Could the DO have Ilyena's soul?

[Randommer]

So, do we know if the DO can only grab the souls of his servants? I'd always sort of thought yes, but then I thought I remembered Rand/LTT at some point freaking out at the prospect of being tortured by the DO forever, so...I dunno. Maybe it's just that he can keep better 'track' of the souls marked by him? Am I forgetting about some RJ quotes here?

 

Anyway, when I was rereading EoTW recently, straight away the bit where Ishamael offers to bring Ilyena back to life jumped out at me. In theory, LTT would have known if that was straight-up impossible, and Ishy wouldn't have bothered offering it. He says, "The Great Lord of the Dark can make her live again, if you will serve him." LTT doesn't really respond; he just gets furious.

 

So, was Ishy just lying and assuming LTT didn't know much about the process? Or did the DO actually grab Ilyena's soul as a last resort / future insurance poilcy, if that would even have been possible?

[Mashiara Sedai]

I think it depends on how long the soul is able to be snatched by the Dark One. I don't think it needs to be instantaneous. I bet there's probably a window of time he's able to have access to the souls before they go off to the "waiting place."

 

Aginor and Balthamel weren't brought back until Lord of Chaos, and they died in Eye of the World. Why would the DO wait so long to put them back in bodies? I don't think Shaidar Haran's, "You were both given the best that could be taken in the Borderlands," explains much. Did they have a lack of bodies on Shayol Ghul? And then the DO waited to grab their souls until he could find "suitable" bodies?

 

Since the DO knew LTT was his enemy, I wouldn't be surprise if he grabbed Ilyena's soul. But, perhaps at that time--right after the sealing of the Bore--the DO's powers were diminished and he couldn't access souls?

[herid]

 

Firstly, in principle the DO can grab any soul at all according to RJ.

Question

 

A man asked if the Dark One can resurrect anyone after death.

Robert Jordan

 

RJ answered that, yes, the Dark One can resurrect any soul, but probably doesn't want to bring back someone who hates him.

If the DO can transmigrate any soul it means he can grab any soul. (Presumably that includes Rand btw when he dies unless it's by balefire or Fain is involved or something of that nature). But it's pretty clear that there is a time limit of some sort, else the DO could just hold on indefinitely to a everybody he could get his hands on including all the heroes of the Horn, Ilyena and whoever.

It's not clear how long the DO can keep the souls he takes though. He seemed to have held Balthamel and Aginor for some months. But it wouldn't be centuries, I'm sure. Also, RJ indicated in other interviews that distance to Shayol Ghul also plays a role in who he can grab and perhaps the strength of the seals does too.

 

Matt Hatch

 

He doesn't have access to all souls to be able to grab any soul?

Robert Jordan

 

No, no, no. Because of the Bore and the fact that the bore is best perceived, the Bore doesn't really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, it's simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere, or did, and uh, that's, when you know, Rahvin died, Rahvin is balefired out of time, slain out of time, cannot be reached, gone. Be'lal, (names someone else).

[Entreri]

I would say because the Bore is open Shai'tan has access to the souls. According to RJ, distance limit on it. Otherwise, he would gobble up all the souls of the Light, game over.

[Randommer]

It seems like the general consensus is 'possible but unlikely', which is sort of the conclusion I came to about it. Honestly, I don't really expect it to play a part in AMoL or anything; the only real foreshadowing I can think of to do with it would be the times Lews Therin thought about how he'd 'let the world burn to hear her laugh again' or whatever. So I don't think it's very likely; it would just be a pretty cool twist.

[herid]

While I don't believe Ilyena's soul will figure in AMOL, the question as pertaining to Rand rather than Ilyena is quite relevant. There is pretty much a general consensus that Rand will die and then somehow come back to life before finishing the LB. The question is why wouldn't the DO grab his soul after he dies and just hold it. He doesn't have to transmigrate him or anything. Apparently, he can hold a soul for a pretty long time, months for sure as he did with Aginor and Balthamel. But it's quite clear that the LB won't last months but rather days. So how is this going to work then?

[Suttree]

This has probably been discussed before but while recently rereading the scene of the fight between Ishy and Rand at the end of tEoTW I realized that I never figured out what exactly was the nature of the figure of Kari Al'Thor that makes a brief appearance there. I've assumed before that it is simply a TAR creation like all the other things Ishy conjures up in that scene. But then why does she react positively to Rand killing her?

Rand’s scream echoed hers. The void boiled in his mind. His sword was in his hand. Not the heron-mark blade, but a blade of light, a blade of the Light. Even as he raised it, a fiery white bolt shot from the point, as if the blade itself had reached out. It touched the nearest Fade, and blinding candescence filled the chamber, shining through the Halfmen like a candle through paper, burning through them, blinding his eyes to the scene.

From the midst of the brilliance, he heard a whisper. “Thank you, my son. The Light. The blessed Light.”

--tEoTW, ch 51

 

This was a great find by Herid. I had totally forgot about that last sentence. To me that makes it clear that the DO had Kari's soul, if that is the case no reason he couldn't have had Ilyena's as well.

[herid]

I'm not sure about that, Suttree. The fight between Rand and Ishy at the end of tEoTW takes place either in TAR or in Ishy's dream. It's not clear which but it's clear that it's one or the other. I don't think it matters which as RJ hasn't worked out the distinction between the two by then.

Whether this was TAR or Ishy's dream I don't see how Kari's soul got in there. Only Heroes of the Horn reside in TAR. And the implied idea that her dying there is a good thing is contradicted by later revelations that death in TAR is the final death of a soul. I really don't know what to make of this. Is this an early bookism?

[Randommer]

Huh I'd completely forgotten about that Kari thing. That is interesting. I see no reason why it couldn't be her - the fact that heroes of the horn and wolves' souls end up in TAR shows that souls can exist there. I'd say it's just that others' souls don't normally go there, rather than that they can't. It's not exactly clear what Rand does in the end either; he may have just set her free rather can killed her, judging by the strange phrase 'a blade of light, a blade of the Light'. Maybe it only hurt Shadowspawn; it doesn't really sound like balefire. Does it even hit Kari? Either that, or she might have just been glad to be free anyway. Or it could have been Ishy or someone who was posing as her messing with Rand's head more.

 

As to Rand himself, I always sort of thought that the HotH must have been somehow immune to being held by the DO, or the others rescue them or something. Otherwise there must have been a few times in the past when he could have nabbed some of them. For instance didn't Birgitte die in the War of Power? Or do we just know she was around then?

[herid]

Huh I'd completely forgotten about that Kari thing. That is interesting. I see no reason why it couldn't be her - the fact that heroes of the horn and wolves' souls end up in TAR shows that souls can exist there.

Well, Birgitte and Hopper seem to imply that they can not but perhaps.

I'd say it's just that others' souls don't normally go there, rather than that they can't. It's not exactly clear what Rand does in the end either; he may have just set her free rather can killed her, judging by the strange phrase 'a blade of light, a blade of the Light'. Maybe it only hurt Shadowspawn; it doesn't really sound like balefire. Does it even hit Kari? Either that, or she might have just been glad to be free anyway.

that's a good idea. I didn't think of that for some reason.

Or it could have been Ishy or someone who was posing as her messing with Rand's head more.

that's what I thought at first but the fact that she thanks Rand at the end speaks against it.

As to Rand himself, I always sort of thought that the HotH must have been somehow immune to being held by the DO, or the others rescue them or something. Otherwise there must have been a few times in the past when he could have nabbed some of them. For instance didn't Birgitte die in the War of Power? Or do we just know she was around then?

That's what I thought too but RJ's quote in my first response above says that the DO can transmigrate any soul without any qualifiers. and if he can transmigrate any soul it means he can grab any soul. That's why I don't believe he can hold souls very long. If he could he would. Birgitte for example lived many lives in this age alone and the DO never grabbed her.

[driedraspberry]

This has probably been discussed before but while recently rereading the scene of the fight between Ishy and Rand at the end of tEoTW I realized that I never figured out what exactly was the nature of the figure of Kari Al'Thor that makes a brief appearance there. I've assumed before that it is simply a TAR creation like all the other things Ishy conjures up in that scene. But then why does she react positively to Rand killing her?

Rand’s scream echoed hers. The void boiled in his mind. His sword was in his hand. Not the heron-mark blade, but a blade of light, a blade of the Light. Even as he raised it, a fiery white bolt shot from the point, as if the blade itself had reached out. It touched the nearest Fade, and blinding candescence filled the chamber, shining through the Halfmen like a candle through paper, burning through them, blinding his eyes to the scene.

From the midst of the brilliance, he heard a whisper. “Thank you, my son. The Light. The blessed Light.”

--tEoTW, ch 51

 

This was a great find by Herid. I had totally forgot about that last sentence. To me that makes it clear that the DO had Kari's soul, if that is the case no reason he couldn't have had Ilyena's as well.

 

What I don't understand is why not take hold of LTT's soul then? I mean, he wasn't killed by balefire so why didn't DO snatch his soul when he died, along with Ilyena's...

[kght22]

What I don't understand is why not take hold of LTT's soul then? I mean, he wasn't killed by balefire so why didn't DO snatch his soul when he died, along with Ilyena's...

a thought i would have, but if so why not grab any hero of the horn's soul. i don't know wtf when it comes to the souls that the do can grab, but it is clear that he cannot just grab and hold a horn soul, or else he would do so. that is not to say that he cant grab their soul, it is further evidence that there is a limit on how long he can hold a soul. of course it is really evidence that something is going on that we don't know about yet, or maybe ever, but it is an example.

[FarShainMael]

There's a comment by Moiraine in EotW41 that may have a bearing on this:

 

"If the Lord of the Grave has gained as much freedom to touch the Pattern as I fear, he can reach you dead more easily than alive, now."

 

So perhaps It could not grab souls before because the Pattern was whole. Now with the Pattern unravelling the DO can get through to do the deed.

 

However, we are told that the DO has a 'window of opportunity' to take a soul when a person dies, and that window is too narrow to allow the DO to take a balefired soul unless the amount of balefire used is very small:

 

http://www.theorylan...vmain.php?i=4#3

 

This seems to indicate that the DO can't reach into the domain the souls inhabit (T'A'R or whatever); It has to get them in transit. But once It has them, I don't see why there would be any sort of time limit. I suppose some brave soul could go in there and attempt a rescue, in the style of Orpheus and Eurydice!

 

Do we know how long ago Kari died? Could the DO know she was the Dragon Reborn's mother and so grabbed her on spec?

[herid]

There's a comment by Moiraine in EotW41 that may have a bearing on this:

 

"If the Lord of the Grave has gained as much freedom to touch the Pattern as I fear, he can reach you dead more easily than alive, now."

 

So perhaps It could not grab souls before because the Pattern was whole. Now with the Pattern unravelling the DO can get through to do the deed.

That's a great find! This sounds like the most reasonable explanation I've seen.

 

 

However, we are told that the DO has a 'window of opportunity' to take a soul when a person dies, and that window is too narrow to allow the DO to take a balefired soul unless the amount of balefire used is very small:

 

http://www.theorylan...vmain.php?i=4#3

 

This seems to indicate that the DO can't reach into the domain the souls inhabit (T'A'R or whatever); It has to get them in transit. But once It has them, I don't see why there would be any sort of time limit. I suppose some brave soul could go in there and attempt a rescue, in the style of Orpheus and Eurydice!

 

Do we know how long ago Kari died? Could the DO know she was the Dragon Reborn's mother and so grabbed her on spec?

Rand hardly remembers Kari so she must have died when he was quite young, maybe 3-4 years old. I don't think we have any better info than that. But the DO could not know of any connection between her and Rand when she died. Firstly, she wasn't really Rand's mother. And second, if the DO did know he would send somebody to the Two Rivers much sooner than he did. as far as the DO being able to hold souls indefinitely,

the following comment by RJ suggests that there are time limits on how long the DO can keep a soul before transmigration. if that is the case the time he can simply hold onto souls is definitely limited.

 

Week 3 Question (Matt Hatch)

 

There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

Robert Jordan

 

 

There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately—that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death—but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the Pattern.

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.

[driedraspberry]

 

What I don't understand is why not take hold of LTT's soul then? I mean, he wasn't killed by balefire so why didn't DO snatch his soul when he died, along with Ilyena's...

a thought i would have, but if so why not grab any hero of the horn's soul. i don't know wtf when it comes to the souls that the do can grab, but it is clear that he cannot just grab and hold a horn soul, or else he would do so. that is not to say that he cant grab their soul, it is further evidence that there is a limit on how long he can hold a soul. of course it is really evidence that something is going on that we don't know about yet, or maybe ever, but it is an example.

 

DO would definitely have reason to capture HotH souls, but then I wonder if he did would the wheel simply use another person to take over their role in the pattern.

 

Could it be that the window of oppertunity is generally shorter for HotH because they get sent to TAR?

[FarShainMael]

There's a comment by Moiraine in EotW41 that may have a bearing on this:

 

"If the Lord of the Grave has gained as much freedom to touch the Pattern as I fear, he can reach you dead more easily than alive, now."

 

So perhaps It could not grab souls before because the Pattern was whole. Now with the Pattern unravelling the DO can get through to do the deed.

That's a great find! This sounds like the most reasonable explanation I've seen.

 

 

However, we are told that the DO has a 'window of opportunity' to take a soul when a person dies, and that window is too narrow to allow the DO to take a balefired soul unless the amount of balefire used is very small:

 

http://www.theorylan...vmain.php?i=4#3

 

This seems to indicate that the DO can't reach into the domain the souls inhabit (T'A'R or whatever); It has to get them in transit. But once It has them, I don't see why there would be any sort of time limit. I suppose some brave soul could go in there and attempt a rescue, in the style of Orpheus and Eurydice!

 

Do we know how long ago Kari died? Could the DO know she was the Dragon Reborn's mother and so grabbed her on spec?

Rand hardly remembers Kari so she must have died when he was quite young, maybe 3-4 years old. I don't think we have any better info than that. But the DO could not know of any connection between her and Rand when she died. Firstly, she wasn't really Rand's mother. And second, if the DO did know he would send somebody to the Two Rivers much sooner than he did.

 

Good point.

 

as far as the DO being able to hold souls indefinitely,

the following comment by RJ suggests that there are time limits on how long the DO can keep a soul before transmigration. if that is the case the time he can simply hold onto souls is definitely limited.

 

Week 3 Question (Matt Hatch)

 

There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

Robert Jordan

 

 

There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately—that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death—but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the Pattern.

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.

 

The only time limit mentioned here, though, is the limit on securing a soul. RJ doesn't say anything about how long the interval can be between securing a soul and inserting it into a new body. Though he does, of course, say there are 'a few other limits' so there's wiggle room there.

 

One such limit might be the effect on the secured soul of being in the DO's clutches. I would imagine their sanity wouldn't survive long under such conditions...

 

BTW, something that's bothered me for a while is the health of the new body, which RJ mentions in this quote. By definition, a dead body is not healthy enough to retain its own soul. How does the DO get round that? A quick bit of TP Healing, perhaps?

[herid]

Yes, that last quote I gave doesn't say explicitly that the time the DO can hold souls is limited but it does hint at it. There is a mentioning of other limits he doesn't want to discuss and also the fact that he goes on about trouble with securing a healthy body for transmigration seems to point in that direction too. If the DO could hold souls indefinitely there would be no rush and he could just wait as long as he has to to get those bodies.

BTW, something that's bothered me for a while is the health of the new body, which RJ mentions in this quote. By definition, a dead body is not healthy enough to retain its own soul. How does the DO get round that?

I have a feeling that this is not the kind of question RJ wanted to dwell on.

[Knivy]

You dont have to be dead to be soulless... Isnt that what the darkbat's kiss does, remove your soul? Even if removing the soul kills you, im sure the DO could do it simultaneously, keeping the body alive.

[Suttree]

You dont have to be dead to be soulless... Isnt that what the darkbat's kiss does, remove your soul? Even if removing the soul kills you, im sure the DO could do it simultaneously, keeping the body alive.

 

It doesn't kill you. Remember that Ogier that made it out of the ways with no soul.

[Knivy]

You dont have to be dead to be soulless... Isnt that what the darkbat's kiss does, remove your soul? Even if removing the soul kills you, im sure the DO could do it simultaneously, keeping the body alive.

 

It doesn't kill you. Remember that Ogier that made it out of the ways with no soul.

 

That just makes it that much easier to do.

[herid]

@Kinvy and @Suttree, thanks, you are both quite right. I don't know why I thought that they have to be killed first. and there are Grey men who also have their souls (but not intelligence) removed.

[Yosarian]

As for the OP: we know that the Dark One can do things like that right now, but that might just be because the seals are so weak at the moment (several forsake mention that the Dark One can do things like that "because he's breaking free"). I think it's less likely that he could have taken Ilyena right after the Bore was sealed by Lewis Therrin.