Justice - Heron mark.

[Asmodeanisdemandread]

Why is Justice not a heron-marked blade. It's been confirmed that the sword Rand got in COT or KOD I can't remember which us Hawkwings Justice but why wouldn't it be a heron blade?

[Kamin_Majere]

To pose the question to you. Why would it be?

 

Hawkwing very well could have been a blade master(and more likely than not was), but blade master =/= great general.

 

Tactics, strategy, and inspirational bearing make a good general; not fast hands, strong wrists, and an eye for sword forms

[Asmodeanisdemandread]

First I want to ask you something. Majere as in Raistlin? I'm a huge fan of dragonlance so I totally approve.

Now back to the topic at hand, while its true a blade master doesn't automatically mean he is a general, wouldn't you assume Hawkwing was? Granted Mat can't use a sword to save his life and he is a new 'Great Captain' but be isn't conquering nations. I figure that Hawkwing, like Rand, fought his own battles and regardless of whether or not he killed one, he should have been a blademaster.

But maybe I'm giving Hawkwing too much credit. Maybe he had some Mats and Brynes too..

[Asmodeanisdemandread]

I just thought of this. Maybe at that time there weren't that many heron marked swords available and a power forged sword meant the same thing. After all Lan's isn't heron marked. And if ANYONE deserves it he does.

[Kamin_Majere]

Yeah the Majere part came from the twins of Dragonlance (a shiney new cookie for anyone that can guess the Kamin part though )

 

As to Hawkwing, yeah i would assume he was a Blade Master, but unless something goes really wrong a General/commander/king shouldnt be out in the field swatting his blade around. A whole battle could easily be lost because he was on the field proving how "awesome" he is instead of paying attention to the big picture. It would have made Hawkwing the guy that "was awesome with a sword and 'tried' to unite the entire world" instead of the man that did it.

 

As to Rand, he might be the Dragon and all, but he's not a very good general because of his tendency to try to do it himself. Luckily he has surrounded himself with great generals that can take care of the actual battles while he goes around swatting his sword around. Sometimes this is needed (like against the forsaken) but other times it is needless and with out Brashere and Mat could have easily lead to him losing more often than not. (not counting his pattern warping capability)

 

The sword is just a sword in the end, Heron Marked, Power wrought, or pitted and old; its the man that makes the blade powerful

[TootThatHorn]

Lan doesn't have herons on his blade does he? And that's the sword of Malkeiri kings, that's a whole nation of borderland kings that never had herons on their sword.

[Sid]

There's enough heron marked swords in this series already.

[herid]

I just thought of this. Maybe at that time there weren't that many heron marked swords available and a power forged sword meant the same thing. After all Lan's isn't heron marked. And if ANYONE deserves it he does.

Lan explained the history of his sword to Rand in TGH, ch 1. he also explained generally about heron marked swords there.

 

 

As to Hawkwing, yeah i would assume he was a Blade Master,

based on what? not all great generals were blademasters. Demandred for one wasn't and neither was Ishy. AFAIK. it's not mentioned anywhere that Hawkwing was one either.

Also, I remember there were a lot of debates about Justice possibly being Amalasan's sword originally on account of the dragons on its scabbard. that would likely explain the absence of a heron mark too.

[Kamin_Majere]

Did you actually read my posts or did you just key in to that partial sentence?

I said the exact same thing you did.

 

 

As to why i assume (and remember this is simply my assumption) it so, i figure he would want to master the sword for the "just in case" parts of a battle. Plus the few scraps of info we have said he did defeat some of his enemies himself (Mat's memory where Hawkwing killed him and the like)

Again tha's not saying he was or wasn't, just a personal take on it; and like all opinions are wrong until proven otherwise

[herid]

sorry, I did key in on the first phrase and didn't read much of what followed. My fault. The observation about Hawkwing defeating some of his enemies one on one is an interesting one. However, I'm not sure that Mat's memories (CoT, ch 3) actually describe those. I read it as Hawkwing finding already dying Culain on the battlefield, same as Ituralde finds Turan in tGS.

[Kamin_Majere]

No worries man, it happens

 

You might be right about the meeting. I'm almost there in my current read through so i'll have to look over it again. I thought he was speaking about being beaten first hand by hawkwing, but i can see it being just his army being beaten by hawkwings army. Always something new to learn/relearn on this series :)

[Asmodeanisdemandread]

I just thought of this. Maybe at that time there weren't that many heron marked swords available and a power forged sword meant the same thing. After all Lan's isn't heron marked. And if ANYONE deserves it he does.

Lan explained the history of his sword to Rand in TGH, ch 1. he also explained generally about heron marked swords there.

 

 

As to Hawkwing, yeah i would assume he was a Blade Master,

based on what? not all great generals were blademasters. Demandred for one wasn't and neither was Ishy. AFAIK. it's not mentioned anywhere that Hawkwing was one either.

Also, I remember there were a lot of debates about Justice possibly being Amalasan's sword originally on account of the dragons on its scabbard. that would likely explain the absence of a heron mark too.

 

I remember Lan and Rands convo in tGH but still. Sword of the Malkeri Kings aside he should deserve it. That was my point, not that his sword was marked. And it doesn't say that ishy and dem aren't afaik. And doesn't élan ask lews about "taking that tame sport called swords and learning to kill with it"? It would make sense that they were the first two blademasters. Just sayin..

[herid]

I remember Lan and Rands convo in tGH but still. Sword of the Malkeri Kings aside he should deserve it. That was my point, not that his sword was marked. And it doesn't say that ishy and dem aren't afaik. And doesn't élan ask lews about "taking that tame sport called swords and learning to kill with it"?

that was Be'lal, not Ishy. Neither Ishy nor Demandred are ever seen with swords. When Ishy fights Rand in TGH he uses a staff not a sword. As Moridin he never has a sword either.

[Asmodeanisdemandread]

Herid you're right. My bad.

On a side note that makes me wonder. If LTT could channel why learn the sword at all?? Same question Lan and Bashere asked Rand. Thoughts?

[Asmodeanisdemandread]

Another side note. Moridin has the TP he wouldn't need a sword. Still not proof that him (ishy) and dem never used them. Besides if dem was second in the AoL only to LTT he would have to be proficient in the sword. Unless that was his only shortcoming, which I doubt.

[Asmodeanisdemandread]

@kamin. So if Hawkwing was a blademaster as you said you assume he was why is Justice not heronmarked? Or is it because he already had it when he became one?

[Asmodeanisdemandread]

Also if Hawkwing was so wary of the AS as to not allow them to heal him on his deathbed would he not have discarded a power wrought blade? I wouldn't buy I don't recall that question being asked before.

I don't really think this has any bearing on the series just things I think about and the main reason I joined the boards

[Knivy]

He distrusted the AS, not the power. His views werent like the Whitecloaks, he disliked the people, not the power.

[Asmodeanisdemandread]

With ishy whispering in his ear I bet it was intentional

[Luckers]

Just a point guys, but you all seem to be forgetting that Justice does not originate with Hawkwing, thus hawkwing's skill with a blade has no impact on whether or not Justice would be marked with a heron. Justice originates with some random soldier during the War of the Shadow--and he (or she) evidently was not a blademaster--at least not at the time that the blade was forged.

 

From there power-wrought blades irrespective of how they are marked are rare and valued. There might be those shallow enough to pass one up because it lacked a heron mark, but Hawkwing seems neither that vain or that foolish.

[Suttree]

He distrusted the AS, not the power. His views werent like the Whitecloaks, he disliked the people, not the power.

 

True, Ishy thoroughly poisoned him against them. He went from having them as governors and in positions of power throughout his empire to putting a bounty on their heads and refusing to be healed on his death bed.

[DaoineSidhe]

Another point: Artur Hawkwing was around approximately 1,000 years ago. Why assume that heron-marked meant blademaster at that time, as it does now? Originally Heron-marked swords were the swords worn by generals during the War of the Power, not a status symbol of their quality of swordplay. Because they were only given to generals, they were rarer than other swords. Because they were power-wrought, they were better than any swords made post-Breaking. Over time, at some point, that rarity of these swords ended up being a status symbol of the quality of the swordsmanship of the wearer. However, we are never told when this happens. Think of the things that have changed in our world in the last 1,000 years. To assume that in Hawkwing's time a heron-marked swords meant that same thing it does now 1,000 years later is a bit of a leap. That isn't to say that it might have meant that then, but just to point out that it may not have meant that yet.

 

Also, Hawkwing, as the greatest conqueror in Radland history, may have preferred to have the unique sword of "Justice" which has strange creatures on it, rather than just having the same sword as any "blademaster". Regardless of his skill, either Justice or a heron-marked sword would be a symbol of status. Having a truly unique sword which even has its own name is much more meaningful in building up his status as rightful ruler of Randland than having the sword of a blademaster.

[Sid]

The fact that there are blademasters on the Seanchan continent with heron marked swords alone shows the concept was already established in Hawkwing's time. Either Luthair brought them over with him or they were already there.

[DaoineSidhe]

That point does seem to indicate that heron-marked swords already meant "blademaster" in Hawkwing's time, Sid. Although there are other possible ways that it could have evolved differently, Occam's Razor points to your reasoning. That said, given my second point, I would think Hawkwing would still prefer "Justice" to a heron-marked sword.

[Morden]

Heron mark does not always mean it is power wrought, there simply arent enough power wrought swords left in the world to give to all the blademasters, so many are just high quality steel. Lan's sword is power wrought and thus just as good as a heron marked power wrought sword, which leads me to think that there were quite a lot of power wrought swords that werent heron marked, but that might have gone without as much notice.

 

Its a status symble, little more than that, like a Ferrari badge on a Ferrari. You could take the badge off it and it'd still be as fast...