What Brandon Thinks of the Criticism [updated last post 31/10]

[Ryan52]

Simple question for Luckers, I am not trolling you or being nasty for the record I am just honestly curious. Did Brandon either refuse to read a sample of your work or tell you that your writing is not up to snuff?

[Knivy]

I believe the criticism is excessive in that it is just rehashing the same points over and over again, and escalating so that it is really unrecognizable from the original criticism.

 

This is just from what it FEELS like, not what it actually is. It has died down recently actually, and only a couple threads on the first page show that. (talking gen dis, i avoid the spoiler section because i havent read the aMoL stuff yet)

 

The feel here does seem to be very toxic once Brandon's name is mentioned. The criticism isn't wrong, but its grown to almost exclude any acceptance of Brandon's work. And it has become personal, many times criticizing Brandon, not the work.

[BFG]

Some seemingly can't accept Brandon and take any opening to find a flaw.

 

Here is yet another problem. Instead of rationally discussing different viewpoints the attitude is called "vile" and there are hints at some anti-BS conspiracy. All this does is take away from any constructive discussion on the topic. It is a somewhat feeble attempt to discredit the critique without actually addressing the content.

 

So you're saying that his two lines are unrelated to each other in response to the same tweet? That's pretty thin. It's implying that hardcore fans didn't feel the need to point out flaws before he grew in popularity, though there is slight element of truth there. Many hardcore fans scaled back the criticism big time after TGS, because it was his first try, and he did the best he could, and he was going to work on it. They didn't want to break the man in half. Had RJ released a book with TGS's quality we all would have thought he'd contracted some kind of mental condition.

This really made me laugh. For everyone except Jordan's most obsessed fans CoT is way worse than TGS,

 

In what way David? Advancing the plot, increasing the pace, fan gratification? Sure I'll buy that. If we are talking prose, quality of plotwork or charcterization then no, not by a long shot. More so although it is a strength some of that pace is more a function of where we are in the story arc as anything else. You know very well my thoughts on where RJ stands in relation to other authors. I don't think he was some master but the difference in quality is clear. For the first time the WoT became like other fantasy one has to "read down" to.

 

We're at the end of the series so plot pace is going to pick up, if RJ had been able to finish the pace would have picked up. So regardless of who authored it the pace in tGS and ToM was faster paced than CoT. Can BS take credit for it, not really, but taken as a book comparison then the pace of the book is increased. Same goes double for plot advancement - so I see these as pluses for the last 2 books.

 

And some characterisation has been done well - I'll take Perrin in tGS/ToM over Perrin in CoT almost every time, but again that's partly a feature of where the story is. Egwene is done very well as is Rand in tGS. The other characters are mixed, Mat doesn't match my view of him, Nyn is good...

 

I agree that the subtlety is missing and I don't feel qualified to compare prose, I'm more interested in story and characterisation so I'll trust those that do care about prose on that. But from that viewpoint I'd reread BS's books over CoT, although honestly I reread as a series, so will reread them all as often as each other *shrugs*.

 

 

 

EDIT: for the record, I don't view most of the critical posts as vile, although their are some obvious trolls, as there are obvious trolls criticising the critical posts. I don't think either add anything and both get tedious to read.

 

DOUBLE EDIT: forgot this had shifted boards, sorry

[David Selig]

In what way David? Advancing the plot, increasing the pace, fan gratification? Sure I'll buy that. If we are talking prose, quality of plotwork or charcterization then no, not by a long shot. More so although it is a strength some of that pace is more a function of where we are in the story arc as anything else. You know very well my thoughts on where RJ stands in relation to other authors. I don't think he was some master but the difference in quality is clear. For the first time the WoT became like other fantasy one has to "read down" to.

Yes, I think TGS is way better than CoT in everything except prose quality (but then I don't think Jordan was all that in this department even compared only to other fantasy writers). In terms of plot TGS is way better - COT suffered not only from few things happening, but those which did were pretty poorly plotted. Like Egwene getting captured (again), Elayne's deal with the Sea Folk when she conveniently forgot that the Kin could link, etc. Character development - TGS is much better mostly due tot Rand's development.

 

WoT is not and has never been the type of work in which plot matters little or not at all, BTW, so why do you keep using "plot gratification" as if it's a bad thing?

[Joebiwan]

I'm not sure why people are so upset by that quote.

 

A lot of book critics have rated the last two books higher then some of Jordan's books, and I think that a over-reaction to that from people who disagree is responsible for some of the anti-Brandon sentiment.

 

It also is true that there's a huge amount of anti-Brandon sentiment here in this forum that, as someone new to this forum, has been incredibly surprisng for me to see. Nearly every thread has someone saying something negitive about him.

 

Anyway, he agreed to take on this project knowing, I'm sure, that he was going to get a lot of hate from some long-time fans.

 

Although not new to the forum, I've always lurked sporadically, and on this most recent spat of lurking I too am surprised and dismayed to see almost every thread infected with anti-Brandon posts. Of course in a thread like this or Thisguy's thread it makes sense to post negative feeling about BS; but in a thread discussing what might happen or this or that prophecy do we really need to throw in how BS sucked at _____? (unless of course it directly relates to the theorizing).

[Agitel]

I find the environment in those topics becoming toxic, not constructive in the least. Anyway, in AMoL topics, I have been addressing specific points where I felt people were overreaching in their criticism, not just dismissing them.

 

Yet as has been made clear time and again the amount of people "bashing" as opposed to critiquing can be counted on one hand. When members cross the line they are often called down by even the most vocal of critics. I challenge you to go back Agitel and show us this "toxic" environment. If If the critique is mainly negative it's because of the quality of the work we have seen in these AMoL excerpts. As Peter said it is "important" to critique works of art and this is the forum for people to do so on the WoT. I know of two members that can be realistically characterized as such. Further rather than addressing certain points I have frequently seen you lash out in your responses as you did with your ridicule of Yoniy0 the other day.

 

Heaven forbid, no. I just resent the use of the noun 'entitlement' in this context, because it implies that there are no valid grievances here. Which there are, Agitel's ridicule notwithstanding.

 

I have let myself become heated at times, but it's disappointing that is all you've noticed from me. Here's a few things I've addressed recently as they've come out:

 

A Memory of Light Spoilers

 

 

-Whether Mat's behavior in Chapter 11 was in character.

-Pevara's surprise at Androl being the weakest.

-Androl's perceived OOC knowledge of Aes Sedai

-Avi's behavior in Chapter 2 and some of the things she's said.

-Pevara's freak-out after linking with Androl.

 

 

 

There's been other things, but I have made arguments on those topics rather than outright dismissals.

 

As for Yoniy0, that was specifically in regards to him complaining about TOWERS not being released in 2011 as "promised," seeming to characterize it as Brandon slighting fans. I apologize for any heat in my remarks, but I do find that type of attitude in general to stem from a sense of entitlement. I could go into the specifics of Sanderson contrasted with Martin (another author whose received heat for missing stated deadline goals) on this one, or just my own opinion of Sanderson specifically on this topic, but I feel that would be counter-productive, as I feel that regardless of circumstances an author doesn't deserve criticism for having to extend deadlines in order to finish a product to their satisfaction. There may exceptions in the case of an author taking on someone else's work under contract, but unless you think Sanderson was just twiddling his thumbs and not working despite being under contract to do so, I don't see the validity of it. Nor can we make judgments on how the extra time impacted the work, first: because we don't have the work, second: because we don't have a "before" and an "after", and third: because even if we did any analysis would be based on too much speculation of what it would have been without the extra time.

 

That's not to say we can't talk quality. We can even say that the extra time didn't allow it to meet or expectations. But seeing the delay as a broken promise or taking insult at that? I just don't see it.

[Suttree]

Simple question for Luckers, I am not trolling you or being nasty for the record I am just honestly curious. Did Brandon either refuse to read a sample of your work or tell you that your writing is not up to snuff?

 

Seeing as how you just created this account, wondering what your normal handle is?

 

As for the question I can answer this quite easily. Luckers has received an inside view into how the process has progressed. He understands more than almost any of us the amount of work and effort that has gone in. I'm not at liberty to share what any of that is and only know a small sliver of the whole but it is that inside view combined with the lack of forward momentum(actually a regression in quality) that has lead him to his current view. I can assure you that not much pains him more than conclusions he has reached on this topic.

 

WoT is not and has never been the type of work in which plot matters little or not at all, BTW, so why do you keep using "plot gratification" as if it's a bad thing?

 

Sorry about that, should have been more clear. Plot gratifcation is in itself of course not a bad thing, but it becomes problematic when it is allowed to carry the narrative and subpar prose. Real quick I do have to say I always enjoy discussing this topic with you. I find that even if you lean more heavily one way you always are able to convey your thoughts in a clear and respectful manner. Cheers mate.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Alright, I am going to lock this topic for a while. It has gone off topic. It was not started with the intent to debate the pros and cons of Brandon sanderson, nor to complain about others. It was to discuss the quote that was originally posted, that discussion has long come to an end. If you wish to discuss it further, take it to the "Thisguy" thread set aside for critique purposes.

 

A final note: We do not restrict any opinions or posts at all. As long as they stay civil and do not break the CoC, any and all opinions are allowed. To complain about these opinions is also allowed of course, but essentially pointless. We have no plans of censoring anyone's opinion just because some people don't like it. While I would love it for everyone to get along and have a pleasant time on the forum, unfortunately, if you find the content not to your liking, you really just have to ignore it or leave. I would much prefer it if everyone stayed, as I would not like to think people are avoiding Dragonmount, but we can simply do nothing about it. The only thing we can do is moderate the posts that break the CoC.

 

Having said that, we have not exactly ignored people. We have created, as you can see, specific threads dedicated to certain aspects. There is the Chapter 2: Plot Specific thread that was made with these complaints in mind. However, beyond that, there is, as said, nothing that can be done.

 

And as always, feel free to PM either Luckers, Yoniy0 or myself if you see a problem or if you have a suggestion to make the forum experience better.

[Luckers]

Brandon and I have been talking about this issue, and he asked me to post this. I'm going to leave the thread locked, and in that way give Brandon the last word on the matter. I think that fair.

 

I'm sorry if my twitter comments offended. I didn't mean to imply you were reacting for that reason; I don't follow the threads on Dragonmount, but when I'd popped in on occasion, I'd seen a few people arguing about my work vs. Jordan's work, with comments saying they felt it important to point out my flaws because they hated the brandon fanboyism. (Honestly, I've seen this more on reddit than Dragonmount, but I remember it on Dragonmount too.) That's what I was posting about, not you.