to be carried out to salvation. Only the nearer faces are visible at all, and at that only as half-silvered images in a view finder, green-stained VIP faces remembered behind bulletproof windows speeding through the city...

 

The carriage, as seen and experienced by the character, is laid out so well. Look at how the motion of the train is described: metal nearer and farther rub and connect, steam escaping in puffs, a vibration in the carriage's frame- and how that segues into the discomfort of being packed in with strangers of all sorts. The discomfort is partially attributable to the motion of the train. But the author doesn't have to lay that out clunkily. Instead, that fact is evoked by the way the sentence is constructed.

 

All he's really doing is giving you brief impressions of things seen and felt in the train, yet that very organically merges to give you the feeling of quiet misery, lack of hope, cynicism...

 

It would have taken a lot more time for Jordan to convey the same information. And it would have come out clunky.

 

That's the difference. At least, in the limited way I can explain this.

[fionwe1987]

I was being a bit tongue oooooooooh so firmly in cheek, yes. Especially with the "Case Closed" remark. But, in all seriousness, I have always felt like the technical aspects of Jordan's writing were unfairly underrated and were in fact very, very good. It was someone here recently who pointed out one of his greatest narrative strengths - skillfully interweaving dialogue with excellent internal prose. Jordan was good at many aspects of "writing" yet seems to only get credit for being a good "story teller."

 

 

Fish

I pointed that out. And Jordan is good in that only compared to Sanderson. Otherwise, he's competent, but still needs to lay out way too much that he should instead imply. And that's okay. He wasn't aiming for that kind of writing. But lets not pretent Jordan is the pinnacle of writing while criticizing Brandon, which was the point Wert was making.

[The Fisher King]

I think everyone here understands that.

 

 

Fish

[MarkDiLillo]

Ok, I see what you're saying (though I actually dislike those examples and could put a load of criticism on them for lack of clarity amongst other things) and you've made your point. I am actually beginning to think that High Chant, Plain Chant, and Common Chant that appear in WoT are allusions to this exact thing. Maybe it's just coincidence though...

 

Either way, I think that it is clear that RJ was aiming for the type of writing that he was using intentionally and in this specific "plain chant" style he uses he is a master. I do see what you're talking about when you refer to some of those examples though, I just dont think it particularly fits all kinds of stories or writing told. You could change WoT to something similar to that, but it would turn out horrible IMO despite the fact that certain scenes could have been better. The entire tone of the writing changes when you switch to that kind of writing.

 

Regardless, I think it is an intentional method of writing that was chosen and thusly it is not fair to compare the style of writing RJ uses to those more flowery and poetic styles. Those styles have their strengths, but they also have their weaknesses. In the case of Brandon Sanderson, I think it is fair to say that you are comparing apples to apples when you put him alongside RJ. To compare RJ to the authors you quoted I think is more comparing apples to oranges becuse their entire approach to the writing is distinctly different and the messages they convey to the reader are intentionally designed to be different.

[MarkDiLillo]

A perfect example of the difference between some of what you quoted and the style of writing that RJ used:

 

In the writings that you quoted, the major message conveyed is the atmosphere and the scene. The goal of the text is to make sure the scene is painted in the readers mind. In WoT, the focus and the goal of the writing is not to paint the scenes to the reader...but it is instead character oriented. The goal is to put you in the shoes of the characters PoV and to connect the reader with the character. The sense of atmosphere and realism that your quotes provide put the reader in the environment and lets them envision the scene as if they were standing there. In WoT, the writing doesn't put you in that persons shoes as much as it connects you with that character as if you're standing over their shoulders and are in their head. I'm probably doing a poor job of explaining this, but I feel like its an important difference that is overlooked.

 

The beautiful and poetic prose you quoted connects the reader with the scene and environment, but it doesn't connect the reader with the character as much as WoT-style writing does.

[fionwe1987]

Ok, I see what you're saying (though I actually dislike those examples and could put a load of criticism on them for lack of clarity amongst other things) and you've made your point. I am actually beginning to think that High Chant, Plain Chant, and Common Chant that appear in WoT are allusions to this exact thing. Maybe it's just coincidence though...

 

Either way, I think that it is clear that RJ was aiming for the type of writing that he was using intentionally and in this specific "plain chant" style he uses he is a master. I do see what you're talking about when you refer to some of those examples though, I just dont think it particularly fits all kinds of stories or writing told. You could change WoT to something similar to that, but it would turn out horrible IMO despite the fact that certain scenes could have been better. The entire tone of the writing changes when you switch to that kind of writing.

 

Regardless, I think it is an intentional method of writing that was chosen and thusly it is not fair to compare the style of writing RJ uses to those more flowery and poetic styles. Those styles have their strengths, but they also have their weaknesses. In the case of Brandon Sanderson, I think it is fair to say that you are comparing apples to apples when you put him alongside RJ. To compare RJ to the authors you quoted I think is more comparing apples to oranges becuse their entire approach to the writing is distinctly different and the messages they convey to the reader are intentionally designed to be different.

This is not true of GGK. His writing is neither flowery nor poetic. I'd argue Phynchon's writing is neither, as well. Rushdie is clearly poetic.

 

Pynchon's style is actually very suited to WoT. His work is also dense and complicated, plotwise, and his descriptive style would slot into WoT flawlessly. And any of these writing styles can be adapted to WoT without changing its tone. Several of these authors actually do change their tone, a lot, while keeping their style more or less similar. Don't be confused by the whimsy in the Rushdie extract and think its always his tone. He's very capable of being grim or serious.

 

As for the PoV issue... you're right that the scenes I quoted were specifically descriptive as opposed to representing PoV. That's because I chose from the beginning of the first chapter of these books so that context would not be an issue. I can assure you, all of them have used the same third person limited perspective that RJ does, and the characters PoVs they write, and the stream of consciousness you read are as much better than RJ's as their descriptions are better than his when in third person omniscient. In fact, GGK's extract I provided, we're in third person limited right from the get go. Take this other example from his book, The Lions of Al Rassan (which I highly recommend, by the way):

 

 

Always remember that they come from the desert.

Back in the days before Jehane had begun her own practice, in that time when her father could still talk to her, and teach, he had offered those words to her over and again, speaking of the ruling Asharites among whom they dwelt on sufferance, and labored—as the scattered tribes of the Kindath did everywhere—to create a small space in the world of safety and a measure of repose.

"But we have the desert in our own history, don't we?" she could remember asking once, the question thrown back as a challenge. She had never been an easy pupil, not for him, not for anyone.

"We passed through," Ishak had replied in the beautifully modulated voice. "We sojourned for a time, on our way. We were never truly a people of the dunes. They are. Even here in Al-Rassan, amid gardens and water and trees, the Star-born are never sure of the permanence of such things. They remain in their hearts what they were when they first accepted the teachings of Ashar among the sands. When you are in doubt as to how to understand one of them, remind yourself of this and your way will likely be made clear."

In those days, despite her fractiousness, Jehane's father's words had been as text and holy guide for her. On another occasion, after she had complained for the third time during a tedious morning preparing powders and infusions, Ishak had mildly cautioned that a doctor's life might often be dull, but was not invariably so, and there would be times when she found herself longing for quiet routine.

 

She was to sharply call to mind both of these teachings before she finally fell asleep at the end of the day that would long afterwards be known in Fezana—with curses, and black candles burned in memory—as The Day of the Moat.

It was a day that would be remembered all her life by Jehane bet Ishak, the physician, for reasons over and above those of her fellow citizens in that proud, notoriously rebellious town: she lost her urine flask in the afternoon, and a part of her heart forever before the moons had set.

The flask, for reasons of family history, was not a trivial matter.

 

 

That's exactly the way Jordan uses PoVs. I will note that Jordan manages to write like this, at times. This is not so clearly above his skill as to be inarguable. But it is technically more skilled writing than the average PoV you'll find in WoT. I can give more examples, if you like.

[The Fisher King]

As a more clear example of the differences between Jordan's more sophisticated prose in WOT and Sanderson's ah...simpler...touch, compare and contrast the following deleted scene from Towers of Midnight I found. The first is Jordan's version, the second is Brandon's ''reworking'' of the same scene:

 

1 Lan could feel the harsh beauty of Malkier in his bones and breathed it in. He knew its dangers well, though and kept a vigilant guard at night so as not to have any foul miscreants come upon him unawares.

 

2 Lan was a dude that always thought Malkier was a pretty cool place to chill at. It could get rough, though, so he kept his eyes peeled for any gang bangers that might try to jump him from behind.

 

 

Fish

[Bluedust9]

I love reading the tears here. Cry over your work of art babies, maybe wake up to the real world and realize the real author has been eaten by worms and you won't get his own book. And Luckers I agree that Brandon being Mormon and wanting you to die and all is awful, but your clear bias is just annoying. Yes Mormons hate gay people, we know.

[Bluedust9]

AS an aside I hope you are not pointing to Ch. 1 from AMol as on of the "best chapters of the wheel of time to date". It offers decent fan gratification(blatantly so in the way Egwene is redeemed) but the flaws in both plot and prose have already been well addressed.

It's an absolutely amazing chapter, from top to bottom.

 

-It opens with one of the best "Wind" openings to take, bringing the reader that might have read TOM a year or more ago and who isn't rereading up to date on things that matter - the world is dying, Caemlyn is burning, refugees everywhere not even knowing where they're marching to. There's some absolutely lovely description in there - the section of Taren Ferry, contrasting the cobbled streets and redstone foundations with the feral dogs and the smoke that had long since stopped rising is an example of great writing. The end of the "wind" section provides a neat beat of contrast; after all of these images of fear, destruction and decay we find Rand laughing. Not in a crazy way, but in a warm way, laughing with a friend. An island of life in the dying world.

 

-The next section has Rand subtly comparing himself to Perrin. "Strange, how much about a man could change while his core remained exactly the same." We get a callback to Lanfear's appearance, and we don't have Rand obsess about it - but then as his thoughts return to it he asks Perrin to go for a walk with him. We get that Rand is really trying very hard not to fall into old habits, and that he wants to act like the person he knows he should act like. Meanwhile, Perrin is more comfortable around Rand now than he's been in a while, but he's still nervous to some extent - note how he puts his hand on Mah'alleinir as he walks next to Rand. Whether nervous of Rand or of the situation of the world in general, Perrin isn't as relaxed as he seems.

 

-There's some info drop, in a way that doesn't feel forced. They're waking, they hear blacksmiths working in the distance. With the Last Battle on the way, power forged weapons are being made, and there's a small personal anecdote about the Maiden's. It's an item that makes sense to add, and this is as good a time as any to add it. That the smiths are working well into the night hints at the urgency of the matter, and when factored in with the beginning of the prologue and the power that creation seems to have in turning back the Dark One's touch, it seems like a potentially significant item lightly touched.

 

-The info drop continues with Perrin and Rand mussing about the same things, coming at them from different directions. Rand thinks about the taste of seawater, and how he's learned to accept the internal changes he's faced as a part of him. Perrin sees the outward trappings, the fancy clothes and the external material changes. This is also a reflection of the nature of the two characters, how Perrin is very much a physical character and sees things in those terms, while Rand is much more of a philosopher, and sees the internal changes as the significant ones. Rand doesn't care about the fancy clothes. Whatever clothes he wears, he'd still be a king - which harkens back to the Eye of the World and The Great Hunt, where people remark that even if you put Rand in rags he'd still dominate the room. Meanwhile, Perrin can't really see his internal changes; though his core is the same, the changes he sees are that he's wearing nicer threads and has a big hammer that's totally impractical for smithing. Rand then gives a classic Aes Sedai answer, and Perrin nods - I think that if we were in his POV at the time, we'd probably get a bit about how the blacksmith's puzzle just clicked together - and Rand has basically answered that yes, he does believe in the changes.

 

-Rand's dream analogy shows clear allusion to Perrin's wolf dream; again, we know Perrin, and we can think of the lines of thought that he's going through when he sounds "oddly reserved." For the first time, we get a reasonably full and clear explanation for what it's like for Rand, remembering being Lews Therin, and the way it's worked from Rand's point of view shows that he's still worried about being considered mad. There's also a fascinating bit about how Rand considers the "mantle of the Dragon Reborn," that it's not a mask or an act, it's a part of himself that he's accepted. In earlier books, this sort of thought would have been accompanied by the thought that duty is heavier than a mountain, death lighter than a feather, but I don't think that the omission of that statement is in any way unintentional - Rand's viewpoint now has moved beyond that sentiment, he's no longer a death seeker longing to lay down his burden.

 

-We get a few hints about how the Dark One will be resealed. Rand's voice here sounds bang-on where Rand's voice sounded around The Fires of Heaven or early Lord of Chaos; he thinks that he sees a way forward, he knows it's a gamble and he's not letting the issue rest easily in his mind, but he's going to take the chance.

 

-There's some light humor and information dump with Balwer, who is indignantly in character, darkened slightly by Rand's internal monologue and statement about secrets kept close to his heart - leading the reader to wonder what secret is he talking about? Is it something we know already, like what happened on Dragonmount or his visit with Lanfear? Or is it how he intends to seal up the Dark One? Or is it the content of what he wants the next day? Or is it something related to his relationship with Min, Elayne and Aviendha?

 

-The quake, and Rand's response ("Rand felt it like a painful muscle spasm") show the link between the Dragon and the land, and his thought afterwards shows that his bad habits aren't entirely gone - he's just more aware of them, as he first things "I'm not ready" before correctly thinking "we're not ready." Rand has had a habit of trying to do everything himself, and that thought and correction shows that for all he's changed, his first impulse stays the same. The conclusion of Rand's interview with Balwer has the man standing taller - we see the cynicism creeping in at the edges of Rand's viewpoint again, knowing how to motivate people.

 

-Rand losing track of thought at the thought he would be a father was touching, as were his mental gymnastics as to why Elayne hadn't told him. He's making excuses for her, blaming himself but not placing blame on her. It's something he's done all series when confronted by actions from other people that don't fall in line with his expectations for them, he tries to rationalize or justify the action. He may be right, but this is still Rand al'Thor poking through, showing he's still very much a part of the Dragon.

 

-Egwene's letter is an interesting thing, because she's not certain if she'll send it. This makes sense for the reason Egwene provides - organizing her thoughts - but a reader has to be aware that the unsent letter can become a plot point, if delivered when there was no intent to see it delivered. Back in The Shadow Rising a pair of contradictory letters caused some confusion, and if Egwene makes statements in the morning that contradict the letter, problems could occur for the alliance.

 

-Use of travelling to go straight to Elayne was nice, a good example of Egwene picking up on the great game and using the tools available to her in an intelligent and practical way. There's a line in here that did fall really flat for me, "Siuan would have killed for this ability." I have no doubt that similar expressions have been used throughout history from every civilization, but it's not really an expression that sits well with the common word choice in the Wheel of Time.

 

-The letter from Egwene to Rand shows a lot of how Egwene has changed but remains the same, even without the reader not knowing the precise contents of the letter. "The tone is . . . forceful," Elayne says, and Egwene responds by saying "He doesn't seem to respond to anything else." This is great work all around; Elayne is trying to be political and polite around her friend fellow ruler, making a mildly phrased suggestion to tone things back. Egwene's response shows that as intelligent as she is, she's falling into the same trap in dealing with Rand that everyone else did. Moiraine gave her the key to working well with Rand back in the Fires of Heaven, control through surrender. King Darlin did it very well. The use of force on Rand? In thirteen books, people who've tried to use force on Rand have never, ever, achieved their goals. Rand tends to respond to use of force by bringing down substantially greater force on the person trying to bully him. Those who've achieved their goals around Rand have been those who've used subtly. The reader knows that, Egwene should know that, but that inability to understand men in general and Rand in particular has been one of the major flaws of her character throughout the series.

 

-Following that, we see Egwene worrying if she can rely on Elayne, whether Elayne being smitten will interfere with her loyalties. There's also an implicit belief on Egwene's part that Andor's strongest alliance is with the White Tower, based on her personal friendship with Elayne and that Elayne is Aes Sedai. It's good to see that Egwene does recognize just how fragile the alliance is, even if she never fully articulates the thought.

 

I'm starting to run short on time, so I'll cut it short there, but you get the idea. There is a huge amount of subtle character building in this chapter, and some great language is used. There are problems with it as well - I mentioned one neologism earlier, there's also Rand saying "here's the thing" later. It's a little out of place in the rest of the writing. Overuse of ellipses was also a problem in the chapter. But the physiological aspect of where Rand is now, balancing a determination not to fall into old habits with some darkness lurking around the edges, Perrin being more comfortable in his role as a king than he realizes, Elayne showing her desire to be at the front lines and to be there with her people balanced out by finally learning some caution and agreeing to go no further than the area outside the city, and Egwene showing how much and how little she's learned, those things were all wonderful. The characterization acknowledges where the characters have been and where they currently are.

 

There are so many little things about this chapter that are great. Perrin's line about "I need to talk to Rand again," shortly after Rand drops some almost formal, Aes Sedai-sounding lines about "This day was scene, and our tests are known. We do not walk into them unaware" and Rand getting huffy about it. Rand showing some very naked calculation about how to deal with Elayne, and Perrin's disapproval. Rand and Perrin reverting back, just for a moment, to being two kids from the back end of nowhere ("Go jump in the Winespring Water"). The description of Rand's burden, as a river cutting a mountain, is very much a Jordan-esque description, neatly woven into a series of paragraphs that begin with what looks to be a AOLism, "Sure as the sea and the sky." The description of the Two Rivers camp being faintly brighter and warmer. Little things like that.

 

It's not Jordan's writing style; had Jordan been writing it we'd have greater description of the camp, perhaps some dogs running about, we'd know something about the smell of the food or decay in the air and the quality of the tents. We'd see men sharpening swords, women bustling about carrying water or fletching arrows, we'd hear about whether the ground under them was muddy or dry and cracked, we'd see some Aiel wandering about the Two River's camp in search of friends among Perrin's forces or just looking for someone to drink or trade with. We've lost that, and I do miss it. What we've gained is a greater focus on the characters themselves, their dialog and their relationships, and that's a fair trade.

 

I'm being completely serious when I say that this is one of the best chapters in the series to date, and I'm sorry for anyone who can't enjoy it like I did.

 

Why are you even bothering? You already know the answer. Some people have just latched on to a book series and made it more important than their own lives. These people will never be satisfied and should just be ignored.

[The Fisher King]

WRONG. Lots of things in WOT ''completely satisfied'' me. They include (but are not limited to):

 

1 The Eye of the world

 

2 The Great Hunt

 

3 The Shadow Rising

 

4 Fires of Heaven

 

5 Knife of Dreams

 

 

Fish

[Sid]

@ fionwe

 

I think some of it has to do with the characters he's created. Much of the story is told from the perspective of young people from a country village in the middle of nowhere. Even though they've grown a lot in the last few years on their journey, they're still rooted in the place where they began. If they all thought like this, it wouldn't quite seem realistic.

 

Some of the other characters with different backgrounds do have a different tone to them, and you can tell when you're reading someone from that different background. Perhaps not as flowery as the examples you've shown, fionwe, but I guess my stance is if Jordan's style of prose is wrong, I don't want to be right. I find it very entertaining to read, and even more the second time.

 

@ Charlie

 

thanks for your recent contributions to the thread. I think we've had enough of them for now.

[Bluedust9]

Honestly, the only flaw I find in Jordans writing is a tendancy to be too descriptive. Otherwise, I would call him a master author in every sense of the word. I'm sure some others disagree, but if you compare his writing to 99% of author fiction writers it really is very good. There are other writing styles that are more direct and have a faster pace, but its important to remember pacing and other aspects are a part of the individual authors writing style and that is subjective.

What he did not have is anything above serviceable prose. There are few moments of really good writing in WoT, and they only highlight the utter lack of them elsewhere. Many places, the writing is clunky. Not what is being written, but the how of it. It wasn't ever quite as bad as Sanderson as consistently, but it was there.

 

The rest, the kind of characterization, the gentle pace (even very early in the series, WoT could never be accused of being fast paced) are more stylistic choices. I prefer how Jordan handled these compared to Sanderson, but that's a personal choice.

 

Please go into detail. I'm not trying to be a smartass either. I'd love to see examples and explanations why his prose is just average.

 

Or a link to some places where I can learn how to distinguish good/bad prose with some conrete examples.

I'll be perfectly honest here. This is one of the things I can sense, but don't really have the tools to critique. I may be able to pick out random paragraphs and point to flaws and clunky sections in it, but its not going to be close to what you'll get from someone who actually does this for a living.

 

So, I'm going to leave it with saying that based on my personal reading experience, Jordan doesn't really come close to matching the prose of any number of authors. And since I can't prove it, I'm okay with that being called my opinion, and not a fact.

 

ETA: That said, just compare any of Jordan's writing with this piece. Its the start of Satanic Verses. I've always felt that it was the reason I got so into this book:

 

‘To be born again,’ sang Gibreel Farishta tumbling from the heavens, ‘first you have to die. Ho ji! Ho ji! To land upon the bosomy earth, first one needs to fly. Tat-taa! Taka-thun! How to ever smile again, if first you won’t cry? How to win the darling’s love, mister, without a sigh? Baba, if you want to get born again …’ Just before dawn one winter’s morning, New Year’s Day or thereabouts, two real, full-grown, living men fell from a great height, twenty-nine thousand and two feet, towards the English Channel, without benefit of parachutes or wings, out of a clear sky.

 

‘I tell you, you must die, I tell you, I tell you,’ and thusly and so beneath a moon of alabaster until a loud cry crossed the night, ‘To the devil with your tunes,’ the words hanging crystalline in the iced white night, ‘in the movies you only mimed to playback singers, so spare me these infernal noises now.’

 

Gibreel, the tuneless soloist, had been cavorting in moonlight as he sang his impromptu gazal, swimming in air, butterfly-stroke, breast-stroke, bunching himself into a ball, spreadeagling himself against the almost-infinity of the almost-dawn, adopting heraldic postures, rampant, couchant, pitting levity against gravity. Now he rolled happily towards the sardonic voice.

 

Jordan never wrote like that. Not everyone can, of course. And nor does everyone have to. But in my head, there's this perfect version of WoT, where Jordan's ability at storytelling is matched to the lyrical beauty of Rushdie's prose, or even Dickens's.

 

But Jordan is dead.

 

Thank you for putting into words my criticisms against people bitching about Brandon though, you said it best. The man is dead, not everyone can write like him, we all have our perfect version of WoT but this is what we got. Thumbs up.