Dark Prophecy from ToM

[TootThatHorn]

I'm not in to the idea of Perrin going to Seanchan, I've speculated that if anything I would see Rand and Avi going there, but righting what is wrong could have to do with collaring, or finding a non corrupted version of the prophecies.

[yoniy0]

I'm fairly certain RJ said we weren't going back there.

[Terez]

Not for any extended trips. He did leave the possibility open for something similar (in duration) to Rand and Aviendha's trip in TFOH.

[herid]

I doubt there will be even anything as long as the Avi and Rand trip to Seanchan in TFOH. We might see something of the sort we saw in TOM prologue to show that the LB involves the whole world but likely not much longer than that. Both RJ and BS were rather emphatic that nothing of import will occur outside main Randlands. Sammael thinks the same in-book during his meeting with Graendal in LOC, Ch 6.

[ozimandias]

First of all I think we should examine the prophecy paragraph as a whole thing and not just mix and match to get our ideas validated. That is not a very scientific method. Heh... :)

 

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and

the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who

will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come.

Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and

be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring

fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

 

 

Anyway what can we see here?

 

One-eyed fool is obviously Mat. It seems too late to introduce another One-eyed goofy character, characterize him enough so that the reader and the world around him cares of his fate. So Mat it is.

 

The First Among Vermin is either be Rand or Egwene depending on who leads the Aes Sedai (both male and female I guess) into battle to brake the seals of the Dark One. It is probably Rand who will by the end of the book have the trust of all male and female channelers. So we can assume he is the First Among Vermin.

 

The next line is often mistaken for something else. All that we read in it is that the PRIDE of the Fallen Blacksmith shall come to and end. Considering that the two other prophecies are 99% surely referring to the two other main characters I see no point in arguing that this one is not about Perrin.

 

"Yea" as used here implies that it means: "More than this; not only so, but; -- used to mark the addition of a more specific or more emphatic clause. Cf. Nay, adv."

 

So not only will his pride come to an end BUT the Broken Wolf will also fall and be consumed by the Towers.

 

Which could mean a lot of things.

I cut the imfarel interpretation because while I agree that an Imfarel arc is Possible, I think it is unlikely given how much needs to happen and how difficult it would be to introduce an arc that complex, particularly given quotes we have that we won't see more of the Seanchan lands. I also think it unlikely that Perrin would be referred to as BOTH the fallen blacksmith AND the broken wolf in the same prophecy. Besides, in what way has Perrin known death, or death known him?

 

My belief is that the Broken Wolf is Hopper. He falls,and is consumed by the midnight towers by becoming a Dark Hound, which we know slayer does to the souls of the wolves he kills.

So I believe we will see him come back and he will be leading an army of darkhounds alongside Slayer and will shake the very will of men. I also think this prophecy is the one Graendal and Moridin were referring to as making it clear that Perrin would be killed at their hands. They misinterpreted it and thought Perrin was the Broken Wolf, which is why Graendal was so confused when her plan failed. Because Hopper was the Broken Wolf!

[shortkut]

Is it too late for uno to be the one eyed fool?

[cofcougars]

“Lo, it shall come upon the world that the prison of the Greatest One shall grow weak, like the limbs of those who crafted it. Once again, His glorious cloak shall smother the Pattern of all things, and the Great Lord shall stretch forth His hand to claim what is His. The rebellious nations shall be laid barren, their children caused to weep. There shall be none but Him, and those who have turned their eyes to His majesty.”

“In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith’s pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.”

“And then, shall the Lord of the Evening come. And He shall take our eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and He shall take our skin, for our flesh shall serve Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will we praise. And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful. Let the screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!”

 

------------------------------------------------

 

My apologies in advance if this has been covered 1000 times over in these forums (which is likely) or if I'm posting in the wrong forum (also likely). That said, I have been surfing the net about this last prophecy off and on since the ToM came out. I've yet to find any place that has anything that looks definitive and certainly some very odd musings about the meaning of this passage. For me, it was clear the moment I read it; however, I have yet find anyone who agrees with my thinking so I decided to see if this has already been "solved" among the masses and verify that my take is in fact wrong. :) Regardless, it may bring some closure to my own internal deliberations.

 

Allow me...

 

 

“Lo, it shall come upon the world that the prison of the [Dark One] shall grow weak, like the limbs of those who crafted it. Once again, His glorious cloak shall smother the Pattern of all things, and the [Dark One] shall stretch forth His hand to claim what is His. The rebellious nations shall be laid barren, their children caused to weep. There shall be none but Him, and those who have turned their eyes to His majesty. In that day, when the [Mat] travels the [the Tower of Ghenji], and the [Dragon Reborn] lifts his hand to [destroy the seals of the Dark One], the last days of [Perrin's Wife, Faile] shall come. Yea, and the [now broke-hearted Perrin], the one whom Death has known, shall fall [avenging his wife] and be consumed by the [Forsaken or Seanchean]. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself. And then, shall [Moridin/Dark One] come. And He shall take our eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and He shall take our skin, for our flesh shall serve Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will we praise. And the Lord of the Evening shall face [Rand], and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful. Let the screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!"

 

 

 

It seems pretty obvious that this was the passage that Moridin was showing Graendal. And that Perrin's downfall was foretold and deemed to be a critical milestone in the success of the Shadow's prophecies. Also, it's possible (and in my view likely), that the Fallen Blacksmith and the Broken Wolf are in fact the same person--a before-and-after view of the same person rather. If Faile dies, then Perrin's brain goes to mush, thinking only of revenge and seeking his own kamikaze ending.

 

Now, I think the real question is if this is a potential future. One that would've/could've happened any number of times (e.g., by the hand of Graendal, Slayer, etc) or one that is to come. One that Ishmael was trying to fulfill when he gave Graendal the tools to make it happen (Slayer and the Dreamspike). Or if this is something that WILL happen, at least until the point that Rand fights at Shayol Ghul.

 

 

And..... discuss.

[JimboSlice]

I think the fallen blacksmiths pride refers to his refusal to take up a position of authority among the two rivers people. It refers to his refusal to be a king. The last days of the fallen blacksmiths pride refers to Perin giving into his fate and accepting his role as a leader. He puts aside his pride in being a blacksmith.

 

I don't know whether Perin is the broken wolf. That was my original thought, but when has death known him? It seems though that it would have to be a main character to 'shake the will of men' in this situation. Perin seems to be the only one who fits.

[herid]

first, I would ask the mods to merge this with some existing dark prophecy thread and maybe move it to the AMOL forum. as for your interpretations, as you suspect they have all been offered before except for Faile being the Fallen Blacksmith's pride. I haven't seen that one.

Perrin being the Broken wolf is one of the more popular and more reasonable theories but it's still extremely unlikely IMO. Min had a viewing of Perrin becoming the king of Saldaea (tEoTW, ch15 ) and the same thing has been heavily foreshadowed elsewhere (TGH, ch 8). This is highly unlikely to happen before the LB is over. Also, the same viewing of Min talks about trees flowering around Perrin. There is no way any trees will be flowering around anybody in the remaining time before the DO is defeated.

[Pilz]

Yes there are many threads on this.

 

I find it hard to believe that Faile would be a part of dark prophesy. Also the death of Perrin would not have the devastating effect on mankind that the prophesy claims of the Broken Wolf. Who the Broken Wolf is is probably the most debated topic from ToM.

[Shig]

“Lo, it shall come upon the world that the prison of the Greatest One shall grow weak, like the limbs of those who crafted it. Once again, His glorious cloak shall smother the Pattern of all things, and the Great Lord shall stretch forth His hand to claim what is His.

 

It's likely this has been pointed out before(because of the number of these debates) but stretching forth 'his hand' may refer to Shaidar Haran having to do something, eg confronting Rand, or possibly fulfilling some other role which leads to the destruction of the seals and the DO's prison.

 

Has it been decided upon whether any of this prophecy's points have occured already or if they are yet to happen? Obviously the seals are weakening, and other than being integrated with Lews Therin, Rand is exhausted(physically, mentally, probably emotionally).

[cofcougars]

Now, I think the real question is if this is a potential future. One that would've/could've happened any number of times (e.g., by the hand of Graendal, Slayer, etc) or one that is to come. One that Ishmael was trying to fulfill when he gave Graendal the tools to make it happen (Slayer and the Dreamspike). Or if this is something that WILL happen, at least until the point that Rand fights at Shayol Ghul.

 

While I appreciate the replies (and some very interesting things I hadn't thought of), that wasn't quite the point. Bear with me here...

 

Point #1: Let's talk about Herid's post above about Min's viewing of Perrin being a king in Saldaea at some point in the future. Great reference and good point, and one I had forgotten about. That said, this doesn't matter to my theory. In several references throughout the book the characters have made it clear that if the Dark One wins, there is no point to Min's viewing. The future ceases to exist. This prophecy is about the Dark One winning.

 

Point #2: To Pilz's post about Perrin's death not having the devastating affect on mankind. That is not a good point. Who else could die other than Rand, Matt or Perrin that would have that profound of an impact on mankind? Setting aside that they're the strongest taveren ever and the impact of Perrin's death on the Pattern would be profound, what should be noted is Perrin's influence and the loyalty he inspires in the nations and men of the world. He has several nations already under his command.

 

Point #3: This is a prophecy about the Dark One winning. Nothing more--containing only the things that would have to happen to make that prophecy come true; thus, the reason why Moridin set Graendal to this task, explaining why the Forsaken and many o' Darkfriends have been striving to kill Matt and Perrin. Min has been telling Rand all along: He needs both of them.

 

My reasoning was this: Perhaps this is a possibility of the future. One that would have to happen for the Dark One to win. And one that may not happen, if the Light is to win.

[herid]

while the characters in the books have to consider the possibility of the DO winning we as readers don't have to. We know full well that he won't. this is confirmed both in-book (e.g. the headers of the LoC and TOM prologues) and out of book in multiple interviews by the authors. And the prophecies are not competing. It's not an either or deal. The authors confirmed that in the interviews too.

ALL of the prophecies, both the light and the dark ones will be fulfilled, the trick is to figure out how.

 

BTW, I suggest you go through this thread (and the other threads about the dark prophecy). this will answer many of your questions.

[Bastor]

Sooo...save Faile == save the world?

[cofcougars]

Sooo...save Faile == save the world?

 

 

No, not really. Mostly I was implying that the Fallen Blacksmith and the Broken Wolf are, in fact, the same person. Perrin. In order to become the "Broken Wolf" the only thing that could cause that to happen would be Faile's death. To Herid's point: If the prophecies are, in fact, not competing and all will be fulfilled--then the Broken Wolf cannot be Perrin.

[herid]

 

here is the relevant interview quote

Interview: 2010

 

Twitter 2009-2010 (WoT) (Verbatim)

Ty Margheim (8 November 2010)

 

Are the prophecies competing a la The Belgariad (by David Eddings), or are they complementary?

Brandon Sanderson (8 November 2010)

 

 

Not competing like The Belgariad, and certainly not intelligent like in The Belgariad.

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Some may be interpreted wrong, others may be recorded wrong, but there is not a this/that nature to them.

 

BTW, if Faile dies then Perrin can't become the king of Saldaea. There are both of Faile's parents and Tenobia (they would all have to die first) and also the process of succession which can't be instantaneous.

[cofcougars]

BTW, if Faile dies then Perrin can't become the king of Saldaea. There are both of Faile's parents and Tenobia (they would all have to die first) and also the process of succession which can't be instantaneous.

 

Exactly... which is why I said, if the prophecies are in fact not competing, then I'm not sure why people in the poll voted for Perrin. It can't be Perrin.

[herid]

my last comment was not about the Broken Wolf but about your idea that "the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride" part refers to Faile dying. Sorry, I should have made that clear. If Faile dies before Perrin becomes the king of Saldaea he loses all rights to that throne. In order for it to work it has to go something like this. Faile's parents and Tenobia die. Perrin goes through the process of succession and becomes the king. Then Faile dies. Highly unlikely IMO.

[cofcougars]

The Faile comment was under the assumption that prophecies could compete and that some could possibly not be fulfilled. With that in mind, set aside my Faile comment for now, as I was positioning a unique viewpoint in which this prophecy could happen if the Dark One was to win... not would happen. Clearly Graendal thought this passage meant Perrin dies.

 

Assuming, however, that all prophecies must be fulfilled, my second argument is that the Broken Wolf cannot be Perrin if you believe Min's viewings. I can't seem to remember the passage exactly that says he becomes the King of Saldaea though.

 

Too much fun this stuff. Too bad it all ends in the next book. :)

[herid]

Min's viewing I was referring to is this one

The strongest things I see about the big, curly-haired fellow are a wolf, and a broken crown, and trees flowering all around him.

--tEoTW, ch 15

It doesn't say right out that this means that Perrin will become the king of Saldaea but it's a pretty safe assumption. The broken Crown of Saldaea is mentioned several times throughout the series. The other point in the same direction I mentioned is this remark by Leane from TGH, ch 8

The Aes Sedai shook her head. “The world grows stranger every day. I suppose the blacksmith will wear a crown and speak in High Chant."

This is a very typical foreshadowing. Min's viewing also talks about trees flowering around Perrin which again isn't likely to happen before the LB is over given the state of things at the moment.

[yoniy0]

Don't forget this little nugget:

"From Saldaea, eh?" Elyas said when she was done.

Perrin nodded. "That's right. We thought about seeing Maradon first. I'd surely like to see the King. But the capital city would be the first place our fathers would look."

[Suttree]

Don't forget this little nugget:

"From Saldaea, eh?" Elyas said when she was done.

Perrin nodded. "That's right. We thought about seeing Maradon first. I'd surely like to see the King. But the capital city would be the first place our fathers would look."

 

+1

[herid]

Don't forget this little nugget:

"From Saldaea, eh?" Elyas said when she was done.

Perrin nodded. "That's right. We thought about seeing Maradon first. I'd surely like to see the King. But the capital city would be the first place our fathers would look."

oh, I totally forgot about this one!