Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[dwn]

There's really three types of problems that have cropped up:

 

1) In-world language irregularities like the 'bloody ashes' and 'royalty' that Fish brought up, and clumsy turns of phrase like the use of 'reports' that I mentioned earlier. These really bug people because they cause momentary breaks in immersion and could have been caught with careful editing.

 

2) Larger storytelling issues like the blunt 'tell instead of show' and 'one sentence too many' things that Luckers and others have brought up, or the Androl character discussed in another thread. These are a mixed bag--they could be author style, but given #1 it's equally likely they're partly the result of rushed writing and editing as well. It's harder to notice this sort of problem while mainlining the plot during a first read, but they do make rereads less enjoyable.

 

3) Problems that are clearly a matter of author style and tone, like Mat's characterization in TGS. I think everyone expected things like this to happen with the change in authorship, and while they're extremely off-putting, they're also understandable and forgivable for that very reason.

 

Ultimately, it's the frequent, trivial problems that make us more sensitive to the inevitable changes due to writing style--and that's too bad, because those problems should have been the easiest to correct.

 

-- dwn

[The Fisher King]

dwn. - Smashing post!!

 

 

Fish

[Mats Spare Hat]

I once coined the term 'sandertarding' as a means to describe the rationale, put forth by Sanderson, for his botching of characterizations, etc.

 

...Granted it's an inarticulate term, and if it rubbed anyone the wrong way, or if anyone wanted to label me a hater, than that's okay.

 

Since then there's been the expounding, by Sanderson himself, that when there were points where he felt as though he couldn't do that great a job, that he didn't try... I mean I understand how those who've met with, or interacted with, the man can say yeah, he's a really nice guy and it's nice that he signed on to finish the series - but to me he just openly admitted to not even putting any sort of effort into things...

 

It's a disgrace. I mean how often would anyone ever get an opportunity like such, and then just not even try? Even if your best effort ends up falling flat, you can look back and honsetly say it was the best I could do...But to not even try, even openly admit that you aren't going to, when there's obviously people rooting for you, and it's pretty obvious you yourself are a great fan of the material...

 

What a chump!

 

And then there's a point, like there was an instance regarding the messed up timeline, with characters being in two places at once or some such. Sanderson apparently 'openly castigated' the beta readers, (I think that's a Luckers-sourced insight), for that outcome... That irks the bejeasus out of me...the hell man, the hell.

 

I mean what is he, afraid to take responsibility for when something like that happens? And, at the same time he's totally alright with putting forth a lack of effort, and publicly admitting to that, into what some people might suggest is the gift of a lifetime, in having the opportunity to help finish the series?

 

BBBUUHHLLEEEEHHHHHhhhhhhhhhheeeeyyyeeaahhh... ... .. *cough

[David Selig]

"Royalty" is used three times in total in TGS and TOM. Hardly overuse...

[The Fisher King]

David...I'm sorry you didn't get a chance to read my entire post, but, in it, I clearly stated that I was using the example *comparatively* both in relation to how often "Nobility" was used in its place and in relation to how many times it itself was used total in the eleven preceeding books.

 

 

Fish

[Agitel]

There's really three types of problems that have cropped up:

 

1) In-world language irregularities like the 'bloody ashes' and 'royalty' that Fish brought up, and clumsy turns of phrase like the use of 'reports' that I mentioned earlier. These really bug people because they cause momentary breaks in immersion and could have been caught with careful editing.

 

2) Larger storytelling issues like the blunt 'tell instead of show' and 'one sentence too many' things that Luckers and others have brought up, or the Androl character discussed in another thread. These are a mixed bag--they could be author style, but given #1 it's equally likely they're partly the result of rushed writing and editing as well. It's harder to notice this sort of problem while mainlining the plot during a first read, but they do make rereads less enjoyable.

 

3) Problems that are clearly a matter of author style and tone, like Mat's characterization in TGS. I think everyone expected things like this to happen with the change in authorship, and while they're extremely off-putting, they're also understandable and forgivable for that very reason.

 

Ultimately, it's the frequent, trivial problems that make us more sensitive to the inevitable changes due to writing style--and that's too bad, because those problems should have been the easiest to correct.

 

-- dwn

 

Too be honest, I couldn't care less about the first example. Different author, get used to it.

[David Selig]

I read your previous post. Royalty" is used 6 times in the Jordan books. Hardly a significant difference, especially since it was used twice in TFOH and in WH.

 

As for "Nobility", ToM is the book in which this word is used most often.

 

More importantly, it doesn't really matter anyway. Neither of those is used in some WoT specific way by Jordan so if Sanderson favours one and Jordan another, it makes no difference unless you are really obsessive and nitpicking.

[The Fisher King]

LOL. Okay, guy...love how you don't address any of the many other "nitpicks" of mine.

 

Its all good. I got tons of ammo here to back my findings up but it'd just serve to piss you off so instead Ill just smile and nod.

 

 

Fish

[finnland]

Not to take sides but isn't simply counting times a word is used missing something? I realize the original argument by Fish was that "royalty" was overused (i.e. essentially a numbers critique) but to me the critique also includes how those words fit into the prose in a general sense. If a word is incongruous, but somehow is woven into the story skillfully, then perhaps there is less issue...? Does the reason Fish noticed the word "royalty" more often in the later books perhaps have less to do with frequency than with the manner in which the term is used? I guess he'd have to answer that - I didn't personally take notice of the term on my initial read through. I can not, however, avoid the way in which certain terms attract more notice due to the way they sit within the prose of the later books, if that makes any sense...

 

I don't know. It's just a feeling, but somehow counting the times a word is used in a certain book, no matter which author wrote it (unless it's something egregiously out-of-universe) doesn't entirely fit with the way I read books - even though yes, I recognize the original gripe was predicated strictly on numbers...

 

No disrespect intended towards anyone. No babies or llamas or puppies were harmed in the editing of this post...

[The Fisher King]

finn ...The "Royalty" thing is just ONE example among MANY. It was picked at by David who didn't even address ANY of the SEVERAL other examples.

 

People who think the critiqueing of the Sandersons books is "bashing, hating, nitpicking, obsessing etc" just could not be more wrong and don't understand true critique.

 

Don't mean you, finn.

 

But they will never admit it. Pointing out true criticisms will always be "whining and hating" by those who just need to "get over it" in these folk's opinion. These people would be happier if just left alone to blindly slurp all Sandersons slop down happily and ask for more without anyone voicing anything different that may awaken their brain and force it to actually THINK about the standard of the book they have just read.....and there are plenty of fansites on the Internet that can serve them.

 

For me...I appreciate Dragonmounts balanced and fair approach to discussing these books.

 

Ive also praised Brandon on MANY things here over the years.

 

 

Fish

 

 

Fish

[finnland]

Just for the record, my post was essentially agreeing with your critique, and expounding upon it, Fish... I was saying one reason you may have noticed the word more was not due purely to number-of-times-used, but perhaps due to the way it was situated within the text (i.e. less 'smoothly' for lack of a better term).

 

be well, all...

[The Fisher King]

Oh, I knew what you meant, finn ;)

 

 

Fish

[TheAngryDruid]

Well, I for one am glad that Brandon agreed to finish the series. And I can't imagine the stress that he has been under. And I realize that it probably was a no win situation. Nor did I really expect his writing to be as good as, or the same as, Jordan's.

 

That being said, RJ certainly had some slumps (CoT for certain, not to mention Elayne, the Kin, and Aviendha all forgetting, for almost two books, that the Kin could just link and so Elayne didn't have to give the WF's anything, for instance).

 

Still, the Matt letter in ToM really bugged me. His turn to jester, and Talmanes' were/are jarring. I loved lots of TGS (Egwene, Rand, and Nyneave especially), and even thought some of the Cadsuane chapters (Conversation with Lews Therin) were very good. The Last that Could be Done. I even enjoyed some parts of ToM (Faile's development, Hopper's death, the forging of the Hammer, Maradon, Return to Bandar Eban, Min, Avi's trip through the columns).

 

But there have just been too many jarring errors. Sulin in two places at once. Timeline errors. The Black Ajah channeling at full strength in the battle in TAR. The Verin/Mat timeline errors. Egwene apparently not thinking of any apparent hypocrisy in her criticizing Elaida or the BA hunters for a 4th oath. The gateway inconsistencies around Caemlyn. Don't know who wrote what. But these types of errors have really detracted from the last two books for me. And given the issues I have with Chapter 11 and the Talamanes pick, and even some of Leilwin's PoV (Nyneave's actions), I'm not overly optimistic for aMoL being a top tier book in the series.

 

Brandon slipping out of the character's dictum, or even the dictum of the 3rd age and using 20th century terminology, has also been jarring, but for some reason, that really hasn't affected me that much.

 

In both types of mistakes, though, Brandon is not totally to blame. Editing and Team Jordan also bear some responsibility. Yes?

 

The work ethic stuff is fairly new to me, and I don't want to get into that can of worms.

 

Still, I'm grateful for Brandon for doing it. And I'll treasure the areas that are done really well. Even with the tidbits out so far of aMoL, there have been some: the POV's from Baryd, Isam, Aviendha, and Moghedien were all very well done.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Its been a while since I've been to these forums, and I've gotta say I'm surprised to see this thread. I know they aren't perfect and they have their flaws but I was under the impression that Brandon Sanderson's WOT books were generally well received by the fan base. I did not realize that they had come under such heavy criticism. I certainly am not as avid a WOT reader as many on this site (more due to time constraints that lack of interest, I wish I did have the time to do one reread for each of the Forsaken) but overall I was pleased with Brandon's books. I knew from the start that the tone would be different and not every character would be spot on (buy why did it have to be Mat?!!). Sure they could have been better but then I've always thought there were certain things that RJ, himself could have done better. One thing in the thread that really bothers me on this thread is Brandon being criticized because he had all of Jordan's notes and has still made some mistakes. Well the fact is that RJ, like any writer, had a lot of notes, and I mean A LOT. Therefore, Brandon had a huge amount of info to sift through and sort out. Keep in mind that a writers notes often contain ideas that the writer has considered but rejected, alternate versions of how a story arc might progress (thus the possibility of Perrin taking up The Way of the Leaf). It would be very difficult for Brandon to discern which notes RJ really intend to incorporate into his story. Long story short, sifting through a writers note would a Herculean task.

[The Fisher King]

In both types of mistakes, though, Brandon is not totally to blame. Editing and Team Jordan also bear some responsibility. Yes?

 

 

This is a big one for me, too, Druid. Suttree has brought it up a lot too. Maria, Alan and Harriet have all been immersed in this series for YEARS longer than Brandon, and why they allowed some of his decisions to stand and make it into the published books has always Blown.Me.Away.

 

 

Fish

[The Fisher King]

Leopoled - you make severeal fair points. The first Sanderson Book ''TGS'' was indeed well recieved, generally, and I found that fair. Problems abounded, but for his first effort, it was fairly smooth, tight, structured and enjoyable. And in the euphoria over the news that WOT would be completed, he enjoyed a honeymoon period. Also natural.

 

IMO - The problem was, that TOM was SUCH a jarring step back from TGS in terms of quality that it really caused a stir. Then conflicting statements to the loyal fans didn't help - nor did Brandon admitting that he had quit trying to improve certain areas of weakness. Or his stubborness about how ''right'' he was on certain matters.

 

Also, you are correct in how much material he to try and construct into story, but also, all that material should have been a great RESOURCE available to him as well.

 

I like Brandon and think his writing in certain scenes of Rand, Nynaeve, Perrin, Faile, Galad and others has been stellar at times. Veins of Gold was mostly him and it was great. I enjoyed Avi's ''Way Forward Machine'' which was mostly his writing.

 

I enjoyed MOST of the prologue. BUT - Chapter 11 and Towers of Midnight left a very bad taste in my mouth.

 

 

Fish

[Agitel]

I'm not sure what's so damn horrible about the fragment of chapter 11 we have. So there's been a voice change in Mat's chapters. That's an just the reality of the situation. Mat was a very unique type of POV and character, and Sanderson's a different author, but all-in-all there's nothing wrong here. As for "BLADEMASTERS EVERYWHERE", Jordan himself said that the Seanchan had lower qualifications for being a blademaster than the westlanders have, so while not everywhere, you would expect them to potentially be more common.

[The Fisher King]

Sigh. You have to look at these things *comparatively*

 

You can't pick one Sanderson Criticism out and defend it based on TWO books! (TGS and TOM). You have to compare things like frequency and usage to the ELEVEN books that came before TGS and ESTABLISHED the world and characters. One example that I used earlier in this thread that David Selig didn't understand was ''Royalty.'' Yes, it was only used six times in TGS/TOM, but it was used only six times in the ELEVEN books/almost Eleven THOUSAND pages before. It was established that Mr Jordan preferred the characters HE gave us think of that social rank in his world as ''Nobility'' most of the time. So, WHY change it? Its unneccesary and lazy. Again, no, the word Royalty isn't a big deal, but what it IS an example of is what is a big deal to many loyal readers.

 

ts called 'Continuity' and if it is not a big deal for you, that's awesome, and I respect that. But it IS a big deal for those (and I admit I am one) who value continuity and 'canon' that has been established. And these are things that Brandon could EASILY have kept consistent with earlier books if he had WANTED to. The fact that he chose not to is what rubs many the wrong way.

 

 

Fish

[Suttree]

I'm not sure what's so damn horrible about the fragment of chapter 11 we have. So there's been a voice change in Mat's chapters. That's an just the reality of the situation. Mat was a very unique type of POV and character, and Sanderson's a different author, but all-in-all there's nothing wrong here.

 

Brandon himself admitted he got Mat wrong and needed to put more work into it and yet the very same issues that people had with Mat in TGS still feature prominently in that excerpt.

 

In addition the elaborate back stories and things like blabbing to the guard in the gate scene are flat out cringe worthy, especially given he is trying to keep a low profile. Mat is a rogue, not a jester/buffoon. It's fairly apparent at this point he just can't get the voice down.

 

BS

I didn't understand Mat. I tried so hard to make him funny, I wrote the HIM out of him.

[The Fisher King]

So much of the things Mat says and does now make be wince and cringe - and are painful. They too often make him seem an embarrasing shell of what he used to be.

 

Brandon has admitted that HE sees Mat as a ''lighter'' guy.

 

But...maybe **I** the reader want to see Mat as more the Bad Boy on The Harley.

 

Mat is the Bad Boy on The Harley....Bad Boy on The Harley....Why do those words about Mat stick in my mind? Oh yes, those are the EXACT words Robert Jordan used to describe Mat. Mat is sneaky and cool and all, but he is much more those things in a ''James Bond'' kind of way than the ''Inspector Gadget'' kind of way we have been given recently.

 

I would say the character after Mat that annoyed me most in TOM was Elayne. She used to be Silly. Now - she's an Idiot.

 

 

Fish

[Terez]

I met Mr Jordan at a little comic book shop in Houston when he was on tour for TEOTW. This was pre-internet but people in the know who had gotten advanced copied were raving about it already. I got lucky. The store was almost empty and my mom and I got to sit there and chat with him for almost an hour. He was awesome. Kinda like Santa Claus, lol. Big and Jolly, uncomfortable, humble but confident. And he would wave his arms all around when making a point and he just kept saying how EVERYTHING played on each other and you just had to wait and see how all the seeds planted in TEOTW would come out later in the series. He made it clear he was playing the ''Long Game.'' This is why I always thought he was having fun with people when he years later said he thought originally it would be a trilogy, lol. No way.

 

Would you be willing to write a report on that signing, with everything you can remember? It doesn't matter if you can't remember everything; whatever you can remember would be awesome.

 

"Royalty" is used three times in total in TGS and TOM. Hardly overuse...

 

The one that bothers me is 'monarch'. It's such a stiff word, and Brandon uses the hell out of it. RJ preferred 'ruler' when he wanted a gender-neutral term.

[Sid]

I don't recall Jordan making that statement about blademasters in Seanchan having a lower standard.

 

Chapter 11 was like all the worst Brandonisms from before rolled into one steaming pile. It's seriously like a funhouse mirror version of him.

 

For one thing, he had fond memories of the Rahad? The few times he went he almost got stabbed, and then only went back once the entire time he was there because Elayne and Nyneave dragged him there for the BotW, and he met up with the Gholam. Such fond memories. Getting stabbed and dueling with peasants with nothing to lose is something that Mat tends to avoid, by his own repeated admissions.

Another thing, the ale in Ebou Dar is horrible, the next thing to undrinkable. He doesn't seem to recall this fact though, and attributes it to things tasting bad everywhere, and actually thinks it's somewhat good.

He makes up some elaborate backstory (a new unnecessary addition to his character) to spiel at some Seanchan guard that has mud on his face. The most disciplined military force anywhere, and this guy looks worse than some lazy merchant's guard. But he gets mad that the soldier ignores his sprawling tale when he's trying to get into the city undetected. He's been turned into a complete buffoon. That's aside from the clunky prose and... other things.

 

This stuff is now canon in the WoT world. I mean, seriously.

[Terez]

I don't recall Jordan making that statement about blademasters in Seanchan having a lower standard.

 

It's not in the database, but that doesn't mean he never said it. Turak made a comment about 'let's see what it takes to earn the heron on this side of the ocean' so RJ might possibly have jumped on that when someone asked how Rand managed to kill Turak. That said, it's not in the database so we can't treat it as fact.

[Luckers]

2nd Edit: Little cross over comparison: Star Wars has some of the craziest fans. Look at the difference in opinion from episodes 4-6 to 1-3. But same creator involved. If RJ had screwed the pooch then people would have been insanely pissed.

I think there are some Jar-Jar Binks's in these last books...

 

Yes, his names Mat; but its okay he has a detailed back story worked out to explain it.

 

I think the argument Luckers was making (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that this is 'another' example of Brandon generalizing and dumbing down Aes Sedai, as evidenced by how Egwene brings them to her side in The Gathering Storm and continues to outsmart them in Towers of Midnight. Those are somewhat implausible cases for me, too. However, Pevara's case, as evidenced by my arguments above, is explainable, whether or not Brandon intended them that way (and I'm not casting judgments on his intent here). Therefore, it's entirely reasonable to interpret Pevara's surprise as consistent so far as it works within the story, and therefore not worth quibbling over or even getting mad about.

 

Actually I would say that this is more of a result of a blunt assessment of the elements that inform who Pevara is, and as a result an intensely literal portrayal. The dumbing down that occurs under Brandon usually only occurs where two characters are in some form of conflict with one another (though there are other forms of this, those ones usually only touch on big playes like Perrin, Rand or Egwene), and Pevara has as yet to be in direct conflict with another character.

 

In contrast, this element--which ultimately is the basis of what led Brandon wrong with Mat or Cadsuane--or Berelain, Olver or Alliandre, for that matter--is something where the genesis of the problem CAN be seen in the character as they were before. It comes from the way Brandon first absorbs and then dumps info on the page during his first draft--supposedly to then polish out during edits, though, of course, that doesn't always happen to the degree that it should.

 

And, as a result, we have Olver--who lost his parents, is running around with man-sluts and learning from Mat who is a gambler--with his intentions of getting the Aelfinn to tell him who killed his dad, his structural expectation of puberties more alluring effects, and his deeply literal understanding of a give-and-take relationship with Mat, or Berelain--who uses sex to work politics--with her deeply literal understanding of her relationship with Perrin re: Rand. Or Mat, who is irreverant, becomes an over the top jester.

 

And finally, Pevara, a Red Aes Sedai, becomes a mouth piece for throwing the Aes Sedai self-image onto others and a gaping mouth of shock when its shown not to be the case. Yes, all these points are not out of character, but they ARE overcharacter. And the realities of that overly blunt portrayal are a problem that can be identified, and yes, quibbled over.

 

Hey sutt, can I ask, given what you know now, how you feel about the way Brandon has handled everything and all that, would you rather the series just not have been finished? I don't mean that in a snarky way, nor am I trying to push the "wah be happy it got finished wahhh" agenda. I'm genuinely curious.

 

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I wanted to touch on it. I too definately prefer that the series got finished, and I don't think this is incongruate with the negative position I have taken--and I know that wasn't what you were suggesting, but it's still a point I wanted to make. I think the act of criticism is an act of respect, because it shows that I've taken Brandon seriously as a writer, rather than putting up with him because he brought us plot gratification.

 

Now, I'm sure Brandon, were he to see this, would respond dryly with 'thanks for all the love' and roll his eyes. I'm not stupid--I know my 'respect' is likely unpleasant for him. I'm, as he phrased it, the guy with the axe to grind and having an axe ground on you is not fun. Personally this does upset me, too, because I genuinely like Brandon as a man--he is nice, and respectful, and makes jokes about Yoni. But I continue, nonetheless, even though it likely is unpleasant--not because it can 'save the wheel' (I was accused of trying to do that, once, but that's wrong), but because he did this amazing thing in bringing us an ending we almost missed out on--and for that I feel we owe him the duty of respect and honesty, even if its hard--duty's and all that jazz.

 

So yeah--I don't think there's a contradiction in that, despite the twistings that come close. I am purely thankful to have the ending, but for all that I don't think it's wrong to criticise Brandon for his work so long as--and this is key--proper respect is paid to the extra difficulties created by him writing in a world not his own, and a series more complex than anything he had worked with before.

 

I honestly think it's ridiculous and insulting when people say Brandon just did this project for the money. Obviously money is one thing because writing is his career and he needs to support him and his family but to say he only did this for the money is stupid. For one, if he did this and screwed up miserably, his career would be in trouble in terms of trying to be successful (such as for The Stormlight Archive). Not only was he taking over a project from the best selling American fantasy author in history but he was having to sort through thousands of pages of notes to sort through what needs to happen to finish a series so well loved. Critiquing what he has done is one thing and yes, he has made some mistakes that he probably should've done better on, but to say this is all about money and all that is beyond stupid.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that. In fact, I think he chose to take on the Wheel DESPITE the issues you raise, purely for the adventure of the effort. That's a big thing with him--as far as I can tell he never writes for the money, he writes because it is like an adiction in him. He gets high from it--and, being offered the chance to play in the Wheel was like offering a trip to some exotic destination to an adrenelin junky.

 

I think this can be heard clearly in the way he talks about his role in the work, it can be seen in the way he only works on what excites or interests him, and leaves the rest to others as being a) beyond his skill and thus b) not his responsibility. And it can be felt in the way he first withdrew from the Wheel community when it stopped being fun with increasing criticism from the active fans on one side, and Harriet stepping in to take more control on the other, and then moved on to Way of Kings as soon as he could.

 

And, it can be read in the lack of polish, and the lowest common denominator plot-work. In the cheap character one upmanship, and all those other problems people have with his work--because all of these things are the result of specific, detailed technical work. They are the side of writing that doesn't involve the creative spurt, and they are were Brandon falls short.

 

To explain in a little more detail (though I realise I'm straying off topic) I'm going to flip the argument to the other side. On the first draft there is the thrill of the story unfolding, during which the writer explores it almost like a reader himself, only more intensely, more viscerally, than even the most obsessive reader. It is the same in the creation of innovative worlds and magic systems (or innovating with existing worlds and magic systems)--it is an act of creation and brings with it that high, and in these elements I don't think anyone could doubt that Brandon is one of the Bright Shiners--he lays down his first draft in record time, his magic systems and innovations are probably the best out there at the moment--but when it comes down to polishing what's already been created, well the high of creation is not present, and he falters...

 

So yeah, I agree with what Fisher King wrote: "I think Brandon thought it would be "cool" to write AMOL and was honored."

 

I had a long conversation with Mr Jordan in 1991 about TWOT (in person, and it was MY honor) and all I can say is, I believe he would be more than a little upset about some things but he was a gentleman to the end and Ive tried hard to mirror his example.

 

I suspect he would be mortified. But then, he would have been mortified to see a perfect rendition were it not writing by him. He relented, I suspect, only out of pity, and I shall forever be grateful.

 

He broke the Fourth Wall in AMOL with his self-gratifying multiple references to Talmanes having had a sense of humor all along simply to back up his own insistence that that was how HE (Sanderson) "had always interpreted" the character.

 

I read and appreciated everything you wrote Fish, but I wanted to highlight this. With problems he simply slaps a bandage on it and keeps on marching--this is one example, the Demandred-has-evolved-to-now-need-to-kill-Rand-personally-where-before-it-didn't-matter from the Moghedien PoV is another. There are worse--the Rebels sisters being accessible by gateway when he realised he forgot he'd need Myrelle in TofM, despite what it infers about how stupid Egwene is for not managing the same feat despite directly showing how worried she is about it is probably the worst, to my mind.

 

The Fisher, thank you for your input and opinion, might not agree with a lot of it, but it's honest, and it's without insult or push to be "right" Though I would suggest maybe the divide of "Casual reader" vs Those who really love the continuity is a bit... poorly chosen. That's not the divide. That maybe a divide that exists, but the line between people who don't have as much issue with BS and those who do is mostly certainly not a simple issue of "Only casual readers".

 

I agree... moreover I don't really think anyone who has stuck with a fourteen book reader could be considered in any way casual. That being said, I believe that is how Brandon has chosen to regard it. The fans with a problem are the hardcore fans who have developed, through a sense of entitlement they've developed toward the books, opinions based on small elements blown out of proportion, things the casual readers--by far the majority of his readership, as he views it--couldn't care less about.

 

As I said, I think this problematic. Certainly the hardcore, in their dedication, will have come across issues earlier--but, as you point out, the faults are being found based on personal taste, not dedication--which means those supposedly casual readers will come to the same points themselves, and it will either trouble them or not based on precisely the same reason some of these things trouble fish but not you.

 

Already we have seen this showing as more and more new posters are showing up concerned with these issues, and that trend, I suspect, will continue throughout the fandom, and likely in similar proportions. Yet Brandon has chosen to view it as a problem of one small group, and distance himself from, and disregard the opinions of, that group.

 

Time will tell, but I think this problematic.

 

Do yourselves a favor and "critique" the work after the story's finished; what we have is enjoyable and satisfying, and you're robbing yourselves of a lot with your overly-critical cynicism. Even if much of it is well-founded. The Wheel weaves, and all that.

 

The problem is, its not that easy. Genie's and bottles and that annoying bitch, Pandora.

 

[the more reasoned answer is simply this--these things jarr the imersion, and thus interfere with simply sitting back and enjoying them, and no active decision really stops that]

 

The points about the cyncism have been made. :-)

 

Yeah. Its not cynicism or personal dislike fueling me. I see many things that make Brandon seem like a VERY likeable person. I'm also on record as enjoying (for the most part) TGS. Noone wanted Sanderson to triumph more than those who genuinely love the series. But, if the emperor has no clothes, then he has no clothes!

 

I also never expected Sanderson to do as good a job as Jordan could have. I'm upset that - with all the resources offered to him - that Mr Sanderson didn't do as good a job (on LITTLE things!) that Mr SANDERSON could have done!!

 

 

Fish

 

I've been thinking a lot about this, and this is how I would phrase it. I feel Brandon has not done the best job he can do, rather I believe Brandon has done the job he chose to do, and done that very well, within those strictures. I believe in choosing to set aside the elements he did not wish to work on and regarding them as not his responsibility he compromised the work, and it was poorer for the result, and I believe that, though it would have been difficult and though there would have been flaws, and certainly though he could never had done as good a job as Jordan, had he stepped outside his comfort zone and tried, he could have done a much better job than he did.

 

There's really three types of problems that have cropped up:

 

1) In-world language irregularities like the 'bloody ashes' and 'royalty' that Fish brought up, and clumsy turns of phrase like the use of 'reports' that I mentioned earlier. These really bug people because they cause momentary breaks in immersion and could have been caught with careful editing.

 

2) Larger storytelling issues like the blunt 'tell instead of show' and 'one sentence too many' things that Luckers and others have brought up, or the Androl character discussed in another thread. These are a mixed bag--they could be author style, but given #1 it's equally likely they're partly the result of rushed writing and editing as well. It's harder to notice this sort of problem while mainlining the plot during a first read, but they do make rereads less enjoyable.

 

3) Problems that are clearly a matter of author style and tone, like Mat's characterization in TGS. I think everyone expected things like this to happen with the change in authorship, and while they're extremely off-putting, they're also understandable and forgivable for that very reason.

 

Ultimately, it's the frequent, trivial problems that make us more sensitive to the inevitable changes due to writing style--and that's too bad, because those problems should have been the easiest to correct.

 

-- dwn

 

Like, plus ten million. Great post.

[The Fisher King]

Chapter 11 HURT me to read.

 

Here is the thing I need to know. NEED to know. - The authorial citation on Chapter 16/19 and 22/23 and 31 (The Gholam Duel )in Towers of Midnight. I know (for a fact) what was written by who in almost every other major scene/chapter from TGS/TOM for almost every major character.

 

The Seven-Striped Lass was a very good 'Mat Chapter'' in MY opinion. Where he seemed over-caffienated in TGS he seemed more like himself in this chapter. Brandon publicly stated that the reason THIS chapter was the one he chose to release as the first TOM preview was because he was so proud of the improvment in Mat. I agreed. It was far from perfect and much of that chapter seemed to be Brandon saying ''See?! I COULD calm Mat down!'' but it was certainly and IMPROVEMENT. My point was...to see this version of Sanderson's Mat, or even the version in TGS when he finally calms down and is sitting on that boulder reflecting on his responsibilities - then seeing Mat in Chapter 11 of AMOL or the Mat who wrote that letter to Elayne...''Wildly inconsistent'' doesn't begin to cover it.

 

 

Fish