What Brandon Thinks of the Criticism [updated last post 31/10]

[Luckers]

Really? I just don't remember that--my memory is that it was actually a fairly popular opinion for quite a while that Brandon's books were better than many of RJ's (and not just CoT or PoD). We even currently have an active thread where posters rank the books on the General board where many posters rank Brandon's books higher than many of Jordan's, and there's been no explosion of loyalist fan-rage.

 

In fact the core of a great deal of what I've said was about how initially due to the speedy delivery and use of fan and plot gratification Brandon's books are widely praised--it's only been with time that the depth and breadth of flaws underneath that glossy veneer have come under discussion--and inherent in that point is that Brandons books WERE widely praised. Including by me--in initial rankings of the books after tGS came out I listed it well about CoT, PoD, tEotW, tGH or tDR--effectively say I thought it better than RJ'd books.

 

And most of the other I see holding critical positions now also held that point. The idea that we would then react to the idea that Brandon's books were better than RJ's with shock, rage--or an outpouring of loyalty--is beyond strange. I mean if it were sheerly an act of loyalty, as Brandon states--and yes, loyalty that takes real flaws and runs with them, but still loyalty in its origin--then surely that should have exploded onto stage from the outset--because despite Brandon's phrasing of having just grown popular enough for this to be said, it's actually been around, and was far more common, since back at the beginning.

[Agitel]

This just feels like a continuation of some personal feud you have with Brandon, to me.

[Luckers]

This just feels like a continuation of some personal feud you have with Brandon, to me.

 

I imagined it, did I? Made it up? Or are you suggesting Brandon's comment was about me, specifically, as his side of this fued?

 

I suspect you overestimate my significance.

[dapianoplay3r]

I have to agree. Not a feud but it feels like you are trying to push your point.

Now I like you from what I know of you (which isnt too much other than random chats on chat and around here) and I like brandons stuff (though I do have criticisms) but in reading this thread it comes across that you are trying to prove a point in something more personal than what's just on this thread

 

I dont know the story of you and Brandon but in this thread you dont seem to be as neutral as normal. Im not trying to tell you that you are wrong (from what ive read i think i agree with you a bit) but you are coming across pretty harsh luckers

[nwash_10]

What exactly is the point of this thread?

 

It really just feels like unnecessary muckraking...

[Luckers]

I have to agree. Not a feud but it feels like you are trying to push your point.

Now I like you from what I know of you (which isnt too much other than random chats on chat and around here) and I like brandons stuff (though I do have criticisms) but in reading this thread it comes across that you are trying to prove a point in something more personal than what's just on this thread

 

I dont know the story of you and Brandon but in this thread you dont seem to be as neutral as normal. Im not trying to tell you that you are wrong (from what ive read i think i agree with you a bit) but you are coming across pretty harsh luckers

 

Fair enough. And yes, it's true enough that I'm not nuetral on this. I'm pissed off. Massively so.

 

Set that aside. Look at what Brandon said, irrespective of my anger, and ask yourself if it seems reasonable? Ask yourself if its not insulting to those who have offered criticism of the books to be cast-type and dismissed--under the pretence of acknowledging their criticisms, but in reality disregarding them whole.

 

I get that he's a really nice guy. He's personable, sweet and just as nerdy as we are. But in those comments he acted like a douche toward the fandom--his fans.

 

But yes, you are right. I am not nuetral when it comes to this (though that is not to say I've been unfair). And whilst I don't agree that I'm trying to prove a point--the point is there, and proven--I do think I understand where you get that impression that there is greater scope for me than just what has been in this thread.

[dapianoplay3r]

Like i said there are bits i agree with. I have never spoken to him so i have to take your word for it, but I think you may look back on this and regret being so harsh

 

But yes I think he should listen. People are only trying to help. I get that some people are just mean about stuff and you would want to keep that at bay but i wager you weren't like that with your points and I think he is a fool for ignoring what you had to say

 

Either way the books are being finished and we should be grateful. We can argue all we like but it's left his hands now and he cant and we cant change anything from now on really

[yoniy0]

Either way the books are being finished and we should be grateful. We can argue all we like but it's left his hands now and he cant and we cant change anything from now on really

I'm sorry, is this reason enough to keep quiet about their shortcomings? Also, why should we be grateful? Why is that required of us? There's a big difference between being grateful yourself (as I have said I personally am numerous times) and thinking everyone else should be as well; what if some random John would've preferred no books to books that spoiled his memories of tWoT, is that not a valid perspective?

[Barid Bel Medar]

This thread has nothing to do with which opinion is right when it comes to Brandon's quality.

 

Brandon has stated that the majority of criticism comes from apparently die-hard fans who feel the need to point out his mistakes out of some absurd wish to prove that RJ's work was better.

 

Whether it is or not is not the point. The point is that it is a serious flaw in thinking and totally dismissive of the fans.

 

If it was a mistake, very well, but it was poorly phrased, and if we are corrected on it, very well.

[TristanWebb]

Saying we should be grateful to Brandon for finishing the books isn't true. We should be grateful to Harriett for allowing them to be finished. Brandon should be grateful to us for being passionate enough about the series to give him a shitton of money writing the end. If Harriett wanted the series finished, she would of found a different author if BS turned it down. Just knowing how it ended would of been enough for me in the months after RJ died.

[Agitel]

People are putting words into Brandon's mouth now. He never mentioned jealousy. At worst, he said that the vile attitude that has cropped up on these boards among some fans is a counter-reaction to the very enthusiastic reception GATHERING and TOWERS got. And vile is right. I think Brandon would agree that there have been mistakes in his works. He's said as much, both in longer posts and even in this Tweet. I think he'd say that criticism is valid. But the attitude on these boards has gotten downright vile.

 

I don't think taking such a short comment as a summation of Brandon's view is in any way fair. Second, people are putting a lot more meaning into this than there is.

 

Third, does this really belong on a board dedicated to discussion of the plot and what's been released of AMoL?

[waffle]

what vile attitude?

[Suttree]

People are putting words into Brandon's mouth now. He never mentioned jealousy. At worst, he said that the vile attitude that has cropped up on these boards among some fans is a counter-reaction to the very enthusiastic reception GATHERING and TOWERS got. And vile is right. I think Brandon would agree that there have been mistakes in his works. He's said as much, both in longer posts and even in this Tweet. I think he'd say that criticism is valid. But the attitude on these boards has gotten downright vile.

 

Bwahaha. Did you seriously just say people are putting words in his mouth and then go on to imply that he called the attitude vile?

 

The very worst part about this is otherwise intelligent fans railing at any dissenting views, while also implying they should be censored or have no place here. That is far more troubling than anything else I have seen. I can count on one hand the # of people that actually "bash" Brandon and for an otherwise intelligent poster like Herid to say it is some widespread occurrence is disappointing. As Peter Alshteom said the other day it is very important to be able to critique. Apparently some people can't handle that. Calling that act of criticism vile is sheer ignorance and this place we have reached in society where any critique is "hating" or "bashing" saddens me to no end.

[Luckers]

Third, does this really belong on a board dedicated to discussion of the plot and what's been released of AMoL?

 

You actually have a good point here, I'll move it to General WoT Discussions.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Just a note, edited my post as a good point was pointed out.

[Wool-headed lummox]

Saying we should be grateful to Brandon for finishing the books isn't true. We should be grateful to Harriett for allowing them to be finished. Brandon should be grateful to us for being passionate enough about the series to give him a shitton of money writing the end. If Harriett wanted the series finished, she would of found a different author if BS turned it down. Just knowing how it ended would of been enough for me in the months after RJ died.

I think the amount of gratitude should be defined by the amount of work invested. Being passionate isn't work. Giving permission isn't work, although I'm sure Harriet had a difficult decision to make. Sitting down, studying all the previous novels, the amount of notes left by RJ, his writing style, the extensive lore, and then actually writing three long novels in a manner that's satisfying - that is incredibly hard work regardless of dividends expected, and saying that Brandon Sanderson should be grateful to the fandom borders delusional self-aggrandizing. The fandom is nothing. Often, the fandom is the very thing that obstructs potential future improvement, as is obvious by people saying "I wish these books were never written" in this thread.

 

 

Brandson Sanderson's books accomplish what they are meant to accomplish. They are exciting, filled with action, actual information, and long-standing plotlines finding their definite resolution. They aren't boggled down by irrelevant costume and scenery porn, and the amount of soap-opera drama is reduced to a minimum. Most of all, they are well-structured and have a consistent pace, which feels neither rushed nor dragged. I have no idea how RJ was going to finish the series in one novel, after three books of near stand-still and minor action in KoD. The novel would have to have been radically different from everything written to that point, not to mention overly long.

[muddasssir]

hey guys cool it off I will not believe it of Luckers that he is biased or doing it out of spite, because we had long discussions when BS was selected and even afterwards when the tGS and ToM came out. yes we have been extremely harsh on BS but what he need to understand is that we had such high hopes for him. We thought that he could be next RJ. unfortunately, he has reacted as a spoiled pop star. When told that your this song is not as good as the previous one. He or she will react with oh you do not know what to hear for. He did not say it right out, but that is what he meant. having said that I have always maintained that Harriet and team Jordan are as much to blame for as BS for all the errors in the book.

[herid]

This is not my favorite topic of discussion but I feel I should say something since BS was responding to my tweet there. as I mentioned in the other thread after more than a year away from this forum I noticed a markedly negative turn in attitude toward BS here. I don't mind the criticism of his work at all and as I said there and also in that twitter conversation I have plenty of problems with it myself. By I do feel that a number of threads and posts here are way too negative and more importantly way too personal. This is becoming quite grating. This thread is but one example. There is nothing personal here at all or at least there shouldn't be as far as I am concerned. I don't want to have a relationship with BS. I don't want to hold hands and take long walks under the moon. I just want him to write the best ending of WOT he can, that's all. But I don't take it as a personal affront if he messes up or doesn't do what he said he would in regards to the book writing process. I'm disappointed (sometimes very disappointed) but not offended. and I do think that this personal resentment towards BS that I detect in a number of people here starting with luckers inevitably colors their opinions about the books themselves.

All that said, I did find BS's comment about the hardcore fans criticizing him because some casual fans think he is better than RJ fairly ridiculous. But again, I don't really care. So the guy has a big head. He wouldn't be the first one.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I agree with your last statement (well most of the rest as well). I do think Brandon cops much of what is Team Jordan's judgement or errors.

 

If Harriet, Alan and Maria are saying that it is all good and it is going swimmingly, what else is Brandon supposed to do? Say no, I don't believe you are correct? He work/s/ed under them, they had the final say in most things. So yes, Brandon deserves credit in that respect.

 

Edit: In response to Mudds

[Suttree]

Brandon has stated that the majority of criticism comes from apparently die-hard fans who feel the need to point out his mistakes out of some absurd wish to prove that RJ's work was better.

 

Whether it is or not is not the point. The point is that it is a serious flaw in thinking and totally dismissive of the fans.

 

If it was a mistake, very well, but it was poorly phrased, and if we are corrected on it, very well.

 

This. I am open to hearing whether that isn't what he intended but the statement is pretty clear. Take this in combination with past statements and it doesn't come across well.

[yoniy0]

herid, I would like to know if you found anything I said vicious.

[Agitel]

People are putting words into Brandon's mouth now. He never mentioned jealousy. At worst, he said that the vile attitude that has cropped up on these boards among some fans is a counter-reaction to the very enthusiastic reception GATHERING and TOWERS got. And vile is right. I think Brandon would agree that there have been mistakes in his works. He's said as much, both in longer posts and even in this Tweet. I think he'd say that criticism is valid. But the attitude on these boards has gotten downright vile.

 

Bwahaha. Did you seriously just say people are putting words in his mouth and then go on to imply that he called the attitude vile?

 

The very worst part about this is otherwise intelligent fans railing at any dissenting views, while also implying they should be censored or have no place here. That is far more troubling than anything else I have seen. I can count on one hand the # of people that actually "bash" Brandon and for an otherwise intelligent poster like Herid to say it is some widespread occurrence is disappointing. As Peter Alshteom said the other day it is very important to be able to critique. Apparently some people can't handle that. Calling that act of criticism vile is sheer ignorance and this place we have reached in society where any critique is "hating" or "bashing" saddens me to no end.

 

I did not call for censorship.

 

Vile was my own word. Oops. Anyway, should I have said zealous? Intense negative reaction? What word better fits? Because even in that tweet Brandon wasn't dismissing criticism, but a certain class of complaints and attacks. This very topic is personal in nature, going beyond just criticism of the works. While you did have a point in pointing out my mistake, you didn't dismiss my overall point. And you went further and put words into my mouth and mischaracterized my own position.

[herid]

@yoniy0 No, not you, so far that I have seen. you are in the clear, man :)

But I confess, I didn't read all the anti BS threads in detail.

[Suttree]

But I don't take it as a personal affront if he messes up or doesn't do what he said he would in regards to the book writing process. I'm disappointed (sometimes very disappointed) but not offended. and I do think that this personal resentment towards BS that I detect in a number of people here starting with luckers inevitably colors their opinions about the books themselves.

 

Here is the problem with this statement. First even the vast majority of those who think the criticism is voiced too often agree that the criticism is valid. When that is the case not sure how anything is being colored. Second no, the criticism is not personnel. It is aimed at the quality of his writing, his art. If anything Luckers has not made public even a fraction of what he knows about the process because of the harm it would do and to keep the writing and personnel sides of things seperate. Any disappointment you see has to do with the drop in quality of the wheel period. I have to say Herid I was pretty disappointed to see you call that "bashing" in twitter land as again there are only a couple people here who ever cross the line. Further why single out DM, the same happens at Theoryland and it is the prevailing sentiment. The only difference there is people who don't agree post examples of what they think he did well and a productive debate ensues. Here it's "well yeah I know what your saying us true but ZOMG your a hater!!!" Do people forget what the tone was like for RJ during CoT. Well informed fans will always point out the issues, the only difference now is for some reason people seem to want to shape the discussion. Certain things apparently should be kept hush hush despite their validity. All good, nothing to see here, carry on old chap. I'm sorry but that by far is bigger insult to Brandon than pointing out the flaws in his work.

 

I did not call for censorship.

 

Vile was my own word. Oops. Anyway, should I have said zealous? Intense negative reaction? What word better fits? Because even in that tweet Brandon wasn't dismissing criticism, but a certain class of complaints and attacks. This very topic is personal in nature, going beyond just criticism of the works. While you did have a point in pointing out my mistake, you didn't dismiss my overall point. And you went further and put words into my mouth and mischaracterized my own position.

 

I most certainly did not and Yoniy0 has the right below about your comments. You attempted to characterize the current climate in which valid criticism is finally being addressed as vile. Now what are you doing if not trying to imply people are wrong in voicing their critique. It is "vile" after all.

 

of all, they are well-structured and have a consistent pace, which feels neither rushed nor dragged. I have no idea how RJ was going to finish the series in one novel, after three books of near stand-still and minor action in KoD. The novel would have to have been radically different from everything written to that point, not to mention overly long.

 

I often enjoy your posts Lummox for all that you harshly word your critique RJ at times, usually the points are very insightful and in the past they have made me reasses certain things. It's for this reason I find it so important that there is an open discourse on these topics. Having said that I must disagree here. You would be hard pressed to find anyone that has studied literature who would call TGS and ToM "well structured" in addition KoD was equal to TGS and ToM in its pace an action. I'm not one of these people who thinks RJ is the greatest fantasy writer but he had things going in the right direction. Also you seem to be saying that CoT is the norm for him. We have a book like TSR that was superior to either of Brandon's in every way. One book along those lines, released in two WH size volumes. There is a huge amount from both TGS and ToM that you could clip without rewriting a thing so lets not pretend they are only filled with necessary items to wrap things up. Lastly you have it backwards in relation to the fandom. If we had been more realistic about our initial reaction to TGS we may not be in the position we are in now.

[yoniy0]

Well then I put forward that the only heated remarks posted here by all but very few members are in response to posts of the nature of Agitel's remarks above -- which are incredibly inaccurate and very nearly offensive in the way they characterize a whole class of arguments as vile. That sort of unfounded rebuttal can incite spirited reactions, I admit.