Bair used to be able to channel

[Sentinel78]

This isn't exactly a huge plot point, but after reading the aMoL prologue I think Bair used to be able to channel.

 

From tSR, chapter 23, Bair is old enough to have been an established Wise One when Amys was called up for training, but can't channel:

“You have already been treated more gently than it was in my day,” Amys said in a voice like stone. “I, too, refused when called. My spear sisters broke my spears before my eyes. They took me to Bair and Coedelin bound hand and foot and wearing only my skin.”

“And a pretty little doll tucked under your arm,” Bair said dryly, “to remind you how childish you were. As I remember, you ran away nine times in the first month.”

Amys nodded grimly. “And was made to blubber like a child for each of them. I only ran away five times the second month. I thought I was as strong and hard as a woman could be. I was not smart, though; it took me half a year to learn you were stronger and harder than I could ever be, Bair. Eventually I learned my duty, my obligation to the people. As you will, Aviendha. Such as you and I, we have that obligation. You are not a child. It is time to put away dolls - and spears - and become the woman you are meant to be.” Abruptly, Egwene knew why she had felt such a kinship with Aviendha from the first, knew why Amys and the others meant her to be a Wise One. Aviendha could channel. Like herself, like Elayne and Nynaeve - and Moiraine, for that matter - she was one of those rare women who not only could be taught to channel, but who had the ability born in her, so she would touch the True Source eventually whether she knew what she was doing or not. Moiraine’s face was still, calm, but Egwene saw confirmation in her eyes. The Aes Sedai had surely known from the first time she came within arm’s reach of the Aiel woman. Egwene realized she could feel that same kinship with Amys and Melaine. Not with Bair or Seana, though. Only the first two could channel; she was sure of it. And now she could sense the same in Moiraine. It was the first time she had ever felt that.

 

Not only is Bair old, she's the oldest Wise One in her clan. That seems remarkable given the number of Wise Ones that can channel, and that there are only twelve (12) Aiel clans total (excluding the Jenn). From tSR, Chapter 28:

“The world is changing,” Gaul said quietly. “Rhuarc, and Jheran, my own clan chief - the Wise Ones, too - they tried to hide it, but they were uneasy when they sent us across the Dragonwall searching for He Who Comes With the Dawn. I think perhaps the change will not be what we have always believed. I do not know how it will be different, but it will be. The Creator put us in the Three-fold Land to shape us as well as to punish our sin, but for what have we been shaped?” He shook his head suddenly, ruefully. “Colinda, the Wise One of Hot Springs Hold, tells me I think too much for a Stone Dog, and Bair, the eldest Wise One of the Shaarad, threatens to send me to Rhuidean when Jheram dies whether I want to go or not. Beside all of that, Perrin, what does the color of a man’s eyes matter?”

 

Just reinforcing that she's old, from FoH, chapter 5:

Then Bair laughed. "You always said you did not need a husband and did not want one. I have buried three, and would not mind another. They are very useful when the night is cold."

 

 

 

Here's a hole in my theory, but given that Sorilea is probably pushing 300-400 it could still work, from FoH, Chapter 23:

Sorilea shifted her shawl, muttering about girls touching swords, even wrapped in blankets, and about having a sharp word with "young Bair."

 

From the aMoL prologue:

"On, don't you start too. You're one of us now, Aviendha, but I'm still old enough to have tended your grandmother when she was a child."

"Then it is much better than I go than another. It should be the strongest of us who does this."

Aviendha stopped herself from raising an eyebrow. Bair was as tough as good leather, but the other Wise Ones weren't exactly flower petals.

 

Why is Bair so tough? Because she lost the ability to channel but rolled with the punches. All that being said, the biggest cons to this theory are Sorilea's "young Bair" reference and the fact that Bair should be aware that Damer restored Irgain, Ronaille and Sashalle's (Aes Sedai stilled by Rand at Dumai's Well) ability to channel while they were in Aiel custody (i.e., Bair would likely have asked for the same treatment had she known, not to mention poor Setalle).

 

Bair is also a dreamwalker, and with very few exceptions (Slayer / Perrin / Seana / Bair), dreamwalkers can usually channel. The strongest evidence in favor of channeling until recently is that Gaul describes her as the oldest Wise One in the Sharaad, where there must be at least 200-300 Wise Ones who can channel from that clan (given that the Shaido had close to 400), Slowing would almost certainly put a channeler as oldest (of course, Gaul might not understand that Wise Ones age slower than other people, even though Urien appeared to know this in tGH when talking with Verin).

 

Anyway, this is nothing major in the big scheme of things but figured I'd throw it out there.

[Bastor]

Hmm curious.

 

Maybe the Dark One had something to do with this?

I'm sorry but I still think the is a friend of the shadow for some reason. And I still believe she is the one to betray Cadsuane's trust.

 

 

I'm more curious to what she really will be doing. Sent via gateway to an ancient town and only one person who we are sure is of the light knows where she is. She obviously didn't consult any of the other Wise Ones.

[Hopefire]

 

I disagree.

 

1. Women can certainly have multiple husbands over the years, especially in a warlike society where said husbands can die frequently.

2. Gaul doesn't necessarily know what he's talking about. Bair might well be the most senior WO without being the eldest.

3. Bair is old, certainly, but to be old enough to have tended Aviendha's grandmother as a child just means that she's eighty to ninety years old (and could be as young as her sixties).

4. We know from Seana that Bair isn't the only Dreamer that can't channel.

 

 

[herid]

An interesting theory. Looks very solid to me. There are even more indications that Bair is very old btw. The scene when she tells Egwene about Mora (LoC, ch 15) is very interesting.

She talks of being apprentice to Mora who is a legend among the Aiel and the other Wise Ones present (including Amys who is quite old herself) don't seem to have known her personally.

 

@Hopefire I agree on 4 but not on 1-3. Sentinel78 gave multiple references to the fact that Bair is very old. Each one separately might possibly be a mistake but not when taken all together. When there are many references in the books saying that Bair is very old then it means just that - that she is really old, not that all those references are wrong or misinterpreted.

[yoniy0]

Yes, well, we know that Bair is older than Amys. The question becomes whether or not she'd have to be unnaturally old, and I believe the only indication of that would be if she was truly the eldest WO of the Shaarad Aiel. If that's a mistake, I can see everything else as consistent with a very old non-channeler.

 

Someone should really ask Maria about that.

[Lisa Campbell]

Despite being married to Rhuarc, Amys is not young or even middle-aged. She has fine wrinkles around her eyes according to Egwene in TSR?, and going by the Kin, just that much shows great age for a Channeler.

[fuzz1717]

Despite being married to Rhuarc, Amys is not young or even middle-aged. She has fine wrinkles around her eyes according to Egwene in TSR?, and going by the Kin, just that much shows great age for a Channeler.

 

Perhaps because the wise ones do not channel as much as AS, they slow... slower? or they age faster, but still slower than usual. This whole thread begs the question: if Bair used to be able to channel, how did she get stilled? The only plausable explanation is that she stilled herself while holding too much of the OP, as the Aiel did not seem to know how to make circles prior to meeting the AS and it seems like in Aiel culture Wise Ones are far too respected to be purposefully stilled.

[elric]

Bair – b. 919-929 NE, 70-80

Bair “had to be seventy or eighty” (Lord of Chaos, Courage To Strengthen).

 

from

http://13depository.blogspot.co.il/2002/03/ages-of-characters.html

[TLHansum]

Bair – b. 919-929 NE, 70-80

Bair “had to be seventy or eighty” (Lord of Chaos, Courage To Strengthen).

 

from

http://13depository....characters.html

 

That quote wasnt from Omni though, it was from Egwene's perspective. She's guessing

[Sid]

I remember the thought of Gaul's comment sounding iffy when I first read it, but the age thing hadn't really been completely established at that point in the story. It's strange it never stood out in re-reads, but there it is.

 

One thing to consider is that Gaul is in fact a male, and we see how much females share with males. He might be going by a false assumption, since the WO hierarchy isn't easy to figure out even from someone as close to it as Egwene. All he has to go by is observation. She looks the oldest, and every other Wise One in the clan does what she tells them to do. Asking about such things is probably treated much like a Two Rivers man meddling in Women's Circle business.

[elric]

btw Eldest dont neccesery meen Oldest

 

it seem to me more like Elder type of title , which is more about authority and respect then of age.

[Sharaman]

Interesting but no direct evidence. Amys is middle-aged by normal standards. She and Rhuarc have children around Egwene's age.

Avi=18-20; Her grandmother could be 60-65. Bair could be 70-75 and baby sat her grandmom while she was a teenager. (EDIT) She could have been 40-ish and trained Amys who would have been 18-20 also when she was forcibly conscripted.

Also I think RJ was trying to establish the fact that non-channelers could dreamwalk without any other special powers when he introduced Seana and Bair.

Gaul's take can be discounted - he would be going by respect accorded and apparent age rather than actual age.

Incidentally given that Sorilea is weak in the power, she's probably not that old since longevity is directly proportional to OP strength (in the absence of binders). Maybe she's just in the 150-200 range or even less.

[yoniy0]

I don't think it's as clean cut as Gaul simply being wrong. The Aiel share some TR properties, but they don't believe in hiding knowledge unless it's necessary. Gaul would probably get the answer that "Bair was right" in this or that instance or that she "has the most ji".

Still, there's no other way to reconcile what we know other than (a) it's a mistake, or (b) she used to be able to channel.

 

btw Eldest dont neccesery meen Oldest

It has overtones, but I believe being oldest is a strict requirement nonetheless. A quick search seems to imply the Internet is in agreement with me. Am I wrong?

[elric]

dictionary:

eld·er ¹ play_w2("E0068600") (ldr)

adj.

1. Greater than another in age or seniority.

2. Superior to another or others, as in rank.

n.

1. An older person.

2. An older, influential member of a family, tribe, or community.

3. One of the governing officers of a church, often having pastoral or teaching functions.

4. Mormon Church A member of the higher order of priesthood.

 

wikipedia:

The term Elder (or its equivalent in another language) is used in several different countries and organizations to indicate a position of authority. This usage is usually derived from the notion that the oldest members of any given group are the wisest, and are thus the most qualified to rule, provide counsel or serve the said group in some other capacity

 

Senator: in the Senate of Rome, the senators were men. Senator comes from the Latin root sen- "old" (senex "old man"), and the senators were actually called patres (fathers)..

[yoniy0]

Dare I ask for the passage on the word 'eldest'?